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Developers don't listen to players, they follow the data

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  • TbauTbau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 401
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...is one of the most effective marketing tools. Seems it worked well on you. So, I guess your answer is "No, I have no data and I'm just citing personal belief as fact." Fair enough. 

     Yes, only the part of realty that you agree with exists and the rest is made up and should be ignored. Fair enough.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Devs today are still trying to make great games. Devs of old were trying to make great games. No change.

    Devs of old built the game because they believed it could be great and they could make money. Devs today built the game because they believe it could be great and they could make money. No change.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • FoobarxFoobarx Member Posts: 451
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Devs today are still trying to make great games. Devs of old were trying to make great games. No change.

    Devs of old built the game because they believed it could be great and they could make money. Devs today built the game because they believe it could be great and they could make money. No change.

     

    Actually, there is a difference... devs today are copying what they've seen and done before.

     

    Just look at movies... more remakes than actually new ideas.  The creativity has left the building.  Redoing the work of others has become the norm.  Games... same thing.

     

    That is what has changed... 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...is one of the most effective marketing tools. Seems it worked well on you. So, I guess your answer is "No, I have no data and I'm just citing personal belief as fact." Fair enough. 

     Yes, only the part of realty that you agree with exists and the rest is made up and should be ignored. Fair enough.

    Definitely willing to try to see it from your angle here, but you still haven't answered any of the questions or provided any data to support your rather odd assertions. It's great that you want to believe these things, but it's kinda silly to act that cocky when the "realty" is each time you have been confronted with something that might challenge your belief you lash out with insults or, worse, a direct statement that you will ignore anything other than what fits your preconceptions.  

     

    Cheers, kiddo. image

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    I didn't say there was no differences at all in the genre. I said there was no differences between old and new devs in that both are trying to make money and make great games
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    They may have different ideas about what great means and how to get it but they are still trying to make great games.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Foobarx
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Devs today are still trying to make great games. Devs of old were trying to make great games. No change.

    Devs of old built the game because they believed it could be great and they could make money. Devs today built the game because they believe it could be great and they could make money. No change.

     

    Actually, there is a difference... devs today are copying what they've seen and done before.

    Just look at movies... more remakes than actually new ideas.  The creativity has left the building.  Redoing the work of others has become the norm.  Games... same thing.

    That is what has changed... 

    You could also say the original devs were copying what they'd seen and done before. The early RPG devs played pen-n-paper and the PLATO games, the early MMO devs came from the MUDs. I completely agree there is far more copying now than pre-2004, but devs both now and then were trying to make great games. This hasn't changed.

    "The creativity has left the building" is a bit of a Catch-22 in reasoning, as examples of innovation or exploration into new territory are dismissed as "well that's not an MMO" and examples of the latest iteration on the theme is pointed at as examples just being a copy. Self-fulfilling argument. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    And before mmo they were copying spg and beforemovies they were copying radio and plays. ..

    Devs and companies haven't really changed well ever since humans first developed anything.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    He he he!  "kiddo".  :-)

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    And before mmo they were copying spg and beforemovies they were copying radio and plays. ..

    Devs and companies haven't really changed well ever since humans first developed anything.

    I don't see a problem if the new stuff created is fun.

    Sure .. Winter Soldier is a sequel, and the character Cap America is not new .. but hey, it is still a fun, great summer movie. So what is the problem?

    Similarly, Tomb Raider is a re-make, and there is no mechanics in the game that is totally new .. but hey, it is a well made, polished game with a lot of fun (at least to me, and many critics). So what is the problem?

    You don't need something 100% new to make good entertainment.

    And there are stuff that is new ...

    MOBAs .. instanced pvp games ... Destiny .. .all influenced by MMO and move beyond the confines of traditional MMOs. So all is good.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Internet access was pretty widespread in developed countries by 2003--and that's where most of the revenue comes from, not a billion people in China.  Playing computer games, even online games, was pretty common by then.  But MMORPGs weren't popular.

    False.

     

    The most popular online games outside of MMORPGs were Battle.net games which was only popular in South Korea outside of America, the next in line were Quake and Unreal Tournament games, and again. Only popular in the west, not Asia.

    There is zero data that points to online gaming being popular pre 2003. Even in Japan where Final Fantasy was immensely popular, FF11 sold more in America. If you look at non-western MMORPGs, South Korea was only place they were popular and even NCSoft and Nexon credit the popularity of Battlenet for the explosion of internet popularity in the country and the reason for their business becoming what it did.

    Don't try to spin this, everyone that was around knows damn well it was World of Warcraft that did this. All the diehard Warcraft fans bought into it alongside many MMORPG players, and they told their friends, who told their friend who told theirs.

    Proof? What exactly did Warcraft innovate? Oh yeah........forgot about that. It was the IP and word of mouth, something no other game had before it.

     

    Command & Conquer's online capabilities were one of the largest factors in the game's success.  This was the mid to late 90s.

     

    Never mind Doom, Quake and Mechwarrior.  The games were popular, and could be played online.  I played them.

     

    Neverwinter Nights ran from 1991 to 1997, charging $6 an hour to a lot of people.  They had 115,000 players in the game towards the end of the service.  Given the state of the internet and the state of AOL, that's pretty popular. 

     

    Online gaming as an idea has been around for a very long time (since the 70s actually), and relative to the number of people who had the capability to play online games was popular.  No, actors and grandmothers weren't playing online games, but then they weren't playing video games.  WoW getting it "right" and reaching a very broad audience in the MMORPG genre isn't a comment on online gaming in general, but WoW's capabilities in particular.  Online gaming in general has shown popularity and growth for as long as it has existed.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TbauTbau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 401
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...is one of the most effective marketing tools. Seems it worked well on you. So, I guess your answer is "No, I have no data and I'm just citing personal belief as fact." Fair enough. 

     Yes, only the part of realty that you agree with exists and the rest is made up and should be ignored. Fair enough.

    Definitely willing to try to see it from your angle here, but you still haven't answered any of the questions or provided any data to support your rather odd assertions.

    Cheers, kiddo. image

    Funny how you ignore my points yet act like I gave none. What is your goal here anyway?

    It is irrefutable that when MMORPGs came out, the developers made games based on what they wanted to make and over time, as this entire thread speaks about, they now follow the numbers making games around what the NUMBERS SAY WORKS.

    There is no refuting it, that is why you are dancing the dance you are. 

  • TbauTbau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 401
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Neverwinter Nights ran from 1991 to 1997, charging $6 an hour to a lot of people.  They had 115,000 players in the game towards the end of the service.  Given the state of the internet and the state of AOL, that's pretty popular. 

    Online gaming as an idea has been around for a very long time (since the 70s actually), and relative to the number of people who had the capability to play online games was popular.  No, actors and grandmothers weren't playing online games, but then they weren't playing video games.  WoW getting it "right" and reaching a very broad audience in the MMORPG genre isn't a comment on online gaming in general, but WoW's capabilities in particular.  Online gaming in general has shown popularity and growth for as long as it has existed.

     

    Stormfronts NWNs game was one of the few games available, and pushed by AOL that owned it. No other online game of its kind was ever owned by an ISP. Especially one that was dominating the industry as AOL was.

    The idea of online gaming was never in question, the popularity of it was called into question as an excuse to dismiss the lack of popularity of early MMORPGs, something that I argued against. All that WoW did was bring non-RPG players into the MMORPG market, all based on the success of the IP it was built upon.

  • ConsequenceConsequence Member UncommonPosts: 358

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

     

    In the past Devs go to financiers and ask for money to build a great game and  financiers know next to nothing about games  except which ones succeed and which ones fail. The Devs say " I Have an Idea for a MMO" Financiers say " is it like WoW?" and if the devs say no then they don't get a dime. This is why we have seen SO many WoW clones in recent years. Devs haven't had true liberty to develop what they want. They are forced to sell their ideas early to someone who has financing or they are forced to alter the game to what the financiers want, which is another potential  WoW.

     

    However, with PC  sales on the decline in recent years, much of the financing has shriveled up and devs are being forced to crowd fund their ideas. We haven't seen how this will work out but it cant really be any worse for us than it was when devs didn't have the ability to make the games they wanted but rather the game the people who gave them money wanted.   

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,385
    Originally posted by Foobarx
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Devs today are still trying to make great games. Devs of old were trying to make great games. No change.

    Devs of old built the game because they believed it could be great and they could make money. Devs today built the game because they believe it could be great and they could make money. No change.

     

    Actually, there is a difference... devs today are copying what they've seen and done before.

     

    Just look at movies... more remakes than actually new ideas.  The creativity has left the building.  Redoing the work of others has become the norm.  Games... same thing.

     

    That is what has changed... 

    What was the last game to borrow nothing from previous games?  Pong?  Even the earliest video games borrowed much from programming methods that had been applied to other things but not yet to games.

    Copying games is nothing new.  By the early 1990s, EA was re-releasing basically the same games each year with only minor tweaks.  That's far more blatant copying than even a typical "WoW clone" commits.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Neverwinter Nights ran from 1991 to 1997, charging $6 an hour to a lot of people.  They had 115,000 players in the game towards the end of the service.  Given the state of the internet and the state of AOL, that's pretty popular. 

    Online gaming as an idea has been around for a very long time (since the 70s actually), and relative to the number of people who had the capability to play online games was popular.  No, actors and grandmothers weren't playing online games, but then they weren't playing video games.  WoW getting it "right" and reaching a very broad audience in the MMORPG genre isn't a comment on online gaming in general, but WoW's capabilities in particular.  Online gaming in general has shown popularity and growth for as long as it has existed.

     

    Stormfronts NWNs game was one of the few games available, and pushed by AOL that owned it. No other online game of its kind was ever owned by an ISP. Especially one that was dominating the industry as AOL was.

    The idea of online gaming was never in question, the popularity of it was called into question as an excuse to dismiss the lack of popularity of early MMORPGs, something that I argued against. All that WoW did was bring non-RPG players into the MMORPG market, all based on the success of the IP it was built upon.

     

    I cannot argue these points.  I would think it was obvious, given the size of the MMORPG market at the time, that the people WoW brought in were not MMORPG players prior to playing WoW.  Seems obvious anyway.

     

    Blizzard had some indication that what they were doing was the right way to go though.  They had a very successful RTS, but they weren't the behemoth MMORPG that they are today.  They dumped a lot of money into WoW because they believed in it.  Kind of like the money they are dumping into Destiny.  They believe in what the game is doing.

     

    What does this have to do with the topic at hand?  I think the idea that developers don't listen to players is a bit misleading.  They do listen to players.  They don't necessarily listen to what players say on forums, or on Facebook though.  They may pay a lot of attention to what players actually do in games, and what they actually pay for though.  That is a way for players to talk to developers, without actually typing up an email or a post.  Most players aren't going to bother communicating what they think about a particular game, they're just not going to bother getting any in game achievements.

     

    What, you thought in game achievements were a way to goad players into playing more?  Possibly, but if those achievements are available to the player account rather than just the game, it's a way for developers to track a player's progress through a game, and a way for them to track which content is completed and which content is skipped.  Listening to players is very important to most developers.  It's just that sometimes when they are listening, it's not to the vocal group of players on forums.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    Originally posted by Consequence

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

    Really? You practically corrected yourself, implying "the data leads to funding", which is exactly the point I was making.

     

    In the past Devs go to financiers and ask for money to build a great game and  financiers know next to nothing about games  except which ones succeed and which ones fail. The Devs say " I Have an Idea for a MMO" Financiers say " is it like WoW?" and if the devs say no then they don't get a dime. This is why we have seen SO many WoW clones in recent years. Devs haven't had true liberty to develop what they want. They are forced to sell their ideas early to someone who has financing or they are forced to alter the game to what the financiers want, which is another potential  WoW.

     

    However, with PC  sales on the decline in recent years, much of the financing has shriveled up and devs are being forced to crowd fund their ideas. We haven't seen how this will work out but it cant really be any worse for us than it was when devs didn't have the ability to make the games they wanted but rather the game the people who gave them money wanted.   

     

     

    @ the misleading use of "don't listen to players"

    Yeah, I know.

    I certainly didn't mean that developers don't listen to players AT ALL but more in the sense of what many of the player base is saying on the forums, other sites, etc. Devs or even mods can't possibly read everyone's thoughts and opinion on every aspect of their game. But I do believe they try to listen to the more major topics people are talking about.

  • ConsequenceConsequence Member UncommonPosts: 358
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Originally posted by Consequence

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

    Really? You practically corrected yourself, implying "the data leads to funding", which is exactly the point I was making.

     Data literally means "information" based on that you contradict yourself since every game changes based on "information" and  including information gathered from players.

    Vague thread is vague.

     

     

     

     

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Tbau

    And again I point out my original point. The first generations of MMORPGS were made to make a great game, until WoW came around. Then they started building their games on "numbers". Something that did NOT EXIST FOR THE FIRST GENERATION BECAUSE THERE WERE NO NUMBERS TO GET IN THE WAY.

    Oh, so data cannot be used to make a "great game"...? And your funny assumption is based on?

    Also, how do you know you are making a great game when you have no data, no other games to compare your game to?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    @ the misleading use of "don't listen to players"

    Yeah, I know.

    I certainly didn't mean that developers don't listen to players AT ALL but more in the sense of what many of the player base is saying on the forums, other sites, etc. Devs or even mods can't possibly read everyone's thoughts and opinion on every aspect of their game. But I do believe they try to listen to the more major topics people are talking about.

    The developers can't read everyone's thoughts, but there are still many ways they can "listen" to the players. Here are some examples:

    • - following the conversation in social media
    • - following forums, official and 3rd party
    • - analyzing the data of activity in game (what is used, how often, when, etc)
    • - analyzing exit data (not just comments at cancellation, but the player behaviour in game prior to leaving)
    • - player representation teams (ex: DAoC's Team Leads, EVE's Council of Stellar Management)

    This information doesn't exist in a vacuum, and what's learned from each game gets taken into account when they make their next game or move to their next company. Dev teams listening isn't a problem, but wading through it all is commonly one. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Consequence

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

     

    In the past Devs go to financiers and ask for money to build a great game and  financiers know next to nothing about games  except which ones succeed and which ones fail. The Devs say " I Have an Idea for a MMO" Financiers say " is it like WoW?" and if the devs say no then they don't get a dime. This is why we have seen SO many WoW clones in recent years. Devs haven't had true liberty to develop what they want. They are forced to sell their ideas early to someone who has financing or they are forced to alter the game to what the financiers want, which is another potential  WoW.

     

    However, with PC  sales on the decline in recent years, much of the financing has shriveled up and devs are being forced to crowd fund their ideas. We haven't seen how this will work out but it cant really be any worse for us than it was when devs didn't have the ability to make the games they wanted but rather the game the people who gave them money wanted.   

     

    PC sales in general are in decline.  PC Gaming sales are growing, along with all the upgrade parts for PC Gaming.  It would not be crazy to think that at some point in the future the majority of PC sales will revolve around gaming, not general purpose computing.

     

    Pick another reason for crowd funding games.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Consequence

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

     

    In the past Devs go to financiers and ask for money to build a great game and  financiers know next to nothing about games  except which ones succeed and which ones fail. The Devs say " I Have an Idea for a MMO" Financiers say " is it like WoW?" and if the devs say no then they don't get a dime. This is why we have seen SO many WoW clones in recent years. Devs haven't had true liberty to develop what they want. They are forced to sell their ideas early to someone who has financing or they are forced to alter the game to what the financiers want, which is another potential  WoW.

     

    However, with PC  sales on the decline in recent years, much of the financing has shriveled up and devs are being forced to crowd fund their ideas. We haven't seen how this will work out but it cant really be any worse for us than it was when devs didn't have the ability to make the games they wanted but rather the game the people who gave them money wanted.   

     

    PC sales in general are in decline.  PC Gaming sales are growing, along with all the upgrade parts for PC Gaming.  It would not be crazy to think that at some point in the future the majority of PC sales will revolve around gaming, not general purpose computing.

     

    Pick another reason for crowd funding games.

     

    I heard that PC sales are not declining but rather no longer increasing.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    TO OP:

    The challenge is that despite what many people think what they SAY they want or do and what they ACTUALLY do are not always the same. The hard part is figuring out what players actually do/want and even harder if its something that doesnt exist.

     

     

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Consequence

    This thread is misinformed. Devs do not follow "the data" they follow the funding.

     

    In the past Devs go to financiers and ask for money to build a great game and  financiers know next to nothing about games  except which ones succeed and which ones fail. The Devs say " I Have an Idea for a MMO" Financiers say " is it like WoW?" and if the devs say no then they don't get a dime. This is why we have seen SO many WoW clones in recent years. Devs haven't had true liberty to develop what they want. They are forced to sell their ideas early to someone who has financing or they are forced to alter the game to what the financiers want, which is another potential  WoW.

     

    However, with PC  sales on the decline in recent years, much of the financing has shriveled up and devs are being forced to crowd fund their ideas. We haven't seen how this will work out but it cant really be any worse for us than it was when devs didn't have the ability to make the games they wanted but rather the game the people who gave them money wanted.   

     

    PC sales in general are in decline.  PC Gaming sales are growing, along with all the upgrade parts for PC Gaming.  It would not be crazy to think that at some point in the future the majority of PC sales will revolve around gaming, not general purpose computing.

     

    Pick another reason for crowd funding games.

     

    I heard that PC sales are not declining but rather no longer increasing.

    Depends if you include tablets as PCs or not.  Many people are switching to them for general use over having the computer station in their house. Considering what most non-gamers do on computers they don't really need one. Gamers however will probably never switch or will only do so kicking and screaming.

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