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No trinity impressions?

JaldrenJaldren Member UncommonPosts: 363

Honest and simple question:

 

I have been playing for over 15 years MMOs, most of the time as healer. Playing a game without the trinity system is extremely weird for me, despite the game being so good (exploration, social events, constant updates...)

 

But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

 

Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

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Comments

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,720

    5 dps can do any dungeons, it takes teamwork. It is more difficult because there are no set roles but IMO that makes teamwork more valuable. Those who prefer to afk in dungeons or stand still ineficiently spamming taunt or heals in other mmos hate GW2 because they have to actually be active and without organization there will be an imminent wipe. GW2 dungeons are the Dark souls of mmos.

    I personally love it, but i do realise that ANET could add a healing based weapon (similar to ESO) to help with the team healing in dungeons.

    I dont do end game content in mmos so i dont know about the Fractals of the Mist (my end game starts when i create the character and ends when i move to another game)





  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    Terribly executed. While claiming "no trinity" in a way you are forced to a rather primitive one focusing on the three points "Control, Support, Damage" which oddly enough are what the original trinity was created from. They tried to push away from the trinity and it only enforced groups to NEED the trinity elements to succeed. 

     

    You will die a lot if you try and go in with just any makeup. You won't find much you can do if you aren't packing control and other elements. There is very little 'skill' can do to make up for not having the right kit to deal with the problems. Its just a giant uncontrolled mess of an experience in dungeons. In my time I found that trash mobs were the hardest thing in any dungeons I played, with bosses being a joke otherwise.

     

    Without the trinity the only way to make it 'fair' would be to take out completely the difficulty. Guildwars 2 just shows the importance of the trinity, even if the trinity doesn't need to be stuck in the more specific "Tank/Heal/DPS" notch we too often consider it to be over its initially "Control/Support/Damage" roots.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,720
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Terribly executed. While claiming "no trinity" in a way you are forced to a rather primitive one focusing on the three points "Control, Support, Damage" which oddly enough are what the original trinity was created from. They tried to push away from the trinity and it only enforced groups to NEED the trinity elements to succeed. 

     

    You will die a lot if you try and go in with just any makeup. You won't find much you can do if you aren't packing control and other elements. There is very little 'skill' can do to make up for not having the right kit to deal with the problems. Its just a giant uncontrolled mess of an experience in dungeons. In my time I found that trash mobs were the hardest thing in any dungeons I played, with bosses being a joke otherwise.

     

    Without the trinity the only way to make it 'fair' would be to take out completely the difficulty. Guildwars 2 just shows the importance of the trinity, even if the trinity doesn't need to be stuck in the more specific "Tank/Heal/DPS" notch we too often consider it to be over its initially "Control/Support/Damage" roots.

    even before the game came out you have always been very negative towards GW2 with most of your posts being trolling because you dont the features in the game. This entire post is nonsense. IF you play GW2 you know that it takes player cooperation to clear a dungeon. If you go with the old school wow mentality you will wipe over and over. It is a different game with different combat mechanics. Like i said in my post above, without an organized teamwork the wipe is imminent. If you dont like the feature, that is totally OK, but dont go spreading misinformation just because you dont like it.





  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191

    Yes 5 DPS go into a dungeon and depending on the dungeon they can finish it even without any coordination.  sometimes teamwork is required but unless you realy want speedruns that teamwork is very simple and limited. For me its quite boring but not worse than some of the trivial trinity systems. On the other hand some decent trinity+-mechanics(having a real support role as a fourth role) are much better and i rather want developers improving on that mechanics than on experimenting like gw2 does.

  • F*$& the trinity. F*&% the non-trinity. What a game needs is a proper class system.

    Something making available roles like tank/off tank/CC/heals/buffs/DPS/Puller. The trinity is there but there is room for more than just dps/tank/ heals. I'm an old EQ vet, in case you can't tell.

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613

    Well, no trinity usually (and definitly in the case of GW2) results in a lot of jumping around, kiting, avoiding red stuff on the ground ect.

     

    Rewarding? Uhm,... not in my book. Noone talks to eachother, noone is dependend on the other... you basically solo next to 3-5 other solo player and call that a group. Less social interaction, now even in a damn social inviroment.

     

    Next step: make it possible to talk to eachother, without having to... talk to eachother!

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802

    Regular dungeons can be done with hard zerging.

    Fractals at higher levels however...

     

    The last few weeks our static group faced several wipes - this weekend our elementalist healer was finally back.

    No wipes and we never got stuck on scenes like breaking the 2 seals on the colossus.

     

    The true power of a healer and condition cleanser is especially noticeable at the Mai fight. God how I hate that boss.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • MothanosMothanos Member UncommonPosts: 1,910

    Horrible......realy something i wont do ever again nor spend any money on it.
    its a mess of dodging zerging jumping running around like a headless chicken.

    1st i was excited about it, but after playing it for 3 months i just had enough of this style of combat.

    I take Tab Target + Healer / Tank in my mmorpg any day of the week instead of the "innovatition mechanics" that some mmo's are using.

    I hope EQN doesnt make the same mistake GW2 made...would be a no go from the get go.

  • Swids2010Swids2010 Member Posts: 244

    I came to this game with a group of mates and I had plans on what I wanted to play but in the end just ended up being another warrior because at the time the only way to get a group was if it was 4 warrior 1 Mesmer I think it may have change slightly now but not sure stopped playing about 6 months ago.

    I also always played a healer and tried to create a Guardian that gave of as much healing as possible but it just wasn't required people preferred more Damage dealers.

    image
  • velitevelite Member UncommonPosts: 2

    To start, there is no endgame content in GW2, but about that you will know for yourself.

    Some might say the dungeons takes group strategy, but lets be honest, only the hi lvl fractals require some strategy, the other dungeons and events require only movementation and strong DPS. Of course, some people think that running lake crazy chicken is some kind of strategy hehehe.

    But if you want to "feel" like a healer (waste of your time, really) you can try to go water elementalist or guardian.

     

  • JaldrenJaldren Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    Well, no trinity usually (and definitly in the case of GW2) results in a lot of jumping around, kiting, avoiding red stuff on the ground ect.

     

    Rewarding? Uhm,... not in my book. Noone talks to eachother, noone is dependend on the other... you basically solo next to 3-5 other solo player and call that a group. Less social interaction, now even in a damn social inviroment.

     

    Next step: make it possible to talk to eachother, without having to... talk to eachother!

    That is exactly the feeling I get. What baffles me is the insane amount of score and talk this game has. So why do people enjoy it if it's so messed up?

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie Member UncommonPosts: 430

    In GW2 it takes teamwork and alot of dodging and controlling your enviorment to complete dungeons, some are easy were you can run through and some are harder.  

    You can complete dungeons with no healer or tank just team effort and thats the point. I think the dungeon system if very fun cause it offers an active roll to play on everyones part not just standing in on spot throwing fireballs until the boss is dead.

    Although I think that Anet could make better dungeons cause some of them really needs to work over cause they are to easy.

    My guild and I have tryied for fun to go trinity in a dungeon aswell with healer, tank and 3 Dps and this worked out just fine aswell with a water elementalist and a warrior tank with healing shouts. so even if there isn't any trinity you can still make a pretty good one but the healer cant keep a tank alive the entire fight all the time and som other form of support is always needed.

    But this is what I like about the dungeons in GW2, there is no whining about your spec cause you didn't optimize it to do the most DPS or players whining about that your class isn't welcome or something like that, everyone can play no matter what class or spec and this I like.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Jaldren
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    Well, no trinity usually (and definitly in the case of GW2) results in a lot of jumping around, kiting, avoiding red stuff on the ground ect.

     

    Rewarding? Uhm,... not in my book. Noone talks to eachother, noone is dependend on the other... you basically solo next to 3-5 other solo player and call that a group. Less social interaction, now even in a damn social inviroment.

     

    Next step: make it possible to talk to eachother, without having to... talk to eachother!

    That is exactly the feeling I get. What baffles me is the insane amount of score and talk this game has. So why do people enjoy it if it's so messed up?

    Because it isn't so messed up and the problems the actual players identify don't include kiting and avoiding red circles.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

     

    Although I think that Anet could make better dungeons cause some of them really needs to work over cause they are to easy.

    Of course those are the ones the large majority actually play.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie Member UncommonPosts: 430
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

     

    Although I think that Anet could make better dungeons cause some of them really needs to work over cause they are to easy.

    Of course those are the ones the large majority actually play.

    Yes I agree, they should make the harder ones have a better loot so more people would play them to.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Jaldren
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    Well, no trinity usually (and definitly in the case of GW2) results in a lot of jumping around, kiting, avoiding red stuff on the ground ect.

     

    Rewarding? Uhm,... not in my book. Noone talks to eachother, noone is dependend on the other... you basically solo next to 3-5 other solo player and call that a group. Less social interaction, now even in a damn social inviroment.

     

    Next step: make it possible to talk to eachother, without having to... talk to eachother!

    That is exactly the feeling I get. What baffles me is the insane amount of score and talk this game has. So why do people enjoy it if it's so messed up?

    I had more social interaction in GW2 than any other MMO.

    Messed up? Its messed up for bad players unfortunately so they go back to trinity, is much more simple, no need for coordination or anything, where pinnacle is "dont stand in the fire".

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Jaldren

    Honest and simple question:

    I have been playing for over 15 years MMOs, most of the time as healer. Playing a game without the trinity system is extremely weird for me, despite the game being so good (exploration, social events, constant updates...)

    But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

    Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

    The only way to beat the harder content is by good teamwork, just like in a trinity game.

    If the entire party just act like trinity DPS the fractal/dungeon will fail. You will need to keep an eye on the entire group, get up fallen players, buff, heal (if you can that is, even a thief heal helps a lot at the right time), put conditions on bosses and so on.

    The hard part is getting into it when you are used to trinity but it actually comes pretty quick if you play with a good team. And just like in trinity games is the open world not a good place to learn group dynamics.

    As an experienced healer you would make an excellent elementalist, they have more heals than any other class as well as other support abilities but you will also need to do DPS at times.

    Actually are the people who usually have hardest to get into the mechanics the ones who play DPS in trinity games, both tanks and healers are use to keep an eye out on everyone else.

    Besides all that, positioning, movement (at the right time) and dodging are the abilities that makes you ace the tough content. Standing still will get you killed fast.

    Anyways, I been playing MMOs since M59 came out '96 and I like GW2s combat. Could use more skills though, wouldn't mind if they added more with an expansion.

    And an Ele uses 25 skills during combat BTW, if you play one you need to know exactly what skill to use at the right moment. It takes some time to master but if you do you will be popular in your guild. And as in any game there are plenty of players that never reach the hard content at all.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Beelzebobbie

    Although I think that Anet could make better dungeons cause some of them really needs to work over cause they are to easy.

    Of course those are the ones the large majority actually play.

    Not only that, the dungeons have been nerfed several times due to whiny players. I wish they kept the difficulty from the first beta weekend, it was awesome. :(

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004
    Originally posted by Jaldren
    Originally posted by Rattenmann

    Well, no trinity usually (and definitly in the case of GW2) results in a lot of jumping around, kiting, avoiding red stuff on the ground ect.

     

    Rewarding? Uhm,... not in my book. Noone talks to eachother, noone is dependend on the other... you basically solo next to 3-5 other solo player and call that a group. Less social interaction, now even in a damn social inviroment.

     

    Next step: make it possible to talk to eachother, without having to... talk to eachother!

    That is exactly the feeling I get. What baffles me is the insane amount of score and talk this game has. So why do people enjoy it if it's so messed up?

    For me I don't find dungeon to be the strong point of the game.  As in I dont' think the developer empahsis their resource on dungeon design.

    The strong point is probably the game is design for casuals.  And they try to keep people interesting by releasing living story every couple weeks.  And they have tones of event regularly, a bunch of mini games, and pretty looking armor if you are in to that.  

    I think by design having only 1 tier of gear is hard for them to reward people.  I ran a dungeon called aetherblade a few times with new people, and every time I finish, people just say they'll never do it again.  Since even though the dungeon is some what interesting, it really dont' reward you with much.  Since you can find the same tier gear elsewhere much easier.

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    5 dps can do any dungeons, it takes teamwork. It is more difficult because there are no set roles but IMO that makes teamwork more valuable. Those who prefer to afk in dungeons or stand still ineficiently spamming taunt or heals in other mmos hate GW2 because they have to actually be active and without organization there will be an imminent wipe. GW2 dungeons are the Dark souls of mmos.

    I personally love it, but i do realise that ANET could add a healing based weapon (similar to ESO) to help with the team healing in dungeons.

    I dont do end game content in mmos so i dont know about the Fractals of the Mist (my end game starts when i create the character and ends when i move to another game)

    Teamwork?  All I ever saw was a bunch of players running around like chickens with their heads cut off avoiding NPCs that would 2 shot you.

    Trinity allows people to play the roles they enjoy and just because a game has a trinity system doesn't mean you can just stand around doing nothing but spamming spells.  That's an extremely hyperbolic statement and you see many games out there (even those without strict trinity systems) that allow people to do such.

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • seraphynxseraphynx Member UncommonPosts: 147
    No trinity works well in GW2.. issue is many people don't want to actually learn to play anything new and just assume all you do is spam dps.. if you actually learn the classes, the boons, the combos, the CC and get a group of others that have done the same it's pretty amazing experience.. if you are with a group that just runs around spamming crap randomly it is a mess and isn't much fun.. so like many games competent players make the experience
  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424
    I've always either liked playing a healer/buffer or a tanky meatshield, but in GW2 there really isn't a defined role.  This is the biggest problem I have with the game.
  • PiratePetePiratePete Member Posts: 105

    You can still be a decent healer in the game, Eles and Guardians are quite well versed in healing other party members. 

     

    The game though is lacking in some areas but excels in others, so much so that other mmos are quite boring to me when they use the dated mechanics.

     

    Other than that the 5 dps groups are possible, and a lot of times faster. For awhile COF dungeon was 4 glassy warriors and a mesmer and it was quite effective and quick to finish. 

  • PiratePetePiratePete Member Posts: 105
    Originally posted by Quesa
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    5 dps can do any dungeons, it takes teamwork. It is more difficult because there are no set roles but IMO that makes teamwork more valuable. Those who prefer to afk in dungeons or stand still ineficiently spamming taunt or heals in other mmos hate GW2 because they have to actually be active and without organization there will be an imminent wipe. GW2 dungeons are the Dark souls of mmos.

    I personally love it, but i do realise that ANET could add a healing based weapon (similar to ESO) to help with the team healing in dungeons.

    I dont do end game content in mmos so i dont know about the Fractals of the Mist (my end game starts when i create the character and ends when i move to another game)

    Teamwork?  All I ever saw was a bunch of players running around like chickens with their heads cut off avoiding NPCs that would 2 shot you.

    Trinity allows people to play the roles they enjoy and just because a game has a trinity system doesn't mean you can just stand around doing nothing but spamming spells.  That's an extremely hyperbolic statement and you see many games out there (even those without strict trinity systems) that allow people to do such.

    Trinity just allows people to blame people. Oh we died. Healer screwed us. Oh tank is up but we died... Tank's fault. Oh we all die because it took too long.. DPS sucks. 

    And it makes it very exclusionary. If you play a class there are many of gl getting a party because everyone and their mother fills the same role as you whereas if you're the rare healer class you're like a messiah to the players and this is in itself is a problem because many become elitists that refuse to group with people who don't fit their arbitrary requirements because it's their way or no way. 

     

    And there is a lot of teamwork with GW2, admittedly many don't choose to use it. 

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by PiratePete
    Originally posted by Quesa
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    5 dps can do any dungeons, it takes teamwork. It is more difficult because there are no set roles but IMO that makes teamwork more valuable. Those who prefer to afk in dungeons or stand still ineficiently spamming taunt or heals in other mmos hate GW2 because they have to actually be active and without organization there will be an imminent wipe. GW2 dungeons are the Dark souls of mmos.

    I personally love it, but i do realise that ANET could add a healing based weapon (similar to ESO) to help with the team healing in dungeons.

    I dont do end game content in mmos so i dont know about the Fractals of the Mist (my end game starts when i create the character and ends when i move to another game)

    Teamwork?  All I ever saw was a bunch of players running around like chickens with their heads cut off avoiding NPCs that would 2 shot you.

    Trinity allows people to play the roles they enjoy and just because a game has a trinity system doesn't mean you can just stand around doing nothing but spamming spells.  That's an extremely hyperbolic statement and you see many games out there (even those without strict trinity systems) that allow people to do such.

    Trinity just allows people to blame people. Oh we died. Healer screwed us. Oh tank is up but we died... Tank's fault. Oh we all die because it took too long.. DPS sucks. 

    And it makes it very exclusionary. If you play a class there are many of gl getting a party because everyone and their mother fills the same role as you whereas if you're the rare healer class you're like a messiah to the players and this is in itself is a problem because many become elitists that refuse to group with people who don't fit their arbitrary requirements because it's their way or no way. 

     

    And there is a lot of teamwork with GW2, admittedly many don't choose to use it. 

    Everything you said happens in both types of games.  Gamers always blame others for their own faults and they will always make exclusionary decisions for arbitrary and hypocritical reasons.

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