As long as raiders are better then non-raiders in non-raiding activities, they are raiding games.
So yes, EQ2 and WoW are raiding games. However, they are nothing compare to EQ or Vanguard, granted. Chess, Risk and Axis & Allies are all boardgames. EQ, EQ2, WoW and Vanguard are all raiding games. A soloer or a grouper have no reason to even consider any of those 4 titles if the END game matter to them as much as the progression to it itself. Unless they are also raiders, in which case they may consider those titles and see differences depending on how much of a raider they are.
But for a soloer or a grouper who happen to NOT be a raider, it is all the same nightmare over again and again.
So EQ2 and WoW dont please real raiders, and they dont please soloers or groupers eithers. They are for casual raiders. Anyone that say otherwise have an agenda they try to fullfill or are plainly ignorants. EQ is more a raiding game then ever, and Vanguard will have hard issues to even meet half the raiding content of old EQ!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye So EQ2 and WoW dont please real raiders, and they dont please soloers or groupers eithers. They are for casual raiders. Anyone that say otherwise have an agenda they try to fullfill or are plainly ignorants. EQ is more a raiding game then ever, and Vanguard will have hard issues to even meet half the raiding content of old EQ!
See, I agree with you. Of course WoW and EQ2 have raids, and in particular EQ2 is very raid oriented.
But the fact that you are forced to raid, doesn't make it a good raiding game.
Everyone can lead a raid in EQ2, there is no challenge whatsoever. Raiding in EQ2 is about quantity, not quality. The more players in the raid the best chances you got to succeed. Yes EQ2 doesn't please either hardcore raiders nor the soloers, and that s why it is crap, because is a hybryd product to appeal everyone, and because it compromises in everything, it doesn't make anyone happy.
Games like Vanguard are definetly for raiders, in the extent that the if you want the best loot, you are forced to raid, but at the same time it will be soloable. I believe that, like in the old EQ, there will be 3 or 4 classes that will be able to solo easily, but only level wise. Although they will be able to level at the same pace as people that group often, they won't be able to get the same high level items, that will get if they will decide to raid.
I think this is a fair compromise. If you don't like to group all the time, and prefer to level by soloing, you will be able to do so. But obviously when we talk about best equipment, it is only fair that you get the best one by raiding. In the end, taking part in 1 raid a week doesn't seems to me such a bad compromise for a solo player, because you will be soloing 80% of the time, and grouping for the remaining 20%.
In the end this is a Massively Multiplayer game, and if you want to solo 100% of the time and get the same equipment of people that group, then maybe, MMORPGs are not for you after all.
Originally posted by Anofalye As long as raiders are better then non-raiders in non-raiding activities, they are raiding games.
And as long as you can get the same rewards for soloing as you can for grouping or raiding, then it is a solo game. Even if you wanted to group, you would be hard pressed to find anyone to group with if the game doesn't give higher rewards for grouping (see pre-CU SWG). You WILL be able to solo in Vanguard (most likely better with some classes than others), but you will NOT get the same rewards for soloing.
I don't really consider WoW to be a "Raiding" game. Yes there is plenty of raid content when you're level 60 but you can get a pick me up group for just about every instance there is within a few minutes. EQ 1 had alot more excitment when you actually found a good raid invite from another guild or your own to do a good long raid that you knew would be exciting and possibly very rewarding. In WoW it's more like "Woop-dee-doo I'm doing a Stratholme run!". Sure theres a few such as Molten Core where you're probably going to need some qualitiy players to make it anywhere in there but i've still seen pick me up groups for there as well. I've always loved solo content and refuse to waste my few hours a day looking for a group to get anything in the game done at all but I seriously doubt that will be the case with Vanguard.
As much as I love to solo I still think it needs to be reasonably tough and if it will make it possible and/or easier to solo at higher levels by achieving uber gear from raiding then its deffinately worth the time and effort. In WoW I soloed all the way to level 60 in no more than few months and I'm probably more of a casual gamer who plays 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and anywhere from 2-8 hours on weekends.
So if you like plenty of solo content, WoW is the game for you. You'll be able to solo with any class all the way up to level 60 with ease. When you want some good gear you can find a pick me up group for any instance you want to do, no problem. I have no major problems with the game, its fun for the meantime but you'll never really feel useful in this game no matter what class you are. In EQ 1 it would be unheard of to not have a single cleric on a raid. In WoW you can substitute a priest with a paladin or druid in most cases, its pretty ridiculous. I;m a warrior and theres no real super effective way to keep aggro on the mass loads of mobs in the instances, everything is just very very sloppy and mobs bounce back and forth on every group member. The game is plain out a sloppy kind of fun if you like that sort of thing.
Originally posted by Fadeus The day MMORPG's are driven towards solo play as the primary focus is the day I stop paying a monthly to play with thousands of other people and go back to games like Morrowind. I applaud Sigil on sticking too what they promised, which was a game that re-captured the greater aspects of old EQ 1. I am not gonna keep paying companies a monthly fee so I can be unsocial and a recluse.
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
Originally posted by Fadeus The day MMORPG's are driven towards solo play as the primary focus is the day I stop paying a monthly to play with thousands of other people and go back to games like Morrowind. I applaud Sigil on sticking too what they promised, which was a game that re-captured the greater aspects of old EQ 1. I am not gonna keep paying companies a monthly fee so I can be unsocial and a recluse.
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
you want a positive post...I hope Vanguard is a huuuuuge hit. Course my reasons are evil...big success means more peeps leave the SWG game and its evil master SOE behind.
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
Today for example in WoW....
Spent an hr going through an instance. We get to a spot where everyone knows or should know to hug the wall to avoid aggros. Sure enough someone wonders too far over and gets us all killed. Then while we all wait, that idiot decides to take the penalty and revive to fix his gear. Then we gotta fight our way back to entrance to get him back inside. This takes 45 minutes. About halfway down, we get to a spot and meet one of the bosses. We were doing fine, then one player falls off the ledge (our healer) like an idiot. And sure enough another suddenly loses connection.
I was only there to get the chance to roll on a boss' item and never did. I got very little xp, total aggravation, damaged gear that my loot from instance didnt even cover expenses for...real nice group experience. And this is typical of groups...bleh. No thanks
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
And there will be some solo play in Vanguard.
And so what if the target audience is a minority? Oh well, they're targeting a different playerbase, so what? Is it some kind of rule that designers have to focus on the majority? Nope!
I like to group, and I like to solo too... But I don't want a game that is pretty much completely solo. The only time I'm gonna solo is if I want to be alone, or I'm looking for a group and want some exp.
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
Today for example in WoW....
Are you jocking????????????? WOW is 70%-80% solo content, how can you complain of WoW being a group centered game?
The next step after WoW is playing an offline game while chatting at the same time in a chatroom. I think that s what you are looking for mate.
The solo games that you want don't exists and never will (In the MMORPG world). The closer you can get is WoW and Guild Wars. Vanguard will be 100 times more group oriented than WoW, so this game is definetly not for you.
Also I just want to inform you that this game has been designed for the "minority" of players that you talk about. Another reason to leave Vanguard alone and try another game.
Yes WoW is highly solo possible game at the beginning. However, at later stages one must group for the best gear and instances. And for that, I have no problem at all. The only issues I have with WoW are..
1. immature player base with no clue on how to play a mmorpg. They're lack of experience and ability to pay attention are a real annoyance in group settings. And not just things like not filling their roles correctly (dont dare and try to tell a warrior he should be wearing a shield in a group). Little things like not bothering to respond to questions or tells is a frequent occurrence for some odd reason.
2. No end-game for solo players. At level 60, there is zero quests or content for a solo player. The only thing to do is go on raids or group for the elite instances.
3. Level based, never liked it and never will. Its a cheap way for developers to make a game. Case in point, SWG pre-CU where mobs had distinct resists to certain attacks, etc. To redo the combat, SOE went the cheap, easy, and fast route and redid game to level based bleh. Also level based games with a damage multiplier predetermine pve outcomes for the most part. Therefore gear really matters very little. It kinda kills the solo players point to play, knowing that it wont matter to spend time and effort to get the best gear and loot cause in the end its pointless (in lvl based game). In a skill based game, my effort matters. I can actually make myself better with time and effort. Everyone's the same in a level based game.
Anyway, I dont fault Vanguard for going their route at all. My original post was merely expressing my disappointment in yet another mmorpg on my list I can assume wont appeal to me. And I do think I read somewhere that solo play will be possible. If its anything close to WoW then Ill most likely try it.
Originally posted by Fadeus The day MMORPG's are driven towards solo play as the primary focus is the day I stop paying a monthly to play with thousands of other people and go back to games like Morrowind. I applaud Sigil on sticking too what they promised, which was a game that re-captured the greater aspects of old EQ 1. I am not gonna keep paying companies a monthly fee so I can be unsocial and a recluse.
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
you want a positive post...I hope Vanguard is a huuuuuge hit. Course my reasons are evil...big success means more peeps leave the SWG game and its evil master SOE behind.
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
Today for example in WoW....
Spent an hr going through an instance. We get to a spot where everyone knows or should know to hug the wall to avoid aggros. Sure enough someone wonders too far over and gets us all killed. Then while we all wait, that idiot decides to take the penalty and revive to fix his gear. Then we gotta fight our way back to entrance to get him back inside. This takes 45 minutes. About halfway down, we get to a spot and meet one of the bosses. We were doing fine, then one player falls off the ledge (our healer) like an idiot. And sure enough another suddenly loses connection.
I was only there to get the chance to roll on a boss' item and never did. I got very little xp, total aggravation, damaged gear that my loot from instance didnt even cover expenses for...real nice group experience. And this is typical of groups...bleh. No thanks
so your saying that most people would rather just solo all the time and be able to kill things at high levels to get the best loot in the game???? im sorry to say not only are you dead wrong but no game will ever be made like that hehe (no mmorpg that is) and the minority is actually YOU! most people play these games to interact with other people, thats why i play... i do agree however there should always be a option to solo but you SHOULD NOT!! be able to get the best loot in a game by soloing because what would the point of a group be then???? think about what your saying its MADNESS!!!!!
I am sorry to tell you guys, but Admi is making more sense then most of you as far as understanding soloing.
See, as a grouper I want a reason to GROUP.
Why would a soloer not want a REASON TO SOLO? Anyone that assume a soloer should be happy in WoW should also assume that different but equal was enought for the black folks in the USA.
Solo uberness need to belong to soloers, not to groupers, raiders, tradeskillers, PvPers or anyone else that is not a soloer.
If instead of focusing on insulting others, you would listen to their messages, you might eventually understand. Making solo lame and unrewarding is not enought. Solo uberness need to be earned soloing, not while doing anything else but soloing.
But again, many peoples want to insult a soloer and discredit him right away. Soloers dont want to be the best overall, they want to be the best at soloing! Quite simple, quite logical, and quite motivating!
I would group as long as group uberness is earned while grouping, and I would solo as long as solo uberness is earned soloing when I cant group for any reason(encountering solo haters is a good reason to not want to group for a few days).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You're beginning to sound like a broken record Ano. Except for the few permanent nay-sayers, those of us who frequent the forums of grouping games do so because we like to group ... simple. Frankly, I am not interested in being enlightened about the philosophy of soloing, and I am willing to bet most of the other guys here aren't either. I feel quite confident I can solo as good as anyone, including you, and, again, I'm willing to bet these other guys can too. The thing with soloing is, well, it's soloing ... there ain't a lot to talk about
It continues to baffle me why some of you even play social games. You can get all the "solo uberness" you want playing offline games by yourself. Instead, you stick yourself in a social environment and then complain that it's a social environment
The game will have soloing. Your soloing uberness will be pushing yourself to the limit of what you can do with your class all alone. Soloers aren't being punished for soloing, groupers are being rewarded for grouping.
If you want to solo, and be the big hero of the game (PvE), you really need to play a single player game. Because in an MMORPG that lets soloers kill anything, you end up with everyone being able to kill everything (see SWG pre-revamp).
I prefer to group over soloing myself, so the Wickles is beside the point and just trying to insult me rather then understand me, and I will repeat myself until you understand, even if I need to do it 10k more times.
And yes, soloers are been punished by been lames and unable to achieve the top of soloing.
A game with 1 overall system should clearly say it so, and Vanguard is not telling it is penalising groupers(non-raiders), and you wonder why I keep posting here?
In Vanguard, groupers are been punished for not been raiders, and they are doomed to be lames and second class heros, yet, Vanguard is strongly and falsely advertising pro-grouping, which is all lie, it is a RAID OR BE LAME setting. As long as they will keep a false form saying casuals, grouping and raiding, I will complains. Casuals cant be happy in Vanguard, they are not ruling the casuals area! A casual to be happy need to rule the casual aspect of the game, otherwise you bluntly lie.
And guess what, I am not afraid to face the ire of the vocal minority.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
In Vanguard, groupers are been punished for not been raiders, and they are doomed to be lames and second class heros, yet, Vanguard is strongly and falsely advertising pro-grouping, which is all lie, it is a RAID OR BE LAME setting. As long as they will keep a false form saying casuals, grouping and raiding, I will complains. Casuals cant be happy in Vanguard, they are not ruling the casuals area! A casual to be happy need to rule the casual aspect of the game, otherwise you bluntly lie.
Not to be an ass... But how do you know? Have you played it? Most dungeons are for grouping, and there are going to be quite a few dungeons and very few locked zones, so basically everything can be grouped or raided in.
Not to be an ass... But how do you know? Have you played it? Most dungeons are for grouping, and there are going to be quite a few dungeons and very few locked zones, so basically everything can be grouped or raided in.
Do you think, 1 moment, that the father of raiding, Brad, will allow raiding to not give the best rewards and completely outmatch grouping and make groupers lames in the same process? I dont care if 95% of the game to a point is something if the end is not also that something, for an achiever, the end, the goal, is all that matter. It is pointless if you consider anything but the END. And in the END, all non-raiders lack in their system.
Also, didnt you notice, they say:
Casual, grouping and raiding.
In that precise order...like 1,2,3. But what they say is they focus on casuals, grouping and raiding. This is a LIE! A casual will never be the best in a casual zone, he will always be a secondary toon. A grouper will never be the best in a grouping zone, it will all belong to raiders, those who are ''more worthy''. And they still say they have 3 focus on the game...LIE!
The game is about raiding, raiding and raiding! Everyone else is lame and pointless and should start raiding. (like pre-SoL EQ, which is what they use to compare, all the time, their words, yet they dare say they have 3 focus, LIES).
I hate peoples that lie in order to get me to waste my money on unworthy products. And this is exactly what they do, they make an unworthy grouping system because groupers will always be second class heros, and they dare say grouping will be nice...grrrr! I will bite them soon! I swear!
PS: Non-achievers should not even bother to try to understand me, they cant.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye, I thought I was clear about soloing in Vanguard.
Ok lets split the game in 2 sections: 1)Leveling and 2)Equipment
1)Leveling: In Vanguad you will be able to level at the same pace whether you play solo or in Group. There will be some classes that will be more solo friendly, so if you want to level by not grouping you can do that, you just need to choose the right class.
2)Equipment: You won't be able to get the best items if you don't group or Raid, so solo to get good equipment is not advisable.
This system will allow people to solo 70-80% of the time (for leveling purposes), and 30-20% of the time to group/raid to get a good equipment. I think this is a good balance that makes everyone happy. I refuse to believe that any Solo player want to Solo 100% of the time whether is for leveling purposes or to get good equipment. It is not in the nature of MMORPGs. The situation I described above is the best solution for everyone, I believe.
Vanguard is an Item Centered game, meaning that in order to be succesful in the game you need good equipment, that s why Sigil says that the game is group oriented, because for the nature of the game (get good equipment) you need to group, Sigil didn't said that you won't be able to level by soloing, the opposite is true. To get good equipment you don't need to group 100% of the time, 30% will be enough.
Now I want to understand what is your definition of solo, because if you think that a player should be able to play 100% of the time by himself and achieving the same goals of people that group more often, then what you need is an offline game, not a MMORPG.
Admriker444, the episode you describe about WoW it is something of a recurring thing in Blizzard game. You say that you are fed up because you are forced to group with inexperienced players or plain idiots, in order to be succesful in a dungeon. I agree with you, that s what WoW is all about.
But did you ask yourself why WoW is in this situation? The reason is because the game is too easy for everyone and too solo friendly. That gives the chance for everyone to solo til lvl 59, skilled or clumsy, smart or idiot, it doesn't matter everyone can solo and everyone can create an Uber character.
So what happens is, that when people reach high levels and they are forced to group in order to get good equipment you are most likely to find 3-4 idiots in your group, that will fuckd up everything. The reasons are: 1) People is not used to group, cause they usually solo for the first 50 lvl. 2)The fact that you are not forced to group, makes everyone solo, and because the solo content is fairly easy, any idiot can max a characters.
Unfortunately the fact that the WOW gameplay doesn't allow a strict selection of players at the beginning of the game, that will result in bad experiences with groups at a later stage, hence your adversity to group.
In Vanguard you won't have this problem cause the worst people will give up on the game at early stages, and only mature and skilled people will last, making grouping and raiding extremely fun and rewarding.
Originally posted by ste2000 Anofalye, I thought I was clear about soloing in Vanguard.
Ok lets split the game in 2 sections: 1)Leveling and 2)Equipment
1)Leveling: In Vanguad you will be able to level at the same pace whether you play solo or in Group. There will be some classes that will be more solo friendly, so if you want to level by not grouping you can do that, you just need to choose the right class.
2)Equipment: You won't be able to get the best items if you don't group or Raid, so solo to get good equipment is not advisable.
This system will allow people to solo 70-80% of the time (for leveling purposes), and 30-20% of the time to group/raid to get a good equipment. I think this is a good balance that makes everyone happy. I refuse to believe that any Solo player want to Solo 100% of the time whether is for leveling purposes or to get good equipment. It is not in the nature of MMORPGs. The situation I described above is the best solution for everyone, I believe.
Vanguard is an Item Centered game, meaning that in order to be succesful in the game you need good equipment, that s why Sigil says that the game is group oriented, because for the nature of the game (get good equipment) you need to group, Sigil didn't said that you won't be able to level by soloing, the opposite is true. To get good equipment you don't need to group 100% of the time, 30% will be enough.
Now I want to understand what is your definition of solo, because if you think that a player should be able to play 100% of the time by himself and achieving the same goals of people that group more often, then what you need is an offline game, not a MMORPG.
1- Grouping will not give the best reward, you will need to raid.
2- Solo uberness to soloers.
3- Group uberness to groupers.
4- Raid uberness to raiders.
Overall uberness is a dating concept and will lead to 1 gameplay crushing all others(raiding crushing non-raiding in Vanguard for exemple).
(from an achiever point of view who dont like raiding) It would be pointless to have a game where you can solo & group 95% of your playing time, if in the end, you need to raid to ''reach your goal''. Pointless waste of time. Dont even bother and jump to the next game, it have 0 solo & grouping appeal. Since the ENDING matter a LOT to an achiever.
The problem I have with Vanguard is not that it is focusing about raiding, I would not mind(do you see me troll endlessly DnL or EVE? I am sure I would like those games even less...yet I dont complain, because they never LIE to me)...if they would not be LYING! They keep saying they care about casuals & Groups! LIES! Groupers are sub-par heros inside of the grouping system, and casuals cant even aspire to be sub-par, they are in the lamest spot, completely behind.
The best toon in Crushbone should be a level 15 wearing Emperor Crush gear, not some lameass level 60+ wearing whatever nonsense from uberland. The best person in Sebilis should be wearing a RBSS and that type of gear, not a CoF! And as long as they will LIE and say they care about grouping, while in fact they dont care 1 single moment, I will be angrily trolling around!
Leveling & equipment cant be splitted for an achiever. It just dont work. A game is solo friendly or not. A game is grouping friendly or not. Vanguard is NOT on both and they keep saying they are. It would be like saying that in current China you reward hardwork, the fact they hardwork 99% of the time dont bring the reward and thereby it is a LIE! And dont fool yourself, grouping in Vanguard is sub-par to raiding, remove that grouping or raid and just put raid, we both know it.
Soloers need to reach the TOP of the soloing and be the best soloers. Nothing more, nothing less. They dont care if they cant do nada in raids or groups, they dont solo for any other reason then soloing.
(replace soloers with any others terms like groupers, PvPers, Casual or whatever, and change the adjective adequately)
And still...Vanguard is still claiming they are about CASUAL, GROUPING and RAIDING!
LIE, LIE and the only focus. 67% lie = quite bad in my dictionnary.
Vanguard is all about raiding, everything else is merely a distraction to get to the point of raiding and thereby trivial and pointless. Yet, Vanguard staff is LYING and keep doing it on a daily basic.
Vanguard is a shitty grouping game, even shittier for solo. It offer raiding and it have a few others gameplays inserted artificially in order to allow you the first levels or raiding...it remain a shitty grouping game, and even shittier soloing game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye I prefer to group over soloing myself, so the Wickles is beside the point and just trying to insult me rather then understand me, and I will repeat myself until you understand, even if I need to do it 10k more times.
Baloney I think I understand what you're saying pretty well by now .... you've been saying it continuously for as long as I've been reading this site. And my point is not to insult, merely to suggest you quit jousting windmills and go play the games designed for your preferences. From what I've seen you just complain about every mmorpg, which I would think might give you a message.
Heck, I don't even believe you prefer to group, since you've been railing about soloing endlessly. Just look at your signature.
You're not going to find a game that's equally balanced between soloing, grouping, and raiding. Number one it isn't possible, and number two the market has developed totally into a niche market. Nevertheless, there are innumerable soloing opportunities out there right now. WOW is primarily solo until the raid level. You can sure solo an enormous amount of SWG. I can solo EQ2 all day long if I want - quite productively ... NOT everything in the game, but plenty - too much, really. Etc. Etc.
So companies MARKET their games, something you prefer to call lying. It's marketing, get over it. LIke it or not, it's the way of the world. You really can't blame people who are selling a product from trying to get people to try the product. They work hard, they put a lot of money in, and they would like people to try it. It could easily be that somebody tries it for one reason and then finds out they like it for another reason. It's not like you're signing up for life anyway. You try it and stay if you like it or leave if you don't. But Vanguard clearly isn't being designed to focus on the soloer ... end of story. Sure there will be soloing. There was always soloing available in EQ1, except maybe during the initial PoP period it simply became too unproductive for a while, but people constantly complained they couldn't solo when the truth was they could. Overall, though, the game was a grouping and raiding game, and everyone knew it. End of story. By now I would think it would be clear to you that Vanguard is not going to focus on your soloing uberness (thank god) ... I just can't see why you don't accept that already. It's simply not going for that niche. Vanguard is going for another niche - one which a lot of us feel isn't being addressed at the moment.
And yeah, people who kill mobs that take 6 people will get items better then those dropped by mobs that take one person. And people who kill mobs that take 30 people will get better items yet. Makes perfect sense. It's not a soloing game, and more powerful mobs would naturally drop better items.
Anofalye where are the lies? What are you talking about?
Sigil always stated that this game will be Group oriented and Raids will be the biggest part of this game. They only mentioned, that leveling by playing solo, will be possible and this is true. They also said that if you solo you won't be able to get the best equipment available. Only group/raids will have the best equipment. These are devs official statements, taken from interviews and forum posts.
Where are the lies? You cannot be more honest than that. By saying that this game will be group/raid oriented they are alienating 60-70% of potential customers (big gamble), still, they prefer to be honest so people won't be disappointed later. Other companies would have said that the game is accessible by everyone, in order to have a bigger player base, for then disappoint them big time (see EQ2).
This game is going to be for people who enjoyed EQ (DAoC and AC), it is a group/raid oriented game, It is made to satisfy this category of players that needs a modern product, so they can stop playing those ancient games.
As I said before, DnL will be solo friendly, so they claim. It has to be seen if they have been honest or not, it might turn out to be another Raiding game. At least Sigil has been honest from the beginning.
I only know a few things about Vanguard soh but as for the solo style i think its very vital... There were times i couldn't play final fantasyXI from morning time till 8 oclock in the afternoon because i was in need of a party in order to continue my progress. Sure that was one of the reasons i quit playing it....
1- Grouping will not give the best reward, you will need to raid.
2- Solo uberness to soloers.
3- Group uberness to groupers.
4- Raid uberness to raiders.
1. Right. As it should be. Those who spend great time, using greater cooperation with thier fellow players, and who take greater risks, should gain the greatest rewards. Its quite simple really.
2 - 4. You keep promoting this, and as I've tried to demonstrate to you before, it's an unrealistic system. Aside from it being obviously contrived, it resolves absolutely nothing.
Your problem seems to be that if a person raids, and gears up with raid level loot, they'll be a better solo'er. You have stated in the past that a person should always be able to solo, because you can't always get a group. Yet you fail to see that you telling a player who raids or groups, that they damn well always better get a raid or a group or they'll be gimped to solo.
You feel as though you are being treated unfairly. I disagree, because I think that those people who commit to the most to cooperation with fellow players should get the greatest rewards (since it is a game about cooperation above all else). And yet you seem to feel that it's perfectly fair to have anyone that's not you be gimped because of their playstyle. Let me restate this in different terms; You are fine with someone being treated unfairly as long as its not you.
Overall uberness is a dating concept and will lead to 1 gameplay crushing all others(raiding crushing non-raiding in Vanguard for exemple).
(from an achiever point of view who dont like raiding) It would be pointless to have a game where you can solo & group 95% of your playing time, if in the end, you need to raid to ''reach your goal''. Pointless waste of time. Dont even bother and jump to the next game, it have 0 solo & grouping appeal. Since the ENDING matter a LOT to an achiever.
1 style of gameplay will only ever be crushed if the choice to do so is removed from the players. I find it endlessly ironic that you would state such a thing. Given the fact that you are perhaps the most vocal here about removing the choice of a game type from many players who desire it. You say that having the choice in the game will crush all other choices. Yet you demand that the choices of anyone that is not you be crushed before the game ships in order for you to be satiated.
You try to fit soloer, group, and raider into nice neat little packages that are easily issolated and seperated. You see the scope of the game as completely linear with no regard whatsoever about how they overlap and intertwine. You seem believe that if a person raids, that they never group or solo. And if they do, you're perfectly ok with them lacking in all 3, since you are only affected by one.
Further, you seem to define your level of enjoyment in a game entirely on what other people have. You prefer to solo, which means you prefer to mitigate your risks by issolated them all to your own actions. You choose not to dedicate time in cooperation with other players to conquer aspects of the game. And yet you feel entitled to have the power they gain by doing so.
The problem I have with Vanguard is not that it is focusing about raiding, I would not mind(do you see me troll endlessly DnL or EVE? I am sure I would like those games even less...yet I dont complain, because they never LIE to me)...if they would not be LYING! They keep saying they care about casuals & Groups! LIES! Groupers are sub-par heros inside of the grouping system, and casuals cant even aspire to be sub-par, they are in the lamest spot, completely behind.
This is a patently flase statement, and frankly it's insulting. They have said that they want to make areas of the game available to casuals. And they are. They've said that they want to make areas of the game (the bulk of the areas, from the sounds of it) for grouping. And they are. They have said that there will be raid content, spanning most levels. We have no reason to believe that they aren't. And until proven otherwise, I have to say that this is also true. They have said that soloers will never get the same rewards as groupers. Which is true. They've said that groupers will never get the same rewards as raiders. Also true. They've said that a casual player will find it difficult at best to solo in a group area. And they've said that a group will be hard pressed to group in a raid area. And they've said that a soloer will probably find it impossible to solo in a raid area. No appologies, but certainly no lies. You are blatantly lying about the statements made by devs. All of the above dev statements are true. Period.
They have never even suggested that a casual player will approach the effectiveness of a grouper or raider. Ever. In fact, they've said the reverse many times, without appologies, and without deviations. If you are strictly a casual player, you will never achieve nearly as much as a more hardcore player. Period. There's no grey area there, and no room for interpretation. And you've lied by stating otherwise. For what purpose, I can only imagine. But seriously, if you need to start lying to make your case, your case is already lost.
Leveling & equipment cant be splitted for an achiever. It just dont work. A game is solo friendly or not. A game is grouping friendly or not. Vanguard is NOT on both and they keep saying they are. It would be like saying that in current China you reward hardwork, the fact they hardwork 99% of the time dont bring the reward and thereby it is a LIE! And dont fool yourself, grouping in Vanguard is sub-par to raiding, remove that grouping or raid and just put raid, we both know it.
I don't know that I've ever heard a Vanguard dev use the term 'Solo Friendly' in regards to Vanguard. If you want to claim they do, fine. But it doesn't make it true. Calling them a lier on statements they never made makes your claim hold no more water.
I've been among the dozens on this forum for months telling you, among others, that this has never claimed to be a solo-friendly game. You and I have had discussions here about this game, where you stated that Vanguard would fail, specifically because they don't claim to be solo-friendly. Pick a stance and stick to it.
Vanguard is all about raiding, everything else is merely a distraction to get to the point of raiding and thereby trivial and pointless. Yet, Vanguard staff is LYING and keep doing it on a daily basic.
Vanguard is a shitty grouping game, even shittier for solo. It offer raiding and it have a few others gameplays inserted artificially in order to allow you the first levels or raiding...it remain a shitty grouping game, and even shittier soloing game.
Wow. I guess your the only one that isn't a Sigil dev or Microsoft Games Studio employee thats gotten to play the game. There is quite simply no other way that you could make such a statement with any accuracy at all.
Listen: You need to move on. This game has ALWAYS STATED PLAINLY that it will not be something that fits your desires. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you not agreeing with them. There are many titles on the market that come closer to your desires than this one.
But honestly, your attempts to hijack this one game, and turn it from what we want into what you want is really really annoying. I DONT WANT TO PLAY A GAME YOU WANT TO PLAY. I'm not right. You're not right. We just have differing opinions. But I'm not going to forums for games that dont come close to my desires and turn them into a game I want. I'm smart enough to see the arrogance, greed, and stupidity in trying to do so.
Originally posted by ste2000 Anofalye, I thought I was clear about soloing in Vanguard.
Ok lets split the game in 2 sections: 1)Leveling and 2)Equipment
1)Leveling: In Vanguad you will be able to level at the same pace whether you play solo or in Group. There will be some classes that will be more solo friendly, so if you want to level by not grouping you can do that, you just need to choose the right class.
hehe this is the part that worries me. I hate trying to guess which route to take and then even if I guess right, hope it doesnt get nerfed. And asking for an opinion often nets 10 different answers with 9 answers being wrong.
2)Equipment: You won't be able to get the best items if you don't group or Raid, so solo to get good equipment is not advisable. This part is understandable. I wouldnt expect to get my best gear on my own from a simple lucky drop off a non-elite mob
This system will allow people to solo 70-80% of the time (for leveling purposes), and 30-20% of the time to group/raid to get a good equipment. I think this is a good balance that makes everyone happy. I refuse to believe that any Solo player want to Solo 100% of the time whether is for leveling purposes or to get good equipment. It is not in the nature of MMORPGs. The situation I described above is the best solution for everyone, I believe. If the figures are around that then I'd be quite pleased with the game.
Vanguard is an Item Centered game, meaning that in order to be succesful in the game you need good equipment, that s why Sigil says that the game is group oriented, because for the nature of the game (get good equipment) you need to group, Sigil didn't said that you won't be able to level by soloing, the opposite is true. In my opinion items matter little in a level based game with a damage multiplier. Having an epic wand that is absolutely the best in game doesnt make much difference over a crummy one. Thanks to damage multiplier, items have a diminishing return of value. Sure I might kill something +4 levels above me a bit easier, but I still would kill it regardless. Same with weaker mobs, I still win just a bit quicker in battle. The only thing I can see mattering for gear in a level based game is for PvP (which i belive game doesnt have, nor do i participate in anyway).
To get good equipment you don't need to group 100% of the time, 30% will be enough.
Now I want to understand what is your definition of solo, because if you think that a player should be able to play 100% of the time by himself and achieving the same goals of people that group more often, then what you need is an offline game, not a MMORPG.
Definitely dont think that. My main concern with a game is whether i can level on my own for the most part and on occasion get my own ubber gear. If I only have an hr to play, I like to be able to make some progress to the next level without having to search for a group (like in EQ2). However if I have a few hrs to kill, grouping would be my normal type of playstyle
I get a different impression of what solo'ing will be like in Vanguard. By my understanding, you will be able to solo through any level. However the rate of progress will not be equivelant to grouping. One of the devs (I think it was Brad, but can't be certain), said that he wasn't sure that people would consider the xp earned solo to their liking, and that it really depended on the person. But that it would not be as good as grouping.
And no, you won't get gear at or perhaps even near the quality that a group would if you always solo.
Comments
As long as raiders are better then non-raiders in non-raiding activities, they are raiding games.
So yes, EQ2 and WoW are raiding games. However, they are nothing compare to EQ or Vanguard, granted. Chess, Risk and Axis & Allies are all boardgames. EQ, EQ2, WoW and Vanguard are all raiding games. A soloer or a grouper have no reason to even consider any of those 4 titles if the END game matter to them as much as the progression to it itself. Unless they are also raiders, in which case they may consider those titles and see differences depending on how much of a raider they are.
But for a soloer or a grouper who happen to NOT be a raider, it is all the same nightmare over again and again.
So EQ2 and WoW dont please real raiders, and they dont please soloers or groupers eithers. They are for casual raiders. Anyone that say otherwise have an agenda they try to fullfill or are plainly ignorants. EQ is more a raiding game then ever, and Vanguard will have hard issues to even meet half the raiding content of old EQ!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
See, I agree with you.
Of course WoW and EQ2 have raids, and in particular EQ2 is very raid oriented.
But the fact that you are forced to raid, doesn't make it a good raiding game.
Everyone can lead a raid in EQ2, there is no challenge whatsoever.
Raiding in EQ2 is about quantity, not quality. The more players in the raid the best chances you got to succeed.
Yes EQ2 doesn't please either hardcore raiders nor the soloers, and that s why it is crap, because is a hybryd product to appeal everyone, and because it compromises in everything, it doesn't make anyone happy.
Games like Vanguard are definetly for raiders, in the extent that the if you want the best loot, you are forced to raid, but at the same time it will be soloable.
I believe that, like in the old EQ, there will be 3 or 4 classes that will be able to solo easily, but only level wise.
Although they will be able to level at the same pace as people that group often, they won't be able to get the same high level items, that will get if they will decide to raid.
I think this is a fair compromise.
If you don't like to group all the time, and prefer to level by soloing, you will be able to do so.
But obviously when we talk about best equipment, it is only fair that you get the best one by raiding.
In the end, taking part in 1 raid a week doesn't seems to me such a bad compromise for a solo player, because you will be soloing 80% of the time, and grouping for the remaining 20%.
In the end this is a Massively Multiplayer game, and if you want to solo 100% of the time and get the same equipment of people that group, then maybe, MMORPGs are not for you after all.
And as long as you can get the same rewards for soloing as you can for grouping or raiding, then it is a solo game. Even if you wanted to group, you would be hard pressed to find anyone to group with if the game doesn't give higher rewards for grouping (see pre-CU SWG). You WILL be able to solo in Vanguard (most likely better with some classes than others), but you will NOT get the same rewards for soloing.
I don't really consider WoW to be a "Raiding" game. Yes there is plenty of raid content when you're level 60 but you can get a pick me up group for just about every instance there is within a few minutes. EQ 1 had alot more excitment when you actually found a good raid invite from another guild or your own to do a good long raid that you knew would be exciting and possibly very rewarding. In WoW it's more like "Woop-dee-doo I'm doing a Stratholme run!". Sure theres a few such as Molten Core where you're probably going to need some qualitiy players to make it anywhere in there but i've still seen pick me up groups for there as well. I've always loved solo content and refuse to waste my few hours a day looking for a group to get anything in the game done at all but I seriously doubt that will be the case with Vanguard.
As much as I love to solo I still think it needs to be reasonably tough and if it will make it possible and/or easier to solo at higher levels by achieving uber gear from raiding then its deffinately worth the time and effort. In WoW I soloed all the way to level 60 in no more than few months and I'm probably more of a casual gamer who plays 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and anywhere from 2-8 hours on weekends.
So if you like plenty of solo content, WoW is the game for you. You'll be able to solo with any class all the way up to level 60 with ease. When you want some good gear you can find a pick me up group for any instance you want to do, no problem. I have no major problems with the game, its fun for the meantime but you'll never really feel useful in this game no matter what class you are. In EQ 1 it would be unheard of to not have a single cleric on a raid. In WoW you can substitute a priest with a paladin or druid in most cases, its pretty ridiculous. I;m a warrior and theres no real super effective way to keep aggro on the mass loads of mobs in the instances, everything is just very very sloppy and mobs bounce back and forth on every group member. The game is plain out a sloppy kind of fun if you like that sort of thing.
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
you want a positive post...I hope Vanguard is a huuuuuge hit. Course my reasons are evil...big success means more peeps leave the SWG game and its evil master SOE behind.
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
Today for example in WoW....
Spent an hr going through an instance. We get to a spot where everyone knows or should know to hug the wall to avoid aggros. Sure enough someone wonders too far over and gets us all killed. Then while we all wait, that idiot decides to take the penalty and revive to fix his gear. Then we gotta fight our way back to entrance to get him back inside. This takes 45 minutes. About halfway down, we get to a spot and meet one of the bosses. We were doing fine, then one player falls off the ledge (our healer) like an idiot. And sure enough another suddenly loses connection.
I was only there to get the chance to roll on a boss' item and never did. I got very little xp, total aggravation, damaged gear that my loot from instance didnt even cover expenses for...real nice group experience. And this is typical of groups...bleh. No thanks
And there will be some solo play in Vanguard.
And so what if the target audience is a minority? Oh well, they're targeting a different playerbase, so what? Is it some kind of rule that designers have to focus on the majority? Nope!
I like to group, and I like to solo too... But I don't want a game that is pretty much completely solo. The only time I'm gonna solo is if I want to be alone, or I'm looking for a group and want some exp.
Today for example in WoW....
Are you jocking?????????????
WOW is 70%-80% solo content, how can you complain of WoW being a group centered game?
The next step after WoW is playing an offline game while chatting at the same time in a chatroom.
I think that s what you are looking for mate.
The solo games that you want don't exists and never will (In the MMORPG world).
The closer you can get is WoW and Guild Wars.
Vanguard will be 100 times more group oriented than WoW, so this game is definetly not for you.
Also I just want to inform you that this game has been designed for the "minority" of players that you talk about.
Another reason to leave Vanguard alone and try another game.
Yes WoW is highly solo possible game at the beginning. However, at later stages one must group for the best gear and instances. And for that, I have no problem at all. The only issues I have with WoW are..
1. immature player base with no clue on how to play a mmorpg. They're lack of experience and ability to pay attention are a real annoyance in group settings. And not just things like not filling their roles correctly (dont dare and try to tell a warrior he should be wearing a shield in a group). Little things like not bothering to respond to questions or tells is a frequent occurrence for some odd reason.
2. No end-game for solo players. At level 60, there is zero quests or content for a solo player. The only thing to do is go on raids or group for the elite instances.
3. Level based, never liked it and never will. Its a cheap way for developers to make a game. Case in point, SWG pre-CU where mobs had distinct resists to certain attacks, etc. To redo the combat, SOE went the cheap, easy, and fast route and redid game to level based bleh. Also level based games with a damage multiplier predetermine pve outcomes for the most part. Therefore gear really matters very little. It kinda kills the solo players point to play, knowing that it wont matter to spend time and effort to get the best gear and loot cause in the end its pointless (in lvl based game). In a skill based game, my effort matters. I can actually make myself better with time and effort. Everyone's the same in a level based game.
Anyway, I dont fault Vanguard for going their route at all. My original post was merely expressing my disappointment in yet another mmorpg on my list I can assume wont appeal to me. And I do think I read somewhere that solo play will be possible. If its anything close to WoW then Ill most likely try it.
ps. is vanguard level based or skill based game ?
Ignorance, total ignorance Fadeus...no wonder you're such a fanboy of SWG post CU. Lets set the record straight since peeps like you dont seem to grasp basic concept like solo play.
Soloing doesnt make me a recluse and anti-social. It just means I dont want to pay a monthly fee and then be at the mercy of some kiddies for my fun. I dont want to log in, spend an hr looking for the right group doing the exact right mission Im working on, wait for everyone to revive cause some cowboy cant control his attack or pet, etc.
When I and many others say "solo" we mean... log in and go kill whatever and wherever we like. Get halfway through and decide to go elsewhere ? No problem cause we answer to only ourselves. Feel like going for another hour ? Sure, cause as a solo player we dont have to quit because half the group dropped out soon as they got the one loot they only came for.
After a night soloing whatever I want. I then head in to the cantina/bar/med center/ auction house, and do my socializing there. I buy stuff, chat, heal up, emotes for laughs, and more. I would hardly call this being a recluse.
Ultimately, its peeps like you that rail against us solo players cause you think we're out to play Morrowind. Thats not the case, I want players to chat with while Im killing stuff (even if they're not right next to me). And the night is never complete without finishing off in someplace like IF auction house for some chatter.
Guess you didnt get your wish though with SWG so Im guessing you're quitting ? You dont want to play alone, well all the servers are light and probably 1/3 quit and more to follow.
Dude I haven't seen you put one positive post in any forum yet. Your just a MMORPG.com troll. Im sorry SOE didnt make SWG just exactly the way you want it. Get an education and make games yourself and get over it. I can't wait for Vanguard. If you wanna solo seriously get a gamecube and you can always chat on msn at the end of the night. Its good to have to group and actually have to deal with people rather than just go off and kill mobs by yourself like a hermit. But really just go play what game you want and stop trolling every games forum. I suggest you play Pac-Man. Tons of mobs to solo and no forced grouping
you want a positive post...I hope Vanguard is a huuuuuge hit. Course my reasons are evil...big success means more peeps leave the SWG game and its evil master SOE behind.
And no this, you are the minority opinion. Most players want some solo play in their mmorpg. Maybe you prefer and need a group to enjoy your gaming experience but not for many of us. For socializing, selling/buying and general guild chat I get all the chatter I need. Thats why i play a mmorpg. I dont need a group like in WoW for combat where i get a bunch of kids with no clue on how to play.
Today for example in WoW....
Spent an hr going through an instance. We get to a spot where everyone knows or should know to hug the wall to avoid aggros. Sure enough someone wonders too far over and gets us all killed. Then while we all wait, that idiot decides to take the penalty and revive to fix his gear. Then we gotta fight our way back to entrance to get him back inside. This takes 45 minutes. About halfway down, we get to a spot and meet one of the bosses. We were doing fine, then one player falls off the ledge (our healer) like an idiot. And sure enough another suddenly loses connection.
I was only there to get the chance to roll on a boss' item and never did. I got very little xp, total aggravation, damaged gear that my loot from instance didnt even cover expenses for...real nice group experience. And this is typical of groups...bleh. No thanks
so your saying that most people would rather just solo all the time and be able to kill things at high levels to get the best loot in the game???? im sorry to say not only are you dead wrong but no game will ever be made like that hehe (no mmorpg that is) and the minority is actually YOU! most people play these games to interact with other people, thats why i play... i do agree however there should always be a option to solo but you SHOULD NOT!! be able to get the best loot in a game by soloing because what would the point of a group be then???? think about what your saying its MADNESS!!!!!
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I am sorry to tell you guys, but Admi is making more sense then most of you as far as understanding soloing.
See, as a grouper I want a reason to GROUP.
Why would a soloer not want a REASON TO SOLO? Anyone that assume a soloer should be happy in WoW should also assume that different but equal was enought for the black folks in the USA.
Solo uberness need to belong to soloers, not to groupers, raiders, tradeskillers, PvPers or anyone else that is not a soloer.
If instead of focusing on insulting others, you would listen to their messages, you might eventually understand. Making solo lame and unrewarding is not enought. Solo uberness need to be earned soloing, not while doing anything else but soloing.
But again, many peoples want to insult a soloer and discredit him right away. Soloers dont want to be the best overall, they want to be the best at soloing! Quite simple, quite logical, and quite motivating!
I would group as long as group uberness is earned while grouping, and I would solo as long as solo uberness is earned soloing when I cant group for any reason(encountering solo haters is a good reason to not want to group for a few days).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You're beginning to sound like a broken record Ano. Except for the few permanent nay-sayers, those of us who frequent the forums of grouping games do so because we like to group ... simple. Frankly, I am not interested in being enlightened about the philosophy of soloing, and I am willing to bet most of the other guys here aren't either. I feel quite confident I can solo as good as anyone, including you, and, again, I'm willing to bet these other guys can too. The thing with soloing is, well, it's soloing ... there ain't a lot to talk about
It continues to baffle me why some of you even play social games. You can get all the "solo uberness" you want playing offline games by yourself. Instead, you stick yourself in a social environment and then complain that it's a social environment
The game will have soloing. Your soloing uberness will be pushing yourself to the limit of what you can do with your class all alone. Soloers aren't being punished for soloing, groupers are being rewarded for grouping.
If you want to solo, and be the big hero of the game (PvE), you really need to play a single player game. Because in an MMORPG that lets soloers kill anything, you end up with everyone being able to kill everything (see SWG pre-revamp).
I prefer to group over soloing myself, so the Wickles is beside the point and just trying to insult me rather then understand me, and I will repeat myself until you understand, even if I need to do it 10k more times.
And yes, soloers are been punished by been lames and unable to achieve the top of soloing.
A game with 1 overall system should clearly say it so, and Vanguard is not telling it is penalising groupers(non-raiders), and you wonder why I keep posting here?
In Vanguard, groupers are been punished for not been raiders, and they are doomed to be lames and second class heros, yet, Vanguard is strongly and falsely advertising pro-grouping, which is all lie, it is a RAID OR BE LAME setting. As long as they will keep a false form saying casuals, grouping and raiding, I will complains. Casuals cant be happy in Vanguard, they are not ruling the casuals area! A casual to be happy need to rule the casual aspect of the game, otherwise you bluntly lie.
And guess what, I am not afraid to face the ire of the vocal minority.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Not to be an ass... But how do you know? Have you played it? Most dungeons are for grouping, and there are going to be quite a few dungeons and very few locked zones, so basically everything can be grouped or raided in.
Not to be an ass... But how do you know? Have you played it? Most dungeons are for grouping, and there are going to be quite a few dungeons and very few locked zones, so basically everything can be grouped or raided in.
Do you think, 1 moment, that the father of raiding, Brad, will allow raiding to not give the best rewards and completely outmatch grouping and make groupers lames in the same process? I dont care if 95% of the game to a point is something if the end is not also that something, for an achiever, the end, the goal, is all that matter. It is pointless if you consider anything but the END. And in the END, all non-raiders lack in their system.
Also, didnt you notice, they say:
Casual, grouping and raiding.
In that precise order...like 1,2,3. But what they say is they focus on casuals, grouping and raiding. This is a LIE! A casual will never be the best in a casual zone, he will always be a secondary toon. A grouper will never be the best in a grouping zone, it will all belong to raiders, those who are ''more worthy''. And they still say they have 3 focus on the game...LIE!
The game is about raiding, raiding and raiding! Everyone else is lame and pointless and should start raiding. (like pre-SoL EQ, which is what they use to compare, all the time, their words, yet they dare say they have 3 focus, LIES).
I hate peoples that lie in order to get me to waste my money on unworthy products. And this is exactly what they do, they make an unworthy grouping system because groupers will always be second class heros, and they dare say grouping will be nice...grrrr! I will bite them soon! I swear!
PS: Non-achievers should not even bother to try to understand me, they cant.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ok lets split the game in 2 sections: 1)Leveling and 2)Equipment
1)Leveling: In Vanguad you will be able to level at the same pace whether you play solo or in Group.
There will be some classes that will be more solo friendly, so if you want to level by not grouping you can do that, you just need to choose the right class.
2)Equipment: You won't be able to get the best items if you don't group or Raid, so solo to get good equipment is not advisable.
This system will allow people to solo 70-80% of the time (for leveling purposes), and 30-20% of the time to group/raid to get a good equipment.
I think this is a good balance that makes everyone happy.
I refuse to believe that any Solo player want to Solo 100% of the time whether is for leveling purposes or to get good equipment.
It is not in the nature of MMORPGs.
The situation I described above is the best solution for everyone, I believe.
Vanguard is an Item Centered game, meaning that in order to be succesful in the game you need good equipment, that s why Sigil says that the game is group oriented, because for the nature of the game (get good equipment) you need to group, Sigil didn't said that you won't be able to level by soloing, the opposite is true.
To get good equipment you don't need to group 100% of the time, 30% will be enough.
Now I want to understand what is your definition of solo, because if you think that a player should be able to play 100% of the time by himself and achieving the same goals of people that group more often, then what you need is an offline game, not a MMORPG.
Admriker444, the episode you describe about WoW it is something of a recurring thing in Blizzard game.
You say that you are fed up because you are forced to group with inexperienced players or plain idiots, in order to be succesful in a dungeon.
I agree with you, that s what WoW is all about.
But did you ask yourself why WoW is in this situation?
The reason is because the game is too easy for everyone and too solo friendly.
That gives the chance for everyone to solo til lvl 59, skilled or clumsy, smart or idiot, it doesn't matter everyone can solo and everyone can create an Uber character.
So what happens is, that when people reach high levels and they are forced to group in order to get good equipment you are most likely to find 3-4 idiots in your group, that will fuckd up everything.
The reasons are:
1) People is not used to group, cause they usually solo for the first 50 lvl.
2)The fact that you are not forced to group, makes everyone solo, and because the solo content is fairly easy, any idiot can max a characters.
Unfortunately the fact that the WOW gameplay doesn't allow a strict selection of players at the beginning of the game, that will result in bad experiences with groups at a later stage, hence your adversity to group.
In Vanguard you won't have this problem cause the worst people will give up on the game at early stages, and only mature and skilled people will last, making grouping and raiding extremely fun and rewarding.
I hope it is more clear
1- Grouping will not give the best reward, you will need to raid.
2- Solo uberness to soloers.
3- Group uberness to groupers.
4- Raid uberness to raiders.
Overall uberness is a dating concept and will lead to 1 gameplay crushing all others(raiding crushing non-raiding in Vanguard for exemple).
(from an achiever point of view who dont like raiding) It would be pointless to have a game where you can solo & group 95% of your playing time, if in the end, you need to raid to ''reach your goal''. Pointless waste of time. Dont even bother and jump to the next game, it have 0 solo & grouping appeal. Since the ENDING matter a LOT to an achiever.
The problem I have with Vanguard is not that it is focusing about raiding, I would not mind(do you see me troll endlessly DnL or EVE? I am sure I would like those games even less...yet I dont complain, because they never LIE to me)...if they would not be LYING! They keep saying they care about casuals & Groups! LIES! Groupers are sub-par heros inside of the grouping system, and casuals cant even aspire to be sub-par, they are in the lamest spot, completely behind.
The best toon in Crushbone should be a level 15 wearing Emperor Crush gear, not some lameass level 60+ wearing whatever nonsense from uberland. The best person in Sebilis should be wearing a RBSS and that type of gear, not a CoF! And as long as they will LIE and say they care about grouping, while in fact they dont care 1 single moment, I will be angrily trolling around!
Leveling & equipment cant be splitted for an achiever. It just dont work. A game is solo friendly or not. A game is grouping friendly or not. Vanguard is NOT on both and they keep saying they are. It would be like saying that in current China you reward hardwork, the fact they hardwork 99% of the time dont bring the reward and thereby it is a LIE! And dont fool yourself, grouping in Vanguard is sub-par to raiding, remove that grouping or raid and just put raid, we both know it.
Soloers need to reach the TOP of the soloing and be the best soloers. Nothing more, nothing less. They dont care if they cant do nada in raids or groups, they dont solo for any other reason then soloing.
(replace soloers with any others terms like groupers, PvPers, Casual or whatever, and change the adjective adequately)
And still...Vanguard is still claiming they are about CASUAL, GROUPING and RAIDING!
LIE, LIE and the only focus. 67% lie = quite bad in my dictionnary.
Vanguard is all about raiding, everything else is merely a distraction to get to the point of raiding and thereby trivial and pointless. Yet, Vanguard staff is LYING and keep doing it on a daily basic.
Vanguard is a shitty grouping game, even shittier for solo. It offer raiding and it have a few others gameplays inserted artificially in order to allow you the first levels or raiding...it remain a shitty grouping game, and even shittier soloing game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Baloney
I think I understand what you're saying pretty well by now .... you've been saying it continuously for as long as I've been reading this site. And my point is not to insult, merely to suggest you quit jousting windmills and go play the games designed for your preferences. From what I've seen you just complain about every mmorpg, which I would think might give you a message.
Heck, I don't even believe you prefer to group, since you've been railing about soloing endlessly. Just look at your signature.
You're not going to find a game that's equally balanced between soloing, grouping, and raiding. Number one it isn't possible, and number two the market has developed totally into a niche market. Nevertheless, there are innumerable soloing opportunities out there right now. WOW is primarily solo until the raid level. You can sure solo an enormous amount of SWG. I can solo EQ2 all day long if I want - quite productively ... NOT everything in the game, but plenty - too much, really. Etc. Etc.
So companies MARKET their games, something you prefer to call lying. It's marketing, get over it. LIke it or not, it's the way of the world. You really can't blame people who are selling a product from trying to get people to try the product. They work hard, they put a lot of money in, and they would like people to try it. It could easily be that somebody tries it for one reason and then finds out they like it for another reason. It's not like you're signing up for life anyway. You try it and stay if you like it or leave if you don't. But Vanguard clearly isn't being designed to focus on the soloer ... end of story. Sure there will be soloing. There was always soloing available in EQ1, except maybe during the initial PoP period it simply became too unproductive for a while, but people constantly complained they couldn't solo when the truth was they could. Overall, though, the game was a grouping and raiding game, and everyone knew it. End of story. By now I would think it would be clear to you that Vanguard is not going to focus on your soloing uberness (thank god) ... I just can't see why you don't accept that already. It's simply not going for that niche. Vanguard is going for another niche - one which a lot of us feel isn't being addressed at the moment.
And yeah, people who kill mobs that take 6 people will get items better then those dropped by mobs that take one person. And people who kill mobs that take 30 people will get better items yet. Makes perfect sense. It's not a soloing game, and more powerful mobs would naturally drop better items.
What are you talking about?
Sigil always stated that this game will be Group oriented and Raids will be the biggest part of this game.
They only mentioned, that leveling by playing solo, will be possible and this is true.
They also said that if you solo you won't be able to get the best equipment available.
Only group/raids will have the best equipment.
These are devs official statements, taken from interviews and forum posts.
Where are the lies?
You cannot be more honest than that.
By saying that this game will be group/raid oriented they are alienating 60-70% of potential customers (big gamble), still, they prefer to be honest so people won't be disappointed later.
Other companies would have said that the game is accessible by everyone, in order to have a bigger player base, for then disappoint them big time (see EQ2).
This game is going to be for people who enjoyed EQ (DAoC and AC), it is a group/raid oriented game, It is made to satisfy this category of players that needs a modern product, so they can stop playing those ancient games.
As I said before, DnL will be solo friendly, so they claim.
It has to be seen if they have been honest or not, it might turn out to be another Raiding game.
At least Sigil has been honest from the beginning.
Be reasonable mate.
I only know a few things about Vanguard soh but as for the solo style i think its very vital...
There were times i couldn't play final fantasyXI from morning time till 8 oclock in the afternoon
because i was in need of a party in order to continue my progress.
Sure that was one of the reasons i quit playing it....
1. Right. As it should be. Those who spend great time, using greater cooperation with thier fellow players, and who take greater risks, should gain the greatest rewards. Its quite simple really.
2 - 4. You keep promoting this, and as I've tried to demonstrate to you before, it's an unrealistic system. Aside from it being obviously contrived, it resolves absolutely nothing.
Your problem seems to be that if a person raids, and gears up with raid level loot, they'll be a better solo'er. You have stated in the past that a person should always be able to solo, because you can't always get a group. Yet you fail to see that you telling a player who raids or groups, that they damn well always better get a raid or a group or they'll be gimped to solo.
You feel as though you are being treated unfairly. I disagree, because I think that those people who commit to the most to cooperation with fellow players should get the greatest rewards (since it is a game about cooperation above all else). And yet you seem to feel that it's perfectly fair to have anyone that's not you be gimped because of their playstyle. Let me restate this in different terms; You are fine with someone being treated unfairly as long as its not you.
1 style of gameplay will only ever be crushed if the choice to do so is removed from the players. I find it endlessly ironic that you would state such a thing. Given the fact that you are perhaps the most vocal here about removing the choice of a game type from many players who desire it. You say that having the choice in the game will crush all other choices. Yet you demand that the choices of anyone that is not you be crushed before the game ships in order for you to be satiated.
You try to fit soloer, group, and raider into nice neat little packages that are easily issolated and seperated. You see the scope of the game as completely linear with no regard whatsoever about how they overlap and intertwine. You seem believe that if a person raids, that they never group or solo. And if they do, you're perfectly ok with them lacking in all 3, since you are only affected by one.
Further, you seem to define your level of enjoyment in a game entirely on what other people have. You prefer to solo, which means you prefer to mitigate your risks by issolated them all to your own actions. You choose not to dedicate time in cooperation with other players to conquer aspects of the game. And yet you feel entitled to have the power they gain by doing so.
This is a patently flase statement, and frankly it's insulting. They have said that they want to make areas of the game available to casuals. And they are. They've said that they want to make areas of the game (the bulk of the areas, from the sounds of it) for grouping. And they are. They have said that there will be raid content, spanning most levels. We have no reason to believe that they aren't. And until proven otherwise, I have to say that this is also true. They have said that soloers will never get the same rewards as groupers. Which is true. They've said that groupers will never get the same rewards as raiders. Also true. They've said that a casual player will find it difficult at best to solo in a group area. And they've said that a group will be hard pressed to group in a raid area. And they've said that a soloer will probably find it impossible to solo in a raid area. No appologies, but certainly no lies. You are blatantly lying about the statements made by devs. All of the above dev statements are true. Period.
They have never even suggested that a casual player will approach the effectiveness of a grouper or raider. Ever. In fact, they've said the reverse many times, without appologies, and without deviations. If you are strictly a casual player, you will never achieve nearly as much as a more hardcore player. Period. There's no grey area there, and no room for interpretation. And you've lied by stating otherwise. For what purpose, I can only imagine. But seriously, if you need to start lying to make your case, your case is already lost.
I don't know that I've ever heard a Vanguard dev use the term 'Solo Friendly' in regards to Vanguard. If you want to claim they do, fine. But it doesn't make it true. Calling them a lier on statements they never made makes your claim hold no more water.
I've been among the dozens on this forum for months telling you, among others, that this has never claimed to be a solo-friendly game. You and I have had discussions here about this game, where you stated that Vanguard would fail, specifically because they don't claim to be solo-friendly. Pick a stance and stick to it.
Wow. I guess your the only one that isn't a Sigil dev or Microsoft Games Studio employee thats gotten to play the game. There is quite simply no other way that you could make such a statement with any accuracy at all.
Listen: You need to move on. This game has ALWAYS STATED PLAINLY that it will not be something that fits your desires. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you not agreeing with them. There are many titles on the market that come closer to your desires than this one.
But honestly, your attempts to hijack this one game, and turn it from what we want into what you want is really really annoying. I DONT WANT TO PLAY A GAME YOU WANT TO PLAY. I'm not right. You're not right. We just have differing opinions. But I'm not going to forums for games that dont come close to my desires and turn them into a game I want. I'm smart enough to see the arrogance, greed, and stupidity in trying to do so.
-Feyshtey-
In regards to the solo'ing :
I get a different impression of what solo'ing will be like in Vanguard. By my understanding, you will be able to solo through any level. However the rate of progress will not be equivelant to grouping. One of the devs (I think it was Brad, but can't be certain), said that he wasn't sure that people would consider the xp earned solo to their liking, and that it really depended on the person. But that it would not be as good as grouping.
And no, you won't get gear at or perhaps even near the quality that a group would if you always solo.
-Feyshtey-