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[Column] Warhammer 40.000: Eternal Crusade: Cruising the Forums - The Cash Shop Debate
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Behaviour has stated on several occasions that cash shop variants of common in-game weapons and armor will largely be alternate skins, and occasionally slightly rearranged statistics. Trading range for rate of fire, trading ammo capacity for reload time, things of that nature. No pure bonuses that are not balanced by some sort of offsetting penalty. Some players will argue that people will learn to compensate for the penalties or disadvantages, my counter-argument is that learning to compensate is called skill. Skilled players will counter the negatives and therefore benefit from the positives. Isn't that really “Skill to Win”?
Read more of Terry O'Brien's Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade - Cruising the Forums - The Cash Shop Debate.
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well let's hope they stick to skins and co.
APB claimed the same, and then some day, they had gold weapons, totaly screwing up balance.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
it is pvp game & I am 100% sure it have to be P2W at end ,I am ok with it,anyway I cant grind 12 hours in game at day,I grind RL money half day
make me happy; http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-838ZD08EAMNDC
~I am Many~
Point taken, I will pass it along ASAP.
Thanks
T
Pay to Win is simple.
Any time that you pay real world money for something virtual, it is pay to win. It doesn matter if it is a virtual weapon, virtual currency, virtual costume or virtual content. The simple act of paying real work money, and recieving something virtual in exchange is what makes it P2W.
As such all commercial games are P2W, and should not try to argue against this. What they SHOULD be stating, is how they are affecting the game by their commercialization. They should just be clear what they are selling, and let the players decide if that is acceptable. The problem is that they try to hide it under the guise of 'we are not pay to win', and in doing so, try to hide what they are doing.
Let me give you an example. If they are selling gun skins (change the appearane of a gun), they should be clear that they are selling vanity items. However, they try to confuse the issues by selling the already skinned gun (with stats) and calling it a vanity item. One was just a visual change (which has clear status value). The other uses this visual change to hid the fact that they sold the gun (which created functionality and game balance).
If more companies accepted that they were P2W, and clearly expressed what they were selling to their customers. There would be less complaints about it being misleading.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Or an "Outcast Ranger", as opposed to a Ranger (hero class)?
All the vehicles offered in the Shop, thus far, will eventually be available to all players, according to Miguel himself. All the Founders Shop "classes" will be variants of the standard hero classes availalbe to all player, with less customization, but with unique skins. This is also coming directly from Miguel.
The "real issue" I am trying to investigate is to discover how many variants of Pay To Win are floating around the 'net, how popularly accepted each one is, or isn't, and how my own definition fits into the overall scheme of things.
I certainly didn't intend it as a 'red herring"; what is it you think I am trying to distract people from?
Are you defining "essential parts of the army" based on the table-top game? If so, then I remind you that Eteranl Crusade is it's own game, only connected to the table top by a shared collection of Lore. It will not, and never was intended to, play the same as the tabletop, particularly in light of the table top's diverse and myriad collection of units.
And I agree with you that it's too early to tell if what is being offered is actually Pay To Win, but what I am looking for here is intelligent discussion of what PtW means to different people, and as a result, how Eternal Crusade can avoid falling into that particular trap.
I hope that I have made my intentions regarding this particular article more clear, and dispelled any concerns you might have had about those intentions. I am sorry you felt like I was trying to put something over on you, I assure that I am not.
T
I think too many people lost sight of what a game is and instead only want to win. That if they lose no matter what they will claim P2W. People go so far as to even call everything P2W to explain why they don't have fun in a game.
I know what Pay 2 Win looks like, I've played games that were strictly Pay 2 power your character. Like Wrath of Heroes, without the upgrades the heroes wouldn't stand a chance vs the people who geared up.
When it comes to EC I see it as pay 2 expand your character. I'm not so worried on what the items will do, I have good faith in Behavior to keep the items balanced. I would worry more about how much you can unlock outside of the Rogue Trader. If Rogue Trader is a few items, ratio of 1:4 RTP vs Unlock via Play per class, then it's not that big a deal if that guy has a longer range but is crap at medium to short over the normal, more well balanced on all levels guns. However, if its more like 1:1 RT to unlock via play than it will seem like people who pay more for the game than those who pay less.
I am optimistic that maybe one day they add in a way to earn RT points from playing, like sales disguised as special campaigns where you earn RTP for involvement. Like Smite offered last weekend, but more about "capture the merchant".
So buing a game is p2w unless is a phisical copy?
war 40K Eternal Crusade: refferal 4$ bonus: EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I
You are 100% wrong! Pay to win is only if you an buy something from the in game store with out grinding it out in game. The only exception to this is cosmetic gear!
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I think it's closer to the difference between a Pathfinder and a normal Ranger, but that's just semantics in any case, the point is that the Founders classes are actually just variants on the unannounced but upcoming hero classes.
Regular players having access to bikes from day one, I think they can suffer the Founders getting access to two-man bikes earlier. Like all sidegrades, the two-man bikes have their upsides and their downsides, and, while 25k points might be a little steep, those who put their money into the game early deserve some small perks for their faith.
T
doesn't this first come first serve deter ppl from purchasing access if they are late comers?
i was wanting in on this, but if there is tons of ppl in front of me why bother, they will get picked 1st and i will have bought into a beta that i never got to play.
First come-First served only applies to the alpha/beta testing, the Early Module Access is for everyone.
If you were planning on purchasing a Founder Pack only for early alpha/beta access, however, then yes, you might want to reconsider. I would bet that thousands of packs have already been sold, and I don't think they will need thousands of testers until the latter stages of testing.
Keep in mind that the game will cost $40 on release, with no extras, so a $40 Founder Pack in advance still carries plenty of bang-for-your-buck.
T
From Brent Ellison, Lead Game Designer:
"Hi everyone, we just landed back in Montreal a few hours ago and Michael told me there were concerns about the Outcast Ranger. I'll lay it all out for ya:
Why should someone who is not financially invested in the game get the same treatment as someone who is? I say free 2 play players are fluff and filler to those who actually pay to keep the game going.
This whole conversation is getting weird ... Just plain weird
Couple of thoughts on this:
Firstly, any item which has different states to another item... is a different item.
You can call it a "Bolter" all you like, but if one has an extended range, one has an extended clip, one has increased damage... they are different.
Min/Maxers and Power Levelers will pretty soon produce pages of stats showing that Bolter(Extended Clip) has a 0.51 increase in DPS over Bolter(Vanilla) but Bolter(Damage+) should be used until the player has the Fast Reload Buff... as a made up example.
Any game wiki anywhere shows exactly this sort of info along with players making up character builders which work out stats (and stat compare items) to 3 decimal places. Monte Carlo testing may not be realistic in terms of actual game outcome - but anyone can do it.
And as the equipment is different - you can debate 'skill' all you like - players will call it buffing, nerfing and P2W. Even if the nett differences are minute.
So, they are setting themselves up for a fall already.
If Bolter(Founder) is better (or worse!) in any way than Bolter(Vanilla) then it will be an on going issue for the life of the game. Ultimately - like all Devs - even though BE say they won't - they will modify stats on some items (maybe just to correct mistakes?). And as we have seen countless times before, that will open up a storm of players saying they were 'cheated' out of Founders items which they paid for.
The fact that BE don't realise this shows their huge inexperience in the genre.
As for Alpha/Beta access.
I love what BE have done here. It's about time we got back to "testing" being actual er... "testing"! and stopped selling 'testing' to people who have no intention (or idea) about actual testing.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
It is P2W if there is any direct exchange of real money for virtual goods/services. This makes all commercial games P2W. If there is no 'quid pro quo', but money is donated without any return, then it would not be P2W. I dont know of any games that operate under that model.
Cosmetics are just as much P2W as anything else. You may believe that a person with a $10k Armani suit that looks just as good as the person who picked his up at the thrift store, but most people would not... In fact some people would go as far as saying that appearance/vanity is the ONLY way to win (for them).
The whole concept of P2W is a very grey area. Technically, it's only "pay to win" if the item or benefit confers a clear advantage and can only be obtained by paying for it.
You can earn the "USOD" (Uber Sword of Doom) by buying it in the Cash Shop for $25, or you play the game for 4 months and get the sword for "free" using tokens/gold earned by playing. This is not P2W.
However, every time you encounter a player wielding a USOD in PVP, you will usually lose. That's how developers get around the P2W stigma, because the advantage is only temporary, hence they can legally claim that the game is not P2W.
Given that the average player in modern online games seldom sticks with one game for more than 3 months, many of the F2P games will be designed to exploit this fact. Tell the player there's no P2W to tempt them into the game, then let them experience the struggle of competing with fully-equipped Cash Shop Warriors.
If they whine about being pwned, smugly tell them that they can earn all the goodies by simply playing the game every day for the next 3 to 6 months. Of course, the grinders will continue to be pwned by the payers for those 3 to 6 months...
I agree with everything you said - but the quoted part is worth commenting on further:
I don't know if it's 'tactics' or just plain bad planning and lack of foresight?
I mean, many of these games seem to be developed by guys who have no clear plan and stumble about in the dark waiting for 'community feedback' to give them direction?
This Kickstarter / crowd funding thing has made it worse too. Look at Camelot Unchained as an example: as the Kickstarter went on more and more 'tiers' were added and more and more 'stretch goals'. The only problem was some of the later tiers were incompatible with the ones offered earlier. So it suggests a developer just 'making things up on the fly' - which doesn't work for MMOs. Offering islands, or space fighter ships, or guns or anything for a game that is not even fully designed is just plain dumb. The designer might be forced to make changes for any number of reasons - which is hard to do for a product you have already partially sold.
So what happens is they sell the product, then design the product, then realise they need to fix the product they designed badly because they had to include the stuff they sold - sometimes that means redesigning the product effectively undercutting the stuff they sold.
It's a bad model. It's borderline fraud.
It worries me that BE seem to be using this model.
The company that did it right was KingsIsle with Wizard 101.
They had a clear plan before anyone even knew what the project was. The whole thing was mapped out with clear goals and a set project scope. They didn't try to be everything to everyone. They listened to community feedback, but only withing the confines of their vision - there was none of this "Devs! Wouldn't it be cool if there were Mechwarriors in the game?".
As you say, they were completely up front about what was for sale and for how much. As a result - that game is still going strong 6 years later.
I hope BE get this together and don't replay the mistakes of the past... but the answer is not yet clear.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
what i know for balance, thats incluse shop items too, when you have higher rate of fire, you got decrease accuracy(more you shot than more your accuracy drop), when have more dmg maybe you have better accuracy but way to slow rate of fire...etc.
So, i dont know why is this considred "P2W"?
They are state this, all things got this example(armor,weapons...etc.)
this game is not pay to win in my perspective, because they sell different(not better) statistic weapons(and dont forget that, players are able to craft weapons too).
When you want to see a p2w example, just look at leage of angel.
(i so love how internet work, badhype on something what is not)
SOE tried to do this and failed horribly, so be careful what you wish for.