Originally posted by grndzro Just wait, Kingdom Come Deliverance will change everything.
I'm not convinced a game, any game can change this antisocial behavior. A game might force people to group up but that doesn't mean they will talk to each other. Dungeon Finders I think are a prime example of this in action.
My opinion is the MMO market has moved on from primary group social experiences to primary solo experiences with a social element and I don't think there is any going back. This is why all these so called "old school" MMO's I think are doomed from the start. They are trying to market a game to a audience that has been diluted over time so much to the point where short of a interview of players before letting them in your game I'm not sure how anyone could recreate that environment.
The F2P mentality sure doesn't help either.
You obviously have never played FFXI. Or at least didn't get into a good Linkshell that grouped up together and helped out with all the questlines.
The antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the instant gratification single player focus that is common in most MMORPG's today.
If you have a game with fun and interesting gameplay that puts an emphasis on teamwork, and cooperation, and individual skill that has mechanics in place to identify crap players you would quickly build up a strong community.
Not saying that is easy. But KCD has a good chance of making it happen.
I'm playing Elders Scrolls Online right now and I'm enjoying it but its not like the old school games. A lot of dynamics are not set up to be social, but I'm finding little pockets of friends. When I'm sick of this game I'll go back to Vanilla WoW as I always do. I'll pick up where I left off with my 42 Warlock and I'll re make a boat load of friends in no time because the social dynamics are their.
It's relieving to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm actually surprised how many of you hit the nail on the head with your comments. I definitely agree that dungeon finders and cross realm features were a huge axe in the back to MMORPG gaming. I haven't played ESO yet but I've heard nothing but bad reviews on it. Being a huge Morrowind fan, I was disappointed to say the least.
I don't play games to social, and i welcome LFD, LFR, and everything that makes MMOs better games for me.
Like in all markets, there are always those who are catered to, and those who are not. If you taste is out of touch with the core audience, well, you can't blame the devs for not catering to you. They have no obligation to.
You obviously have never played FFXI. Or at least didn't get into a good Linkshell that grouped up together and helped out with all the questlines.
The antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the instant gratification single player focus that is common in most MMORPG's today.
If you have a game with fun and interesting gameplay that puts an emphasis on teamwork, and cooperation, and individual skill that has mechanics in place to identify crap players you would quickly build up a strong community.
Not saying that is easy. But KCD has a good chance of making it happen.
No, the antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the modern first world culture, it exists outside of MMOs as much as it does inside of them. The only way to change the behavior is to change the culture and it's not going the right direction. All the gameplay in the world isn't going to make people talk to each other. That kind of thing is probably gone forever no matter what anyone does.
No, the antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the modern first world culture, it exists outside of MMOs as much as it does inside of them. The only way to change the behavior is to change the culture and it's not going the right direction. All the gameplay in the world isn't going to make people talk to each other. That kind of thing is probably gone forever no matter what anyone does.
Exactly. I don't play games to talk to others. So either i will just ignore them in the game, or play one that does not require me to do that.
Look at Hearthstone, you cannot even talk to your opponent, and i don't think that is done by accident.
The resulting change is a result of the industry trying to shoehorn the genre into a mold that would be a better fit for a mass of people who would otherwise have no interest in playing a pre-2k4 MMORPG.
Originally posted by Spectakle But Flizzer, how can you stay interested with no one to talk to? No one to actually make it feel like you're playing an online game? Show me your secrets wizard!
I make my own connections in game
bingo we have a winner.
Heck, I'm a pretty die hard soloer and I still find people to group with when needed and people to talk with if I desire.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Spectakle But Flizzer, how can you stay interested with no one to talk to? No one to actually make it feel like you're playing an online game? Show me your secrets wizard!
I make my own connections in game
bingo we have a winner.
Heck, I'm a pretty die hard soloer and I still find people to group with when needed and people to talk with if I desire.
My social interactions in any online game I have ever played are always on me. When exert some effort, I tend to get better results.
GW2 was a game that has been heavily criticized for promoting non-social interactions, yet to this day, it remains one of my most social games.
Currently I am playing SWTOR in a guild that raids regularly. So, in yet another game that seems to be known for its single player atmosphere, I am finding myself in the midst of a social hub that is exceptionally active.
There are many things I will criticize MMORPGs for. But for socialization, That's on the player not the game.
OP you should try Darkfall UW. Great game world in which you can solo but it is highly recommended that you join a clan as most of the fun is had in groups. I don't even like PvP that much and I've had a blast, been playing since last July with no breaks.
I have a lot of hope for The Repopulation. Sci fi and sandbox with a bit more PvE focus than Darkfall...can't wait.
Now a year or two ago I would have thought things were hopeless as well. But with some smaller studios taking a few risks and thinking about giving players some freedom back, there is hope.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer The resulting change is a result of the industry trying to shoehorn the genre into a mold that would be a better fit for a mass of people who would otherwise have no interest in playing a pre-2k4 MMORPG.
Or you can say they are trying to expand their audience, and make their products more fun for more people.
I kinda think that the games pre-Wow had more social players. It is not really that strange, MMOs used to be played by a rather small group of people with special interests but they are pretty huge so players have less in common and chat less with random people.
The fix is of course to be nice and talk with players yourself, that behavior spread (just like being a jerk does). A nice guild with people who share your interests helps as well.
Another reason is that you needed others more back in the old days, today most players solo all the way up to the endgame, and other players are potential kill-stealers in most games. I personally believe that the classic need/greed mechanics have created more than a few loners and sociopaths in MMOs.
People need to stop acting like being able to solo in an MMO is a new thing. I primarily solo'd and did VERY well and ended up joining the community MORE than I do now in the following games:
UO, WoW, EQ2, DAOC, SWG and a few others.
The difference now is that MMO's don't require ANY interaction. Where as back then I wanted to interact for things that were actually fun. Such as PvP, interesting crafting, travelling, trading. Now everything is automated. Just click this to join a group of people you dont know.
Hell, in ESO I have been primarily solo yet I am a bigger part of the community than I was in most games. Why? Because no Auction House, people aren't liking/using the LFG/Dungeon finder and meeting up and trading is fun (deconstructing for instance).
The content hasn't changed so much as we've added a ton of automation. I've got more people on my friends list in ESO in 3 weeks than I do in ANY other modern MMO I've played. That includes games like GW2, TSW, SWTOR, DCUO and others as well.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer The resulting change is a result of the industry trying to shoehorn the genre into a mold that would be a better fit for a mass of people who would otherwise have no interest in playing a pre-2k4 MMORPG.
Or you can say they are trying to expand their audience, and make their products more fun for more people.
Originally posted by grndzro Just wait, Kingdom Come Deliverance will change everything.
I'm not convinced a game, any game can change this antisocial behavior. A game might force people to group up but that doesn't mean they will talk to each other. Dungeon Finders I think are a prime example of this in action.
My opinion is the MMO market has moved on from primary group social experiences to primary solo experiences with a social element and I don't think there is any going back. This is why all these so called "old school" MMO's I think are doomed from the start. They are trying to market a game to a audience that has been diluted over time so much to the point where short of a interview of players before letting them in your game I'm not sure how anyone could recreate that environment.
The F2P mentality sure doesn't help either.
You obviously have never played FFXI. Or at least didn't get into a good Linkshell that grouped up together and helped out with all the questlines.
The antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the instant gratification single player focus that is common in most MMORPG's today.
If you have a game with fun and interesting gameplay that puts an emphasis on teamwork, and cooperation, and individual skill that has mechanics in place to identify crap players you would quickly build up a strong community.
Not saying that is easy. But KCD has a good chance of making it happen.
FFXI, like many other vintage mmo's, eventually ends up stale due to gamer attrition. I think the genre is suffering from a generational shift. Can you remember the "anal, Chuck Norris, your momma" jokes back in 2000-2005 MMO era? I don't either. I think the newer gaming generation play for totally different reasons than us old timers do...
I agree with the OP. I find that the older games are played by older gamers. All the new games post wow are just filled with mostly inmature kids that grew up on consoles. Mmo's have not been all that great lately. And its mostly the fault of this generation of players who are only thinking about themselves. I miss the days of Anarchy Online. When only adult computer geeks played mmo's. I miss the cities on the weekends in Anarchy Online. They would be filled with players. The bars the nightclubs were always filled with players hanging out being social. Guilds would have parties for someones birthday and invite the whole server just to hang out. You would never see that with mmo's today.
. I think the genre is suffering from a generational shift. Can you remember the "anal, Chuck Norris, your momma" jokes back in 2000-2005 MMO era? I don't either. I think the newer gaming generation play for totally different reasons than us old timers do...
I remember the horrible camping, camp drama, kill stealing drama and loot drama. And "old timers" don't all have the same preferences or play with the same reasons.
I am an old timer, and I don't play games for the social like some here do.
. I think the genre is suffering from a generational shift. Can you remember the "anal, Chuck Norris, your momma" jokes back in 2000-2005 MMO era? I don't either. I think the newer gaming generation play for totally different reasons than us old timers do...
I remember the horrible camping, camp drama, kill stealing drama and loot drama. And "old timers" don't all have the same preferences or play with the same reasons.
I am an old timer, and I don't play games for the social like some here do.
I don't either because, unlike some people around here, I actually have lots of friends in real life. I don't have to rely on a game to chat with people, I can call them on the phone, have them come over and we can talk face to face. [mod edit]
. I think the genre is suffering from a generational shift. Can you remember the "anal, Chuck Norris, your momma" jokes back in 2000-2005 MMO era? I don't either. I think the newer gaming generation play for totally different reasons than us old timers do...
I remember the horrible camping, camp drama, kill stealing drama and loot drama. And "old timers" don't all have the same preferences or play with the same reasons.
I am an old timer, and I don't play games for the social like some here do.
I don't either because, unlike some people around here, I actually have lots of friends in real life. I don't have to rely on a game to chat with people, I can call them on the phone, have them come over and we can talk face to face. [mod edit]
Yeh .. in fact, with a family, i don't really have much time for friends either, and certainly not for strangers in video games.
I believe what the OP and others who agree with him are getting at is the feeling of comradery. It's a powerful feeling. I remember playing FF11 when I was 12 and even I could understand it. When you interacted with other player you had that feeling everyone was a team, even if they were someone you never met.
In time that sort of feeling was just left with guilds and the games became cold feeling as people no longer had to work together as much. In your guild you could feel the comradery the sense of belonging to a group. Though now with games needing less and less of guilds they are just a secondary friendslist of people who will raid a dungeon together occasionally.
I suppose we long for the all encompassing sense of belonging the older game communities had much like the early Cold War era US citizen missed that "we all belong together as brothers because we are part of the same nation".
I totally agree with the OP. However, I think the OP is highlighting a symptom, but not the disease.
Pre-2008 in WoW, there were DPS classes, tanking classes, healing classes, and the game was more of a challenge. Therefore, it was perfered to have social contacts in order to do really well - so socialising was considered normal, but not compulsory by any means. These days, everyone can do similar things - especially DPS, and crowd control can be a substitute for tanking. The game is also easier, so nobody really feels a need to socialise at all.
Most other developers have followed Blizzard's new model, and the rest is history.
Somebody mentioned Darkfall Unholy Wars as being a social game. I don't like this game because you are bullied by gankers into socialising, rather than it being a pleasant option.
Comments
You obviously have never played FFXI. Or at least didn't get into a good Linkshell that grouped up together and helped out with all the questlines.
The antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the instant gratification single player focus that is common in most MMORPG's today.
If you have a game with fun and interesting gameplay that puts an emphasis on teamwork, and cooperation, and individual skill that has mechanics in place to identify crap players you would quickly build up a strong community.
Not saying that is easy. But KCD has a good chance of making it happen.
one man's poison is another man's health potion.
I don't play games to social, and i welcome LFD, LFR, and everything that makes MMOs better games for me.
Like in all markets, there are always those who are catered to, and those who are not. If you taste is out of touch with the core audience, well, you can't blame the devs for not catering to you. They have no obligation to.
No, the antisocial behavior is a byproduct of the modern first world culture, it exists outside of MMOs as much as it does inside of them. The only way to change the behavior is to change the culture and it's not going the right direction. All the gameplay in the world isn't going to make people talk to each other. That kind of thing is probably gone forever no matter what anyone does.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Exactly. I don't play games to talk to others. So either i will just ignore them in the game, or play one that does not require me to do that.
Look at Hearthstone, you cannot even talk to your opponent, and i don't think that is done by accident.
bingo we have a winner.
Heck, I'm a pretty die hard soloer and I still find people to group with when needed and people to talk with if I desire.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My social interactions in any online game I have ever played are always on me. When exert some effort, I tend to get better results.
GW2 was a game that has been heavily criticized for promoting non-social interactions, yet to this day, it remains one of my most social games.
Currently I am playing SWTOR in a guild that raids regularly. So, in yet another game that seems to be known for its single player atmosphere, I am finding myself in the midst of a social hub that is exceptionally active.
There are many things I will criticize MMORPGs for. But for socialization, That's on the player not the game.
OP you should try Darkfall UW. Great game world in which you can solo but it is highly recommended that you join a clan as most of the fun is had in groups. I don't even like PvP that much and I've had a blast, been playing since last July with no breaks.
I have a lot of hope for The Repopulation. Sci fi and sandbox with a bit more PvE focus than Darkfall...can't wait.
Now a year or two ago I would have thought things were hopeless as well. But with some smaller studios taking a few risks and thinking about giving players some freedom back, there is hope.
Or you can say they are trying to expand their audience, and make their products more fun for more people.
I kinda think that the games pre-Wow had more social players. It is not really that strange, MMOs used to be played by a rather small group of people with special interests but they are pretty huge so players have less in common and chat less with random people.
The fix is of course to be nice and talk with players yourself, that behavior spread (just like being a jerk does). A nice guild with people who share your interests helps as well.
Another reason is that you needed others more back in the old days, today most players solo all the way up to the endgame, and other players are potential kill-stealers in most games. I personally believe that the classic need/greed mechanics have created more than a few loners and sociopaths in MMOs.
People need to stop acting like being able to solo in an MMO is a new thing. I primarily solo'd and did VERY well and ended up joining the community MORE than I do now in the following games:
UO, WoW, EQ2, DAOC, SWG and a few others.
The difference now is that MMO's don't require ANY interaction. Where as back then I wanted to interact for things that were actually fun. Such as PvP, interesting crafting, travelling, trading. Now everything is automated. Just click this to join a group of people you dont know.
Hell, in ESO I have been primarily solo yet I am a bigger part of the community than I was in most games. Why? Because no Auction House, people aren't liking/using the LFG/Dungeon finder and meeting up and trading is fun (deconstructing for instance).
The content hasn't changed so much as we've added a ton of automation. I've got more people on my friends list in ESO in 3 weeks than I do in ANY other modern MMO I've played. That includes games like GW2, TSW, SWTOR, DCUO and others as well.
Yea, they certainly are trying.
I second this. Landroval server is teeming with chatty players and there are player generate events going on quite often.
FFXI, like many other vintage mmo's, eventually ends up stale due to gamer attrition. I think the genre is suffering from a generational shift. Can you remember the "anal, Chuck Norris, your momma" jokes back in 2000-2005 MMO era? I don't either. I think the newer gaming generation play for totally different reasons than us old timers do...
/2cents
I remember the horrible camping, camp drama, kill stealing drama and loot drama. And "old timers" don't all have the same preferences or play with the same reasons.
I am an old timer, and I don't play games for the social like some here do.
I don't either because, unlike some people around here, I actually have lots of friends in real life. I don't have to rely on a game to chat with people, I can call them on the phone, have them come over and we can talk face to face. [mod edit]
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeh .. in fact, with a family, i don't really have much time for friends either, and certainly not for strangers in video games.
I believe what the OP and others who agree with him are getting at is the feeling of comradery. It's a powerful feeling. I remember playing FF11 when I was 12 and even I could understand it. When you interacted with other player you had that feeling everyone was a team, even if they were someone you never met.
In time that sort of feeling was just left with guilds and the games became cold feeling as people no longer had to work together as much. In your guild you could feel the comradery the sense of belonging to a group. Though now with games needing less and less of guilds they are just a secondary friendslist of people who will raid a dungeon together occasionally.
I suppose we long for the all encompassing sense of belonging the older game communities had much like the early Cold War era US citizen missed that "we all belong together as brothers because we are part of the same nation".
I totally agree with the OP. However, I think the OP is highlighting a symptom, but not the disease.
Pre-2008 in WoW, there were DPS classes, tanking classes, healing classes, and the game was more of a challenge. Therefore, it was perfered to have social contacts in order to do really well - so socialising was considered normal, but not compulsory by any means. These days, everyone can do similar things - especially DPS, and crowd control can be a substitute for tanking. The game is also easier, so nobody really feels a need to socialise at all.
Most other developers have followed Blizzard's new model, and the rest is history.
Somebody mentioned Darkfall Unholy Wars as being a social game. I don't like this game because you are bullied by gankers into socialising, rather than it being a pleasant option.