Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Creative Labs A250 (2.1) PC Speakers £27.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £472.25
Overclock the CPU and with dual graphics it beats anything else you can find. For performance be sure to look up overclocked A10-7850K with at least DDR3-2400
Not much fat to be trimmed off anywhere. Sorry didn't include Windows. I'm 100% positive you have a copy lying around somewhere.
Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Creative Labs A250 (2.1) PC Speakers £27.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £472.25
Overclock the CPU and with dual graphics it beats anything else you can find. For performance be sure to look up overclocked A10-7850K with at least DDR3-2400
Not much fat to be trimmed off anywhere. Sorry didn't include Windows. I'm 100% positive you have a copy lying around somewhere.
I wouldn't use an APU if your not planning on sticking with the integrated GPU or crossfiring it with a compatible GFX card.
As for the article that inspired this thread, I'd like to see them not upgrade that system one bit over the next 5 years, then do a comparison between how well it's still running new releases versus how well the current gen consoles are. Working within predefined specs allows developers to guarantee a certain amount of visual quality of performance, something that they can't do with the limitless possible specs of PCs. Raw horsepower isn't everything.
PC optimization improves over time too. Game engines get better at taking advantage of features available in systems. Programmers take advantage of those engines better, in return. Don't assume the PC is stagnant.
Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Hercules XPS 2.1 20 ARC Speaker System £20.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £518.25
Ok added Motherboard. Less expensive speakers and ram. Try to OC the RAM as much as possible but 1866 should be quite good.
Went over but IMO this is the best bet. Switching CPU's would require a GPU of equivalent performance that costs 200 pounds. You wont be able to find another CPU/GPU combo that would outperform this for less. Mobo has a VRM heatsink. CPU should OC over 4.5ghz
Power draw should be around 250W overclocked so you probably could downgrade the power supply to 350-400W and be completely safe.
Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Hercules XPS 2.1 20 ARC Speaker System £20.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £518.25
Ok added Motherboard. Less expensive speakers and ram. Try to OC the RAM as much as possible but 1866 should be quite good.
Went over but IMO this is the best bet. Switching CPU's would require a GPU of equivalent performance that costs 200 pounds. You wont be able to find another CPU/GPU combo that would outperform this for less. Mobo has a VRM heatsink. CPU should OC over 4.5ghz
Power draw should be around 250W overclocked so you probably could downgrade the power supply to 350-400W and be completely safe.
XD that's better... though considering this is a long term goal type project I can do one thing to trim down costs: Wait for the A8-7600, upgrade (in my opinion) from the MSI R7 250 to the Sapphire R7 250 (same specs almost) and personally for my own gaming needs 1600 Mhz RAM cards are ample (will try to squeeze in the 1866 ones though to avoid having to OC anything). Considering the A8-7600 is slated for a Q4 release (well Q3-Q4 but I am a pessimist) it should give me ample time to see how mantle's shaping up and also maybe get a lil lucky with price drops ( considering the 800 series from Nvidia is coming Radeon might move to secure the lower end better especially with the A8 coming out ).
Edit: With those two modifications your build is currently the high end option, the one I posted, and modified, in page 3, bottom, is gonna be the failsafe though likely to also shift that over to an A8-7600 and switch out the 260X for a 250 to take advantage of the dual gpu.
XD that's better... though considering this is a long term goal type project I can do one thing to trim down costs: Wait for the A8-7600, upgrade (in my opinion) from the MSI R7 250 to the Sapphire R7 250 (same specs almost) and personally for my own gaming needs 1600 Mhz RAM cards are ample (will try to squeeze in the 1866 ones though to avoid having to OC anything). Considering the A8-7600 is slated for a Q4 release (well Q3-Q4 but I am a pessimist) it should give me ample time to see how mantle's shaping up and also maybe get a lil lucky with price drops ( considering the 800 series from Nvidia is coming Radeon might move to secure the lower end better especially with the A8 coming out ).
Edit: With those two modifications your build is currently the high end option, the one I posted, and modified, in page 3, bottom, is gonna be the failsafe though likely to also shift that over to an A8-7600 and switch out the 260X for a 250 to take advantage of the dual gpu.
Eh the video cards are a toss up. Both have 2gb VRAM and imo both have comparable quality. Personally I prefer MSI though.
The ram should only be downgraded if going with a lesser APU. The A10-7850 really needs it, performance is directly related to bandwidth. And for 10$ jumping all the way to 2400 from 1600 is a no brainer.
IMO Dropping down to the 7600K/7700K for the processor would put the system in a lower non gaming class. Might as well get a cheaper motherboard and drop the CPU cooler and HQ thermal paste. And get a lower wattage PSU. It would also drop performance to easily less than the PS4.
XD that's better... though considering this is a long term goal type project I can do one thing to trim down costs: Wait for the A8-7600, upgrade (in my opinion) from the MSI R7 250 to the Sapphire R7 250 (same specs almost) and personally for my own gaming needs 1600 Mhz RAM cards are ample (will try to squeeze in the 1866 ones though to avoid having to OC anything). Considering the A8-7600 is slated for a Q4 release (well Q3-Q4 but I am a pessimist) it should give me ample time to see how mantle's shaping up and also maybe get a lil lucky with price drops ( considering the 800 series from Nvidia is coming Radeon might move to secure the lower end better especially with the A8 coming out ).
Edit: With those two modifications your build is currently the high end option, the one I posted, and modified, in page 3, bottom, is gonna be the failsafe though likely to also shift that over to an A8-7600 and switch out the 260X for a 250 to take advantage of the dual gpu.
Eh the video cards are a toss up. Both have 2gb VRAM and imo both have comparable quality. Personally I prefer MSI though.
The ram should only be downgraded if going with a lesser APU. The A10-7850 really needs it, performance is directly related to bandwidth. And for 10$ jumping all the way to 2400 from 1600 is a no brainer.
IMO Dropping down to the 7600K/7700K for the processor would put the system in a lower non gaming class. Might as well get a cheaper motherboard and drop the CPU cooler and HQ thermal paste. And get a lower wattage PSU. It would also drop performance to easily less than the PS4.
Actually it wouldn't really do that as the 7600K-7700K are marginal downgrades in performance overall (few frames in low to medium settings on 720p, less that in 1080p) while being cheaper. As I said though it is a long term project, if the A10-7850 gets a price cut to reflect its status and compete with the haswell i3 that is currently cheaper and slightly better then it will become a primary option but as is I could just swap out for that i3 with a 260x and get better bang for my buck while also giving me the option, longer term, to swap the CPU to an i5 once the next gen drops and ivy/haswell go into bargain mode.
Also 1600->2400, depending on how much quality you want from your RAM cards and what brand, isn't 10$ (30-40 euros usually seems to be the variation in the midrange) and I am building it to last not to cook off cards and buy new ones.
The entire reason of going with an APU is that you get a passable CPU with a decent enough GPU for a good price. That saves a bit of money over going the traditional route - the amount isn't huge, but on a very tight budget it can make all the difference.
If your buying an APU only to pair it with another GPU (even if your going to try to CFX the integrated GPU with a discrete GPU), your probably looking at it in the wrong way.
If your going to get a dGPU in the first place, go ahead and get the FX4300 or FX6300 - the CPU is much faster, the motherboards tend to be cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for superclocked RAM. That also gives you a few extra euros to throw at the GPU, which in that price tier, means a good deal.
If your deadset on getting the APU (maybe the price is better? I didn't look), and not use the dGPU at all, then the faster RAM doesn't matter anyway - that faster RAM is really only for feeding the iGPU, it won't make a lot of difference for the CPU.
The entire reason of going with an APU is that you get a passable CPU with a decent enough GPU for a good price. That saves a bit of money over going the traditional route - the amount isn't huge, but on a very tight budget it can make all the difference.
If your buying an APU only to pair it with another GPU (even if your going to try to CFX the integrated GPU with a discrete GPU), your probably looking at it in the wrong way.
If your going to get a dGPU in the first place, go ahead and get the FX4300 or FX6300 - the CPU is much faster, the motherboards tend to be cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for superclocked RAM. That also gives you a few extra euros to throw at the GPU, which in that price tier, means a good deal.
If your deadset on getting the APU (maybe the price is better? I didn't look), and not use the dGPU at all, then the faster RAM doesn't matter anyway - that faster RAM is really only for feeding the iGPU, it won't make a lot of difference for the CPU.
Those two CPUs do not have integrated GPUs thus no dGPU and well:
But the Mobos for the FX-6300 are based on older tech by what I can find thus issues finding one that is both good, in this area, and affordable whereas the A10-7850K has a very good selection of Mobos including the one I picked which can run 1866Mhz RAM cards with no OC so you can burn into the money saved on the CPU itself on getting a good Mobo and it still does not solve the dGPU issue (you need to get two distinct GPUs) so price-wise the A10 actually comes out ahead.
Originally posted by RidelynnI didn't look at prices but:The entire reason of going with an APU is that you get a passable CPU with a decent enough GPU for a good price. That saves a bit of money over going the traditional route - the amount isn't huge, but on a very tight budget it can make all the difference.If your buying an APU only to pair it with another GPU (even if your going to try to CFX the integrated GPU with a discrete GPU), your probably looking at it in the wrong way.If your going to get a dGPU in the first place, go ahead and get the FX4300 or FX6300 - the CPU is much faster, the motherboards tend to be cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for superclocked RAM. That also gives you a few extra euros to throw at the GPU, which in that price tier, means a good deal.If your deadset on getting the APU (maybe the price is better? I didn't look), and not use the dGPU at all, then the faster RAM doesn't matter anyway - that faster RAM is really only for feeding the iGPU, it won't make a lot of difference for the CPU.
Those two CPUs do not have integrated GPUs thus no dGPU and well:
But the Mobos for the FX-6300 are based on older tech by what I can find thus issues finding one that is both good, in this area, and affordable whereas the A10-7850K has a very good selection of Mobos including the one I picked which can run 1866Mhz RAM cards with no OC so you can burn into the money saved on the CPU itself on getting a good Mobo and it still does not solve the dGPU issue (you need to get two distinct GPUs) so price-wise the A10 actually comes out ahead.
I totally do not understand what you are saying here.
AM3+ motherboards on "older tech" - there still available with USB3.0, SATA3/6.0G, DDR3 -- what else do you really need in a motherboard?
You don't need 1866 with a AM3+ motherboard, because you won't be using integrated video. You can use cheaper DDR3-1300 or whatever.
Why do you need 2 discrete GPUs if your not using an APU? Crossfire (and SLI) suck (that is an objective opinion, but I'm not the only one that has it), and you don't want to use them unless you absolutely have to. THe point isn't to Crossfire with an FX CPU, but to get a single faster card in the first place. Planning on using an APU just so you can Crossfire it is a really, really bad idea.
Now, 64 euros in and of itself won't get you a good GPU - that's why the APU is nice on a really strict budget - you get R7-750 level graphics for around 25 euros less than buying a discrete card. But if you are just going to turn around and by a GPU anyway, then why not save those 64 euros, and put that ~plus~ the money you had slated for that GPU, into the GPU? If your spending 90 euors on a GPU with an APU, you could be spending 155 euros on a GPU with an FX CPU (rather than APU), and that gets you considerably better graphics without having to fool with faster DDR3 RAM or Crossfire. 150 euros is getting into the lower-end R9 series, and that's going to beat out APU/R7 250 graphics easily, even Crossfired. You win all the way around on the same budget.
(I'm not terribly familiar with pricing in euros, I just did some really basic looking around on the Warehouse2.de site and looked at some average prices)
Pick either of the video cards, the AMD will probably be the faster of the two, either one will be faster than a Crossfire APU/R7 250 setup
Not my native language, and I didn't go shopping for the best prices, just using the Warehouse2.de site again. There were cheaper motherboards, but I made sure to get one with SATA3/USB3 for parity's sake (and there may have been less expensive or better options than what I picked).
Comes to 124.23 for CPU/MB, with a total of 266.41 for the nVidia 750Ti or 270.43 for the R9 270. That's without any shopping around for deals/sales/best site/etc. And without discounting for the fact that you don't need to pay extra for 1833-2400 speed RAM.
Originally posted by RidelynnI didn't look at prices but:The entire reason of going with an APU is that you get a passable CPU with a decent enough GPU for a good price. That saves a bit of money over going the traditional route - the amount isn't huge, but on a very tight budget it can make all the difference.If your buying an APU only to pair it with another GPU (even if your going to try to CFX the integrated GPU with a discrete GPU), your probably looking at it in the wrong way.If your going to get a dGPU in the first place, go ahead and get the FX4300 or FX6300 - the CPU is much faster, the motherboards tend to be cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for superclocked RAM. That also gives you a few extra euros to throw at the GPU, which in that price tier, means a good deal.If your deadset on getting the APU (maybe the price is better? I didn't look), and not use the dGPU at all, then the faster RAM doesn't matter anyway - that faster RAM is really only for feeding the iGPU, it won't make a lot of difference for the CPU.
Those two CPUs do not have integrated GPUs thus no dGPU and well:
But the Mobos for the FX-6300 are based on older tech by what I can find thus issues finding one that is both good, in this area, and affordable whereas the A10-7850K has a very good selection of Mobos including the one I picked which can run 1866Mhz RAM cards with no OC so you can burn into the money saved on the CPU itself on getting a good Mobo and it still does not solve the dGPU issue (you need to get two distinct GPUs) so price-wise the A10 actually comes out ahead.
I totally do not understand what you are saying here.
AM3+ motherboards on "older tech" - there still available with USB3.0, SATA3/6.0G, DDR3 -- what else do you really need in a motherboard?
You don't need 1866 with a AM3+ motherboard, because you won't be using integrated video. You can use cheaper DDR3-1300 or whatever.
Why do you need 2 discrete GPUs if your not using an APU? Crossfire (and SLI) suck (that is an objective opinion, but I'm not the only one that has it), and you don't want to use them unless you absolutely have to. THe point isn't to Crossfire with an FX CPU, but to get a single faster card in the first place. Planning on using an APU just so you can Crossfire it is a really, really bad idea.
Now, 64 euros in and of itself won't get you a good GPU - that's why the APU is nice on a really strict budget - you get R7-750 level graphics for around 25 euros less than buying a discrete card. But if you are just going to turn around and by a GPU anyway, then why not save those 64 euros, and put that ~plus~ the money you had slated for that GPU, into the GPU? If your spending 90 euors on a GPU with an APU, you could be spending 155 euros on a GPU with an FX CPU (rather than APU), and that gets you considerably better graphics without having to fool with faster DDR3 RAM or Crossfire. 150 euros is getting into the lower-end R9 series, and that's going to beat out APU/R7 250 graphics easily, even Crossfired. You win all the way around on the same budget.
(I'm not terribly familiar with pricing in euros, I just did some really basic looking around on the Warehouse2.de site and looked at some average prices)
And that difference between Mobos holds up in every brand (PCI is one version lower, RAM is half, if you want to OC you better pay a premium, etc,etc).
Originally posted by Dihoru And that difference between Mobos holds up in every brand (PCI is one version lower, RAM is half, if you want to OC you better pay a premium, etc,etc).
I still don't get what your saying.
You have 2 motherboard links, ok.
You have an ~older~ AM3+. There are more current ones with PCI 3, USB3, SATA3, etc, including some that are less expensive. You just picked the biggest "model number" and assumed it was the best. AM3+ has been around for a long time.
The RAM - it's a function of what RAM you buy, your just looking at the speed specification the motherboard can support without overclocks. Without using an integrated APU video, you don't need fast RAM, and none of them have RAM built in, so I don't know why you keep getting stuck on "RAM is half"
OC for a premium - that holds true with anything, but it depends greatly on how much you want to OC, and if you are planning to OC at all. Nearly every motherboard, even the budget ones we are considering, will support a mild OC. If you want a hard core Overclock - then you aren't looking at budget parts, APUs, stock heatsinks, or anything else, and that is an entirely different discussion. You don't want to bring Overclocking up as a major consideration on a budget model - you get what you can get, and that's it.
And that difference between Mobos holds up in every brand (PCI is one version lower, RAM is half, if you want to OC you better pay a premium, etc,etc).
I still don't get what your saying.
You have 2 motherboard links, ok.
You have an ~older~ AM3+. There are more current ones with PCI 3, USB3, SATA3, etc, including some that are less expensive. You just picked the biggest "model number" and assumed it was the best. AM3+ has been around for a long time.
The RAM - it's a function of what RAM you buy, your just looking at the speed specification the motherboard can support without overclocks. Without using an integrated APU video, you don't need fast RAM, and none of them have RAM built in, so I don't know why you keep getting stuck on "RAM is half"
OC for a premium - that holds true with anything, but it depends greatly on how much you want to OC, and if you are planning to OC at all. Nearly every motherboard, even the budget ones we are considering, will support a mild OC. If you want a hard core Overclock - then you aren't looking at budget parts, APUs, stock heatsinks, or anything else, and that is an entirely different discussion. You don't want to bring Overclocking up as a major consideration on a budget model - you get what you can get, and that's it.
So again - I don't get what your saying.
More current ones look pretty shit on the budget end (mules with rocket boosters on their backs) or are expensive enough to compensate and shoot past the money you saved with the cheaper CPU and make a more expensive GPU a burden on the budget. Also it would benefit your side of the debate if you do not accuse me of "picking the biggest model number" and actually supply a decently priced mobo (50-70 euros) of quality for the AM3+.
Pick either of the video cards, the AMD will probably be the faster of the two, either one will be faster than a Crossfire APU/R7 250 setup
Not my native language, and I didn't go shopping for the best prices, just using the Warehouse2.de site again. There were cheaper motherboards, but I made sure to get one with SATA3/USB3 for parity's sake (and there may have been less expensive or better options than what I picked).
Comes to 124.23 for CPU/MB, with a total of 266.41 for the nVidia 750Ti or 270.43 for the R9 270. That's without any shopping around for deals/sales/best site/etc. And without discounting for the fact that you don't need to pay extra for 1833-2400 speed RAM.
Originally posted by Dihoru Also it would benefit your side of the debate if you do not accuse me of "picking the biggest model number" and actually supply a decently priced mobo (50-70 euros) of quality for the AM3+.
Originally posted by Dihoru Also it would benefit your side of the debate if you do not accuse me of "picking the biggest model number" and actually supply a decently priced mobo (50-70 euros) of quality for the AM3+.
grndzro's though is good as far as specs go but sinks itself with over 2/4s of the budget in the 3 which leaves ram, power source and pc case and hdd in the air plus the dvdrw. Also considering the tech in question is 2 years old and AMD is already showing signs of wanting to iterate upon dedicated CPUs (they recently launched some GPU stripped CPU cores from APUs as standalones) it is a iffy proposition.
It's your money, you do what you want. I've talked about the RAM speed, it's obvious you don't understand, or care to learn about it.
Everything is constantly iterating. You can wait for "the next thing" for a long long time and never get there.
2/4's of a budget (or 1/2 as we like to say here in the States) for CPU, Motherboard, and GPU is... on this small of a budget pretty darn good. The rest of the computer (case, power supply, RAM, optical drive, a modest HDD or SSD) in any build would probably be around 250 euros, even if you have a much larger budget.
The only thing that really scales up massively in cost as you get a larger budget is the GPU in the first place, with the CPU/motherboard and storage scaling minorly very far behind that.
Your better off going with an FX CPU over an APU if your going to use a discrete GPU. Buying an APU and crossfiring it with a dGPU is a bad idea. When the crossfire does actually work it may be a little faster, when your playing games that dont use xfire at all or scale poorly ( which are numerous) then your performance will suffer.
If you buy a CPU and a dedicated GPU the RAM wont matter or make a difference graphics wise. You can get a decent AM3+ motherboard, stick 4 or 8 gigs of 1333 in there and never notice a difference.
The only reason to buy an APU for a gaming PC is on a severe budget where you do not plan on or cant afford a dGPU.
My advice is the same as his, buy an FX cpu, get a budget AM3+ motherboard and take the money you save and apply it to your dGPU. You will be happy you did, and have a better gaming PC for it.
Just my 2 cents, good luck with whatever you choose.
Even if you have BETTER specs than those found on the consoles, your performance can and possibly will be worse. Being able to specifically optimise your software for a very specific set of hardware always gives WAY better results.
For comparison Xbox360 came out in 2005. It was able to run all the latest games up until the release of its successor in September 2013. If you bought a PC ten times the power of the Xbox360 back then (which was not possible of course) you would still not be able to play the latest games in September 2013.
For your budget you will not be able to come up with a build that will be beat the consoles. Spec sheets mean nothing. I was still laughing my ass off when the iphone wiped the floor with phones which had 2ghz quad cpus with its puny dual core at 1.3ghz and tiny 1 RAM. It's not all spec sheets, software really matters too.
My point is just try to squeeze as much as you can from your budget. Although your budget is kinda on the very low side. £450-480 is very low even for PCs which are dirt cheap.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
grndzro's though is good as far as specs go but sinks itself with over 2/4s of the budget in the 3 which leaves ram, power source and pc case and hdd in the air plus the dvdrw. Also considering the tech in question is 2 years old and AMD is already showing signs of wanting to iterate upon dedicated CPUs (they recently launched some GPU stripped CPU cores from APUs as standalones) it is a iffy proposition.
I am only comparing Processor/Mobo/GPU because the other components are pretty static. Even the DDR3 2400 vs 1600 is only a 5 pound difference.
If you fill in the pieces with my previous build A/B/C comes to just over 500 pounds.
C: A10-7850K + Overclocking to 4.4 (Has better IPC than FX) + Newer instruction sets + AMD R7 250 in dual GPU mode.
Cheapest Intel quad core = 315 pounds and is no faster than A/B/C
Overclocked the 7850K with dual GFX matches the other 2 especially with the recent driver release. You also get the option of upgrading to Carrizo if it looks worth it. Just Ebay the 7850K+R7 250. cheap upgrade.
With the surge in OpenGL adoption and AMD releasing OGL 4.4 the FX6300 option might have the longest legs due to having 6 cores and OGL 4.4 being non reliant on IPC. But the 7850K has better IPC and instruction sets, and HSA, as well as lower power use when not gaming.
A lot of people are saying the A10-7850K is slower. Yes that was the case with initial drivers, not with the newer ones. Most reviews do not show the new drivers with fast Ram and overclocked. I posted a review that meets all these criteria earlier. The performance was fine.
Take a look at the new 14.2 drivers. Makes a huge difference with A10-7850K
Now I finally get where I was misreading what Ride was saying, dGPU when talking about AMD for me translates as dual GPU not discrete, derp... anyway besides the point (sorry Ride about that one).
Originally posted by jdnewell
I have to agree with Ridelynn.
Your better off going with an FX CPU over an APU if your going to use a discrete GPU. Buying an APU and crossfiring it with a dGPU is a bad idea. When the crossfire does actually work it may be a little faster, when your playing games that dont use xfire at all or scale poorly ( which are numerous) then your performance will suffer.
If you buy a CPU and a dedicated GPU the RAM wont matter or make a difference graphics wise. You can get a decent AM3+ motherboard, stick 4 or 8 gigs of 1333 in there and never notice a difference.
The only reason to buy an APU for a gaming PC is on a severe budget where you do not plan on or cant afford a dGPU.
My advice is the same as his, buy an FX cpu, get a budget AM3+ motherboard and take the money you save and apply it to your dGPU. You will be happy you did, and have a better gaming PC for it.
Just my 2 cents, good luck with whatever you choose.
6 gbs of 1333 Mhz RAM bottlenecks my laptop in some applications with my multitasking tendencies and the CPU is much weaker than the A10-7850K (let alone the FX series) thus 1600 Mhz is minimum for me especially considering that the Mobo is something I am not gonna cheap out on a AMD CPU rig as the sockets tend to be cross compatible so in a upgrade process I may keep the Mobo and thus the rams and hdd and just switch out the CPU and GPU.
Couple the older tech with the fact that the FX-6300 actually is 10% worse than the the A10-7850K in terms of single core efficiency tells me that I am better off either get the A10 ( I don't multitask that badly to require 6 cores and not allot of multicore apps in my lineup) and see if the FX series get newer CPUs while waiting at which point it would be derp easy.
Also another plus for the A10-7850K coupled with a R7 250 you get Mantle and while it is still getting up to snuff both the PS4 and Xbone use exclusively AMD parts and will get Mantle support so that means allot of games and game engines will also start supporting mantle. I know the R7 250 isn't a great GPU but I doubt a higher spec Mantle capable GPU isn't coming and considering this isn't a build that will go down yet (waiting to see what summer brings, likely gonna be mid to late winter before I start putting it together) I can afford to wait to see which side I go down (either FX with a higher end GPU or APU with a mantle capable GPU).
Dedicated Radeon 7950 comes very close to Intel's 4670K when OC. And even when not OC.
He did mention Microstutter though. For that reason I would not reccomend Dual graphics. I would go with the FX 6 core. Preferably overclocked.
Or the A10-7700K which is 30 pounds less. and go with a dedicated GPU and overclock on everything.
Someone mentioned waiting for the AMD A-8 7600K. It is in soft launch now so should be popping up shortly for less than 100 pounds. That with a dedicated GPU would be your best bet.
Comments
AMD A10-7850K Black Edition 3.7GHz (Socket FM2+) APU Kaveri Processor - Retail £139.98
MSI Radeon R7 250 OC 2GB GDDR3
Stock Code - MSI-2502OC £66.98
G.Skill TridentX 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 PC3-19200 2400MHz Dual Channel Kit £66.98
Coolermaster Hyper TX3 EVO CPU Cooler £18.98
Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Creative Labs A250 (2.1) PC Speakers £27.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £472.25
Overclock the CPU and with dual graphics it beats anything else you can find.
For performance be sure to look up overclocked A10-7850K with at least DDR3-2400
Not much fat to be trimmed off anywhere.
Sorry didn't include Windows. I'm 100% positive you have a copy lying around somewhere.
Interesting build but... where's the motherboard?
PC optimization improves over time too. Game engines get better at taking advantage of features available in systems. Programmers take advantage of those engines better, in return. Don't assume the PC is stagnant.
What? Real gamers don't need a motherboard....ok my bad.
All from Novatech
AMD A10-7850K Black Edition 3.7GHz (Socket FM2+) APU Kaveri Processor - Retail £139.98
MSI Radeon R7 250 OC 2GB GDDR3 £66.98
ASUS A88XM-PLUS AMD A88X (Socket FM2+) Motherboard £59.99
G.Skill Ares 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 PC3-14900 1866MHz £62.99
Coolermaster Hyper TX3 EVO CPU Cooler £18.98
Samsung 224DB 24x DVD Re-Writer - SATA - Black - OEM £12.98
Novatech Cougar ATX Case with PWM Fan £24.98
Corsair Builder Series Modular CX600M - 600 Watt 80 PLUS® Bronze Power Supply £58.98
Seagate Barracuda 1TB 64MB Cache Hard Drive SATA 6GB/s 8.5ms 7200rpm - OEM £42.98
Hercules XPS 2.1 20 ARC Speaker System £20.42
Novatech Slim Keyboard £8.99
TOTAL £518.25
Ok added Motherboard. Less expensive speakers and ram.
Try to OC the RAM as much as possible but 1866 should be quite good.
Went over but IMO this is the best bet. Switching CPU's would require a GPU of equivalent performance that costs 200 pounds.
You wont be able to find another CPU/GPU combo that would outperform this for less.
Mobo has a VRM heatsink. CPU should OC over 4.5ghz
Power draw should be around 250W overclocked so you probably could downgrade the power supply to 350-400W and be completely safe.
XD that's better... though considering this is a long term goal type project I can do one thing to trim down costs: Wait for the A8-7600, upgrade (in my opinion) from the MSI R7 250 to the Sapphire R7 250 (same specs almost) and personally for my own gaming needs 1600 Mhz RAM cards are ample (will try to squeeze in the 1866 ones though to avoid having to OC anything). Considering the A8-7600 is slated for a Q4 release (well Q3-Q4 but I am a pessimist) it should give me ample time to see how mantle's shaping up and also maybe get a lil lucky with price drops ( considering the 800 series from Nvidia is coming Radeon might move to secure the lower end better especially with the A8 coming out ).
Edit: With those two modifications your build is currently the high end option, the one I posted, and modified, in page 3, bottom, is gonna be the failsafe though likely to also shift that over to an A8-7600 and switch out the 260X for a 250 to take advantage of the dual gpu.
Eh the video cards are a toss up. Both have 2gb VRAM and imo both have comparable quality. Personally I prefer MSI though.
The ram should only be downgraded if going with a lesser APU. The A10-7850 really needs it, performance is directly related to bandwidth. And for 10$ jumping all the way to 2400 from 1600 is a no brainer.
IMO Dropping down to the 7600K/7700K for the processor would put the system in a lower non gaming class. Might as well get a cheaper motherboard and drop the CPU cooler and HQ thermal paste. And get a lower wattage PSU. It would also drop performance to easily less than the PS4.
Actually it wouldn't really do that as the 7600K-7700K are marginal downgrades in performance overall (few frames in low to medium settings on 720p, less that in 1080p) while being cheaper. As I said though it is a long term project, if the A10-7850 gets a price cut to reflect its status and compete with the haswell i3 that is currently cheaper and slightly better then it will become a primary option but as is I could just swap out for that i3 with a 260x and get better bang for my buck while also giving me the option, longer term, to swap the CPU to an i5 once the next gen drops and ivy/haswell go into bargain mode.
Also 1600->2400, depending on how much quality you want from your RAM cards and what brand, isn't 10$ (30-40 euros usually seems to be the variation in the midrange) and I am building it to last not to cook off cards and buy new ones.
I didn't look at prices but:
The entire reason of going with an APU is that you get a passable CPU with a decent enough GPU for a good price. That saves a bit of money over going the traditional route - the amount isn't huge, but on a very tight budget it can make all the difference.
If your buying an APU only to pair it with another GPU (even if your going to try to CFX the integrated GPU with a discrete GPU), your probably looking at it in the wrong way.
If your going to get a dGPU in the first place, go ahead and get the FX4300 or FX6300 - the CPU is much faster, the motherboards tend to be cheaper, and you don't need to pay extra for superclocked RAM. That also gives you a few extra euros to throw at the GPU, which in that price tier, means a good deal.
If your deadset on getting the APU (maybe the price is better? I didn't look), and not use the dGPU at all, then the faster RAM doesn't matter anyway - that faster RAM is really only for feeding the iGPU, it won't make a lot of difference for the CPU.
Those two CPUs do not have integrated GPUs thus no dGPU and well:
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/AMD-FX-6300-vs-AMD-A10-7850K
http://www.warehouse2.de/shop/details.php?art=112500&artname=AMD+++FX-6300+6-Core++++3.5GHz+AM3%2B+14MB+Cache++95W+retail
vs
http://www.warehouse2.de/shop/details.php?art=138801&artname=AMD+++A10+7850K+R7Series++3.7GHz+FM2%2B+4.0MB+Cache++95W+retail
But the Mobos for the FX-6300 are based on older tech by what I can find thus issues finding one that is both good, in this area, and affordable whereas the A10-7850K has a very good selection of Mobos including the one I picked which can run 1866Mhz RAM cards with no OC so you can burn into the money saved on the CPU itself on getting a good Mobo and it still does not solve the dGPU issue (you need to get two distinct GPUs) so price-wise the A10 actually comes out ahead.
I totally do not understand what you are saying here.
AM3+ motherboards on "older tech" - there still available with USB3.0, SATA3/6.0G, DDR3 -- what else do you really need in a motherboard?
You don't need 1866 with a AM3+ motherboard, because you won't be using integrated video. You can use cheaper DDR3-1300 or whatever.
Why do you need 2 discrete GPUs if your not using an APU? Crossfire (and SLI) suck (that is an objective opinion, but I'm not the only one that has it), and you don't want to use them unless you absolutely have to. THe point isn't to Crossfire with an FX CPU, but to get a single faster card in the first place. Planning on using an APU just so you can Crossfire it is a really, really bad idea.
Just using the same site as you quote the APU from:
http://www.warehouse2.de/shop/details.php?art=113720&artname=AMD+++FX-4300+4-Core++++3.8GHz+AM3%2B++8MB+Cache++95W+retail - 64 euros less expensive, not counting any difference in motherboard. That goes a long way
Now, 64 euros in and of itself won't get you a good GPU - that's why the APU is nice on a really strict budget - you get R7-750 level graphics for around 25 euros less than buying a discrete card. But if you are just going to turn around and by a GPU anyway, then why not save those 64 euros, and put that ~plus~ the money you had slated for that GPU, into the GPU? If your spending 90 euors on a GPU with an APU, you could be spending 155 euros on a GPU with an FX CPU (rather than APU), and that gets you considerably better graphics without having to fool with faster DDR3 RAM or Crossfire. 150 euros is getting into the lower-end R9 series, and that's going to beat out APU/R7 250 graphics easily, even Crossfired. You win all the way around on the same budget.
(I'm not terribly familiar with pricing in euros, I just did some really basic looking around on the Warehouse2.de site and looked at some average prices)
Go ahead and make a build then if you guys think you will get more performance from anything else.
You have 267 pounds for a CPU/GPU/Motherboard
Benchmarks http://blackholetec.com/drupal7/article/amd-a10-7850k-kaveri-review-page-14
Pick either of the video cards, the AMD will probably be the faster of the two, either one will be faster than a Crossfire APU/R7 250 setup
Not my native language, and I didn't go shopping for the best prices, just using the Warehouse2.de site again. There were cheaper motherboards, but I made sure to get one with SATA3/USB3 for parity's sake (and there may have been less expensive or better options than what I picked).
113720 AMD FX-4300 4-Core 3.8GHz AM3+ 8MB Cache 95W retail
80.97 Löschen 80.97
129122 MB ASRock 980DE3/U3S3 AM3+ ATX DDR3 ret
43.26 Löschen 43.26
139374 ASUS GTX750TI-OC-2GD5
142.18 Löschen 142.18
136068 Club3D R9 270 royalQueen 2GB DVI/HDMI/DP DDR5 ret
146.20 Löschen 146.20
Comes to 124.23 for CPU/MB, with a total of 266.41 for the nVidia 750Ti or 270.43 for the R9 270. That's without any shopping around for deals/sales/best site/etc. And without discounting for the fact that you don't need to pay extra for 1833-2400 speed RAM.
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/AMD-FX-6300-vs-AMD-A10-7850K
http://versus.com/en/amd-a10-7850k-vs-amd-fx-4300
http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/mantle#overview
http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/FM2A88X%20Extreme4+/?cat=Specifications
vs
http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/990FX%20Extreme3/?cat=Specifications (do not try the Extreme 9 that thing is 170 euros)
And that difference between Mobos holds up in every brand (PCI is one version lower, RAM is half, if you want to OC you better pay a premium, etc,etc).
I still don't get what your saying.
You have 2 motherboard links, ok.
You have an ~older~ AM3+. There are more current ones with PCI 3, USB3, SATA3, etc, including some that are less expensive. You just picked the biggest "model number" and assumed it was the best. AM3+ has been around for a long time.
The RAM - it's a function of what RAM you buy, your just looking at the speed specification the motherboard can support without overclocks. Without using an integrated APU video, you don't need fast RAM, and none of them have RAM built in, so I don't know why you keep getting stuck on "RAM is half"
OC for a premium - that holds true with anything, but it depends greatly on how much you want to OC, and if you are planning to OC at all. Nearly every motherboard, even the budget ones we are considering, will support a mild OC. If you want a hard core Overclock - then you aren't looking at budget parts, APUs, stock heatsinks, or anything else, and that is an entirely different discussion. You don't want to bring Overclocking up as a major consideration on a budget model - you get what you can get, and that's it.
So again - I don't get what your saying.
More current ones look pretty shit on the budget end (mules with rocket boosters on their backs) or are expensive enough to compensate and shoot past the money you saved with the cheaper CPU and make a more expensive GPU a burden on the budget. Also it would benefit your side of the debate if you do not accuse me of "picking the biggest model number" and actually supply a decently priced mobo (50-70 euros) of quality for the AM3+.
Ok I'll jump in that Direction
GIGABYTE GA-970A-DS3P AMD 970 (Socket AM3+) Motherboard £52.99
AMD Piledriver FX-6 Six Core 6300 Black Edition 3.50Ghz (Socket AM3+) Processor £82.99
MSI Radeon R9 270 TWIN FROZR GAMING OC 2GB GDDR5 £139.99
276 pounds, Motherboard has a VRM sink and can OC. Proc has 2 more core, should oc to 4.2-4.4
Pretty sure I did just that:
And grndzro's latest build is nice too.
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?cat=Specifications&Model=980DE3/U3S3 - having to OC to use 1600 Mhz RAM is bad thus you didn't do it.
grndzro's though is good as far as specs go but sinks itself with over 2/4s of the budget in the 3 which leaves ram, power source and pc case and hdd in the air plus the dvdrw. Also considering the tech in question is 2 years old and AMD is already showing signs of wanting to iterate upon dedicated CPUs (they recently launched some GPU stripped CPU cores from APUs as standalones) it is a iffy proposition.
It's your money, you do what you want. I've talked about the RAM speed, it's obvious you don't understand, or care to learn about it.
Everything is constantly iterating. You can wait for "the next thing" for a long long time and never get there.
2/4's of a budget (or 1/2 as we like to say here in the States) for CPU, Motherboard, and GPU is... on this small of a budget pretty darn good. The rest of the computer (case, power supply, RAM, optical drive, a modest HDD or SSD) in any build would probably be around 250 euros, even if you have a much larger budget.
The only thing that really scales up massively in cost as you get a larger budget is the GPU in the first place, with the CPU/motherboard and storage scaling minorly very far behind that.
I have to agree with Ridelynn.
Your better off going with an FX CPU over an APU if your going to use a discrete GPU. Buying an APU and crossfiring it with a dGPU is a bad idea. When the crossfire does actually work it may be a little faster, when your playing games that dont use xfire at all or scale poorly ( which are numerous) then your performance will suffer.
If you buy a CPU and a dedicated GPU the RAM wont matter or make a difference graphics wise. You can get a decent AM3+ motherboard, stick 4 or 8 gigs of 1333 in there and never notice a difference.
The only reason to buy an APU for a gaming PC is on a severe budget where you do not plan on or cant afford a dGPU.
My advice is the same as his, buy an FX cpu, get a budget AM3+ motherboard and take the money you save and apply it to your dGPU. You will be happy you did, and have a better gaming PC for it.
Just my 2 cents, good luck with whatever you choose.
Even if you have BETTER specs than those found on the consoles, your performance can and possibly will be worse. Being able to specifically optimise your software for a very specific set of hardware always gives WAY better results.
For comparison Xbox360 came out in 2005. It was able to run all the latest games up until the release of its successor in September 2013. If you bought a PC ten times the power of the Xbox360 back then (which was not possible of course) you would still not be able to play the latest games in September 2013.
For your budget you will not be able to come up with a build that will be beat the consoles. Spec sheets mean nothing. I was still laughing my ass off when the iphone wiped the floor with phones which had 2ghz quad cpus with its puny dual core at 1.3ghz and tiny 1 RAM. It's not all spec sheets, software really matters too.
My point is just try to squeeze as much as you can from your budget. Although your budget is kinda on the very low side. £450-480 is very low even for PCs which are dirt cheap.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I am only comparing Processor/Mobo/GPU because the other components are pretty static. Even the DDR3 2400 vs 1600 is only a 5 pound difference.
If you fill in the pieces with my previous build A/B/C comes to just over 500 pounds.
So you go with
A: AMD FX4300 + Overclocking to 4.6 + Older Piledriver cores + MSI R9 270 2GB
B: AMD FX6300 + Overclocking to 4.2(Mabye 4.4) + Older Piledriver cores + MSI R9 270 2GB
C: A10-7850K + Overclocking to 4.4 (Has better IPC than FX) + Newer instruction sets + AMD R7 250 in dual GPU mode.
Overclocked the 7850K with dual GFX matches the other 2 especially with the recent driver release. You also get the option of upgrading to Carrizo if it looks worth it. Just Ebay the 7850K+R7 250. cheap upgrade.
With the surge in OpenGL adoption and AMD releasing OGL 4.4 the FX6300 option might have the longest legs due to having 6 cores and OGL 4.4 being non reliant on IPC. But the 7850K has better IPC and instruction sets, and HSA, as well as lower power use when not gaming.
A lot of people are saying the A10-7850K is slower. Yes that was the case with initial drivers, not with the newer ones. Most reviews do not show the new drivers with fast Ram and overclocked. I posted a review that meets all these criteria earlier. The performance was fine.
Take a look at the new 14.2 drivers. Makes a huge difference with A10-7850K
http://benchmarkreviews.com/13238/amd-a10-7850k-performance-optimized-catalyst-14-2-driver/
6 gbs of 1333 Mhz RAM bottlenecks my laptop in some applications with my multitasking tendencies and the CPU is much weaker than the A10-7850K (let alone the FX series) thus 1600 Mhz is minimum for me especially considering that the Mobo is something I am not gonna cheap out on a AMD CPU rig as the sockets tend to be cross compatible so in a upgrade process I may keep the Mobo and thus the rams and hdd and just switch out the CPU and GPU.
Couple the older tech with the fact that the FX-6300 actually is 10% worse than the the A10-7850K in terms of single core efficiency tells me that I am better off either get the A10 ( I don't multitask that badly to require 6 cores and not allot of multicore apps in my lineup) and see if the FX series get newer CPUs while waiting at which point it would be derp easy.
Also another plus for the A10-7850K coupled with a R7 250 you get Mantle and while it is still getting up to snuff both the PS4 and Xbone use exclusively AMD parts and will get Mantle support so that means allot of games and game engines will also start supporting mantle. I know the R7 250 isn't a great GPU but I doubt a higher spec Mantle capable GPU isn't coming and considering this isn't a build that will go down yet (waiting to see what summer brings, likely gonna be mid to late winter before I start putting it together) I can afford to wait to see which side I go down (either FX with a higher end GPU or APU with a mantle capable GPU).
Very comprehensive A10-7850K review with the Catalyst 12.3 drivers
http://blackholetec.com/drupal7/article/amd-a10-7850k-kaveri-review-page-1
It does very well. Playable 1080p with dual GFX
Dedicated Radeon 7950 comes very close to Intel's 4670K when OC. And even when not OC.
He did mention Microstutter though. For that reason I would not reccomend Dual graphics. I would go with the FX 6 core. Preferably overclocked.
Or the A10-7700K which is 30 pounds less. and go with a dedicated GPU and overclock on everything.
Someone mentioned waiting for the AMD A-8 7600K. It is in soft launch now so should be popping up shortly for less than 100 pounds. That with a dedicated GPU would be your best bet.