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Thinking of Playing EvE? Perhaps reconsider.

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  • MauriceMacouilleMauriceMacouille Member CommonPosts: 9
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    If I understand you correctly, you are actually attacking me for standing up for due process and fair application of the rules, rather than advocating that players being banned because there is some forum noise.

    And then ignoring the inconvenient fact that I also publically stated that after CCP consulted with the CSM over the matter, all my concerns had been fully addressed and I completely supported their action against erotica1

    Once again, I am pleased to consider myself a part of the community you're not in: My community plays by the rules and expels those who break them. Yours is a hysterical mob who believe that insults are accusations and hurt feelings are proof.

     

    No, I am attacking you for passively accepting grief- and Schadenfreude-based metagaming, and actively supporting people who indulge in it. Hence your pleading for Erotica1. If he had got off scott-free, you would have paraded like the sententious person you are. He got a slap on the wrist, and to whitewash yourself you pretend agreeing fully with the reprimand,

    You (as well as CCP) knew for months about Erotica1 exploitation of gullible players. For years, you´ve defended the rights of online assholes to be online assholes in a goddamn videogame. You´ve actually built your support base on this: being a dude who, while he does not participate in the most "emerging contents" (i.e. so lulzy and so randum ways to make people mad in a videogame, and troll them until they meltdown), fully agree that such gameplay is valid and acceptable.

    Your community is a cesspit of bitter, angry 220lbs manchildren whose only way to feel emotions is to drive random players nuts through the intricacies of a byzantine MMO.

     

    Originally posted by summitus

    OP , I found your post to be a very interesting read indeed ..... however , I find it a strange that you also state that you are an Eve vet and have played it for 10 years.. so could you explain why all of a sudden you have so much hate and bitterness toward a game that you have been playing so very very long ?

    And surely these things that you describe have been going on a long time yes ?

    And lastly if the game really is a bad as you have described, then why are there still nearly a million people playing it ?

     

     


    EvE wasn´t always that way. Griefers started breeding wildly around 2008.

    There are about 100-150k concurrent players. The alt bullshit explains why the subscription count is much higher

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

     

    War deccing a corporation and asking them for isk or they get killed is vastly different to pretending to be friends with a guy you know is recovering from cancer, pretending to be his friends and then kill him causing him to lose everything he has.  The first is ok, the second is despicable.

    Edit: I should say it should not be part of EvE but it is because CCP allows it to be part of EvE.  That's a mistake and one I think will eventually backfire on CCP when someone goes too far.

    It's despicable because you say it is? Because for a lot of people what you did is also considered despicable (i.e the entire hisec community). In-game actions are allowed. Profanity, doxxing and out-of game harassment is not. That I know, all of these things are already bannable offenses in the game. Erotica was banned. People get banned on a daily basis for trashtalking and being cunts in general. Exactly what's wrong with the rules again? 

    Their 'mistake' is holding on quite well for almost 11 years now. If anything goes 'too far' it has nothing to do with the game itself, but the people who play it. A game does not become 'terrible' when something tragic happens outside its doors by the players. You have a hard time separating one thing from the other. Other games have suffered casualities because some people are terrible human beings. It has nothing to do with the game at this point. 

     

     

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Member UncommonPosts: 1,671

    I love how the actual victim of Erotica's scam doesn't give 2 flying fucks but for some reason everyone and their mom wants to white knight him.  He's gone on to say that everyone's white knighting lost him his spot in his corp and had other negative consequences.  So, GOOD JOB COMMUNITY YOU FUCKED OVER A GUY FOR A SECOND TIME!

    Erotica1 only happened because Riptard wanted some attention and to force CCP into making a decision they had already declined to make.  He acted like a petulant child and yet the community rises up around a clearly biased and non-factual presentation of the events specifically written in a manner to ellicit your feelings and encourage you to side with the author.  The dude literally compares VOIP chat with torture.......... Really? GTFO.  Riptard played every person that aligned against Erotica.

    Steam: Neph

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
    Originally posted by Zarbyte
    Eve is a sandbox game, dominated almost entirely by its players. This is the way of this genre of MMO.

    yes ,it is players driven game ... Eve is NO LIMITATION game if cant deal with it  just go play something else ... 

    I am not understanding why OP crying around ? it is just game ,but  very good game !  He should separate RL from games.

    None is forced to play some game.

     

     

     

    EvE is not a "no limitations" game.  CCP sets clear limits in its EULA.  Read it and you'll see that its prohibited to target one player and harass them.  I'm not talking about chasing someone and killing them, popping a player at a gate, declaring war on a players corporation or scamming a player of their isk.  I'm talking about creating 3 alts with the express purpose of following that player around for months on end harassing and abusing them.  That's a clearly defined breach of conduct.

    You can have a personal opinion about whether it should be allowed or not.  That opinion does not change the terms of EULA.  

    Certain people in this thread are claiming that what I have said in my OP is false, or lies, or whatever.  However the facts are:

    A player, who is a member of the EvE Online community displayed private correspondence of a sensitive nature in a public forum in front of developerss of EvE Online, attempted to incite other players into mocking and harassing a reportedly suicidal player.  Was not severely punished by CCP for that.   http://kotaku.com/5896611/suicidal-player-laughed-at-then-trolled-at-eve-online-gathering

    A player who had spent the last 2 years fighting cancer, is conned into joining an alliance and moving all his stuff out by his pretend friends only to be ganked.  Nothing was done to those players, in fact that belittled and harassed and even suggested to the guy that "they did him a favor" and that "he shouldn't be playing EvE if he has cancer". Link

    Devs lured players out to Goonswarm / CFC space to feed newbie and carebear kills to Razor - Link

    Devs drop hundreds of billions of isk, the equivalent of thousands of RL dollars in plex to PL in their home system of Ammamake (check the killboard links in the forum post), an alliance headed by a former EvE developer - Link

    Now you can come here and lie and say this stuff is not happening but it is happening.  I have proof and you have pretty much denials in the face of the facts.  

    Your first link has already been discussed and what consequences occurred and I doubt the suicidal player cared that much after the apology and compensation was issued by the big bad Mittani (if memory serves he also paid the player some isk to compensate him for whatever damages in-game his, the Mittani's, stupidity had caused) . Funny how Mittens, the biggest shit eater in EVE, can admit fault but you cannot (hint: people on the EVE forums nailed you to the cross for complaining at being stalked when you yourself have done the same thing exploiting cloaking mechanics to pretty much blockade mining and PVE in 0.0 systems and I've seen you can be quite abusive when you cannot get your way so I can only imagine what type of sadist you were in your element).

    Your second link can be summed up as: Shit happens regardless who you are in EVE be it a roided up biker with issues being called certain names or a cancer survivor. The latter at least didn't seem to care as much.

    Third link is what happens when you do not bring your own FCs... christ do I really need to point out what happened to Polaris fleets the first few times (hint: they got cornered in 0.0 and couldn't move on but couldn't die either due to their dev mods)? Also props for using the term "carebear", it shows you actually care and aren't referring to anyone living in high-sec as someone inferior to low sec and null sec dwellers...oh wait. PS: The GM FC lost connection during the fleet op not on jump in by what I know, gg on the source though.

    And your forth link pretty much proves you haven't played EVE for nearly as long as you claim because Amamake is a low sec system in close proximity to high-sec which is a famous pvp killing ground (similar to Egg-hell) where PL make their home but which could be pretty easily inundated with people from any group (be it alliances from null sec, low sec or even high-secers) as bubbles do not work in low sec so gate camps are much, much less deadly for an organized group and it being in the Heimatar region it is much more better placed to get ships from Jita to there and if my history is correct back then it was also one of the systems with such traits farther, through null sec, for CFC.

     

    As for the people who are leaving with you... 30+ subs or however much you said... I would imagine more are gonna come in knowing that so many cloaky afk gankers have left the game (and I am giving those people the benefit of reading both threads and checking out your history, if they are just the type to feel moral outrage at someone getting their due... they really weren't much better to begin with).

     

    Just a bunch of excuses for aweful, abusive, dishonest conduct.

    While I have blockaded corporations and alliances in EVE using cloaky mechanics that is fully within the scope of normal gameplay.  When I blockaded Unforgiving I did so in response to them sending cloaky campers up to our area first.  I offered them a way out, remove the cloaky campers from our area and I remove mine.  My presence in their system was conditional on their presence in ours and they had a choice as to whether I stayed or not.

    When I blockaded Tribal Band again it was for a specific reason and I didn't follow a single player, but the entire alliance of 1000's of players.  All they had to do was give me docking rights and I would have stopped.

    On the other hand, specfically targeting me, for no apparent reason, calling me a pedophile and other disgusting things, ranting for hours non-stop in local, even when I was not replying and not providing any way to get rid of them is outright, rule breaking harassment.

    As for the PL thing, if you watch the video you can clearly see the only people fighting CCP are PL, the reason, if you had actually played EvE for a decent amount of time is that Amamake is PL's staging and home system.  If you hold an event there its certain, not probably, but certain, that PL, being one of the most powerful alliances in the game will dominate.  If you fill your ships with 30 bill isk monocles its certain, not probable, that the people looting those monocles will be PL.

    Even if high seccers had gone to Amamake to try to kill CCP they would have been systematically slaughtered by PL.  Players know that, PL knows that, Devs should know that.  

    It was an outright, "here have 800 billion isk in stuff PL" by the devs.

    The only thing certain about you is that you dodge responsibility for your actions ( "it was for a specific reason and I didn't follow a single player, but the entire alliance of 1000's of players."  ever think you may have royally pissed someone off doing that? and them coming after you for revenge believe it or not is well within the scope of the game, harassment goes to them coming to your house and kicking your shit in or stalking you in real life not in-game, this shit happens in WoW and other MMOs as well the only difference is EVE is a big fat target because it has so many "horror" stories told by "innocent" people who then neglect to say: well our community is also one that donate heavily whenever a charity fundraiser is put on and said fundraiser is both player and CCP policed, you'd not only get your toon banned but their alts lollerstomped by groups of people until you quit the game if you tried to scam a fundraiser, that all those victims you mentioned, you not included of course because you are as much a victim in this as erotica is, maybe even more so because no CSM is nailing you to the cross and your victims aren't agreeing that you were in the right, got in-game support from people but you delightfully forget to mention that and focus on the negative to get your own way ).

     

    Short answer: If you are a douche people will be a douche to you and trust me they will find the best ways to piss you off if you did it to them so stop crying to anyone that can hear you and be at least half the man you physically are because words do not fucking matter, actions do and those "harassers" never did anything beyond following you around which is allot less than what you did to others.

     

    Once again my actions were not bannable. The actions of the person who harassed me were. If a player cannot deal with normal gameplay and takes it so personally they sub 3 alt accounts for the purposes of implementing a months long campaign of harassment in breach of the TOS and EULA then they should have action taken against those accounts.

    There is no place in game or on the forums for stalking or harassment. CCPs words not mine. Read the EULA and TOS. It sounds like your defense of this persons weird fixation which may have been caused by my legitimate and within the rules actions in game might even go as far as out of game actions against a player (assault etc).

     

     

    Yeah...

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass

    Now have fun justifying your point of view when both you and him/them are within the definitions... well within TOS...trololol... both of your are equally in or equally outside it, targeting people makes no point because him/they created a hostile environment for you just as you did for him/them in the past. Take your lumps, learn to block and hopefully stop using arguments like "If you think I am wrong you think pedophilia is funny, do you think that is ok?" .

    Let's look at my in game actions versus the person who harassed me.

     

    My Victim Tribal Band - a deep null sec alliance with thousands of players. 

    Me, a single player in a very expensive ship and pod.

     

    The "Griefing" - I cloaked in their system and killed players over a month long period. I had originally gone down there to see if I could dock so I could make some isk as I had just returned to EvE after a year or so away from the game. I had been attacked by their members for no reason other than that I had intruded on their space. 

    My methods - After being aggressed and finding out that I was not allowed to dock I asked for blue status so I could dock. It was denied. I then told them if they refused to let me dock I would start killing them, primarily because they had tried to kill me.

    I then began killing them. Each time in a system filled with their allies. Each time decloaking and exposing myself to boat violencing. While I was AFK cloaking that was entirely due to the inability to log off in station or AFK in station. You do not want to be logging off in war because that provides critical intel regarding when you are active making hot drop traps much more likely.

    Over the course of a month I killed 32 ships / pods. In turn was hot dropped once and lost another ship in a trap once. I sacrificed two pods of 1.8 billion isk rather than jump 60 jumps back in which it was highly unlikely I wouldn't hit a bubble and die anyway.

     

    Vs

     

    My griefer - 3 brand new alts in noob ships value zero isk.

    The reason - none provided

    Time period - indefinite, when I quit going on 4 months

    Method - perma cloaked, verbal harassment, never open to boat violencing

     

    Clearly the main difference is I was playing within the game rules, I had a valid reason, I provided an 'out', I exposed myself regularly to PvP and retaliation, I was putting multiple billions of isk on the line (faction fit T3, full head of high grade implants), I was using my main (reputation and consequences in the future).

     

    To try to compare the two is infantile and ignores that my actions were within the game rules while the others actions were harassment and bannable.

    Edit: I'll also point out that one of the things that separates me from a greifer is that during the war with Tribal I identified several noobie players in who were operating in the area and after killing them once or twice I sent them a mail telling them that they were free to operate in the area and would no longer be attacked.  I did that because I recognize that repeat killing of noobs is not beneficial to me or the game and my primary motivation is to have fun, not make people unhappy and quit.  That's the very definition of a good player, one that CCP should wish to keep, not a greifer, who they should wish to get rid of.

  • nicariftnicarift Member UncommonPosts: 70
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    Griefing has been around since early computer based gaming has been around.  The intention of the griefer is to cause annoyance, loss, or unpleasantness for the victim.  In extreme cases griefing causes people to quit playing a game as their ability to enjoy the game is curtailed.  In such instances its counter productive for the games company to allow such activity in its game.  It loses subscriptions, which causes loss of revenue.  Griefing also causes damage to the reputation of the company and the game that company runs.

     

    Not so for EvE Online.  CCP Games actively support and encourage player griefing against its 'carebear' and 'newbie' population.  When Goonswarm held its Burn Jita event, an event designed to bypass the usual 24 hours of notice in high sec wars, by taking an armada of ships into high sec's Jita trade system and suicide killing any and every player they could, CCP not only did nothing, they actively encouraged it.

     

    When Goonswarms leader stood up and belittled, humiliated, shared private correspondence and encouraged a player to commit suicide at CCP's fanfest, both the audience and developers who were presence laughed along with him.  Was he permbanned, no.  

     

    Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

     

    In the last few weeks the Erotica1fiasco, in which a player and his wife were victimised, harassed and had a disability mocked caused CCP to reevaluate its stance on griefing.  Their response.  Well it was actually nothing and meant nothing. They reserved the right to decide when someone has crossed the line between "normal" griefing and "naughty" griefing. Erotica1 was banned however only after 6 weeks and huge community outcry, including a 300 page threadnaught, that might have caused CCP to get some bad press.

    And of course Erotica1 is back with a new alt, running the exact same scam with the same bonus rooms that led to the outcry.

     

    Do the developers simply turn a blind eye to this conduct or are they complicit in it?  A recent event led by the developers themselves involved inviting a large number of "carebears" from highsec into null sec (the main area set aside for PvP) and into the welcoming arms of a waiting gate camp (basically EvE's main form of PvP - Spawncamping).  Mistake? Highly unlikely.  It seems more than likely that they leaked the location of this event to the alliance in question with the express purpose of feeding their players to the waiting alliance.

     

    That the developers and certain players in the game are linked by more than a customer / developer relationship was demonstrated when the developers staged an event in the home system of one of the most powerful alliances in the game.  The leader of whom is an ex-CCP developer themselves.  On this occasion the developers dropped 800 billion isk worth of items exclusively to this player entity.

     

    Which brings me to my own experience with griefing and developer apathy.  In early February I decided to help a group of players set up a non-kill on sight area in Stain null sec.  At this same time a player or players created 3 alt accounts, sent those alts out to Stain where they proceeded to follow me from system to system, verbally abusing me in local for hours at a time.  I was called a pedophile and accused of watching child pornography as well as being subjected to constant foul language.  This went on non-stop for 4 months.

     

    I managed to get the player or players in question to admit they were specifically targeting me for harassment and petitioned them.  Even though I supplied the GM's with screenshots in which the player states they are specifically targeting me for harassment no action was taken against those players. Given the characters in question were using cloaks which prevents any retaliation I was not able to take any in game action against them. 

     

    I then went to the forums and posted about this issue.  The forum post I created was trolled incessantly, I was insulted, abused, belittled and villified for over 23 pages and then my thread locked by mods for 'breaching a rule of discussing GM actions' while the people who had spent hours of their time harassing and mocking my situation received no punishment at all.

     

    I unsubscribed my accounts and posted a message to CCP in the Out of Pod Experience subforum regarding the lack of moderation and the lack of support dealing with my harassment and that thread was also subjected to trolling, spam, and anti-social posts which breached almost every rule of the forums.  Yet no action was taken against those players.

     

    So if you're an aweful person, you like to cause other players to feel bad, you like to cause pain to people who have cancer, you enjoy trolling, you enjoy making fun of people with disabilities, you like being led into a traps by developers, you're okay with developer favoritism, you enjoy flying around in space with corporations that have names like "Creampie Carpet Munchers" and your a general asshat then EvE online is likely for you.

    For normal people, I'd suggest a different game.

     

    Infinity Ziona

     

     

     

     

    Lets see where you got the information from.

  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,010

    I've played Eve since 2006, never been scammed.

     

    Most scams are so darn obvious you can smell them miles away.

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by nicarift
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    Griefing has been around since early computer based gaming has been around.  The intention of the griefer is to cause annoyance, loss, or unpleasantness for the victim.  In extreme cases griefing causes people to quit playing a game as their ability to enjoy the game is curtailed.  In such instances its counter productive for the games company to allow such activity in its game.  It loses subscriptions, which causes loss of revenue.  Griefing also causes damage to the reputation of the company and the game that company runs.

     

    Not so for EvE Online.  CCP Games actively support and encourage player griefing against its 'carebear' and 'newbie' population.  When Goonswarm held its Burn Jita event, an event designed to bypass the usual 24 hours of notice in high sec wars, by taking an armada of ships into high sec's Jita trade system and suicide killing any and every player they could, CCP not only did nothing, they actively encouraged it.

     

    When Goonswarms leader stood up and belittled, humiliated, shared private correspondence and encouraged a player to commit suicide at CCP's fanfest, both the audience and developers who were presence laughed along with him.  Was he permbanned, no.  

     

    Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

     

    In the last few weeks the Erotica1fiasco, in which a player and his wife were victimised, harassed and had a disability mocked caused CCP to reevaluate its stance on griefing.  Their response.  Well it was actually nothing and meant nothing. They reserved the right to decide when someone has crossed the line between "normal" griefing and "naughty" griefing. Erotica1 was banned however only after 6 weeks and huge community outcry, including a 300 page threadnaught, that might have caused CCP to get some bad press.

    And of course Erotica1 is back with a new alt, running the exact same scam with the same bonus rooms that led to the outcry.

     

    Do the developers simply turn a blind eye to this conduct or are they complicit in it?  A recent event led by the developers themselves involved inviting a large number of "carebears" from highsec into null sec (the main area set aside for PvP) and into the welcoming arms of a waiting gate camp (basically EvE's main form of PvP - Spawncamping).  Mistake? Highly unlikely.  It seems more than likely that they leaked the location of this event to the alliance in question with the express purpose of feeding their players to the waiting alliance.

     

    That the developers and certain players in the game are linked by more than a customer / developer relationship was demonstrated when the developers staged an event in the home system of one of the most powerful alliances in the game.  The leader of whom is an ex-CCP developer themselves.  On this occasion the developers dropped 800 billion isk worth of items exclusively to this player entity.

     

    Which brings me to my own experience with griefing and developer apathy.  In early February I decided to help a group of players set up a non-kill on sight area in Stain null sec.  At this same time a player or players created 3 alt accounts, sent those alts out to Stain where they proceeded to follow me from system to system, verbally abusing me in local for hours at a time.  I was called a pedophile and accused of watching child pornography as well as being subjected to constant foul language.  This went on non-stop for 4 months.

     

    I managed to get the player or players in question to admit they were specifically targeting me for harassment and petitioned them.  Even though I supplied the GM's with screenshots in which the player states they are specifically targeting me for harassment no action was taken against those players. Given the characters in question were using cloaks which prevents any retaliation I was not able to take any in game action against them. 

     

    I then went to the forums and posted about this issue.  The forum post I created was trolled incessantly, I was insulted, abused, belittled and villified for over 23 pages and then my thread locked by mods for 'breaching a rule of discussing GM actions' while the people who had spent hours of their time harassing and mocking my situation received no punishment at all.

     

    I unsubscribed my accounts and posted a message to CCP in the Out of Pod Experience subforum regarding the lack of moderation and the lack of support dealing with my harassment and that thread was also subjected to trolling, spam, and anti-social posts which breached almost every rule of the forums.  Yet no action was taken against those players.

     

    So if you're an aweful person, you like to cause other players to feel bad, you like to cause pain to people who have cancer, you enjoy trolling, you enjoy making fun of people with disabilities, you like being led into a traps by developers, you're okay with developer favoritism, you enjoy flying around in space with corporations that have names like "Creampie Carpet Munchers" and your a general asshat then EvE online is likely for you.

    For normal people, I'd suggest a different game.

     

    Infinity Ziona

     

     

     

     

    Lets see where you got the information from.

    I made a post after that post linking irrefutable evidence of what I said.  I'm not going to link it again.

    I would also like to respond to the people who seek to discredit me as an "Exaggerator, troll etc".

    I have played EvE from April 2003 to just recently, 11 years of EvE Online.  This means I have a very good knowledge of the game, its politics, and how it has changed from a great game and great community to a very poor game, with very broken mechanics and a very poor community that experiences no moderation at all other than against those people who speak out against the state of the game.

    The reason; a core clique of trolls and abusers dislike me is simply because I am not afraid to speak out.  I don't merely offer opinions, I test and present factual results.  

    When the alliances dared me to war dec them in EVE, I created the Privateers, and we declared war on almost every alliance in game.  The alliances screamed and cried and railed against us and we were nerfed.  

    When Baltec and co claimed that high sec was too easy and rich and that null sec was poor and ignored I took a ship out to null sec, into Baltecs alliances space, and by running sites and screenshotting my drops I showed that one could make multiple billions of isk solo in null, thousands of times more than one could make in high sec in the same period.  

    When NC. griefed a guy with cancer, I spoke out against them very strongly.  When the CSM votes, I make posts about how theres a permanent Goon on the CSM, how the vote is so imbalanced its pointless to even vote, how 10 people all from Goons and the big alliances are allowed to vote on game changing mechanics (No Cov Ops Cloak on the Nestor for example) And so on and so on.

    The alliances, ISD, CSM and CPP don't like criticism, they don't like people disagreeing with their all knowledgable clique and so I was ostracized, every post on the boards I made was filled with pages upon pages of unmoderated personal attacks and trolling.

    In my opinion, the person harassing me in game was very likely one of the ISD, CSM, or perhaps even worse.  At the least the inaction by CCP was a outright confirmation that when it comes to people who speak out against CCP's nepotistic clique ridden game, out of game harassment is ignored.

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,331
    Originally posted by MauriceMacouille


    EvE wasn´t always that way. Griefers started breeding wildly around 2008.

    Not true. Griefing has been widespread in EVE since day 0.

    What has changed is that griefing as a lifestyle in EVE is much more accepted, which means that it is now something you brag about, where earlier you would do it on an alt and certainly not tell anyone but your most trusted corpmates about it.

    It has gone from being gameplay wise acceptable to also being socially acceptable.

    That is the great change that came with the fall of BoB's e-honor empire and the rise of Goon'ism.

  • BlackWatchBlackWatch Member UncommonPosts: 972

    While I promote the concept of 'war' in games and 'PvP' within the game system, being a D-Bag should never be encouraged.  

    Players that hate other players (especially in large groups) help keep a fire going.  The game company is happy.  it's free content that they didn't have to create.

    Is it right?  No.  Not in the ways described by the original post/poster.  

    I'm sure that there are a lot of people that see the type of behavior described as 'okay'.  Well, those people don't have a moral compass.   Not everybody really does.

    It is what it is  

    The game has been around for years and likely won't change, unfortunately.

    I checked EVE out a few times.  Ultimately, it was stuff like what has been described in the OP and seemingly supported in some following posts that caused me to leave the game.  Well, that and the lack of other features that I feel the game is seriously lacking.

    Hope you found another game to play and enjoy. 

    image

  • RodentofdoomRodentofdoom Member Posts: 273
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Rule Two. NEVER undock what you can't afford to replace.

     

    A better Rule 2 is - Never undock in what your not prepared to lose.

     

    they could be rules 2.a & 2.b  :D

     

    non-consensual pvp is a core design element of the game, that's not going to change at any point

    by clicking the [Undock] button you are essentially saying "I agree" to the statement 'Your ship might explode!'

     

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by hfztt
    Originally posted by MauriceMacouille


    EvE wasn´t always that way. Griefers started breeding wildly around 2008.

    Not true. Griefing has been widespread in EVE since day 0.

    What has changed is that griefing as a lifestyle in EVE is much more accepted, which means that it is now something you brag about, where earlier you would do it on an alt and certainly not tell anyone but your most trusted corpmates about it.

    It has gone from being gameplay wise acceptable to also being socially acceptable.

    That is the great change that came with the fall of BoB's e-honor empire and the rise of Goon'ism.

    Yeah this is true.  Griefing (screw my teacher who told me to put an i before e except after c, its really messed with my spelling) has been around since day 0.

    But we also had a CCP who cared about keeping every player they could get.  It was a CCP that was invested in their game, not their friendships with certain players theyve made out of game within Goonswarm, the CSM and ISD.

    When CCP made changes to the game that imbalanced ships, such that mining and missioning ships could be alpha'd down in one shot they beefed up Concord or fixed those issues.  When players found holes in the code they banned those players for exploting (Zombie, an entire corporation of players was banned for such an exploit).  

    But as CCP's playerbase grew, as devs left and other devs from inside the playerbase were recruited, likely more to do with out of game friendships rather than development skill, the devs became less and less likely to take action.  Exploits and imbalanced mechanics which were beneficial to favoured in game entities were allowed to stay in and be exploited and only then patched out and declared bannable after being farmed for years (tech moons as an example).

    We're at a stage now that Goonswarm, despite having abused timers for years, and having almost taken over the entire player claimable areas, is still allowed to abuse those timers.  Despite the timer issue killing the primary reason to play EVE, big space battles of thousands of players on each side, the timer issue has been declared 'working fine and we're not intending to change anything in the immediate future".  

    The rot starts within CCP, because CCP has allowed itself to become mired in external RL friendships, with both Goonswarm, PL, the griefers, the CSM, CCP itself and the ISD not being able to be independent of the other groups.   

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by Mr.SeriousGuy
    spread sheet the game meets point and click interface with global pvp what could go wrong ... this is the game that people that play football manager 2014 play when they want something "more intense" so you know its safe for elderly and people with heart conditions . hand eye coordination means nothing its all micro managing of assets and time .

    Yeah I don't really get the spreadsheet analogy.  There is quite a of lot of player skill required in small scale EvE pvp.  It is more based on knowledge of the game mechanics rather than quick reflexes but at the same time you do have to do a lot of micromanaging in combat that is similiar to what you would find in World of Warcraft type PvP.

     

    Take this for example.

    Blaster Proteus (Warrior) with 120k EHP buffer (health bar), 700 dps (dps), webs (snares), range issues (kiting, preventing kiting), scrambles (stuns / roots), capacitor (mana / stamina), nuets, ecm (special attacks).

    Just like a good pvp'r in World of Warcraft is the one that can integrate all of that into their pvp while adjusting to the dynamic nature of battle, one has to do the same in EvE PvP.

    For large fleet battles, which is where CCP pushes all its funds and energy, yeah its basically spreadsheets but for actual real pvp in smaller battles, they're very similiar.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,536
    Originally posted by Mr.SeriousGuy
    spread sheet the game meets point and click interface with global pvp what could go wrong ... this is the game that people that play football manager 2014 play when they want something "more intense" so you know its safe for elderly and people with heart conditions . hand eye coordination means nothing its all micro managing of assets and time .

    If you'd ever played Eve you would realise how silly that statement is. Although, i do agree that you don't need to have the 'twitch' skills normally associated with FPS games, it does however require a certain amount of 'mental agility' that other games perhaps don't. If you want a game about micro managing of assets etc. then you probably would be better off playing simcity online. Understanding Eve is perhaps the hardest thing someone can do, after a steady diet of themeparks, CCP have improved the tutorials but the onus is still on the new player to seek out a Corp to join to 'complete' their training etc. There are many that do. Eve is not 'safe' it is however, whatever you put into it and more, and unlike in most other games, Politics in Eve can kill you, and of course there are the goons, and their inevitable Burn Jita events. Eve may just be too much for you to handle image

  • SpiiderSpiider Member RarePosts: 718

    There are some awesome people in EVE. But there is the other side too. And you are right, CCP is encouraging all kinds of bad behaviour, including scamming, cheating etc. Let's not forget that CCP devs were activly involved in rigging T2 BPO lottery in favor of Band of Brothers alliance (which they were members of). Luckily, as soon as T2 BPOs became available for all, BOB was put in the right place - history. And no one in CCP was ever fired for that.

    It's their culture. Either you learn how to live with it and enjoy EVE (which is still one of the best games out there if you have the nerves of steel) or you don't.

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • Vexus_XVexus_X Member UncommonPosts: 54

    So, basically the point is that EVE is awesome and bad-ass and 1 in 100,000 people get their lives ruined by other players in the game?

     

    Hell, WoW ruined more lives than that without players even getting involved!

     

    EVE is the Saint's MMO.

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by Vexus_X

    So, basically the point is that EVE is awesome and bad-ass and 1 in 100,000 people get their lives ruined by other players in the game?

     

    Hell, WoW ruined more lives than that without players even getting involved!

     

    EVE is the Saint's MMO.

    No.  The point is that if you're looking for a game to play and you're considering playing EvE that you need to be aware that:

    * certain special players who have RL connections to CCP, ISD (forum moderators), GM's, CSM (player representatives who only represent a small group of players) will be immune from any actions against your player even when those actions are in breach of the EULA and TOS and extend out of game.

    * certain players can choose to continuously and methodically 'grief' you and you will have no recourse other than to not log on and play.

    * There is no forum moderation and as such you will be unable to use the forums without being constantly trolled, harassed and abused by other forum users.  If you complain your complaints will be ignored and the ISD will start a campaign of locking every thread you make by using random EULA / TOS violations while ignoring hundreds of similiar EULA / TOS violations in those threads made against you.

    * The huge fleet battles that CCP pretend happen on a regular basis don't actually happen.  100% of conquerable space is conquered by two massive coalitions, one of which is Goonswarm or what many people call Devswarm for obvious reasons.

    * If you do manage to get into an alliance without being tricked into a 5 second you vs 100+ players ganking you and its not Devswarm or its coalition CFC then your fleet battles will consist of 4000 Devswarm vs 2000 or less of you being royally screwed in 1 second per frame slideshow that turns 2 hours of one sided PvP into 8 or more hours of 1 sided PvP.  

    If you do manage to beat Devswarm, the slowed down system mechanics in which you are fighting will allow them to bring 4000 more players to ensure your victory is very short lived since outside of the time dilation ships and pilots will be able to move 10's of jumps in the time it takes for you to lock and shoot a single ship.

    * You'll be facing a coalition of around 40,000 players or more.  To put that in perspective, my country Australia has an active army of 20,000 people.  If CFC and Goons were a country, they would rank 30th on the list of the worlds smaller countries.   

    * If you join an event in game you'll most likely be fed to very high SP players by the developers leading that event.  

    * You'll have to try to deal trying to fight players who are developers or friends of developers.

    * You'll have to deal with events in which the biggest most poweful alliances in the game use alts that cannot be tracked or have revenge taken against them insta killing you whenever they like even in the most safe newbie areas of the game without any recourse.

     

  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257

    I was actually going to write a proper reply to your post, but then I noticed this thread derived into a sea of bullshit accusations and factless evidence. It's a shame most people here have no idea about the history of  trolling and baseless posts you've written in the official boards. 

     

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    I was actually going to write a proper reply to your post, but then I noticed this thread derived into a sea of bullshit accusations and factless evidence. It's a shame most people here have no idea about the history of  trolling and baseless posts you've written in the official boards. 

     

    I am well aware of it actually... hence why I am laughing my ass off at IK trying to rationalize him abusing a group of players, with good reasons people!, while trying to be a victim himself. Surprising amount of self-servicing there to be honest but even more surprising is the amount of people jumping onto his bandwagon either trying to dodge them getting made a fool of in-game because they did not apply rudimentary logic coupled with the game's unspoken rules or are just in it to stir drama like oh so many gaming "news" sites.

    image
  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    I was actually going to write a proper reply to your post, but then I noticed this thread derived into a sea of bullshit accusations and factless evidence. It's a shame most people here have no idea about the history of  trolling and baseless posts you've written in the official boards. 

     

    Your post alledges"bullshit" and "factless evidence" but you don't actually specify any.  I'd be interested to know what specifically I have said that is "bullshit" and "factless evidence".  

    Do you deny that the forums are being moderated in a biased fashion?

    Do you deny that a number of current and former developers are part of Goonswarm?

    Do you deny that the requirement for any smaller entity to turn up 24 hours after an attack to be met by a % of the 40,000 CFC to finish off an attack isn't beneficial to the 40,000 CFC members?

    Do you deny that the only permanent member of the CSM is a Goon, that the soveriegnty system wasn't at least partially designed by a former EvE player, turned developer, turned PL leader?

    Do you deny that CCP staged an event which directly dropped 800 billion isk worth of extremely rare monocles to that same ex-Dev now leader of PL?

    Do you deny that same ex-player, turned dev, turned PL leader is not and has not been the chairperson of the CSM.

    Do you deny that the voting process for CSM means the CFC and Goons can vote in as many members of the CFC / Goons as they want.

    Do you deny that petitions regarding my harassment were never acted upon.  I can't tell you if it was either because GM's refuse to actually tell you if anything was done.  All I know is that person is still in game.

    Do you deny that any post that the forum trolls and abusers dont' like is filled with hate, spam and trolling until the ISD locks it rather than take care of the trolls, haters and spammers??

    There is a lot more you could deny but the truth is the truth and mere denials don't change that.

     

  • MauriceMacouilleMauriceMacouille Member CommonPosts: 9
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by hfztt
    Originally posted by MauriceMacouille


    EvE wasn´t always that way. Griefers started breeding wildly around 2008.

    Not true. Griefing has been widespread in EVE since day 0.

    What has changed is that griefing as a lifestyle in EVE is much more accepted, which means that it is now something you brag about, where earlier you would do it on an alt and certainly not tell anyone but your most trusted corpmates about it.

    It has gone from being gameplay wise acceptable to also being socially acceptable.

    That is the great change that came with the fall of BoB's e-honor empire and the rise of Goon'ism.

    Yeah this is true.  Griefing (screw my teacher who told me to put an i before e except after c, its really messed with my spelling) has been around since day 0.

    But we also had a CCP who cared about keeping every player they could get.  It was a CCP that was invested in their game, not their friendships with certain players theyve made out of game within Goonswarm, the CSM and ISD.

    When CCP made changes to the game that imbalanced ships, such that mining and missioning ships could be alpha'd down in one shot they beefed up Concord or fixed those issues.  When players found holes in the code they banned those players for exploting (Zombie, an entire corporation of players was banned for such an exploit).  

    But as CCP's playerbase grew, as devs left and other devs from inside the playerbase were recruited, likely more to do with out of game friendships rather than development skill, the devs became less and less likely to take action.  Exploits and imbalanced mechanics which were beneficial to favoured in game entities were allowed to stay in and be exploited and only then patched out and declared bannable after being farmed for years (tech moons as an example).

    We're at a stage now that Goonswarm, despite having abused timers for years, and having almost taken over the entire player claimable areas, is still allowed to abuse those timers.  Despite the timer issue killing the primary reason to play EVE, big space battles of thousands of players on each side, the timer issue has been declared 'working fine and we're not intending to change anything in the immediate future".  

    The rot starts within CCP, because CCP has allowed itself to become mired in external RL friendships, with both Goonswarm, PL, the griefers, the CSM, CCP itself and the ISD not being able to be independent of the other groups.   

     

    I´m sorry but if you`ve been around since 2003 you know fully well that recruitment scams and the like were quasi non-existent until a couple years ago, and that before 0.0 had stabilized into goons vs everyone, being scanned while running a mission was a very rare occurence for example. Let´s not even talk about high-sec ganking, which was seldom heard of between MoO´s exploits and hulkageddon´s variations.

    The communitiy has very clearly changed, and as griefing became more widespread it became more socially accepted, or the reverse, or both. To pretend otherwise is blatant lying.

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia Member UncommonPosts: 203
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    I was actually going to write a proper reply to your post, but then I noticed this thread derived into a sea of bullshit accusations and factless evidence. It's a shame most people here have no idea about the history of  trolling and baseless posts you've written in the official boards. 

     

    I am well aware of it actually... hence why I am laughing my ass off at IK trying to rationalize him abusing a group of players, with good reasons people!, while trying to be a victim himself. Surprising amount of self-servicing there to be honest but even more surprising is the amount of people jumping onto his bandwagon either trying to dodge them getting made a fool of in-game because they did not apply rudimentary logic coupled with the game's unspoken rules or are just in it to stir drama like oh so many gaming "news" sites.

    Since when is a war against an alliance considered abusing players?  If you want to expand on that then anyone going into another persons sovereign space to kill them is abusing players?  I guess any sovereignty war then is abuse since it's very much what I did to Tribal.  

    No clearly you seem intent on trying to justify creating alts to follow one player around for 4 months verbally abusing by calling them a pedophile and inferring they watch child porn by very wrongly comparing that behavior to normal pvp play.  

  • SmintarSmintar Member UncommonPosts: 214
    I totally agree with you and its this reason I will not play this one I started in Beta and tried it for a while But this community is just pathetic and I too tell players to stay away from this!
  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    My experience with EVE is that people get out of it what they put into it.

    For some reason, people who spend all their time complaining about other people rarely seem to do well in EVE.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by uplink4242

    I was actually going to write a proper reply to your post, but then I noticed this thread derived into a sea of bullshit accusations and factless evidence. It's a shame most people here have no idea about the history of  trolling and baseless posts you've written in the official boards. 

     

    I am well aware of it actually... hence why I am laughing my ass off at IK trying to rationalize him abusing a group of players, with good reasons people!, while trying to be a victim himself. Surprising amount of self-servicing there to be honest but even more surprising is the amount of people jumping onto his bandwagon either trying to dodge them getting made a fool of in-game because they did not apply rudimentary logic coupled with the game's unspoken rules or are just in it to stir drama like oh so many gaming "news" sites.

    Since when is a war against an alliance considered abusing players?  If you want to expand on that then anyone going into another persons sovereign space to kill them is abusing players?  I guess any sovereignty war then is abuse since it's very much what I did to Tribal.  

    No clearly you seem intent on trying to justify creating alts to follow one player around for 4 months verbally abusing by calling them a pedophile and inferring they watch child porn by very wrongly comparing that behavior to normal pvp play.  

    The only one justifying anything is you because going into a enemy alliance's space to kill players is ok, denying them use of their own space via afk cloaking in their systems for days or weeks at a time and verbally abusing them while you're at it isn't and trust me if there was a means to declare war on a individual you would've been at war for those months you were "stalked" and "abused" for what can only be your past transgressions not some make believe reason you can cook up. Also differentiating between one form of verbal abuse and another is pointless because they targeted your weakness not a specific disturbing facet of life because I rather doubt they would've kept calling you a pedobear if you didn't care.

     

    Fun fact: You shouldn't care what someone is calling you in a online game except maybe if they knew you in real life. If you were getting called a pedo on your facebook, myspace, twitter, whatever, then it classes as harassment but until then de-inflate your ego and learn to take the abuse you "righteously" doll out during what you consider to be normal circumstances (which are at best only a subset).

     

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  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,013
    Originally posted by Rigur

    Let them have their cesspit. Send as many bad players to that game as possible. Anything to keep them from other games.

    Sorry about you being greifed and trolled. That's what these people find fun. Sadly you will have the same thing happen here for posting this.

    Cold, harsh Universe, blah, blah, blah.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopath

This discussion has been closed.