The impossible task

tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

that is all I have been looking for.

If possible can we get the entire community to say this I know that is not being fair but it would be nice

 

If I want an ESO experience I will play Darkfall which I did for a long time. I dont mind people saying Darkfall is trash and ESO is better but I do mind when people say its not possible

So... What is your point... Of course it is not impossible in theory. It is just code in the end. What people are saying is that it is practically impossible due to among other things... The fact that ESO have been made, the cost to convert it to your vision would be in the millions and if SWG is to be belived you should never do a massive gameplay change to a released title.

 

They could have done it... back before the game was released... But at this point in time it is impossible to bring your vision to live in a online Elder Scrolls game.

sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I can think of only 3 features in ES that are not in an MMO. and using Darkfall as an example I think ALL the features in ES are in Darkfall.

Darkfall is also a niche game that has a lot of features and specific implementations that most people don't care for. ..

which of course has nothing to do with the question of if its possible  or not.

Look just because Darkfall has been online longer than ESO and just because its more like ES in feature sets then ESO is doesnt mean its not possible.

 

we are only talking about possiblities here, not if its a wise choice.

Business wise, for it to happen at the level you expect to happen, it's not possible, not right now. It's not even a question of whether it's a wise choice, because that assumes a choice. No rational businessman is going to look at something like Darkfall and ever expect it to do any better than what Darkfall has with the current tools. Therefore, the only choice for that businessman is whether or not to invest in recreating the genre from scratch. Given the current climate amongst players, that isn't even much of a choice because while people clamor for change with their words, their wallets say something completely different. So we get back to the fact that while theory says it's possible to achieve the kind of success you envision, functionally it's never going to happen until someone is bold or dumb or lucky enough to break the mode of thinking that everyone on both sides of the process is stuck in. As that hasn't happened yet in over several decades, my money is that it's going to remain functionally impossible as anything but a niche product that will have it's core fans, but never really appeal to the general gaming community.

sunshadow21

Originally posted by tawess.

 

They could have done it... back before the game was released... But at this point in time it is impossible to bring your vision to live in a online Elder Scrolls game.

I would question even that. If they had made different design changes, it may or may not have come as close as ESO has, and people would still have found enough reasons to not like it to keep it a niche game.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I can think of only 3 features in ES that are not in an MMO. and using Darkfall as an example I think ALL the features in ES are in Darkfall.

Darkfall is also a niche game that has a lot of features and specific implementations that most people don't care for. ..

which of course has nothing to do with the question of if its possible  or not.

Look just because Darkfall has been online longer than ESO and just because its more like ES in feature sets then ESO is doesnt mean its not possible.

 

we are only talking about possiblities here, not if its a wise choice.

Business wise, for it to happen at the level you expect to happen, it's not possible, not right now. It's not even a question of whether it's a wise choice, because that assumes a choice. No rational businessman is going to look at something like Darkfall and ever expect it to do any better than what Darkfall has with the current tools. Therefore, the only choice for that businessman is whether or not to invest in recreating the genre from scratch. Given the current climate amongst players, that isn't even much of a choice because while people clamor for change with their words, their wallets say something completely different. So we get back to the fact that while theory says it's possible to achieve the kind of success you envision, functionally it's never going to happen until someone is bold or dumb or lucky enough to break the mode of thinking that everyone on both sides of the process is stuck in. As that hasn't happened yet in over several decades, my money is that it's going to remain functionally impossible as anything but a niche product that will have it's core fans, but never really appeal to the general gaming community.

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

we are starting to venture away from 'is it possible' and into 'is it profitable'

My issue is clarity. If enough people go around saying 'its not possible' when what they really mean is 'its not profitable except for a nitch market' then a lot of people will grow up thinking these things (that I personally enjoy) are technically not possible at all.

This has to be addressed and its why I am hear, no other reason.

ohioastro

This poster, by their own admission, is arguing about a game that they don't play.  Judging from their comments, they also aren't terribly familiar with the ES series.  For example, contrary to their claims, class design was incredibly important in all ES games through Morrowind, also a factor in Oblivion,and they were only removed in one game (Skyrim.) 

And, when pinned down, the goalposts flop all over the place - and the entire point is to pick an argument with a second-hand quote by a game designer?  Lock 'er down, and move on.

sunshadow21

Originally posted by Loke666

What I can tell is that overuse of phasing and copy-paste dungeons were a bad idea, a really bad idea. The VR levels were not that great either but the phasing needs to be fixed and the sooner the better.

Whether or not they take the next required steps is of course the key issue at this point, and will determine how long I pay attention to the game. Still, they at least were willing to try a few things different from the standard MMO, so I am willing to give them credit for that and consider the game as a step in the right direction, at least for now. I would have preferred a bit less MMO in the game personally, but they were never going to have a WoW on their hands where every factor aligned perfectly to make what at it's core is a thoroughly average game into one time phenomenon that shook the entire industry, and not entirely for the better.

tawess

I have no doubt it would have been a horrible game... but you could with deep enough pockets and enough time done it. Fortunatley the people a Zenimax was smarter then that and choose to do something that is actually viable.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by ohioastro

This poster, by their own admission, is arguing about a game that they don't play.  Judging from their comments, they also aren't terribly familiar with the ES series.  For example, contrary to their claims, class design was incredibly important in all ES games through Morrowind, also a factor in Oblivion,and they were only removed in one game (Skyrim.) 

And, when pinned down, the goalposts flop all over the place - and the entire point is to pick an argument with a second-hand quote by a game designer?  Lock 'er down, and move on.

and as I have pointed out none of that matters.

black is black. If I say 'color is black' my views on ANYTHING WHATSOEVER...does matter. either my statement is true or it is false. As much as I would like my personal experiences and biases to change phyiscal reality it does not

tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

and as I have pointed out none of that matters.

black is black. If I say 'color is black' my views on ANYTHING WHATSOEVER...does matter. either my statement is true or it is false. As much as I would like my personal experiences and biases to change phyiscal reality it does not

Actually if you say color is black i ask you what shade and temperature, because that is important... I could also argue that black is not a color at all...

 

So yuo say black thinking it is true or false and i just flipped your entire world upside down by pointing out that there are shades to everything...

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess
I have no doubt it would have been a horrible game... but you could with deep enough pockets and enough time done it. Fortunatley the people a Zenimax was smarter then that and choose to do something that is actually viable.

there is another side subject I would like to address.

Is it possible (which many here agree with but are afraid to just say it to be done with the topic)

The other thing I prefer gamers didnt go around thinking is that its expensive because its not.

Darkfall did it on a tiny budget.

It doesnt cost more to not have static classes, it costs less.

It doesnt cost more to have skill based system, it costs less.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

and as I have pointed out none of that matters.

black is black. If I say 'color is black' my views on ANYTHING WHATSOEVER...does matter. either my statement is true or it is false. As much as I would like my personal experiences and biases to change phyiscal reality it does not

Actually if you say color is black i ask you what shade and temperature, because that is important... I could also argue that black is not a color at all...

 

So yuo say black thinking it is true or false and i just flipped your entire world upside down by pointing out that there are shades to everything...

this subject is not about shades.

Its really rather straightforward and can be quantified and prooven fairly easily.

If what you say is true then nobody who likes the game can engage in this conversation because they would have a bias.

sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

we are starting to venture away from 'is it possible' and into 'is it profitable'

My issue is clarity. If enough people go around saying 'its not possible' when what they really mean is 'its not profitable except for a nitch market' then a lot of people will grow up thinking these things (that I personally enjoy) are technically not possible at all.

This has to be addressed and its why I am hear, no other reason.

In the business world, 'is it possible?" tends to include "is it profitable?" so they are a lot closer to being the same than you are trying to make them out to be. It's also why I say that it's impossible, for now. If you're truly concerned about how future adults will react to that statement, than simply insist on the "for now" part and challenge them to find a way to make it possible. Trying to ignore the current state of affairs doesn't help anyone move forward because it means that no one is going to try to examine why it's currently impossible, and everyone will continue to complain that it hasn't happened yet with no real clue as to why. It may stay impossible due to the fact that aligning all the moving parts is akin to building the Tower of Babel; on the other hand, someone may be able to find a solution if they study the actual problems long enough. Either way, simply saying it's possible, with no modifiers to indicate what hurdles still remain to make it a reality, is just as stupid as saying it's impossible and always will be.

Kicksave321

 

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

 

I would like to see a link for this if "possible"...I know everyone is talking about the "impossible"  I really hope its not "impossible" for you to back up this statement...

hammarus

Just throw it in the hole, scrape in the dirt, and pat it down with the spade.  Walk away from this turd and never look back.  Its the best solution.

Kicksave321

Originally posted by hammarus
Just throw it in the hole, scrape in the dirt, and pat it down with the spade.  Walk away from this turd and never look back.  Its the best solution.

Are you referring to this thread or the game? 

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by hammarus
Just throw it in the hole, scrape in the dirt, and pat it down with the spade.  Walk away from this turd and never look back.  Its the best solution.

or..

just say 'yes its possible'

 

but that will never happen it appears

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

we are starting to venture away from 'is it possible' and into 'is it profitable'

My issue is clarity. If enough people go around saying 'its not possible' when what they really mean is 'its not profitable except for a nitch market' then a lot of people will grow up thinking these things (that I personally enjoy) are technically not possible at all.

This has to be addressed and its why I am hear, no other reason.

In the business world, 'is it possible?" tends to include "is it profitable?" so they are a lot closer to being the same than you are trying to make them out to be. It's also why I say that it's impossible, for now. If you're truly concerned about how future adults will react to that statement, than simply insist on the "for now" part and challenge them to find a way to make it possible. Trying to ignore the current state of affairs doesn't help anyone move forward because it means that no one is going to try to examine why it's currently impossible, and everyone will continue to complain that it hasn't happened yet with no real clue as to why. It may stay impossible due to the fact that aligning all the moving parts is akin to building the Tower of Babel; on the other hand, someone may be able to find a solution if they study the actual problems long enough. Either way, simply saying it's possible, with no modifiers to indicate what hurdles still remain to make it a reality, is just as stupid as saying it's impossible and always will be.

1. so Darkfall is profitable.

Otherwise they would not have had money to make the second one.

2. possible does not mean profitable and those who think that it does are very simply wrong and might want to consider going back to school

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Kicksave321

 

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

 

I would like to see a link for this if "possible"...I know everyone is talking about the "impossible"  I really hope its not "impossible" for you to back up this statement...

I am not sure i understand, you want me to provide you like to Darkfalls homepage?

tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

and as I have pointed out none of that matters.

black is black. If I say 'color is black' my views on ANYTHING WHATSOEVER...does matter. either my statement is true or it is false. As much as I would like my personal experiences and biases to change phyiscal reality it does not

Actually if you say color is black i ask you what shade and temperature, because that is important... I could also argue that black is not a color at all...

 

So yuo say black thinking it is true or false and i just flipped your entire world upside down by pointing out that there are shades to everything...

this subject is not about shades.

Its really rather straightforward and can be quantified and prooven fairly easily.

If what you say is true then nobody who likes the game can engage in this conversation because they would have a bias.

Again you are wrong, it is all about shades... ot levels if that makes it easier to understand. You claim that you have the truth but as we explained there is no simple yes or no answer to the question of wheater or not your ideas can be done. They sure can be coded, but it is unclear if they will work in a online setting and it is very unsure if they would get any funding.

 

Also it is thanks to what i say that people can engage in conversation, because nobody holds a absolut truth.. it is all shades.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

and as I have pointed out none of that matters.

black is black. If I say 'color is black' my views on ANYTHING WHATSOEVER...does matter. either my statement is true or it is false. As much as I would like my personal experiences and biases to change phyiscal reality it does not

Actually if you say color is black i ask you what shade and temperature, because that is important... I could also argue that black is not a color at all...

 

So yuo say black thinking it is true or false and i just flipped your entire world upside down by pointing out that there are shades to everything...

this subject is not about shades.

Its really rather straightforward and can be quantified and prooven fairly easily.

If what you say is true then nobody who likes the game can engage in this conversation because they would have a bias.

Again you are wrong, it is all about shades... ot levels if that makes it easier to understand. You claim that you have the truth but as we explained there is no simple yes or no answer to the question of wheater or not your ideas can be done. They sure can be coded, but it is unclear if they will work in a online setting and it is very unsure if they would get any funding.

 

Also it is thanks to what i say that people can engage in conversation, because nobody holds a absolut truth.. it is all shades.

if that was true then nobody could talk about anything.

if you like the game, you cant engage, if you dont like the game, you cant engage.

I am sorry but facts are facts and I know people like to pretend that their views and biases can affect reality but it can not

Kicksave321

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Kicksave321

 

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

 

I would like to see a link for this if "possible"...I know everyone is talking about the "impossible"  I really hope its not "impossible" for you to back up this statement...

I am not sure i understand, you want me to provide you like to Darkfalls homepage?

No in this thread you talk in "facts" I was thinking since you said "still making money" that it was "possible" to show us where you got your information.  If its "impossible" for you to show us exactly where it states they are making money, well then this thread is really about the "impossible" isn't it. 

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Kicksave321

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Kicksave321

 

but again..

Darkfall has said features, did it on a shoestring and is still making money.

 

I would like to see a link for this if "possible"...I know everyone is talking about the "impossible"  I really hope its not "impossible" for you to back up this statement...

I am not sure i understand, you want me to provide you like to Darkfalls homepage?

No in this thread you talk in "facts" I was thinking since you said "still making money" that is was "possible" to show us where you got your information.  If its "impossible" for you to show us exactly where it states they are making money, well then this thread is really about the "impossible" isn't it. 

Oh sorry, 'still making money'

yes that is what I assume, that is not a fact.

I assume that because they were online for 4 years and then somewhere had money to make a new game. but your right, just an assumption

tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

if that was true then nobody could talk about anything.

if you like the game, you cant engage, if you dont like the game, you cant engage.

I am sorry but facts are facts and I know people like to pretend that their views and biases can affect reality but it can not

 

Sorry, you lost me. How could the fact that things are built by shades prevent anyone from talking about stuff...

 

Any way... Just to stroke your ego.... because god knows you seem to need it.

 

Yes your ideas could in theory be coded.

 

There you go.. Happy.

SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tawess

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

if that was true then nobody could talk about anything.

if you like the game, you cant engage, if you dont like the game, you cant engage.

I am sorry but facts are facts and I know people like to pretend that their views and biases can affect reality but it can not

 

Sorry, you lost me. How could the fact that things are built by shades prevent anyone from talking about stuff...

 

Any way... Just to stroke your ego.... because god knows you seem to need it.

 

Yes your ideas could in theory be coded.

 

There you go.. Happy.

yes.

 

although I would even be happier if you said 'it could be coded becuase its already been done betore'

rather than 'in theory'. Given that I have been playing MMOs with said features for 5 years now it hurts my feelings when people call my game play a 'theory'

tawess

Well that means we all leave this thread with a lack of satisfaction...

 

I say in theory because until someone actually put them in to a ES game... It is in theory. That you have similar functions in DF is unrelated. Bevause we are not talking about DF in the DF forums... No you open by saying that there would be childs play to change the entire foundation of ESO to fit your vision...

 

And that is just false.

 

So again, in theory it can be done to ESO.