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The future of the trinnity
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
I dont understand why a lot of developers try and move away from the trinity, first GW2 and now EQN and some others too.
the trinity is a natural mechanic that just works well for MMOs. Instead of moving away from the trinnity developers should add more depth to it... And add better AI to the mobs... But mving away from the only keymechanic in MMOs that makes people play together is wrong...
i am looking forward to the first game withouth a true dps class, where everyone gets another role on top of dps...
- tank
- healer
- cc
- buffer
- debuffer
-puller
- cleanser
just give every class one or more of these main roles.... And allow everyone to dps on top of that.... And make all of those roles required for hard content
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
There is nothing wrong with looking for a different combat system. Making the AI respond to different mechanics other than solely a 'I looked mean at you' can't be bad. I enjoy the holy trinity setup but that doesn't mean I won't like something else.
Although, GW2 system was abhorrent.
I am not against trying different things then the trinity but making every class able to do everything to me doesn't work as it just makes it where everything feels the same.
I quite enjoy the straight dps role.
My preference for the trinity would be a mechanics based fps type game with collisions: -
DPS
DPS
DPS
Heal
CC
CC
DPS
DPS
Heal
Heal
CC
DPS
DPS
ect, ect ect ect ect
( rotate your most 5 used skills)
Finally this stale gameplay is going out, good riddance.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
the problem with the trinity is that some companies limit it too harshly. We can have all those roles in an mmo, but if your knight/paladin class can only be used as a tank then they are doing it wrong. I love those heavy plated classes and i hate when they are limited to be a tank role.
Give more than one purpose to every class and you can keep the trinity in place and be a lot more fun than forcing X class on someone who wants to be a specific role.
EDIT: Thats why i prefer the more versatile non-trinity because im not forced to the role i dont like if i want to play X class. If more companies added that versatility to every class to fit more roles based on the build you want to make then sure i would take the trinity back.
I prefer a skill system, with the percentage of the various archetypes being decided by the player. But this seems like a reasonable exploration based on a trinity idea. Though the idea of a 'tank' being able to taunt every known race in every known language just kills immersion for me. As a magickal or super power, no problem. As a Joe Blow who usually can't actually hurt anyone anyway, it makes next to no sense.
The other aspect of the group interaction focus is that it brings in all the problems of yore associated with it. The group sitting for an hour 'Looking for X!'. 'We can't do that thing this week; Player X has exams/got sick/is missing, etc'
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Trinity is most certainly the best design,it just needs some smarts and effort by the developer.FFXI did a great job at creating diversity and yet retained the ROLE of each player,yet there was still a lot of room for improvement.
There is nothing wrong with a dps player you just need a good game design.Once again FFXI showed us glimpses of great design.Example they had MANY DPS classes but they were all unique and different.Example a Black Mage was awesome to battle melee tough mobs ,a Ranger was awesome versus Birds,others could offer various added effects to their dps classes.
In FFXI a Healer was not JUST a healer nor was any other class just doing one thing,that is what makes a great game design.
A Healer for example could cast buffs,silence magic casting enemies,cast debuffs on creatures,caste haste on dps players ect ect.Point is that some developers like to make up bs about how simple and lame a Trinity game is not because they are right but because they want to reinforce THEIR game design as being better.
Then we have AOE type classes,again they can do a LOT besides just dps.Example the Avatars in FFXI were amazing,.they had tons of dps and buffs.A Black Mage also had tremendous AOE dmg.They could do more than just aoe,they could warp players to safety,sleep adds as well as cast debuffs.
IMO devs are just real cheap and real lazy now,instead of creating a plethora of skills for each class they rather create less and allow each player access to them all,then turn around and limit them to not using them all,kind of a forwards backwards type of design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
going where... Its still the dominate mechanic in MMOs by far its not even close ...think your jumping the gun on the" going out" bit as it also still being strongly developed also..
Of course you do, because DPS is not a role, its wasted slot in group.
Thats why OP suggested to get rid of DPS, thus sharing the responsibility between whole group, not just tank and healer.
I don't think the topic is about classes but more how a game integrates an aggro system and how player interact with it. I played GW2 for a while and it didn't have a traditional trinity system.
It was just chaotic, it was like a game of survivor seeing who could stay alive long enough for those not attacked to kill a lion.
Exactly what group in what game are you talking about? Or are you just trying to troll up an argument?
This right here.
Give me multiple ways to play each class so i can play the class i enjoy instead of being forced to play another class because it has the role i prefer.
My opinion there is no point in having classes if you're not going to have defined roles. I like glass cannon type classes. It brings favor IMO. If you don't have classes with defined roles you're going to have to make the other roles weaker and more generic or have overpowered classes.
Trinity was the first MMO combat mechanic and showed up in Meridian 59 already, it do work and is a pretty nice system but you seems to think that the first system is the best and only way.
It isn't and trying out new things is a must if the genre wants to live for another 18 years.
What is important is that whatever system you uses have group mechanics, so that you need to work together to achieve victory.
Let's face it, the trinity have been on a downslide for a long time, it have become simpler and roles like CC and support are almost completely removed in modern trinity games. EQs trinity was way more complex than the trinity of any current game.
You could try to turn the clock back and make the trinity more complex again but it have already been done, there are other more fun ways to handle combat than tanking which is the main point of trinity combat. Todays AIs have evolved since Meridian and now you can make bosses that fight a lot smarter and act more like sentient beings than back then.
I think that is the way to proceed, PvE and PvP combat should be made closer to eachother instead of making the bosses dumber than doornails with a zillion hitpoints.
I don't mind if you keep the healers, DPS and support roles at all, but the tanks needs to go or at least be forced to use body blocking, positioning and similar tactics to make combat more fun.
In pen and paper RPGs you don't have any tanks (well, besides the horrible WOW ripoff that is D&D 4th ed that is), we do use figurines so that positioning matters and combat there is way deeper than it ever was in a trinity game, the mobs really try to win there instead of just keeping the fight go on for a long time while you rotate skills.
Trinity was a great run but it is time to figure out something new and better.
It depends on what you mean by trinity. If you are referring to taunt/tank-based combat, there is nothing natural about that, and it only works with mob mechanics that compliment it. This becomes evident the minute you put that trinity into PvP. Keeping that means keeping the same idiotic mobs. If you are referring to offense/defense/support, then you don't have to worry about those aspects going away because they are an inherent part of any conflict scenario.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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Try not to link roles with classes. A class can be anything, a role performs a specific task during an encounter.
I don't agree, the important thing if you use classes is that each class brings something important and unique to the combat (and for that matter to none combat as well). Having many very similar classes suck no matter what mechanics you use, it is better to have few classes with a lot of customization than 24 that really are just a few classes that gets mirrored.
As for GW2 being chaotic, that is true when you fight world bosses and open world events but that is to be expected in any game where you bring a random or specific PUG together, games that have Raids you just can jump into have similar problems. In none story dungeons and fractals that would get you killed fast though, there is still a group dynamic and if everyone just play by themselves you will fail.I am not saying that GW2s group dynamic is perfect or anything, it could use a lot of more work but there is group dynamic in it, at least in harder content.
First most everyone who pvps knows that the trinity isn't the best as in a trinity based system then healers are normally first targeted, but at the same point this helps make it a little more challenging.
The current way some games (GW2, ESO) have went with the removal of the trinity causes there to be to much of sameness. Almost all characters are the same in these games.
Now I know that in most games with the trinity there will be the "best" builds for them but in the end if you run a dps build that is not the "top" build you can still be effective, same with healer & tank.
I think having games that expand on the trinity, say maybe take some cc form tank and give it to dps or lower dps and give it to the tank or maybe even add a new role to it so like you could have tank, dps, healer & cc.
Anyway the trinity has been successful and even though GW2 still has a fairly good population the lack of trinity makes it boring.
Exactly. It is also the reason that trinity based (or tank based) games always are less than what they should be in PvP.They ether have 2 more or less seperate system for PvE and PvP, or they just ignore PvP altogether and try to nerf and buff classes not really intended for PvP so that it at least is playable. It is also the reason why so many MMOers just play PvE compared to other types of gamers.
A working combat mechanics needs to be fun in both playstyles unless the game only have one of them.
Personally, I'd much rather see games where you're not stuck in one particular role, you have skills from several different roles and can combine different skills into a workable build. I'm sick of games where you have to do X in order to be a worthwhile character, you have to have these skills and these spells and this gear and anything less won't do because there is only one superior build possible. I don't want superior builds, I want a ton of different, equally effective builds.
That means that my tank can heal. It means that my healer can cause damage. It means that the trinity goes away because everyone can, depending on their build, do all jobs.
But yeah, that requires thought and planning and MMO players don't want to do that. They just want to go with generic builds and a trinity structure. That's boring and doesn't allow for individuality.
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Of course but this is more about roles then class. But IMO if you're not going to have the trinity classes are worthless. Just let people be what they want to be. That is unless a developer reinvents the players interaction with AI that amounts to more then a zerg or mini-zerg.
Picture this, 25 valiant fighters taking on the giant rock boss that is about the size of a skyscraper. You have one tank who calls it a dirty name and questions it's parentage and it decides to focus on the tank for the rest of the fight. Forget that the tank can't hurt him, he insulted the boss. That is unforgivable. Enter in the healers who spam heals on the tank. The boss ignores them for the most part too, because quite frankly, it's more fun to push on an pull to open door than to push on it. Let's just say stupidity is really what you are killing, not cleverness. And then there's the DPS, all standing there spamming their most awesome spells and attacks on this skyscraper. Logic would suggest that if you could hurt this thing, then an ant surely could topple you with a single bite. But there is no logic to this, so you are going to kill this thing, eventually, mainly because it's more concerned with killing the one person that cannot kill it who is constantly being healed. That is the trinity system. It's basically a hamster wheel that eventually stops spinning due to lack of lubrication.
Why? A class is a specific way of fighting, like a ranged class with a pet or a magic user. Those classes works fine in whatever mechanics and can still be made so you can customize them a lot.
The ranger could be using bows, rifles, throwing daggers, crossbows, traps and a bunch of other weapons with specific skills and uses and the pet could be any kind of animal or for that matter a human or other sentient being with it's own customization.
The mage could have a variety of spells for damage, healing, buffs, summonings and so on.
But the thing with classes is that more isn't usually better, it just takes away possibilities for customization.
5-8 classes with high customization is my golden number, more than so and you get very similar classes that takes away part of the fun and less and there is a lot less need to play alts (which actually is fun).
Each class should also use it's own mechanics or classes is pointless. I love how the thief in GW2 have no cooldown on it's attacks and instead uses a point cost system which makes it very different to play than any other class, each class needs to have it's own ways and playing each should offer a very different experience than the others.
So then imagine your entire argument breaking down and feeling as though you made a worthless post when that warrior's taunt suddenly is magical because, you know, we have magical fireballs and healing so why not a spell to force a big ole mean baddie to attack you?