Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

No trinity impressions?

13

Comments

  • StanlyStankoStanlyStanko Member UncommonPosts: 270
    Afwul
  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by StanlyStanko
    Afwul

    Is this an acronym? I haven't heard of it sorry.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675

    While I think the idea of getting away from the standard trinity style is good, I think it is quite poorly executed in the games dungeons.  I did not enjoy my time spent in them for a few reasons:

     

    First off they are pretty easy.  I saw the person much earlier say they are like the dark souls of MMORPGs, but I strongly disagree.  I am not sure I have ever fully wiped in a dungeon in GW2, including 3 manning a few times.  At a time when almost all MMOs have dungeons that are, as a friend lovingly put it, "the olympics of not standing in shit," GW2 is doing the same thing - just without the healer and tank roles.  When you make a mistake though, you do not die.  You temporarily lay on the ground until you can be "rallied" by killing a mob or a friend helping you up or using an ability.  Very infrequently will you fail to rally, and like I said earlier, I cannot remember a time when I had an entire group wipe.

     

    Second, there are not a lot of dungeons.  ANet decided to make larger dungeons with branching paths rather than making more smaller dungeons.  It is an interesting design choice, but I feel they made a mistake with their implementation.  When you enter a dungeon (in explorable mode) you have a party vote on which path to take.  Then you do that trail through the dungeon, with the bosses along that path.  If you finish and want to do a different path, you have to start over, even though that means killing the first third or so of the the same dungeon over again.  Of course to even get into explorable mode where you can pick paths, you need to have someone in your party who has done story mode, which is another part of the same dungeon with more dialogue from npcs.  At the end of it all I really felt that neither the story/explorable mode nor the path system worked for the dungeons in GW2, and I was just left with a small handful of dungeons that could have been expanded upon into many many more.

     

    Third, the rewards are uninteresting.  I imagine most players will never need anything from a dungeon.  I myself only needed tears from ascalonian catacombs for a build I was theorycrafting, and I really did not care at all about anything else out of any of the dungeons at all.  This is directly tied in with GW2's original "horizontal progression" goal, but as you may have noticed, they have been backing further and further away from that goal without remedying the decisions already made on that basis.

     

    Outside of dungeons though, I think it has been mostly a good thing.  When there are large scale boss fights in zones, you just run in and participate.  You do not need to run around the major city hubs trying to find an appropriately geared tank and healers with experience.  You just show up and go.  The tougher world boss fights require enough organization to make them difficult without doing anything that excludes anybody with any build and any level of knowledge of the fight.  Of course, there are far more world bosses that are easy than hard, but all in all I found the absence of the trinity worked very very well in these settings.

     

    Finally, an important note:  though they got rid of tanks, arenanet has not gotten rid of healing - they have just changed how it is done so drastically that it does not resemble healing in other MMOs at all.  There are builds for elementalist and engineer that put out silly high amounts of healing, and strong healing builds for other classes.  All heals are AoE though, not targeted, and most if not all the healing is tied to doing something else - dodging or attacking.  At first I liked the organization involved in quick stacks for AoE heals but it is really something I think they need to remove from the game.  The AoE heals seem like a problem to me in every area of the game, and I think it would be more fun and more challenging without them.

     

    Edit:  an additional note - at this point, though, I wouldn't trust ANet to develop their way out of a paper bag.  Arenanet could be trying to fix a bug with an NPC, and their solution will be to buff warriors and tell media sources that "more people than ever" are loving their living story and WvW despite player complaints.  I do not know where the bright minds at that company have gone, but they certainly are not the ones making decisions now.

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,206

    I went into it ready to leave the trinity behind and move on.  I wasn't expecting just how much i missed the trinity and large scale group content.  

    What i want is an expanded trinity like we had before it was homogenized into this tank/healer/dps nonsense.

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Alders

    I went into it ready to leave the trinity behind and move on.  I wasn't expecting just how much i missed the trinity and large scale group content.  

    What i want is an expanded trinity like we had before it was homogenized into this tank/healer/dps nonsense.

    I'm only assuming you never went on to do Tequatl world boss or The Great Jungle Wurm. Because at those bosses you actually have groups with tasks at hand then and what you said is a complete fallacy. You want large scale group content? Well you DO have it. It's just not instanced. It's open world content where everybody can participate. If you feel bad about it, your guild can spawn their very own Tequatl or other hardcore boss that requires a level of organization. Crazy right?

    The amount of posters in Gw2 sub-forums while knowing nothing about the game is too damn high imo.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Alders

    I went into it ready to leave the trinity behind and move on.  I wasn't expecting just how much i missed the trinity and large scale group content.  

    What i want is an expanded trinity like we had before it was homogenized into this tank/healer/dps nonsense.

    I'm only assuming you never went on to do Tequatl world boss or The Great Jungle Wurm. Because at those bosses you actually have groups with tasks at hand then and what you said is a complete fallacy. You want large scale group content? Well you DO have it. It's just not instanced. It's open world content where everybody can participate. If you feel bad about it, your guild can spawn their very own Tequatl or other hardcore boss that requires a level of organization. Crazy right?

    The amount of posters in Gw2 sub-forums while knowing nothing about the game is too damn high imo.

    That is two events. Not much in the way of content. The mechanics in those events do not rely on individual class roles like he was referring to.....

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Alders

    I went into it ready to leave the trinity behind and move on.  I wasn't expecting just how much i missed the trinity and large scale group content.  

    What i want is an expanded trinity like we had before it was homogenized into this tank/healer/dps nonsense.

    I'm only assuming you never went on to do Tequatl world boss or The Great Jungle Wurm. Because at those bosses you actually have groups with tasks at hand then and what you said is a complete fallacy. You want large scale group content? Well you DO have it. It's just not instanced. It's open world content where everybody can participate. If you feel bad about it, your guild can spawn their very own Tequatl or other hardcore boss that requires a level of organization. Crazy right?

    The amount of posters in Gw2 sub-forums while knowing nothing about the game is too damn high imo.

    That is two events. Not much in the way of content. The mechanics in those events do not rely on individual class roles like he was referring to.....

    Or The Boss Blitz.

    And a boss requiring a specific class is always great... NOT.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • netosampaionetosampaio Member UncommonPosts: 23
    GW2 dungeons are a complete mess
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie Member UncommonPosts: 430
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    what he said ^

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977

    It actually recminds me of back then whe i still did dungeons, i sarted group for AC and 1 guy joined and ask if he can bring his lowbie noob friend along for first dungeon run in GW2. Of course i said, no problem, evenif he doesnt know what hes doing dungeons are easy.

    So the noob joined and he spent 90% time facing dirt. I mean, we tried to rez him but 10s after he was down again, so i just said "watch the fight mechanics and what we do" ( there was NO cheesing on my runs). So 4 of us finished with no wipes. Barely any downed.

    Now imagine 5 of these running a dungeon. And then those same 5 dudes come to a forum whining like "dungeons are complete mess" "www is just zerging" whaaaa whaaa whaaa (just read this thread)

    Everey time someone starts those whines i by reflex remember that noob and ROFL about it.

    Now, problem is these same people have illusion of being "best playa eva" and dont want to admit to themselves they just suck at it and blame the game for it.

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    I feel that WvW is an unmitigated disaster at this point as the unbelievably negative response to hacking in the EU and win trading in the US has shown.  The past season was the most awful thing they could possibly have implemented, and I saw no positive views on it anywhere.  Even now, ArenaNet cannot keep their WvW forums clean of complaints - even with their moderators locking and/or deleting every topic with unhappy players.

     

    For those that aren't aware - Gold league in the EU last season was plagued with massive amounts of hacking.  Weeks of players complaining about it were shoved under the rug.  In the NA gold league, two of the three full servers ganged up on the third, trading each other wins to guarantee they would come first and second, while having no actual competition until the final week to decide who got first.  In the NA silver league, many guilds jumped to the Henge of Denravi server and brought a complete blowout in every single matchup by having far more players - but the drastically outmanned servers had to keep playing against them for 9 weeks.

     

     

    ArenaNets response to these things:

     

    Hacking:  Do not post about exploits or name players or talk about matchups.  No further response.

    Win Trading:  The head dev said he thought it was interesting and later mentioned he played for one of the two win trading servers.

    HoD blowing out NA Silver: They are considering making matchups a bit shorter.

     

    I really have lost faith in them as a company.  It is not like these are new issues to WvW - these are simply being brought to new extremes - and still not getting properly addressed.  Every one of these issues has been brought to their attention multiple times before.  They either do not know how to or do not care to address them.

     

    This is a bit of a sore point for me as I was really excited about WvW before the game came out, and continued playing it as I waited for them to iron out what was originally a shorter list of issues.  They did do a few things to improve WvW - at one point they even managed to fix the lag (I had no idea how they messed it up so it came back).  Unfortunately whoever was giving them good ideas seems to be MIA, and the rest of the company is making a mess of whats left of this game.

  • ManasongManasong Member Posts: 208
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Which has been discussed to death uncountable times. Mechanics-wise the simplest solution to solve the zerging problem is to remove the AoE cap so we can punish zerging effectively, AoE caps actually work in favor of zerging the way it is now. Buffing siege weapons is a bad idea because it requires very little skill to break a zerg, even less skill than a common zergling, it's also a reason why everyone laughs at the enemy when they use AC's in the open field.

     

    As for the OP, although the harder content in the game requires coordination it offers very little rewards to make it worthy, you can get pretty much anything you want from dungeons doing the "easy mode" in which you just stack the mobs in a corner and DPS them all day.

  • VicDynamoVicDynamo Member Posts: 234
    Imagine that moment when the tank dies and everybody says o crap while the boss does whatever it wants? That's a GW2 dungeon.
  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    what he said ^

    what he said ^

     

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • DestaiDestai Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Terribly executed. While claiming "no trinity" in a way you are forced to a rather primitive one focusing on the three points "Control, Support, Damage" which oddly enough are what the original trinity was created from. They tried to push away from the trinity and it only enforced groups to NEED the trinity elements to succeed. 

     

    You will die a lot if you try and go in with just any makeup. You won't find much you can do if you aren't packing control and other elements. There is very little 'skill' can do to make up for not having the right kit to deal with the problems. Its just a giant uncontrolled mess of an experience in dungeons. In my time I found that trash mobs were the hardest thing in any dungeons I played, with bosses being a joke otherwise.

     

    Without the trinity the only way to make it 'fair' would be to take out completely the difficulty. Guildwars 2 just shows the importance of the trinity, even if the trinity doesn't need to be stuck in the more specific "Tank/Heal/DPS" notch we too often consider it to be over its initially "Control/Support/Damage" roots.

    even before the game came out you have always been very negative towards GW2 with most of your posts being trolling because you dont the features in the game. This entire post is nonsense. IF you play GW2 you know that it takes player cooperation to clear a dungeon. If you go with the old school wow mentality you will wipe over and over. It is a different game with different combat mechanics. Like i said in my post above, without an organized teamwork the wipe is imminent. If you dont like the feature, that is totally OK, but dont go spreading misinformation just because you dont like it.

    Even as someone who plays and loves Gw2 - he's right. Players are still trying to find a way to make a trinity work in the game, albeit in a subtle way. Guild Wars 2 has done a great job on a lot of things, but the dungeons are messy. There are no aggro mechanics, no tanking. It's a game of hot potato for aggro. The fact that many players use an exploit to complete dungeons speaks volumes about the class design. It's a good game, but ArenaNet should be less defiant of what makes RPGs earn their namesake.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,747
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Terribly executed. While claiming "no trinity" in a way you are forced to a rather primitive one focusing on the three points "Control, Support, Damage" which oddly enough are what the original trinity was created from. They tried to push away from the trinity and it only enforced groups to NEED the trinity elements to succeed. 

     

    You will die a lot if you try and go in with just any makeup. You won't find much you can do if you aren't packing control and other elements. There is very little 'skill' can do to make up for not having the right kit to deal with the problems. Its just a giant uncontrolled mess of an experience in dungeons. In my time I found that trash mobs were the hardest thing in any dungeons I played, with bosses being a joke otherwise.

     

    Without the trinity the only way to make it 'fair' would be to take out completely the difficulty. Guildwars 2 just shows the importance of the trinity, even if the trinity doesn't need to be stuck in the more specific "Tank/Heal/DPS" notch we too often consider it to be over its initially "Control/Support/Damage" roots.

    even before the game came out you have always been very negative towards GW2 with most of your posts being trolling because you dont the features in the game. This entire post is nonsense. IF you play GW2 you know that it takes player cooperation to clear a dungeon. If you go with the old school wow mentality you will wipe over and over. It is a different game with different combat mechanics. Like i said in my post above, without an organized teamwork the wipe is imminent. If you dont like the feature, that is totally OK, but dont go spreading misinformation just because you dont like it.

    Actually, the trinity is suppose to be tank / healer / crowd control.....not sure when it changed to dps, as that role was delegated to anyone you brought along only after you had the main three covered.

    image
  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Originally posted by Baitness
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Thats what all the zerglings say.

    People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

    Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

    You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

    Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

    Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

    Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

    All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

    It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

    Unfortunately, you are talking to bad players who think they are awesome and their 5 man team should be able to take anything no matter what. 10 good players aint gonna take 20+ good players down 99,9 % of the time if the game is actually any good.

    If you prefer running with smaller team you have to accept that if you meet larger force of good players you will lose. End of. And in GW2 smaller teams of good players can take down larger group of bad players. Repeatedly. All is as should be, i would say that its by far best balanced MMO on the market.

    And yes, if you lose by a true zerg its your fault, stop whining and get better (what eludes these people also, because in GW2 certain level of skill is necessary and by their posts its obvious they lack any skill and they prove it by every new post they make, i guess thats why theyre so pi**ed off)

    And no, not all good players run with guilds, so if you lose from a "zerg" there might be core of good players that actually have it HARDER because they dont play non-stop together AND bunch have rally bots all around.

    But the bottom line is www is fun and constanly full, guilds, zergs, roamers, name it.

    I feel that WvW is an unmitigated disaster at this point as the unbelievably negative response to hacking in the EU and win trading in the US has shown.  The past season was the most awful thing they could possibly have implemented, and I saw no positive views on it anywhere.  Even now, ArenaNet cannot keep their WvW forums clean of complaints - even with their moderators locking and/or deleting every topic with unhappy players.

     

    For those that aren't aware - Gold league in the EU last season was plagued with massive amounts of hacking.  Weeks of players complaining about it were shoved under the rug.  In the NA gold league, two of the three full servers ganged up on the third, trading each other wins to guarantee they would come first and second, while having no actual competition until the final week to decide who got first.  In the NA silver league, many guilds jumped to the Henge of Denravi server and brought a complete blowout in every single matchup by having far more players - but the drastically outmanned servers had to keep playing against them for 9 weeks.

     

     

    ArenaNets response to these things:

     

    Hacking:  Do not post about exploits or name players or talk about matchups.  No further response.

    Win Trading:  The head dev said he thought it was interesting and later mentioned he played for one of the two win trading servers.

    HoD blowing out NA Silver: They are considering making matchups a bit shorter.

     

    I really have lost faith in them as a company.  It is not like these are new issues to WvW - these are simply being brought to new extremes - and still not getting properly addressed.  Every one of these issues has been brought to their attention multiple times before.  They either do not know how to or do not care to address them.

     

    This is a bit of a sore point for me as I was really excited about WvW before the game came out, and continued playing it as I waited for them to iron out what was originally a shorter list of issues.  They did do a few things to improve WvW - at one point they even managed to fix the lag (I had no idea how they messed it up so it came back).  Unfortunately whoever was giving them good ideas seems to be MIA, and the rest of the company is making a mess of whats left of this game.

     

    That's more of an indication of todays playerbase.  Although Anet should step up and do something.

    I've been saying this since GW2 released -  No matter how many factions you implement to try and balance the outcome, the players will gravitate to the winning side instead of ganging up on the top dog.  Server and faction pride mean absolutely nothing today.  Anet or anyone else can't fix that.

  • OminousDawnOminousDawn Member Posts: 75

     

    People are creatures of habit.  If the first MMORPG you ever played was WoW, or if all you've really played are trinity based MMORPGs, you will more than likely have a hard time adjusting to anything different because that is all you've known.  And then you have those players who are used to feeling important because they play healers and tanks and when that "specialness" is taken away from them they feel empty because they are no longer a special snow flake.

    Its amazing how everyone is always whining about WoW clones and when a game dares to be different they criticized the game from here to high heaven because it is not like WoW.  Truth be told there is a comfort level built into trinity based games.  Generally speaking they are just snooze fests were players camp in one place and just spam the same rotations over and over again.

    GW2 is a very good game.  It may seem easy at times but a large part contributing to that is the fact there is no death penalty.  I guarantee you if there was a death penalty the same players who are saying the game is too easy now would be weeping like babies because things can, and often do, go bad really quickly, quite often.. 

    The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>

    ... it's called an FPS.

    Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.

  • STYNKFYSTSTYNKFYST Member Posts: 290

    Game has been out for how long? And has TONS of fans and player (like it or not).

     

    So...NOW...this month...we have a NEW TRINITY POST? That we are supposed to take seriously?

     

    Please play something else...no trinity here (notice how I don't give enough attention to it as to capitalize the "T" in trinity?)

     

    Really though...we still talkin about this?

  • OminousDawnOminousDawn Member Posts: 75
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
     

    Even as someone who plays and loves Gw2 - he's right. Players are still trying to find a way to make a trinity work in the game, albeit in a subtle way. Guild Wars 2 has done a great job on a lot of things, but the dungeons are messy. There are no aggro mechanics, no tanking. It's a game of hot potato for aggro. The fact that many players use an exploit to complete dungeons speaks volumes about the class design. It's a good game, but ArenaNet should be less defiant of what makes RPGs earn their namesake.

     

    It is messy, with no aggro and no tanking by design.  It's an ARPG.  Whereas the key to a trinity based system is a controlled environment where everyone has defined roles, an ARPG is by its very nature a hectic, action packed, and unpredictable environment were all the players have to think on their feet according to how the fight is going.

    I'm not sure why where comparing the two.  One is an apple, the other an orange.

    The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>

    ... it's called an FPS.

    Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.

  • STYNKFYSTSTYNKFYST Member Posts: 290
    Originally posted by OminousDawn
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
     

    Even as someone who plays and loves Gw2 - he's right. Players are still trying to find a way to make a trinity work in the game, albeit in a subtle way. Guild Wars 2 has done a great job on a lot of things, but the dungeons are messy. There are no aggro mechanics, no tanking. It's a game of hot potato for aggro. The fact that many players use an exploit to complete dungeons speaks volumes about the class design. It's a good game, but ArenaNet should be less defiant of what makes RPGs earn their namesake.

     

    It is messy, with no aggro and no tanking by design.  It's an ARPG.  Whereas the key to a trinity based system is a controlled environment where everyone has defined roles, an ARPG is by its very nature a hectic, action packed, and unpredictable environment were all the players have to think on their feet according to how the fight is going.

    I'm not sure why where comparing the two.  One is an apple, the other an orange.

    No one is old and the other is new....the old one is just a crutch for mediocre gamers.

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Jaldren

    Honest and simple question:

     

    I have been playing for over 15 years MMOs, most of the time as healer. Playing a game without the trinity system is extremely weird for me, despite the game being so good (exploration, social events, constant updates...)

     

    But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

     

    Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

    It's simple really.

    You play dungeons in GW2, as if your tank and healer just died.  You dodge, run, reflect, block, and heal yourself.  If someone goes down, you revive.

    In my opinion, it could've been really great, but the A.I. makes it terrible, and dungeons are the worst aspect of the game.

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Jaldren

    Honest and simple question:

     

    I have been playing for over 15 years MMOs, most of the time as healer. Playing a game without the trinity system is extremely weird for me, despite the game being so good (exploration, social events, constant updates...)

     

    But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

     

    Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

    It's simple really.

    You play dungeons in GW2, as if your tank and healer just died.  You dodge, run, reflect, block, and heal yourself.  If someone goes down, you revive.

    In my opinion, it could've been really great, but the A.I. makes it terrible, and dungeons are the worst aspect of the game.

    Idk man, I did a marathon few days ago. 16/26 paths cleared I even streamed the thing, had some viewers even though Gw2 is more fun to play than watch. I'm pretty sure I had fun. And I was mostly using a pug. Although Twitch is going to delete my footage because iz too long, 8 hours Q_Q 

Sign In or Register to comment.