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So how isnt this pay to win, and skill based.

makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096

I was just sitting mining in help chat, and one of those helpers with green text came on. They asked him about multi boxing. He replied its ok to use 3rd party apps to multi box. So I honestly dont see how this game is skill based and not pay to win. If some one has 20 ships, and you only use one . First off you wont be able to compete in mining. Not only that, since most of eve combat is basic and automated, those multi box programs make it so, those people with 20 ships can kill every one, since they out gun you.....

Not that i ever thought the combat in this was anything but garbage, but this makes it so I would never do the combat in this game. I am not gonna buy 20 accounts, so i can compete with 20 man single player gank squads.  When i told him that then it is pay to win, all he said was not really, eve is skill based. 

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Comments

  • ChocoboAstyChocoboAsty Member UncommonPosts: 1
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    I was just sitting mining in help chat, and one of those helpers with green text came on. They asked him about multi boxing. He replied its ok to use 3rd party apps to multi box. So I honestly dont see how this game is skill based and not pay to win. If some one has 20 ships, and you only use one . First off you wont be able to compete in mining. Not only that, since most of eve combat is basic and automated, those multi box programs make it so, those people with 20 ships can kill every one, since they out gun you.....

    Not that i ever thought the combat in this was anything but garbage, but this makes it so I would never do the combat in this game. I am not gonna buy 20 accounts, so i can compete with 20 man single player gank squads.  When i told him that then it is pay to win, all he said was not really, eve is skill based. 

    This is available on every PC MMO Game (multiaccountS). Consoles are that way ---->

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Originally posted by ChocoboAsty
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    I was just sitting mining in help chat, and one of those helpers with green text came on. They asked him about multi boxing. He replied its ok to use 3rd party apps to multi box. So I honestly dont see how this game is skill based and not pay to win. If some one has 20 ships, and you only use one . First off you wont be able to compete in mining. Not only that, since most of eve combat is basic and automated, those multi box programs make it so, those people with 20 ships can kill every one, since they out gun you.....

    Not that i ever thought the combat in this was anything but garbage, but this makes it so I would never do the combat in this game. I am not gonna buy 20 accounts, so i can compete with 20 man single player gank squads.  When i told him that then it is pay to win, all he said was not really, eve is skill based. 

    This is available on every PC MMO Game (multiaccountS). Consoles are that way ---->

    You havent played all games then. One game its not allowed on is UWO. And most other games are to complicated to have combat automated enough where running around with 20 characters is going to help you, not to mention most games cant even run 20 on one computer,

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.
  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    Guess so, I wont be re subbing. 

  • CalfisCalfis Member UncommonPosts: 381

    Someone who paid to win recently applied to my corp, here is what happened:


    Applicant

    Q. How many skillpoints does your main character have in total?

    A. 71,141,802

    Q. How long have you been playing EVE?

    A. Since January

    Q. Have you ever sold/bought characters on the forums or elsewhere?

    A. Yes

    Q. If yes to the above question, do you currently still own your original main character? (If no to above, leave blank.)

    A. Yes

     

    I only excerpted the bits that showed he basically paid for a high skillpoint character, and of course I did not include his name. So here is the recruiter's response:

     

    Recruiter

    less than 50 kills between all your characters, 

    get the fuck out.

    Rejected this nub

    image

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    No it's not p2w, I love newbs using RL money to buy expensive ships, they think they are immortal, I come in with a lowskilled alt toon in a cheap boat and I outskill em, ends with me looting their expensive boat and say "GF"in local with them emologging off and create  "eve sucks" threads on forums.

     

    People that say EVE is P2W, are the ones that really need to L2play, or move on, as the game is apparently too difficult for them.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • kakasakikakasaki Member UncommonPosts: 1,205
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    No it's not p2w, I love newbs using RL money to buy expensive ships, they think they are immortal, I come in with a lowskilled alt toon in a cheap boat and I outskill em, ends with me looting their expensive boat and say "GF"in local with them emologging off and create  "eve sucks" threads on forums.

     

    People that say EVE is P2W, are the ones that really need to L2play, or move on, as the game is apparently too difficult for them.

    The highlighted part was a bit much but you are spot on with the rest. People who think EvE is P2W have either:

    1) Not played the game long

    2) Never joined a corp

    3) Don't really PvP much

     

    Regardless, EvE is what it is. The player base likes it this way, the company likes it this way and if you don't like it..... the door is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> that way!

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • cosycosy Member UncommonPosts: 3,228

    OP is a troll he offers no stats to back the claim that 20 ships multi boxing can be profitable over a large number of pvp encounters

    BestSigEver :P
    image

  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Member Posts: 533

    You can use all the real money you want to buy big shiny ships and characters that can fly them and I know for a fact you wont be winning any time soon.

     

    Its obvious someone is new to the game.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818

    Really...eve is p2w now ? 

    It's almost like any time some mouth breather learns the term they go off and apply it to the first thing they run into a game that costs money.

  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Member Posts: 533
    Originally posted by cosy

    OP is a troll he offers no stats to back the claim that 20 ships multi boxing can be profitable over a large number of pvp encounters

    They also don't know that someone tried to do exactly what they described in the recent tourney and was eliminated very quickly.

     

     

  • korent1991korent1991 Member UncommonPosts: 1,364
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    No it's not p2w, I love newbs using RL money to buy expensive ships, they think they are immortal, I come in with a lowskilled alt toon in a cheap boat and I outskill em, ends with me looting their expensive boat and say "GF"in local with them emologging off and create  "eve sucks" threads on forums.

     

    People that say EVE is P2W, are the ones that really need to L2play, or move on, as the game is apparently too difficult for them.

    The highlighted part was a bit much but you are spot on with the rest. People who think EvE is P2W have either:

    1) Not played the game long

    2) Never joined a corp

    3) Don't really PvP much

     

    Regardless, EvE is what it is. The player base likes it this way, the company likes it this way and if you don't like it..... the door is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> that way!

    No it's actually not too much... I know a few people who dropped EVE because it's too complicated for them and I do agree. The game is so freaking complicated, there's so many things that you have to look after when creating a new ship fit or know where or what to look for when trading or moving precious cargo that it's redicilous. People who claim that EVE can be so easily pushed in P2W sector couldn't be more wrong. EVE is an actual simulation of real life economics/market/behaviour/etc and with its PLEX system everything you do in EVE can be valued in real money just as easily as saying "cookie snithzel" (haha). If you loose a cargo ship it can easily cost you a few hundreds or a few thousands of dollars.

    It's up to you how you use what you got and if you're good enough to make a profit in low or 0 sectors. That's where skill matters, and skill isn't just about combat.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

    image
  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Member Posts: 338
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    No it's not p2w, I love newbs using RL money to buy expensive ships, they think they are immortal, I come in with a lowskilled alt toon in a cheap boat and I outskill em, ends with me looting their expensive boat and say "GF"in local with them emologging off and create  "eve sucks" threads on forums.

     

    People that say EVE is P2W, are the ones that really need to L2play, or move on, as the game is apparently too difficult for them.

    The highlighted part was a bit much but you are spot on with the rest. People who think EvE is P2W have either:

    1) Not played the game long

    2) Never joined a corp

    3) Don't really PvP much

     

    Regardless, EvE is what it is. The player base likes it this way, the company likes it this way and if you don't like it..... the door is ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> that way!

    It doesn't matter how often we tell them things like this, apparently the PvE majority thinks anything that's not scripted with 2 different attacks or doesn't come with an online howto guide is going to whine about any game with PvP. And then there's the wannabe PvP types that are really just closet PvE nubs that think just because they can't join a game and take out a player that's been skilling up for the past 5 years that the game is all p2w. It's not PvP nor griefers that ruin PvP games, it's unskilled lazy people that you could even beat at checkers 10/10 times while watching tv and eating dinner, never once even looking at the board.

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    In its raw form... yes... it is Pay to win. Eve is also not very skill based at all, anyone telling you it is is just lying through their teeth. Better armed ship >>>>>>>> Lesser armed ship in a vast majority of the encounters. 

     

    Still, paying to get anywhere means spending HUGE amounts of cash. The game is about the economy in that form you can in some 'essence' MAKE money off the game as that cash in some way you could consider to be virtual cash. Its not really that bad. Its a money about economy and in that form, while I feel the fact you can buy that money for real dollars, its not going to massively shift things enough. 

     

    Skill in the game isn't really existant, its more about tactics. What your corperation does and how they handle things will dictate how well they do. Unfortuantely this likely won't do much as far as 'turning tables' as those with power will for the most part stay in power unless there is internal strife or two power houses go at each other. Battles are one not by skill but by superior arms + strategy. How you take that, well that is up to you.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Even without multiboxing the game is pay to win since you can buy all the equipment in game with real cash anyway. That's EVE, that's just how it is. I guess it's widely accepted because you lose your stuff when you die, so people dont mind so much as they do with pay to win games where you get to keep all those epics you bought with real money even after death /shrug.

    No it's not p2w, I love newbs using RL money to buy expensive ships, they think they are immortal, I come in with a lowskilled alt toon in a cheap boat and I outskill em, ends with me looting their expensive boat and say "GF"in local with them emologging off and create  "eve sucks" threads on forums.

     

    People that say EVE is P2W, are the ones that really need to L2play, or move on, as the game is apparently too difficult for them.

    This is the myth they tell everyone...the ones that are actually paying to win are using the real cash to buy the cheap boats with ok mods so that they do not have to worry about the loss in suicide runs, ganking in unsafe space, and general pvp...this way they do not have to mine or take part in the ingame economy and can still do the stuff that someone that plays many more hours building up the cash reserve for these activities do. 

    That is pretty much the general definition of P2W...real cash replacing ingame time....

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096

    Besides alot of people getting personally offended.... The people saying it is not pay to win dont stand up. Yes i did not say some one who just started the game could beat some one who has played forever. Let me try to explain again. If I was to sub one account, and just pay 15 bucks a month. And a friend of mine who started at the same time, dumped 10 grand into the game, because hes rich. There would be no possible way for me to ever catch up. Yeah blah you say i can pvp and what.......... Even if i spent more time at the game, which i think takes 0 skill, other then figuring out which parts go where and how the skills work together. The economy takes far more skill and understanding in this game. But the economy was the only reason I was playing.  Yes I could prolly have fun, but it ruins it for me when i hear and see people with their own mining fleets, that are mostly automated. I understand why eve lets people do it, I wassent saying or implying they should change it.

    If they mad every one use 1 account only, I am sure there out of the 40k i see on a day, would drop from that to around 10k. Then all the people that spend god knows how much money. So much money in fact the company can just try to make a game, and fail badly  and just keep going like nothing happened. Would quit.  

    I dont understand why it turned into a heated discussion lol. Its clear that people who have more money in real life have a huge advantage over people who dont. 

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    I was just sitting mining in help chat, and one of those helpers with green text came on. They asked him about multi boxing. He replied its ok to use 3rd party apps to multi box. So I honestly dont see how this game is skill based and not pay to win. If some one has 20 ships, and you only use one . First off you wont be able to compete in mining. Not only that, since most of eve combat is basic and automated, those multi box programs make it so, those people with 20 ships can kill every one, since they out gun you.....

    Not that i ever thought the combat in this was anything but garbage, but this makes it so I would never do the combat in this game. I am not gonna buy 20 accounts, so i can compete with 20 man single player gank squads.  When i told him that then it is pay to win, all he said was not really, eve is skill based. 

     

    Well since you mention mining, what's the player skill involved in that in the first place?

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    In its raw form... yes... it is Pay to win. Eve is also not very skill based at all, anyone telling you it is is just lying through their teeth. Better armed ship >>>>>>>> Lesser armed ship in a vast majority of the encounters. 

     

    Still, paying to get anywhere means spending HUGE amounts of cash. The game is about the economy in that form you can in some 'essence' MAKE money off the game as that cash in some way you could consider to be virtual cash. Its not really that bad. Its a money about economy and in that form, while I feel the fact you can buy that money for real dollars, its not going to massively shift things enough. 

     

    Skill in the game isn't really existant, its more about tactics. What your corperation does and how they handle things will dictate how well they do. Unfortuantely this likely won't do much as far as 'turning tables' as those with power will for the most part stay in power unless there is internal strife or two power houses go at each other. Battles are one not by skill but by superior arms + strategy. How you take that, well that is up to you.

    Perhaps you'd like to provide a fitting list etc, of this mythical 'better armed ship' which will win in the vast majority of encounters, as you can be sure, a lot of corps would pay good isk to lay their hands on it.

    Besides, its mid week and could really do with a good laugh image

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne Member UncommonPosts: 1,549

    This discussion is interesting but it's a moot point, like most discussions about Eve - The central, insurmountable, problem with Eve is that it's becoming obsolete.

     

    Why bother with 3 separate games (Eve Online, DUST, Valkyrie) when you will be able play a game that aims to do all 3 facets in the same game (such as Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen)?

     

    Eve becoming obsolete isn't a question of 'if' - it's a question of whether it will happen in 2015 or 2016.

     

     

  • Covet78Covet78 Member UncommonPosts: 149
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Besides alot of people getting personally offended.... The people saying it is not pay to win dont stand up. Yes i did not say some one who just started the game could beat some one who has played forever. Let me try to explain again. If I was to sub one account, and just pay 15 bucks a month. And a friend of mine who started at the same time, dumped 10 grand into the game, because hes rich. There would be no possible way for me to ever catch up. Yeah blah you say i can pvp and what.......... Even if i spent more time at the game, which i think takes 0 skill, other then figuring out which parts go where and how the skills work together. The economy takes far more skill and understanding in this game. But the economy was the only reason I was playing.  Yes I could prolly have fun, but it ruins it for me when i hear and see people with their own mining fleets, that are mostly automated. I understand why eve lets people do it, I wassent saying or implying they should change it.

    If they mad every one use 1 account only, I am sure there out of the 40k i see on a day, would drop from that to around 10k. Then all the people that spend god knows how much money. So much money in fact the company can just try to make a game, and fail badly  and just keep going like nothing happened. Would quit.  

    I dont understand why it turned into a heated discussion lol. Its clear that people who have more money in real life have a huge advantage over people who dont. 

    It doesn't take very long to max out your mining. And a single player, even one with 20 accounts, cannot be competitive on their own financially. The game is abotu 100's and 1000's of people working together to accomplish goal's. You are doing it wrong if you are playing on your own in your little mining ship. Take's just under 2 months to get the best miner if i recall. 

    No one person is a super hero in eve. 

  • SuperNickSuperNick Member UncommonPosts: 460

    Pay to win = the company actively promotes and encourages you to spend money on their systems (i.e cash shop) to gain advantages over other players who choose not to spend money.

    End of. That is the definition of the term.

    Throwing it around loosely because you dislike how others choose to play the game is something that will get you zero support around here.

     

  • ComanComan Member UncommonPosts: 2,174
    Originally posted by SuperNick

    Pay to win = the company actively promotes and encourages you to spend money on their systems (i.e cash shop) to gain advantages over other players who choose not to spend money.

    End of. That is the definition of the term.

    Throwing it around loosely because you dislike how others choose to play the game is something that will get you zero support around here.

     

    I do not see how Pay to win has anything to do with a company actively promoting it. If WoW would have a superweapon for sale in an almost hidden place in there webshop, players figure it out and advertise it on forums. Would it then not be play to win? The company did not actively promote or encourage it. In fact they put it somewhere hard to find. 

    Do not get me wrong. What the op is talking about is as much pay to win as giving away 20 accounts to your friends. With really is not pay to win. Poeple also seem to think that skill based means that everyone has to be on equal footing. Yes if someone is better geared he has a bigger change to win.

    If I run around with a knife in counter-strike, the person with a AK and armor has a bigger change of winning. I could still win, but the changes are rather small. So yes if you attack a battleship with a frigate you most likely will not survive it. However a character with not a lot of skill point could still be a pain in the ass for a battleship in a well armed frigate in team battles. In fact his role might be vital enough to make sure they win the battle. 

    Skill is also a lot more then twitch combat. 3 frigates can in fact take out one battleship if they outfit well enough and work together well enough.

    Skill is knowing when to fight and when to run, skill is surviving in a harsh envoirement like EvE. Skill is working together. Skill is outfitting you ship perfectly. Skill is know when to use what in a battle. 

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

    This discussion is interesting but it's a moot point, like most discussions about Eve - The central, insurmountable, problem with Eve is that it's becoming obsolete.

     

    Why bother with 3 separate games (Eve Online, DUST, Valkyrie) when you will be able play a game that aims to do all 3 facets in the same game (such as Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen)?

     

    Eve becoming obsolete isn't a question of 'if' - it's a question of whether it will happen in 2015 or 2016.

     

     

    Eve is nothing if its not a game that evolves over time, but i think your misreading the situation, and while Dust may be a lost cause, and Valkyrie an unknown factor, games like Elite; Dangerous and Star Citizen are more than capable of existing side by side with Eve, i don't think its going to be a question of either/or in whether people play them, if anything it just broadens the spectrum of Sci/fi games, which is currently very sparse, with few successes and more than its fair share of failures. I don't see Eve changing in that sense, it will in all probability remain the niche game that has always been, what may happen though, is that the games that people play alongside Eve, are dropped in favour of those games, that i could easily see happening. If their successful enough, it may even have a positive effect on Eve too, though i have to say, the stranglehold fantasy themeparks have on MMO's does need to be loosened. As an Eve player i am really looking forward to both those games, but it won't change whether i play Eve or not image

  • RodentofdoomRodentofdoom Member Posts: 273

    I played Atlantica Online for a little while

    It has a cash shop, a shop that sells items that have a clear advantage over ingame items

    There are questing areas that require pvp score to enter

    There were 2 types of pvp fight, cash shop items enabled (shop buyer wins easily), cash shop items 'capped' (shop buyer not guaranteed a win)

     

    Eve just has plex

    You can use the Plex to short-cut the usual real time based training system

    You can buy a character with the skill-set you want (without spending 2 years training those skills yourself)

    You can use that plex to fund a shiny bling-fit pirate battleship

    neither option gives you an 'I win' button in eve

     

    having the right skills helps, sure.

    having the game mechanics knowledge is better

    having 'friends' along to help helps more ..

     

    can isboxer work ok in pvp ??

    don't know, ive never used it, but from what ive read about it's usage I'd say it has some limitations

    it broadcasts key commands to multiple accounts .. which means each ship in your fleet HAS to be identically fitted

    each ship locks identical targets, points the same target

    that means you have NO flexibility, no ewar coverage of the whole field

    your fleet has a good chance of dyeing.

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne Member UncommonPosts: 1,549
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

    This discussion is interesting but it's a moot point, like most discussions about Eve - The central, insurmountable, problem with Eve is that it's becoming obsolete.

     

    Why bother with 3 separate games (Eve Online, DUST, Valkyrie) when you will be able play a game that aims to do all 3 facets in the same game (such as Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen)?

     

    Eve becoming obsolete isn't a question of 'if' - it's a question of whether it will happen in 2015 or 2016.

     

     

    Eve is nothing if its not a game that evolves over time, but i think your misreading the situation, and while Dust may be a lost cause, and Valkyrie an unknown factor, games like Elite; Dangerous and Star Citizen are more than capable of existing side by side with Eve, i don't think its going to be a question of either/or in whether people play them, if anything it just broadens the spectrum of Sci/fi games, which is currently very sparse, with few successes and more than its fair share of failures. I don't see Eve changing in that sense, it will in all probability remain the niche game that has always been, what may happen though, is that the games that people play alongside Eve, are dropped in favour of those games, that i could easily see happening. If their successful enough, it may even have a positive effect on Eve too, though i have to say, the stranglehold fantasy themeparks have on MMO's does need to be loosened. As an Eve player i am really looking forward to both those games, but it won't change whether i play Eve or not image

     

    Eve will not be evolving over time - the 6-monthly expansions will not happen from now on.

     

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