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how to deal with Pay2Win MMORPGs?

majimaji Member UncommonPosts: 2,091

So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. And it doesn't look like we'd ever get another MMORPG to which that doesn't apply. So how to deal with that? I see there three possibilities.

a) stop playing MMORPGs. If they can't deliver what you want (a non-pay2win game), then simply don't play them. There are enough other awesome multiplayer games out there, such as DOTA2, that do well without pay2win. So currently I do that, but I really like MMORPGs, so that's quite a shame.

b) ignore the pay2win part. Just accept that this is what things look like. A significant portion of the players want that, the companies deliver, and that's the way it is. Simply don't use the shop. Of course you have to live with the concept of playing a game that cripples you on purpose to force you to spend money, that people beat you in PvP because they spent more money, and that the guy you just congrulated for his awesome sword has bought it for real money a second ago.

c) treat the game like a subscription game. set aside a certain amount of money each month and spend it for stuff in the games pay2win shop. most problems of b) still apply, but the number of people randomly destroying you in pvp for money reasons will be smaller, and you will have the necessary basics to actually enjoy the game (a decent bank size, more than one character slot, an acceptable rate of gaining xp).

 

So what do you do?

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

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Comments

  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 2,955
    B , while leveling and A after i hit endgame :P
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,560
    d.  If I like it play it, if I want something from the shop I get it.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

     

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

  • majimaji Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

     

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    All words are made up. The question is just whether enough people agree on the same meaning so that using that word makes sense.

    Also, it doesn't make much sense that you claim to have a different understanding of p2w while being unable to state what it is. I mean, how we are supposed to discuss this subject then?

    Yes, in some cases, expansions can be considered pay2win.

    There is a key number of differences though:

    a) an expansion people buy once, and then they're all on the same level. You basically have then two classes of players. The regular ones and the ones with the expansion. With pay2win cash shops though, people can spend any amount of money, up to insane amounts. So you don't have just two classes of players, but you have anything from the crippled player who doesn't pay any money and has a near broken game, up to the guy who spends thousands of bucks and destroys everybody else.

    b) expansions normally give a quite large amount of content that the company put a lot of work into. When you pay 20$ for another character slot or more space in the bank, then that requires no work of that company at all. They just change a single variable. 

    c) paid expansions come in large intervals, whereas the cash shops receive a constant flood of boosts and items, allowing people, again, to spend thousands of bucks, if they want a game that basically plays itself

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  • CrusadesCrusades Member Posts: 480
    Don't play them - it's that simple. Devs and consumers have statistical data now on the lifespan of an mmorpg - now they are using that data to maximize profits. Pay2win is profitable and if you don't like it, then get out of here.
  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,003
    have'nt really come across many games with p2w.. the ones i know of i don't play(what's the fun in getting the best gear with no effort?)

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • ArthasmArthasm Member UncommonPosts: 782
    There is no A, B, C... Z..., 1, 2,3... Permanent unistall.
  • DarkstarGamesDarkstarGames Member UncommonPosts: 3

    Unfortunately because the way most MMO's are set up they can not prevent gold farming or they don't have a good enough business model or game to support the system without making players purchase tons of level up crystals and gems... I got so sick of it I decided to form my own game company.

    You'll never be able to stop players from paying to win. However we set up a system where people who pay to win are never matched up with regular new players or medium skill players.

    We even posted an article about this very topic here

    darkstar-games.com/spacemasters.html

     

    image

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,788
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

     

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    EQ2 added the strongest crafts in the game in an expansion meaning anyone who did not buy that xpac would be erased from the auction house.They added a pack pony that harvests for you while you play,a decent advantage over time.

    What made these powerful additions lame is that that is about the ONLY thing these xpacs offered.Big time difference in combat if wearing those new crafts.

    As for paid xpacs ,i think MANY should realize that sub fees should more than cover those costs,yet devs were still making us pay for those.SO after 1 year you paid 180+another 30-50 for an xpac so 200+ bucks a year easily.

    You can look further at Wiz 101 a kids game for god sakes,they added mercs you could buy to aid in combat and were only a ONE time"one battle" use lol.

    Bottom line is that at one time people defended all of this by saying "they only offer cosmetic".I said way back then,it was just a foot in the door until a full push to over  priced gaming.

    I am as of now not playing any mmorpg,i either can't stand the publisher/developer or the monetary system in place.I do not like hidden costs in a past tiem that is suppose to be about FUN,not about over the top money grinding.

    Sadly i am playing Hearthstone a card game by a developer i don't like "Blizzard".Slack effort by their team so far and a pay 2 win system unless you have 8 hours a day everyday to play for free and slowly build up the cards.Knowing Blizzard i am 99% certain they are monitoring the amount of gold saved by players and will afford the cost for the new cards above and beyond FAIR value because of the high gold stash players are hanging onto.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by maji
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    All words are made up. The question is just whether enough people agree on the same meaning so that using that word makes sense.

    Also, it doesn't make much sense that you claim to have a different understanding of p2w while being unable to state what it is. I mean, how we are supposed to discuss this subject then?

    In the industry, "pay to win" is generally understood to be an advantage gained by spending money that cannot otherwise be gained through playing. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LudwikLudwik Member UncommonPosts: 407
    Needless to say, there are a lot of people on here that will want to argue with you over the semantics of what's 'P2W'.

    You know what crosses the line for you, don't argue with them.

    These days I lean heavily towards 'A', not just for p2w though. The games are boring clones, the players are jerks, and the developers are greedy.

    Save yourself the displeasure of dealing with all three and just stick to single player games. You'll find their far more in depth and challenging anyway.
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 1,949
    Originally posted by Ludwik
    Needless to say, there are a lot of people on here that will want to argue with you over the semantics of what's 'P2W'.

    You know what crosses the line for you, don't argue with them.

    These days I lean heavily towards 'A', not just for p2w though. The games are boring clones, the players are jerks, and the developers are greedy.

    Save yourself the displeasure of dealing with all three and just stick to single player games. You'll find their far more in depth and challenging anyway.

    As I've stated on this site before, the items that a player actually wants from a cash shop are what they'll consider P2W, regardless of what it is. The only items that gamers are okay with being in a shop are the things they don't want. F2P games are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

     

    A P2P game will have money just thrown at it, no questions asked. Expensive collectors editions, three, six, twelve month subs, whatever the developers ask. Make a F2P game though, then players don't expect to just play for free, they expect to get absolutely everything the game has to offer in the past, present, or future for free. Doesn't make any sense to me.

     

    I don't understand why people are so against paying any money in a F2P game. Your either having fun with the game or your not. If you are, then pay some money, if you think that paying might make the game better for you, then pay the damn money. If not then quit playing at stop complaining that it's P2W.

     

    Personally, I stick to buying things that are permanent. Which means that I pretty much stick to account or character upgrades like bank space, bag space, character slots, content upgrades and so on. This way, regardless of how much those individual upgrades cost, it's still cheaper than a sub as I'll never have to pay for those things again.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,178
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. And it doesn't look like we'd ever get another MMORPG to which that doesn't apply. So how to deal with that? I see there three possibilities.

    a) stop playing MMORPGs. ...

    b) ignore the pay2win part. ...

    c) treat the game like a subscription game. ...

     

    So what do you do?

     

    The first thing i do is disagree with how you define P2W. For an example i have a very hard time seeing how the mounts or cosmetic helms in WoW is P2W in any way.. and they still fit under your label.

     

    But if i go by the spirit of your question rather then the exact wording. I used to play a game like that, and while it is not a full MMORPG it is a MMO racer called NFS:W. In that game it for a long time was so that the best cars (stat wise) could only be bought with real money. No other way to get them. So what did i do... I simply ignored it. Sure i knew that if i got in to a race with one of those cars my loss was all but set. But i made a small mini-game out of it to try and get as close as i could and every now and then i beat them.

     

    Now when it comes to F2P games otoh i sually do C, i set a amount i feel the game is worth to me each month and never put in more money than that,,, For god knows they can suck you dry if you want to.

     

    Buuuut as i said i do not agree with your idea of P2W. And for the most time if a game is really P2W as in a PvP game that sells a special stat boost or buff that can´t be had in-game i usually walk away, my life is to short to be upset over stupid crap like that. In fact NFS:W is the only blatant P2W game i have stayed with and that was mostly due to a alck of a decent on-line racer at the time.

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by tawess
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. And it doesn't look like we'd ever get another MMORPG to which that doesn't apply. So how to deal with that? I see there three possibilities.

    a) stop playing MMORPGs. ...

    b) ignore the pay2win part. ...

    c) treat the game like a subscription game. ...

     

    So what do you do?

     

    The first thing i do is disagree with how you define P2W. For an example i have a very hard time seeing how the mounts or cosmetic helms in WoW is P2W in any way.. and they still fit under your label.

    But if i go by the spirit of your question rather then the exact wording. I used to play a game like that, and while it is not a full MMORPG it is a MMO racer called NFS:W. In that game it for a long time was so that the best cars (stat wise) could only be bought with real money. No other way to get them. So what did i do... I simply ignored it. Sure i knew that if i got in to a race with one of those cars my loss was all but set. But i made a small mini-game out of it to try and get as close as i could and every now and then i beat them.

    Now when it comes to F2P games otoh i sually do C, i set a amount i feel the game is worth to me each month and never put in more money than that,,, For god knows they can suck you dry if you want to.

    Buuuut as i said i do not agree with your idea of P2W. And for the most time if a game is really P2W as in a PvP game that sells a special stat boost or buff that can´t be had in-game i usually walk away, my life is to short to be upset over stupid crap like that. In fact NFS:W is the only blatant P2W game i have stayed with and that was mostly due to a alck of a decent on-line racer at the time.

    ISO: Forum +1/Like feature  

     

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    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,494

    I grouse that they do not have non-whale servers.

    The thing is the whales want to be kings of the sea.  The mid-range players want to avoid the whales, and have a more or less fair playing field.

    This is easy to do actually...

    Server type one Normal, no limits on buying.

    Server type two  -> $100 per month maximum limit on buying.  $5 per month minimum limit on buying.

    Server type three -> $30 per month maximum limit on buying.  $10 per month minimum limit on buying.

    This gets everyone what they want.  The whales can be kings of the sea, and you can buy the protection you can afford if you are putting a minimum amount into the game, or for a level playing field at higher levels.  And the game can pull the maximum amount of money out of the players.

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,170
    Every single MMO that allows players to trade or sell goods is susceptible to RMT or P2W.
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    People need to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.  Stop caring what anyone else has, what they bought, etc.  Stop competing.  I don't buy anything out of the cash shop, never have and never will, no matter what it is.  It doesn't bother me if the guy next to me spent zero or $15,000 this month.  Why should I care?  Why do you?

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    People need to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.  Stop caring what anyone else has, what they bought, etc.  Stop competing.  I don't buy anything out of the cash shop, never have and never will, no matter what it is.  It doesn't bother me if the guy next to me spent zero or $15,000 this month.  Why should I care?  Why do you?

    I think most p2w complaints translate to I have to spend money on something I don't think I should...I doubt many care what other people buy.

  • CrusadesCrusades Member Posts: 480
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by maji
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    All words are made up. The question is just whether enough people agree on the same meaning so that using that word makes sense.

    Also, it doesn't make much sense that you claim to have a different understanding of p2w while being unable to state what it is. I mean, how we are supposed to discuss this subject then?

    In the industry, "pay to win" is generally understood to be an advantage gained by spending money that cannot otherwise be gained through playing. 

     

     

    Wrong - pay2win is paying for anything that gives one an advantage including consumable x p potions and various other shortcuts, early weapon loadouts, extra bag space..... It's all pay2win - which means there are many games that are pay to win. If you don't like it then go do something else.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,907
    Originally posted by Crusades
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by maji
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    All words are made up. The question is just whether enough people agree on the same meaning so that using that word makes sense.

    Also, it doesn't make much sense that you claim to have a different understanding of p2w while being unable to state what it is. I mean, how we are supposed to discuss this subject then?

    In the industry, "pay to win" is generally understood to be an advantage gained by spending money that cannot otherwise be gained through playing. 

     

     

    Wrong - pay2win is paying for anything that gives one an advantage including consumable x p potions and various other shortcuts, early weapon loadouts, extra bag space..... It's all pay2win - which means there are many games that are pay to win. If you don't like it then go do something else.

    Er, you are arguing with someone who works in the industry about what the industry considers P2W to be.  In fact CCP did an extensive analysis which got inadvertently published which concluded items of power have the strongest buying appeal.  There is a big negative of course, it drives away other players so there is a fine line to walk in this regard.

    None of those items you mentioned are really P2W, they are short cuts that impart no significant advantage in most games, as long as you have the time to play to compensate.

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,560
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Crusades
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by maji
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by maji

    So, for me, a pay2win MMORPG is any MMORPG where you can spend real money to get stuff that alters the gameplay. 

    A: that isn't what it means, you just made that up.

    B: paid expansions alter game play making your version of p2w stupid.

    All words are made up. The question is just whether enough people agree on the same meaning so that using that word makes sense.

    Also, it doesn't make much sense that you claim to have a different understanding of p2w while being unable to state what it is. I mean, how we are supposed to discuss this subject then?

    In the industry, "pay to win" is generally understood to be an advantage gained by spending money that cannot otherwise be gained through playing. 

     

     

    Wrong - pay2win is paying for anything that gives one an advantage including consumable x p potions and various other shortcuts, early weapon loadouts, extra bag space..... It's all pay2win - which means there are many games that are pay to win. If you don't like it then go do something else.

    Er, you are arguing with someone who works in the industry about what the industry considers P2W to be.  In fact CCP did an extensive analysis which got inadvertently published which concluded items of power have the strongest buying appeal.  There is a big negative of course, it drives away other players so there is a fine line to walk in this regard.

    None of those items you mentioned are really P2W, they are short cuts that impart no significant advantage in most games, as long as you have the time to play to compensate.

    Exactly.  Xp potions are not p2w because at any given level the other person cannot do anything more than I do.  They will get to another level faster, but when we are the same level there is no difference.  There will always be people ahead of me in levels so why should I care how fast someone else gets there.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by tawess

     

    The first thing i do is disagree with how you define P2W. For an example i have a very hard time seeing how the mounts or cosmetic helms in WoW is P2W in any way.. and they still fit under your label.

     

     

    Just because you don't play a game a certain way, doesn't make it not P2W.    Pure and simple, the OP's definition is the correct way to define P2W.  It doesn't exclude any person's play style. 

     

    I personally choose C if there is some aspect that I like.  Normally, I just set a spending limit of $180 after I have decided to play it for a year.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by Alders
    Every single MMO that allows players to trade or sell goods is susceptible to RMT or P2W.

     

     Are you trying to justify that microtransactions are the same as RMT from a 3rd party.   I can't really argue with dubious nature of the microtransaction model, but that just seems wrong.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,912

    Either accept it or stop playing games that you define as being "P2W".

     

    You can also complain about it, but unless you're Oprah Winfrey's cousin, complaining will most probably have zero effect.

     

    The "legal" definition of P2W is if there are items in the Cash Shop that cannot be obtained through "normal game play" AND/OR those items have attributes that make them more powerful than anything else in the game.

     

    Of course, YMMV. We don't all have the same definition of what constitutes "normal game play" or "a resaonable time". Therefore many of these items that can be earned in game require  a few hundred hours of "normal game play".

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    d.  If I like it play it, if I want something from the shop I get it.

    Me too. I don't get this idea that paying for my hobbies and games is bad. I'm a big boy. I can make up my own mind about what I want to spend money on.

    Originally posted by Stizzled

    As I've stated on this site before, the items that a player actually wants from a cash shop are what they'll consider P2W, regardless of what it is. The only items that gamers are okay with being in a shop are the things they don't want. F2P games are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

    A P2P game will have money just thrown at it, no questions asked. Expensive collectors editions, three, six, twelve month subs, whatever the developers ask. Make a F2P game though, then players don't expect to just play for free, they expect to get absolutely everything the game has to offer in the past, present, or future for free. Doesn't make any sense to me.

    I don't understand why people are so against paying any money in a F2P game. Your either having fun with the game or your not. If you are, then pay some money, if you think that paying might make the game better for you, then pay the damn money. If not then quit playing at stop complaining that it's P2W.

    Personally, I stick to buying things that are permanent. Which means that I pretty much stick to account or character upgrades like bank space, bag space, character slots, content upgrades and so on. This way, regardless of how much those individual upgrades cost, it's still cheaper than a sub as I'll never have to pay for those things again.

    Excellent post. This really lays out how I feel. I just don't get how people will throw $200 a year at renting a game without question but then balk at the option to spend that in a F2P game that you can play anytime you want.

    Originally posted by tawess

    The first thing i do is disagree with how you define P2W. For an example i have a very hard time seeing how the mounts or cosmetic helms in WoW is P2W in any way.. and they still fit under your label.

     <snip for space>

    I like this post too. Like Damonville said it often sounds like people just don't want to spend money and are upset that others are willing to.

    I know when I spend money on a game I want to get something of value for that, not junk that means nothing. I rarely buy xp/rep buffs because they don't mean much to me. I like things that add value to my account.

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