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No trinity impressions?

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Baitness
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    I feel that WvW is an unmitigated disaster at this point as the unbelievably negative response to hacking in the EU and win trading in the US has shown.  The past season was the most awful thing they could possibly have implemented, and I saw no positive views on it anywhere.  Even now, ArenaNet cannot keep their WvW forums clean of complaints - even with their moderators locking and/or deleting every topic with unhappy players.

     

    For those that aren't aware - Gold league in the EU last season was plagued with massive amounts of hacking.  Weeks of players complaining about it were shoved under the rug.  In the NA gold league, two of the three full servers ganged up on the third, trading each other wins to guarantee they would come first and second, while having no actual competition until the final week to decide who got first.  In the NA silver league, many guilds jumped to the Henge of Denravi server and brought a complete blowout in every single matchup by having far more players - but the drastically outmanned servers had to keep playing against them for 9 weeks.

     

     

    ArenaNets response to these things:

     

    Hacking:  Do not post about exploits or name players or talk about matchups.  No further response.

    Win Trading:  The head dev said he thought it was interesting and later mentioned he played for one of the two win trading servers.

    HoD blowing out NA Silver: They are considering making matchups a bit shorter.

     

    I really have lost faith in them as a company.  It is not like these are new issues to WvW - these are simply being brought to new extremes - and still not getting properly addressed.  Every one of these issues has been brought to their attention multiple times before.  They either do not know how to or do not care to address them.

     

    This is a bit of a sore point for me as I was really excited about WvW before the game came out, and continued playing it as I waited for them to iron out what was originally a shorter list of issues.  They did do a few things to improve WvW - at one point they even managed to fix the lag (I had no idea how they messed it up so it came back).  Unfortunately whoever was giving them good ideas seems to be MIA, and the rest of the company is making a mess of whats left of this game.

    There are always sore losers, its side effect of having winners.

    They DID go wrong with Swiss and duration, but thats about it. Hacking happens, and no it wasnt "plagued" and it didnt effect any outcomes (if thats all you worry about and it seems you do)

    Win trading, suck it up, 2 sides cooperated to wipe you, its PvP, go play EvE, or L2 back in the day to see true extent of "sh*t hit the fan" moments, this is a joke compared to those (and similar, i just put those 2 as example).

    Players gone too soft today. Go play PvE if you cant take such "injustice" lol

    www had complaints and "top guilds leaving" for 2 years now. And its going strong for 2 years now. Draw your own conclusions.

    AND, most of the players who stuck around (and there are a lot contrary to your belief) with www learned a long time ago to just ignore PPT and play for good fights and fun. Those who want to play for PPT will stack on 1st tier servers and thats actually very good thing, it leaves rest of the serevrs mostly free of them.

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Baitness
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    I feel that WvW is an unmitigated disaster at this point as the unbelievably negative response to hacking in the EU and win trading in the US has shown.  The past season was the most awful thing they could possibly have implemented, and I saw no positive views on it anywhere.  Even now, ArenaNet cannot keep their WvW forums clean of complaints - even with their moderators locking and/or deleting every topic with unhappy players.

     

    For those that aren't aware - Gold league in the EU last season was plagued with massive amounts of hacking.  Weeks of players complaining about it were shoved under the rug.  In the NA gold league, two of the three full servers ganged up on the third, trading each other wins to guarantee they would come first and second, while having no actual competition until the final week to decide who got first.  In the NA silver league, many guilds jumped to the Henge of Denravi server and brought a complete blowout in every single matchup by having far more players - but the drastically outmanned servers had to keep playing against them for 9 weeks.

     

     

    ArenaNets response to these things:

     

    Hacking:  Do not post about exploits or name players or talk about matchups.  No further response.

    Win Trading:  The head dev said he thought it was interesting and later mentioned he played for one of the two win trading servers.

    HoD blowing out NA Silver: They are considering making matchups a bit shorter.

     

    I really have lost faith in them as a company.  It is not like these are new issues to WvW - these are simply being brought to new extremes - and still not getting properly addressed.  Every one of these issues has been brought to their attention multiple times before.  They either do not know how to or do not care to address them.

     

    This is a bit of a sore point for me as I was really excited about WvW before the game came out, and continued playing it as I waited for them to iron out what was originally a shorter list of issues.  They did do a few things to improve WvW - at one point they even managed to fix the lag (I had no idea how they messed it up so it came back).  Unfortunately whoever was giving them good ideas seems to be MIA, and the rest of the company is making a mess of whats left of this game.

    There are always sore losers, its side effect of having winners.

    They DID go wrong with Swiss and duration, but thats about it. Hacking happens, and no it wasnt "plagued" and it didnt effect any outcomes (if thats all you worry about and it seems you do)

    Win trading, suck it up, 2 sides cooperated to wipe you, its PvP, go play EvE, or L2 back in the day to see true extent of "sh*t hit the fan" moments, this is a joke compared to those (and similar, i just put those 2 as example).

    Players gone too soft today. Go play PvE if you cant take such "injustice" lol

    www had complaints and "top guilds leaving" for 2 years now. And its going strong for 2 years now. Draw your own conclusions.

    AND, most of the players who stuck around (and there are a lot contrary to your belief) with www learned a long time ago to just ignore PPT and play for good fights and fun. Those who want to play for PPT will stack on 1st tier servers and thats actually very good thing, it leaves rest of the serevrs mostly free of them.

    Ehhh... :/ My server recently went gold after obliterating the tournaments. I still like good fights :U 

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    I feel like that person is trying to cover up how bad it was.

    The hacking absolutely affected the outcome in EU. It was absolutely rampant with the top match every week having multiple garrison flips from underground groups.

    In na it want an alliance to stop one server, it was the two servers alternating giving wins to each other every week to guarantee the outcome of the entire tournament. It is worth noting that going into the tournament, those servers were ranked first and second.

    In silver na, the matchups were forced onto servers that had absolutely no chance against the much larger HoD. On top of that, with server transfer restrictions there was nothing the smaller servers could do but watch as wvw was ruined for 9 weeks straight.

    ArenaNet has just been deleting as many complaints as they could, but they can't keep up. They refuse to address how terrible wvw has become, burying their heads in the and and hoping the players will follow suit.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Baitness
    I feel like that person is trying to cover up how bad it was.

    The hacking absolutely affected the outcome in EU. It was absolutely rampant with the top match every week having multiple garrison flips from underground groups.

    In na it want an alliance to stop one server, it was the two servers alternating giving wins to each other every week to guarantee the outcome of the entire tournament. It is worth noting that going into the tournament, those servers were ranked first and second.

    In silver na, the matchups were forced onto servers that had absolutely no chance against the much larger HoD. On top of that, with server transfer restrictions there was nothing the smaller servers could do but watch as wvw was ruined for 9 weeks straight.

    ArenaNet has just been deleting as many complaints as they could, but they can't keep up. They refuse to address how terrible wvw has become, burying their heads in the and and hoping the players will follow suit.

    Uh-huh, whatever you say. Queues tell different story. You are welcome to just abandon that abomination (thought it seems that you dont play at all, just read whines on the forums). You dont even know how swiss system works because you wouldnt write such nonsense, but hey, w/e 

  • Cramit845Cramit845 Member UncommonPosts: 395

    Honestly, I cant even make it more than a week playing this game.  The lvling up is just boring, IMO and the rvr is fun if you like to zerg.  I can't speak to dungeons, end game or anything like that, but the only thing I find even remotely fun is rvr and that's only for a hour or so.

     

    Game seems good from afar, but it just wasn't my cup of tea.

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    You are incorrect about all of those things except that I have recently stopped playing gw2 after losing faith in arenanet. I like your avid defending of arenanets terrible decisions, though. Even my friends that did not quit were unhappy with how things were going, they are just holding out more hope than I can. You are the first I have seen pretending there are no problems.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Baitness
    You are incorrect about all of those things except that I have recently stopped playing gw2 after losing faith in arenanet. I like your avid defending of arenanets terrible decisions, though. Even my friends that did not quit were unhappy with how things were going, they are just holding out more hope than I can. You are the first I have seen pretending there are no problems.

    Yah, you dont play, it reckons.

    No problems? You dont even read posts. Next time do that first. Then you might reply with something that actually makes sense.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,747
    Originally posted by Cramit845

    Honestly, I cant even make it more than a week playing this game.  The lvling up is just boring, IMO and the rvr is fun if you like to zerg.  I can't speak to dungeons, end game or anything like that, but the only thing I find even remotely fun is rvr and that's only for a hour or so.

     

    Game seems good from afar, but it just wasn't my cup of tea.

    Even though I despised the lobby based game play of GW1, if found it infinitely more appealing than GW2 when it comes to all of the other game designs.

    image
  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    It actually recminds me of back then whe i still did dungeons, i sarted group for AC and 1 guy joined and ask if he can bring his lowbie noob friend along for first dungeon run in GW2. Of course i said, no problem, evenif he doesnt know what hes doing dungeons are easy.

    So the noob joined and he spent 90% time facing dirt. I mean, we tried to rez him but 10s after he was down again, so i just said "watch the fight mechanics and what we do" ( there was NO cheesing on my runs). So 4 of us finished with no wipes. Barely any downed.

    Now imagine 5 of these running a dungeon. And then those same 5 dudes come to a forum whining like "dungeons are complete mess" "www is just zerging" whaaaa whaaa whaaa (just read this thread)

    Everey time someone starts those whines i by reflex remember that noob and ROFL about it.

    Now, problem is these same people have illusion of being "best playa eva" and dont want to admit to themselves they just suck at it and blame the game for it.

    I think the same thing every time I hear someone say that they can play a healer or tank AFK in an actual raid. I realize they have no idea what they are talking about and have never actually raided. They are most likely the people that were unable to play well enough to get into an actual raiding guild and are bitter about it. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Originally posted by Baitness
    You are incorrect about all of those things except that I have recently stopped playing gw2 after losing faith in arenanet. I like your avid defending of arenanets terrible decisions, though. Even my friends that did not quit were unhappy with how things were going, they are just holding out more hope than I can. You are the first I have seen pretending there are no problems.

    Yah, you dont play, it reckons.

    No problems? You dont even read posts. Next time do that first. Then you might reply with something that actually makes sense.

     

    I said I recently stopped playing, I really doubt it changed in the past couple weeks. If your hostility and attitude are at all indicative of how things have been going recently then it sounds even worse, which is pretty impressive.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Baitness
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Baitness
    You are incorrect about all of those things except that I have recently stopped playing gw2 after losing faith in arenanet. I like your avid defending of arenanets terrible decisions, though. Even my friends that did not quit were unhappy with how things were going, they are just holding out more hope than I can. You are the first I have seen pretending there are no problems.

    Yah, you dont play, it reckons.

    No problems? You dont even read posts. Next time do that first. Then you might reply with something that actually makes sense.

     

    I said I recently stopped playing, I really doubt it changed in the past couple weeks. If your hostility and attitude are at all indicative of how things have been going recently then it sounds even worse, which is pretty impressive.

    No, nothings changed, stay away, its goddamn awful!

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Baitness
    I feel like that person is trying to cover up how bad it was.

    The hacking absolutely affected the outcome in EU. It was absolutely rampant with the top match every week having multiple garrison flips from underground groups.

    In na it want an alliance to stop one server, it was the two servers alternating giving wins to each other every week to guarantee the outcome of the entire tournament. It is worth noting that going into the tournament, those servers were ranked first and second.

    In silver na, the matchups were forced onto servers that had absolutely no chance against the much larger HoD. On top of that, with server transfer restrictions there was nothing the smaller servers could do but watch as wvw was ruined for 9 weeks straight.

    ArenaNet has just been deleting as many complaints as they could, but they can't keep up. They refuse to address how terrible wvw has become, burying their heads in the and and hoping the players will follow suit.

    I'll speak on the behalf of EU because I have no clue how NA servers are doing and quite frankly I don't even care because it doesn't affect me.

    So, in EU, silver league, there was only ONE server that was conveniently renamed to Far Hackerspeak (you know who you are :P ) but truth be told there were only handful of hackers and yes it sucked having some underground golem nightcapping our garrison, far hackerspeak finished on second position alongside 3 more servers. I was hoping they would get third but they made a surprise nightcap streak unlike any other for the whole tournament. Some of them took absence from work ALL SO THEY COULD NIGHTCAP and get first for once. After that they were all burned down and tired so my server had no issues blobbing the fuck out of them. No hacker could save them. I don't see how those handful of hackers affected the outcome in EU.

    I respect FS for trying. I was more shocked that they did something like this, whole guilds taking a break from work and families just to try and get first place. And we surely didn't make it easy for them but they caught us by surprise. Had some great fights there. 

    Educate yourself, then come back again.

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    It actually recminds me of back then whe i still did dungeons, i sarted group for AC and 1 guy joined and ask if he can bring his lowbie noob friend along for first dungeon run in GW2. Of course i said, no problem, evenif he doesnt know what hes doing dungeons are easy.

    So the noob joined and he spent 90% time facing dirt. I mean, we tried to rez him but 10s after he was down again, so i just said "watch the fight mechanics and what we do" ( there was NO cheesing on my runs). So 4 of us finished with no wipes. Barely any downed.

    Now imagine 5 of these running a dungeon. And then those same 5 dudes come to a forum whining like "dungeons are complete mess" "www is just zerging" whaaaa whaaa whaaa (just read this thread)

    Everey time someone starts those whines i by reflex remember that noob and ROFL about it.

    Now, problem is these same people have illusion of being "best playa eva" and dont want to admit to themselves they just suck at it and blame the game for it.

    I think the same thing every time I hear someone say that they can play a healer or tank AFK in an actual raid. I realize they have no idea what they are talking about and have never actually raided. They are most likely the people that were unable to play well enough to get into an actual raiding guild and are bitter about it. 

    I was in the alliance that took down the first Antharas in Lineage 2 @ Teon, you know, back then when it was actually hard. Speak for yourself. Healers are AFKers. If anything the tanks and  the buffers did all the heavy lifting. I'm sorry I don't have footage any longer to show you, it was many years, many hard drives ago.

    P.S: It was so long ago that everybody was wearing B-Grade shizzle 

    The raiding guild that I created later on is still active in L2, and they still raid. I can hook you up if you want. Although I created it @ Naia after the server mergers. I still don't like they gave up on EU region :/ had some massive lags @ naia but still managed to get great. Nothing BattlePing couldn't fix.  

    P.S: In PvP I always had a healer subclass. Healers were massively OP in Lineage 2. I could keep a full group alive against all odds with a Cardinal. Oh boy the line of sight errors i was giving my opponents xD Best time ever. But yeah I wouldn't call LOS and spamming AoE heals/balancing a player skill per se. I had so much MP regen that all I had to do was to time the heals and be done for it. I wouldn't call that skill either. I don't know, healing is too op and too lazy. When I was playing my dagger my hands were like a pianist. As healer I pressed 5 keys tops. 

  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by Jaldren

    But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

     

    Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

     

     they have to co-op, to apply the healing field and to blast it, the right moment with no other field above. Thats kinda hard. Anyway Dungeons and PvE in GW2 are mostly the fast runs where people bring heavy dps and unleash the hell in there.. i dont like it, so i prefer WvW, where these mechanics and rotations exists

     

    Also you can still be a healer (almost with every class, some are better though) but its not effective, cause the poor design for the majority of dungeons pushes the players to dps ...

     

    anyway the fact that now, you have to co-op in order to get a good heal or buf(boons ) makes the lack of holy trinity more interesting and team friendly. the boss mechanics are those that sucks in GW2, there are some good boss fights, but players avoid them cause there is the easy way ...

    image

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489

    There's healing in Guild Wars 2.

    It's just a different mechanic. The general rule is; you have to watch your own ass. If you drop you weren't paying attention. If a hunter or someone has a group heal or a bonus to heal, take advantage of it but no need to plan around it.

    Grouping in Guild Wars 2 is really fun because you don't have to wait for that perfect mixture of builds to come along.

    If as a group you enjoy planning for that, then the option is there. Min-Max like crazy.

    If you want to do your own thing, do it and it'll work out as long as you do what you're supposed to do in MMOs.

    I think it's great. I wouldn't mind if they had added a healer first / everything else secondary class. But there's so much utility and tricks built into each class as it stands.

    a yo ho ho

  • TolmosTolmos Member UncommonPosts: 141

    There IS a trinity in GW2, it's just not the trinity that exists in other games.

    DPS / Support (buffs and minor heals) / CC

     

     

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