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Things game companies need to understand

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  • FoobarxFoobarx Member Posts: 451
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Not in order

    -Gaming is an innovation industry, if you copy what has been done before you will suffer for it.

    -There is more to gaming the killing

    -There is more to RPG then fantasy

    -Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game

    -classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but its time to move on to skill based systems.

    -if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is about to die.

    -Gaming should be looked at as a service rather than a product

    -There is more money to be made (and at a smaller cost) in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though)

     

    added: ( I can tell I said the same thing more than once above and in so doing I forgot the other items)

    -to pvp you have to dehumanize your opponent which is the same social structures 'clans' take on. If you are in the clan you are good and exceptions are made, If you are out of the clan then you are different. Understanding the social system is important when creating a game. People really pvp for collaboration work

    Well Microsoft is proof that throwing a lot of money at advertising does indeed get people to buy crap.  And it's cheaper and easier to produce crap than it is to produce greatness.

     

    As far as business is concerned, it is all about the bottom line... if people will buy it, you are kosher... if they won't you're out of business.  Has ZERO to do with quality or innovation.  So long as you keep buying it, they will keep making it.  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.   That is the thing you, the consumer, needs to understand.  It's not the gaming company that is to blame here, it is the consumer.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Uhwop
     

    You're demonstrating the problem.  

    Consumers believe that because its not made, no one wants it.  

    They can't seem to fathom the idea that its not made because of the risk that people may not want it.  

     

    If blizzard never made WoW the mmo genre may have never become mainstream today.  Developers may have never been willing to risk investing in a genre that had yet to be proven.  

    And people today would be saying that no one wants to play an MMO, and they evidence for them would be that no one makes them.  

     

    exactly.

    people have bought into the idea that the consumer has 100% control of the economy and they don't.

    I'd flip this around and ask what games aren't being made? There are games covering just about everything today, you can play as a  goat, you can build trains, you can build farms and operate the machinery, you can drive a truck across a country, you can go fishing, you can go hunting, you can build cities, you can build in space, you can kill things, you can raise things etc. etc. etc...so on and so forth.

    the game industry has radically changed in just the past few years because indies have more exposure and what they are creating is what the AAA games are NOT creating.

    That said I am still waiting for a construction focused MMO. I don't know of one..well Wurm and its awesome

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    If blizzard never made WoW the mmo genre may have never become mainstream today.  Developers may have never been willing to risk investing in a genre that had yet to be proven.  

    And people today would be saying that no one wants to play an MMO, and they evidence for them would be that no one makes them.  

    mmo were still being popped out preWOW   (but not w WOW success)

     

    Boston Globe article from Feb 2004 -- before WOW

     

    Flood of games, too few players cause change in online realm

    http://otherworlds31279.yuku.com/topic/1167/Online-games-failuresuccess-Boston-Globe-article#.U4illChQZTY

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,283


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD1. they do not build the buildings. Because I oversea the spaceship design doesn't mean I actually fly it. Suggesting that the arhchitect builds the building is insulting to those who actually do.2. the argument wasn't made that I have never overseen a game project. the arugement was made that I have never MADE a game. very different.


    The building wouldn't be possible to built without an architect, they do build buildings.

    The spaceship wouldn't be possible to assembly without engineers, they do build spaceships.


    It is just different role than workers and mechanics they play in the production However, no less important.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    1. they do not build the buildings. Because I oversea the spaceship design doesn't mean I actually fly it. Suggesting that the arhchitect builds the building is insulting to those who actually do.

     

    2. the argument wasn't made that I have never overseen a game project. the arugement was made that I have never MADE a game. very different.


     


    The building wouldn't be possible to built without an architect, they do build buildings.

    That is extremely insulting to construction workers.

    Are you saying that without an architect a building cant be built but without construction workers it can?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    GTA, CoD, WoW always do better than then the games that come after and try to be like them.  

    Watch-dogs, BF, ToR.  

     

    The OP is more right than people here will ever give him credit for.  

     

    COD before BF? Wait what? 1942 (02) COD 1 (03), also you do realize Watchdogs is selling really well right? You might be correct about the article you read, but your examples are horrible.

    You missed the point.  

    EQ was before WoW, but WoW made the MMO mainstream.  

    Watchdogs doing well is not the same as doing GTA5 well.  

    The point the analyst was making is that developers can succeed emulating another game, but the data tends to show that they never reach the same level of success.  Developers are aware of that, and do it because its the SAFE bet.  

    They pointed out that game development, within larger studios, has a failure is not an option mentality that has lead to less innovation and large success than the games they attempt to emulate.  

    As I said the article may be correct, so I didn't miss your point, I just questioned your examples. I'm sure Ubisoft is perfectly content that they've released their fastest selling game ever.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,283


    Originally posted by SEANMCADThat is extremely insulting to construction workers.Are you saying that without an architect a building cant be built but without construction workers it can?


    An architect can build the building with his hands but construction worker cannot design the buidling.


    And you are precisely that type of person.

    A worker/gamer who thinks he can build a house/design a game because he has layed many bricks/played lots of games.

  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    If blizzard never made WoW the mmo genre may have never become mainstream today.  Developers may have never been willing to risk investing in a genre that had yet to be proven.  

    And people today would be saying that no one wants to play an MMO, and they evidence for them would be that no one makes them.  

    mmo were still being popped out preWOW   (but not w WOW success)

     

    Boston Globe article from Feb 2004 -- before WOW

     

    Flood of games, too few players cause change in online realm

    http://otherworlds31279.yuku.com/topic/1167/Online-games-failuresuccess-Boston-Globe-article#.U4illChQZTY

    And it starts out stating that MICROSOFTpulled the plug on an unreleased game.  

    And who, other than Sony, is making games at that time?  Not AAA studios.  

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Distopia
    O

    I'd flip this around and ask what games aren't being made? There are games covering just about everything today, you can play as a  goat, you can build trains, you can build farms and operate the machinery, you can drive a truck across a country, you can go fishing, you can go hunting, you can build cities, you can build in space, you can kill things, you can raise things etc. etc. etc...so on and so forth.

    the game industry has radically changed in just the past few years because indies have more exposure and what they are creating is what the AAA games are NOT creating.

    That said I am still waiting for a construction focused MMO. I don't know of one..well Wurm and its awesome

    Arguably you could call EQL that I guess, but you're right it's not a focus any game has really been built around outside of Wurm or ATITD.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    No she didn't say anything like that at all. She saidwithout the architect the bolded could n out be built. Abd yes architects do help in the actual building. Have you actually never seen an architect work or even spoken to one
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    And it starts out stating that MICROSOFTpulled the plug on an unreleased game.  

    And who, other than Sony, is making games at that time?  Not AAA studios.  

    Turbine is in same article

    "Too many products got created, to be used by too few customers," said Jeffrey Anderson, CEO of Westwood-based Turbine Entertainment Software, developer of another successful online game, Asheron's Call. "It's like we all decided we all wanted to create our own version of MTV."

     

    recap of mmos preWOW

    Pre2001
    Everquest, Ultima Online, Lineage

    2001
    Anarchy Online, Asherons Call, Dark Age of Camelot

    2002
    Asherons Call 2, Earth & Beyond, Final Fantasy XI

    2003
    Shadowbane, Eve Online, Lineage II ,Second Life, Star Wars Galaxies, Horizons (now called Istaria)

    early 2004
    City of Heroes

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    That is extremely insulting to construction workers.

     

    Are you saying that without an architect a building cant be built but without construction workers it can?


     


    An architect can build the building with his hands but construction worker cannot design the buidling.

    not true.

    Architect will have to learn the skill of consutruction just like the construction worker would have to learn the skills of architecture.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Maybe they should create Paperboy Online? Or Wallstreet Kid Online? 

    boardgame designers understand there's a variety of gamestyles

    introduction to the boardgame hobby

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeqJPPc09c

    videogames will hopefully get better

    I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. Board game designers know their target audience and make games for them. I would make a guess and say that a large cross section of the board game demographic wants a variety of game styles. Board games aren't video games, but there is obviously some overlap in the demographics and design attributes.

    Now there very well could be a call for greater diversity in video game design, but again that is a matter of perspective. The OP (or at least the people you're quoting) want triple A diversity. I would argue that there is plenty of design diversity and could cite the Steam catalog alone as a testament. The diversity for triple A games is smaller because those are targeted at mass appeal and mass appeal in any art form or product has less diversity by nature.

    I say the problem lies with the expectation of those that expect big budgets to cater to niche audiences and not a lack of understanding with those that design games for a living. Does that seem reasonable?

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    GTA, CoD, WoW always do better than then the games that come after and try to be like them.  

    Watch-dogs, BF, ToR.  

     

    The OP is more right than people here will ever give him credit for.  

     

    COD before BF? Wait what? 1942 (02) COD 1 (03), also you do realize Watchdogs is selling really well right? You might be correct about the article you read, but your examples are horrible.

    You missed the point.  

    EQ was before WoW, but WoW made the MMO mainstream.  

    Watchdogs doing well is not the same as doing GTA5 well.  

    The point the analyst was making is that developers can succeed emulating another game, but the data tends to show that they never reach the same level of success.  Developers are aware of that, and do it because its the SAFE bet.  

    They pointed out that game development, within larger studios, has a failure is not an option mentality that has lead to less innovation and large success than the games they attempt to emulate.  

    As I said the article may be correct, so I didn't miss your point, I just questioned your examples. I'm sure Ubisoft is perfectly content that they've released their fastest selling game ever.

     

    I'm sure they are, but in the end it's a game that emulates GTA.  

    I played the hell out of 1942 and the original COD.  The original CoD didn't put as much emphasis on the online part (it was praised for its single player gameplay), once they did CoD exploded.  Today BF takes cues from CoD, not the other way around.  

    I agree it's not the perfect example, it was to illustrate a point more than anything.  

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,626

    I feel like this is a forest through the trees problem. Take a look around, every type of game imaginable is being made and readily available in some form or another. If you can't find a game you like, you're not looking hard enough. Or perhaps you might not like video games anymore.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    And it starts out stating that MICROSOFTpulled the plug on an unreleased game.  

    And who, other than Sony, is making games at that time?  Not AAA studios.  

    Turbine is in same article

    "Too many products got created, to be used by too few customers," said Jeffrey Anderson, CEO of Westwood-based Turbine Entertainment Software, developer of another successful online game, Asheron's Call. "It's like we all decided we all wanted to create our own version of MTV."

    speaking of Microsoft. I knew in my heart and soul that people wanted something different then what was being served when one of the Xbox One major reveals was that it supported Minecraft.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I feel like this is a forest through the trees problem. Take a look around, every type of game imaginable is being made and readily available in some form or another. If you can't find a game you like, you're not looking hard enough. Or perhaps you might not like video games anymore.

    if you include indie games, true

    but Op was referring to games by AAA publishers

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,283


    Originally posted by SEANMCADnot true.Architect will have to learn the skill of consutruction just like the construction worker would have to learn the skills of architecture.

    Now you are unsulting anyone with uni degree...or any education in fact.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     

    not true.

    Architect will have to learn the skill of consutruction just like the construction worker would have to learn the skills of architecture.


     

    Now you are unsulting anyone with uni degree...or any education in fact.

    hardly!

    so basically you are saying if someone has a degree it means that they personally did the work of thousands of people who will not get credit for the work they did?

    yeah I don't think so...sorry bro not going to fly.

     

    we can debate this matter forever but it diverts from the topic

    I am to understand from you that as long as I am a lead designer on a game then that qualifies for having an opinon. I don't have to actually make the game or come up with the money.

    odd rule but whatever

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,626


    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Foomerang I feel like this is a forest through the trees problem. Take a look around, every type of game imaginable is being made and readily available in some form or another. If you can't find a game you like, you're not looking hard enough. Or perhaps you might not like video games anymore.
    if you include indie games, true

    but Op was referring to games by AAA publishers


    AAA publisher is an archaic term imho. Its some category we use to try and define quality or a huge budget. Neither of which reflects the current state of the industry anymore (again imho)

  • Moxom914Moxom914 Member RarePosts: 731


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by SEANMCAD  
    incorrect. I am sorry but 'paper boy throwing' is NOT a AAA game. ironically since Steam early access has come out there has been a LOT more diversity of games and they have been becoming successful which of course validates my point that people are not being served in the past and that it might be changing   REMINDER: sims was the BEST SELLING PC GAME EVER....hmmm and its the only AAA game that doesn't involve killing....hmmmmm...
    Sims was so successful because it was a truly casual gaming experience. It was the farmville of it's day.
    of its day it was also the only high budget game that didn't involve killing.

    Ironically the only attempt at a high dollar non-murder game ended up as a best seller?

    no demand for non-killing games?

    really?

    seriously?


    no. no demand. not anymore. the sims, if it were to release for the first time in the day and age, would not b as successful.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

     

    Sims Online, Sim City Online, Spore (arguably), Second Life

     

    As far as the flavor of kool aid goes, just because there isn't a diarrhea flavor of cool aid doesn't mean someone should make one. On top of that, if kool aid told you that to make this flavor it would cost you $30 million dollars, do you think you could sell enough to get your money back? You don't need to be a CEO to figure out those numbers. 

     

    You obviously think game developers are stupid. I've worked with a number of business development managers in the gaming industry in the past, but my introduction to them was that they really didn't care about my "ideas". They'd heard them all before. "A dime a dozen" is the term one used, actually. All your talk about the theoretical mountains of money that there is to be made with these games will fall on deaf ears, because they're stuffed full of REAL money they are making from REAL games that have proven track records. 

     

    Time is finite. It's the reason that we all don't simply work at McDonalds. I mean if you could make 6-figures making fries at McDonalds, who wouldn't? I mean all the fries you can eat?!?!? No, you need to maximize the return on investment of your own time. A game company is no different. They have finite resources and want to focus on maximizing their return on investment in those resources. Once and a whlie, you might get skunkworks projects (like H1Z1?), but in the gaming industry these are rare, rare, rare activities. How H1Z1 was done boggles my mind. Hopefully means Sony is going to be doing more innovative work in the future. 

     

    In summary, everything you think you know has been thrown around a boardroom a thousand times and shot down more than Bubba at the local strip joint on a Friday night. 

    Let me help you try and contextualize this.

    Have I played the BEST SELLING PC GAME IN WORLD HISTORY...The Sims? YES and I like it.

    Do I play a plenty of other games that have shoot em ups? YES HOWEVER...I wish I had an option to play a game of that high quality GRAPHICS and not have to go around blowing everything up.

     

    I am unclear why this is hard to understand. I as a gamer play games where a lot of killing is involved and its boring me, but why do I play? BECUASE I DONT HAVE ENOUGH OTHER OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Try The Repopulation. Based on my understanding, it'll offer that option. 

     

    Other than that, you're right, there is a distinct lack of games that offer high quality graphics, but without killing. Well, I suppose Sim City Online is pretty close, but it's not really what you're looking for I don't think. The Sims might do something with updated graphics at some point? Maybe? However, I don't see games like "Shop Owner Online", "Fast Food Worker Online" or "A Day In The Life Of An Accountant: Online" coming any time soon with updated engines. 

     

    That's just reality. Instead of arguing about it, though, why don't you pitch a game and actually show measurable return on investment using factual data. That's what really creates change. 

    repopulation isn't even out.

    I am going to say this just one more them then not say it again.

    Because its not in the AAA space DOES NOT MEAN PEOPLE DONT WANT IT. I means the meal is not being served.

    Do you honestly think that most of gamers want to only go around killing monsters all day and watch reality tv? seriously?

     

    economics is NOT just demand side...its also supply side

     

    This might sum it up

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990ON0M-n4g

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,283


    Originally posted by SEANMCADhardly!so basically you are saying if someone has a degree it means that they personally did the work of thousands of people who will not get credit for the work they did?yeah I don't think so...sorry bro not going to fly

    That is what you keep saying...despite being corrected, twice.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Distopia
     

    Sims was so successful because it was a truly casual gaming experience. It was the farmville of it's day.

    of its day it was also the only high budget game that didn't involve killing.

    Ironically the only attempt at a high dollar non-murder game ended up as a best seller?

    no demand for non-killing games?

    really?

    seriously?

    I really don't know how true that is, I mean we had tetris and stuff like that back then. Lots of adventures games at the time as well that didn't involve killing. I'd also bring up Shenmue which really wasn't a game about killing, which was my favorite game of that age.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by silverreign

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     
    incorrect. I am sorry but 'paper boy throwing' is NOT a AAA game. ironically since Steam early access has come out there has been a LOT more diversity of games and they have been becoming successful which of course validates my point that people are not being served in the past and that it might be changing   REMINDER: sims was the BEST SELLING PC GAME EVER....hmmm and its the only AAA game that doesn't involve killing....hmmmmm...
    Sims was so successful because it was a truly casual gaming experience. It was the farmville of it's day.
    of its day it was also the only high budget game that didn't involve killing.

     

    Ironically the only attempt at a high dollar non-murder game ended up as a best seller?

    no demand for non-killing games?

    really?

    seriously?


     

     

    no. no demand. not anymore. the sims, if it were to release for the first time in the day and age, would not b as successful.

    sims was released during a time where there were nearly zero non-combat focused games.

    sims quickly became the best selling PC game of all time and held that record for a long time.

    I fail to see the lack of understanding here..

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

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