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Why do people defend pay to win schemes?
-Zeno-
Member CommonPosts: 1,298
I posted about how GW2 became pay to win with the new armors. They were all over me like vulchers. I posted that Archeage is already pay to win and its not even out in alpha and the same thing happens.
Paying real life cash for any type of enhancement is a pay to win scheme. Doesn't matter if its "only 6 points in every stat". You are paying real life cash to get that. Its also not a good thing to start a game with (as in, what other pay to win things will they add in the future).
Why do people defend this crap? Just because they want that instant gratification that they spent $300 on a video game to gain a few stat points over someone who doesn't pay for it? Is this what the MMO's have become now? Whoever has the most RL money spent wins?
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Comments
For some, one is a inappropriate use of money, for others it is an inapropriate use of spare time.
Or do you imply that somehow high ammount of hours spent on raiding/grinding/RNG gamble make more sense than paying real money...?
A few reasons.
1. They like Pay 2 Win because they value their own in-game power over fairness.
2. They don't like being associated as P2Wers by playing a game they like which happens to have P2W aspects, so they downplay the P2W aspect or redefine P2W so their game doesn't fit the new description.
3. Some people are just "fanbois" and will defend a game they like against any perceived criticism.
4. Getting the benefit without paying is a ridiculous grind they will gladly pay to skip, even though a better fix might be to reduce the grind.
Pay 2 Win isn't "good game design" but can be really "good profit design", so as long as there's a market for it there'll be P2W. Depending on how rampant it is, the game can still be highly enjoyable. I admit Hearthstone is a P2W game, but I still enjoy playing it and am not ashamed of doing so. It's OK to like games that are P2W, just don't claim they're not.
Wizard's First Rule!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If you make a game people are willing to play and pay for, how does it make "not a good game design"...?
And what "good game design" is then? Games that people play but do not pay for?
I think you are on your high horse there...
Imagine if soccer/football clubs were able to pay so they can play with 12 players instead of 11, that would be P2W, and not a good design.
Imagine if soccer/football clubs were able to pay for the best players in the world...oh wait...
Dammit, now I gotta read the books again, and do my best to not recall the atrocity that was the show.
If you make a game people are willing to play and pay for, how does it make "not a good game design"...?
And what "good game design" is then? Games that people play but do not pay for?
I think you are on your high horse there...
Most games are Pay 2 Play, so people both pay and play. That's not the same as Pay 2 Win. If someone doesn't have the game, he simply doesn't play at all.
I think the OP has some issues with the definition of things. His signature is a good example of that...so is this thread.
P2W is pretty simple when it comes to items. If you can earn better gear in game then it's not pay to win. Selling a +5 lvl 1 axe that isn't as good as a basic lvl 2 axe in a game that has 50 levels is not pay to win. You make people defend it, when you use the term incorrectly.
An example of Pay 2 Win in soccer:
We introduce a rule where either team can pay $10,000 to "the developer of soccer," to start the game with 1 point. It's still possible for a team that doesn't pay to get 1 point, or even more, but there's no denying that starting with an extra point is a huge advantage in the game. Hence soccer with this rule is a "Pay 2 Win" game.
I am not sure how any of that relate to what I said...but most games are F2P in case you missed the last 5 years, thus there are quite a number of people that do play but do not pay.
Yes, there are some P2P titles but those are mostly dinosaurs or newly released games that racking up money on initial box fees and subs and those are a minority.
There's an enourmous amount of P2P games coming out all the time, but it's not really relevant to the discussion of P2W, so let's drop it.
EDIT: Actually in a way it is. F2P is indeed becoming more common, and as a natural side effect, so is P2W since even F2P games need to generate $$. Thus more people are now playing P2W games.
You have some odd way to miss/ignore the point one was making, twisting it into something OP was not saying, making up an entirely new, unrelated point and then argue it...
I think you will have to explain that one.
I think most people who "defend" "P2W" do so because they do not consider it P2W. For an example i am personally very old school when it comes to P2W. If it is not locked behind a paywall and give you a advantage it is not P2W. Paying to take a shortcut or to beat the RNG is not P2W. Having a potion of awesomeness that give +20 in all stats that only can be bought in the Store for real money is P2W.
A lot of F2P games sit right at this border due to their tierd access system that locks parts of the game to F2P users.
As for the two examples you brought up i have not played either and have no opinion nor experience to offer.
This have been a good conversation
There's an ethical perspective. It is not a good game design if you offer an unfair advantage for real-life money. MMORPG is highly competitive genre and if another player can alter his character by paying for bonuses, the opposing team or player will be at a significant disadvantage and that is not a good game design.
Look up my argument of soccer/football teams above.
Equipment and money matters, you like it or not, and it has nothing to do with ethics. It is, and always has been, a part of your performance. You will never be as fast with sprint spikes from Walmart...
Well there's your problem. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Game of War - Fire Age, that's pay to win. You can directly buy power, and lots of it.
Guild Wars 2 - Ascended gear is not pay to win. The armor is marginally better than exotic and even with it there's nothing to "win" with is. You can't wear it in structured PvP, PvE doesn't need it and in WvW you're just one of many.
Learn what you're talking about before you rant about it.
Oderint, dum metuant.
There are many sports that have salary caps, but it's not doubt that having more money to spend is like cheating. To have a fair game there needs to be a level playing field. Perhaps that's part of why I don't play MMOs anymore.
I've always been disgusted by the idea of paying for virtual items. For those who say they don't want to waste their time then don't play the game. It's really that simple. There are tuns of games out there that don't consume a lot of time. Not every genre has to cater to you.
glad i skipped the show
EQ2 fan sites
That's true, as long as you realize the reverse holds as well. Games don't have to cater to you either.
I'd also like to know which Ascended items are actually for sale in the Gem Store. Last I looked (Monday) there was still just a bunch of skins that have no stats what-so-ever.
Aside from a couple of ascended rings I have only exotic pieces, and I still survive most of the fights I get into in WvW roaming or otherwise. Despite popular belief, GW2 doesn't have power creep in their ascended gear, actually considering the time investment needed to gather the crap you need for ascended sets, the minor upgrade isn't even remotely worth it.
People were probably all over you because you're wrong.
Sorry, but your assertion that any microtransaction makes a game pay to win is NOT to correct definition. Pay to win is a game that creates a payment barrier that gives access to superior items which are not available freely within the game.
So if I was a developer and I offered a "Cloak of Win" on my store for $25 that was +25 to all stats, but the absolute best item in the game was the "Cloak of Meh" which offered +15 to 2 stats, then that's pay to win. It's providing you a distinct and clear advantage over other players that cannot be overcome simply through added time investment.
Crazkanuk
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