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So how isnt this pay to win, and skill based.

13

Comments

  • Quazal.AQuazal.A Member UncommonPosts: 859

    ok ive played this game for 8 years

     

    Can someone please tell me what you do in eve to win :)

     

    so if you can't 'win' eve then surely you can't pay 2 win ??

     

     

    This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
    Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  • DeathsmindDeathsmind Member UncommonPosts: 185
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    ok ive played this game for 8 years

     

    Can someone please tell me what you do in eve to win :)

     

    so if you can't 'win' eve then surely you can't pay 2 win ??

     

     

    You cant win a battle? Theres technically no MMO you can win at with what you are trying to get at. So there is no P2W?

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Member UncommonPosts: 959
    your biggest mistake here was playing a open world constant PvP game and not expecting people to squeeze every advantage out of it they could, be it through in game or out of game measure, sure not everyone dose it, but the reality of these kind of MMO is its all about the thrill of being dominat over others and e-peen size, so if you arnt ok with people who play like this you should avoid these kinds of games.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852

    Eve is not P2W.  If anything I'd say it's the other way around. EVE's RMT is different in that CCP isn't the one selling the commodity, which is time. They are more like the brokers taking a cut from the sale. EVE"s RMT uses 3 parties instead of the usueal 2. (2 Players and the Publisher instead of the Player and the Publisher) That doesn't mean the RMT system is good either. I don't think it is since the game now has more multboxers than actual players and the economy is probably much bigger than the actual number of players most of which belongs to the players with the most accounts. And in EVE the advantage goes to the one selling the commodity not the one buying it. Having multiple accounts will always be more valuable than PLEX. People buying PLEX, are just keeping the big names in power. 

  • Quazal.AQuazal.A Member UncommonPosts: 859
    Originally posted by Deathsmind
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    ok ive played this game for 8 years

     

    Can someone please tell me what you do in eve to win :)

     

    so if you can't 'win' eve then surely you can't pay 2 win ??

     

     

    You cant win a battle? Theres technically no MMO you can win at with what you are trying to get at. So there is no P2W?

    why woudl you assume that im a pvper? I dont pvp, and in most other generic MMOs there are dungeons / end bosses heck even ESO you can become emporer,

    So please tell me what is EvE boss? and given im only an industrialist how do i win eve?

     

    This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
    Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  • gunmanvladgunmanvlad Member UncommonPosts: 281

    How is EvE pay-to-win? You might be able to buy a super-high-skill-point char and then top-level equips with cash, but you can do that in ANY game (and it is illegal in most games ofc). 

     

    It is SKILL-POINT based, not SKILL based however.

     

    You've played for 5 years on and off, even 5-10 hours a month, and have enough skills and ISK to buy great equipment...then you will hands down OWN anyone coming into the game fresh. But that applies again to any game. At lvl 1 you can't beat a max lvl character in any game...except stuff like FPS games.

     

    EvE is in no way "skill" based as a FPS game is, or an arena-type game or a MOBA. But it doesn't aim to be...I've always thought the good parts about EvE are long-term character interaction and gameplay, and evolving complex PvP relations.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,650
    Originally posted by Calfis

    Someone who paid to win recently applied to my corp, here is what happened:


    Applicant

    Q. How many skillpoints does your main character have in total?

    A. 71,141,802

    Q. How long have you been playing EVE?

    A. Since January

    Q. Have you ever sold/bought characters on the forums or elsewhere?

    A. Yes

    Q. If yes to the above question, do you currently still own your original main character? (If no to above, leave blank.)

    A. Yes

     

    I only excerpted the bits that showed he basically paid for a high skillpoint character, and of course I did not include his name. So here is the recruiter's response:

     

    Recruiter

    less than 50 kills between all your characters, 

    get the fuck out.

    Rejected this nub

     

    Question, if he wasn't a 'nub' and had just bought his account and played it well (lets say he was some sort of genius and could play right off the bat and was good at the game and lets say had a month of hard core killing under his belt) would you then have accepted him?

    I mean honestly people rarely care if someone paid to win as long as they have skill to back it up too.  At least in my experience.  Which is why I like games that don't encourage pay to win behavior.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,087

    I loved EVE at first , especially the PVP (PVE got boring real fast). But it was the real time skill training that put me off in the end though. It is just not my cup of tea and the fact that CCP facilitates skill training shortcuts for hard cash is lame imo. Even though they are just acting as brokers, it just adds a mechanic that I will never like in a game. It made the real time skill training even more senseless.

    I think it is just wrong to embrace the excuse that fighting goldsellers is impossible, just to take over that business so you can make money from it.  Especially in a PVP centric game like EVE. For me it just changed a chunk of gameplay into rl economy.

    <sarcasm>Why stop there btw? Why not replace PLEX with bitcoins and turn CCP into a bitcoin broker while they're at it? :p</sarcasm>

     

  • DeathsmindDeathsmind Member UncommonPosts: 185

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Eve is not P2W.  If anything I'd say it's the other way around. EVE's RMT is different in that CCP isn't the one selling the commodity, which is time. They are more like the brokers taking a cut from the sale. EVE"s RMT uses 3 parties instead of the usueal 2. (2 Players and the Publisher instead of the Player and the Publisher) That doesn't mean the RMT system is good either. I don't think it is since the game now has more multboxers than actual players and the economy is probably much bigger than the actual number of players most of which belongs to the players with the most accounts. And in EVE the advantage goes to the one selling the commodity not the one buying it. Having multiple accounts will always be more valuable than PLEX. People buying PLEX, are just keeping the big names in power. 

    Thats the whole point the OP made. He said the person with the more accounts, who pays more for accounts, wins almost everytime over the person with 1 account.

     

     

    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    Originally posted by Deathsmind
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    ok ive played this game for 8 years

     

    Can someone please tell me what you do in eve to win :)

     

    so if you can't 'win' eve then surely you can't pay 2 win ??

     

     

    You cant win a battle? Theres technically no MMO you can win at with what you are trying to get at. So there is no P2W?

    why woudl you assume that im a pvper? I dont pvp, and in most other generic MMOs there are dungeons / end bosses heck even ESO you can become emporer,

    So please tell me what is EvE boss? and given im only an industrialist how do i win eve?

     

     

    I never said you were. I just stated how you can win. Also what MMO that has end content like that can you P2W? Almost all end content games that has bosses as the end content do not have anything set up where you can buy anything that will better you.

    The P2W scheme is mostly PVP games where you can buy better stats to beat the person you are fighting. In this you can buy more accounts to help you win at PVP, which the game is about. You never hear about how EVE is some PVE game, you hear about the epic battles against players that EVE has.

  • DrannyDranny Member UncommonPosts: 279
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Its clear that people who have more money in real life have a huge advantage over people who dont. 

    Has this not always been the way of the world.?

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    Originally posted by Deathsmind

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Eve is not P2W.  If anything I'd say it's the other way around. EVE's RMT is different in that CCP isn't the one selling the commodity, which is time. They are more like the brokers taking a cut from the sale. EVE"s RMT uses 3 parties instead of the usueal 2. (2 Players and the Publisher instead of the Player and the Publisher) That doesn't mean the RMT system is good either. I don't think it is since the game now has more multboxers than actual players and the economy is probably much bigger than the actual number of players most of which belongs to the players with the most accounts. And in EVE the advantage goes to the one selling the commodity not the one buying it. Having multiple accounts will always be more valuable than PLEX. People buying PLEX, are just keeping the big names in power. 

    Thats the whole point the OP made. He said the person with the more accounts, who pays more for accounts, wins almost everytime over the person with 1 account.

     

     

    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    Originally posted by Deathsmind
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    ok ive played this game for 8 years

     

    Can someone please tell me what you do in eve to win :)

     

    so if you can't 'win' eve then surely you can't pay 2 win ??

     

     

    You cant win a battle? Theres technically no MMO you can win at with what you are trying to get at. So there is no P2W?

    why woudl you assume that im a pvper? I dont pvp, and in most other generic MMOs there are dungeons / end bosses heck even ESO you can become emporer,

    So please tell me what is EvE boss? and given im only an industrialist how do i win eve?

     

     

    I never said you were. I just stated how you can win. Also what MMO that has end content like that can you P2W? Almost all end content games that has bosses as the end content do not have anything set up where you can buy anything that will better you.

    The P2W scheme is mostly PVP games where you can buy better stats to beat the person you are fighting. In this you can buy more accounts to help you win at PVP, which the game is about. You never hear about how EVE is some PVE game, you hear about the epic battles against players that EVE has.

    You are missing the subtlety of it.

    Those who have the most accounts, are't the ones paying for them.

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    In my oppinion, the only unfair benefit a second account can give you in terms of pvp is the use of off-grid links (basically ships emitting buffs that are undetectable to others). CCp has stated they want to fix this but... we will see. Everything else you do with a second account is the same benefit you'd get from any other mmo really... higher group independence, more sources of income and fun. 

    I'm not denying that having a fat wallet and dumping plexes into the game is going to get you something a non paying player will have... but in the grand scheme of things most engagements are won due to superior tactics, numbers and preparation compared to spending absurd amounts of isk on ships. Also remember that you are never gaining any permanent "advantage" with that either since ships can and will be destroyed... When a daily fleet battle has isk costs in terms of thounds of dollars you start to see it's not really feasible to pay2win anything meaningful in this game. It's not like an alliance can dump all their cash into the game and dominate, that is just silly. Also, the richest players in the game by far have long stopped paying even their own subscription for years. In fact, it's more often the space poor people that have little time to play that use PLEX as a band aid to fund their limited playtime.

    SO no, this game isn't anywhere close to being "pay2win". There are certainly advantages for having more accounts or selling PLEX to other people but none of them are really significant or impossible to achieve for a free player (in fact they are very easy to). Gold/isk in Eve does not give you a linear power gap that you're used to having in other MMOs. It's not a gear grind based game.

  • KomandorKomandor Member Posts: 272
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    In my oppinion, the only unfair benefit a second account can give you in terms of pvp is the use of off-grid links (basically ships emitting buffs that are undetectable to others). CCp has stated they want to fix this but... we will see. Everything else you do with a second account is the same benefit you'd get from any other mmo really... higher group independence, more sources of income and fun. 

    I'm not denying that having a fat wallet and dumping plexes into the game is going to get you something a non paying player will have... but in the grand scheme of things most engagements are won due to superior tactics, numbers and preparation compared to spending absurd amounts of isk on ships. Also remember that you are never gaining any permanent "advantage" with that either since ships can and will be destroyed... When a daily fleet battle has isk costs in terms of thounds of dollars you start to see it's not really feasible to pay2win anything meaningful in this game. It's not like an alliance can dump all their cash into the game and dominate, that is just silly. Also, the richest players in the game by far have long stopped paying even their own subscription for years. In fact, it's more often the space poor people that have little time to play that use PLEX as a band aid to fund their limited playtime.

    SO no, this game isn't anywhere close to being "pay2win". There are certainly advantages for having more accounts or selling PLEX to other people but none of them are really significant or impossible to achieve for a free player (in fact they are very easy to). Gold/isk in Eve does not give you a linear power gap that you're used to having in other MMOs. It's not a gear grind based game.

    Well explained, I agree.

    Keep on rockin'!image

  • LowcaianLowcaian Member Posts: 265

    It's pay to win in the sense that you can take shortcuts. I was in a small corp and we did our mining and paid for our own ships. For a new player this means that he can't pvp as often as he would like and hence it will take longer to develop knowledge (about that particular area of the game).

    I think what most pvpers attribute to a carebear attitude is really something else, at least in EVE. It's the reluctancy to mine or run missions for another 4 hours if your ships gets blown up and against a more experienced opponent it will, in seconds.

    You can't blame people for this if you yourself are in a big corp that throws you a new ship or at least subside it everytime you turn into a fireball.

    I did very little pvp but not because I was a carebear but for above reasons.

     

    image
  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Member UncommonPosts: 311
    Originally posted by someforumguy

    I loved EVE at first , especially the PVP (PVE got boring real fast). But it was the real time skill training that put me off in the end though. It is just not my cup of tea and the fact that CCP facilitates skill training shortcuts for hard cash is lame imo. Even though they are just acting as brokers, it just adds a mechanic that I will never like in a game. It made the real time skill training even more senseless.

    I think it is just wrong to embrace the excuse that fighting goldsellers is impossible, just to take over that business so you can make money from it.  Especially in a PVP centric game like EVE. For me it just changed a chunk of gameplay into rl economy.

    Why stop there btw? Why not replace PLEX with bitcoins and turn CCP into a bitcoin broker while they're at it? :p

     

    Buying a bunch of PLEX to sell for ISK to then use to purchase a higher SP toon is not exactly a "training shortcut". Someone trained the toon, that someone is now selling the toon through CCP's official Character Bazaar. You make it sound as though I can just give CCP my credit card and receive skillpoints on my toons. 

    Also keep in mind that buying a toon off the Bazaar is not always a good thing for the purchaser. If they are not careful they could end up with a toon who is Kill on Site to a major alliance, maybe one they wanted to join. I know someone who bought a toon who was a director in a corp, the director stole billions of isk worth stuff out of the corp hangars, sold it all, sold the account to my friend and started fresh.

    Now my friend is stuck with a toon no one else wants because that corp has him watch listed and is not afraid to suicide gank him in high sec space if they see him. So "shortcuts" don't always pay off, and you don't always emerge a "winner"

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Not done it myself but doesn't having 2 accounts mean you can bring 2 ships along whoever you go and switch to the ship most suited to a particular scenario, also gives an advantage at camps etc. Sounds like pay to win that irather favours vets. A lot of players only want to play single account as per how the game is advertised, not to mention new players that cannot generate in game isk to that degree.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Not done it myself but doesn't having 2 accounts mean you can bring 2 ships along whoever you go and switch to the ship most suited to a particular scenario, also gives an advantage at camps etc. Sounds like pay to win that irather favours vets. A lot of players only want to play single account as per how the game is advertised, not to mention new players that cannot generate in game isk to that degree.

    SO using more than 1 account is pay2win now? Because by that logic every mmo out there is pay2win. At least in Eve you can do it with in-game currency which isn't particulary hard to get.

  • DeathsmindDeathsmind Member UncommonPosts: 185
    Originally posted by uplink4242
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Not done it myself but doesn't having 2 accounts mean you can bring 2 ships along whoever you go and switch to the ship most suited to a particular scenario, also gives an advantage at camps etc. Sounds like pay to win that irather favours vets. A lot of players only want to play single account as per how the game is advertised, not to mention new players that cannot generate in game isk to that degree.

    SO using more than 1 account is pay2win now? Because by that logic every mmo out there is pay2win. At least in Eve you can do it with in-game currency which isn't particulary hard to get.

    Not many actually games out there that have open world pvp that matters. In open world pvp the more people, or in this the more accounts, the better off you are. Open world PVP is one of the main reasons for having multiple accounts like this.j

    Most games have Arenas and battlegrounds where the more account you have the worse you are usually since thats 1 less brain that can be in the game and can really hurt you.

  • CalfisCalfis Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Originally posted by Laughing-man
    Originally posted by Calfis

    Someone who paid to win recently applied to my corp, here is what happened:


    Applicant

    Q. How many skillpoints does your main character have in total?

    A. 71,141,802

    Q. How long have you been playing EVE?

    A. Since January

    Q. Have you ever sold/bought characters on the forums or elsewhere?

    A. Yes

    Q. If yes to the above question, do you currently still own your original main character? (If no to above, leave blank.)

    A. Yes

     

    I only excerpted the bits that showed he basically paid for a high skillpoint character, and of course I did not include his name. So here is the recruiter's response:

     

    Recruiter

    less than 50 kills between all your characters, 

    get the fuck out.

    Rejected this nub

     

    Question, if he wasn't a 'nub' and had just bought his account and played it well (lets say he was some sort of genius and could play right off the bat and was good at the game and lets say had a month of hard core killing under his belt) would you then have accepted him?

    I mean honestly people rarely care if someone paid to win as long as they have skill to back it up too.  At least in my experience.  Which is why I like games that don't encourage pay to win behavior.

    If he actually knew how to play and his recent kills reflected that then he might have been accepted. But I just wanted to highlight the point that simply buying a nice character does not necessarily mean you "win" in fact many people can see thru that bull.

    image

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432

    P2W means you need to pay money to win and even if you buy the best gear in the game, some guy who doesn't know his ship and weapon systems strengths/weaknesses is going to explode faster than the 5 month old newb who knows how to fly his ship and counter the enemy.

    In large scale combat, paying large amounts of money won't buy you a win either.

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257
    Originally posted by Deathsmind
    Originally posted by uplink4242
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Not done it myself but doesn't having 2 accounts mean you can bring 2 ships along whoever you go and switch to the ship most suited to a particular scenario, also gives an advantage at camps etc. Sounds like pay to win that irather favours vets. A lot of players only want to play single account as per how the game is advertised, not to mention new players that cannot generate in game isk to that degree.

    SO using more than 1 account is pay2win now? Because by that logic every mmo out there is pay2win. At least in Eve you can do it with in-game currency which isn't particulary hard to get.

    Not many actually games out there that have open world pvp that matters. In open world pvp the more people, or in this the more accounts, the better off you are. Open world PVP is one of the main reasons for having multiple accounts like this.j

    Most games have Arenas and battlegrounds where the more account you have the worse you are usually since thats 1 less brain that can be in the game and can really hurt you.

    There are people farming battlegrounds in wow with multiple accounts, or soloing older dungeons with alts too. But I get your point, having more accounts in eve does have more of an impact in your outcome, and due to how the combat works it's not very hard to contol multiple accounts either.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413

    If we define "pay to win" as "advancement without activity", then not only is EVE pay to win now, but it was a pioneer in the whole concept.  Offline skill training is advancement without activity, which was there from the start.  Indeed, EVE is one of the few games I know of where you can advance your character just by logging on for a few minutes every week or so setting up market orders and training orders...then you log out and...presto...your goals are met without ever having to be present for it.  And this all went on way before PLEX and so on.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
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  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Numerous times I've seen waves of mutli-boxer bombers get completely destroyed because of one, well piloted interdictor.
    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • NicoliNicoli Member Posts: 1,312
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    There are people farming battlegrounds in wow with multiple accounts, or soloing older dungeons with alts too. But I get your point, having more accounts in eve does have more of an impact in your outcome, and due to how the combat works it's not very hard to contol multiple accounts either.

    Only time you will see Multi-boxed combat being done consistently effectively is in mission PVE, even in Incursion PVE multi-boxers are rare outside of having an extra account for a off grid booster.

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297
    If PLEX make EVE "pay to win" how come all the guys who are actually "winning" are the ones who are playing for free?

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

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