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So Richard Garriott ...
Aragon100
Member RarePosts: 2,686
You told us UO PvP veterans that Shroud of the Avatar was the spiritual successor to Ultima Online.
http://i.imgur.com/e5BgsFm.png
I have to ask you, what similarities do Shroud of the Avatar PvP have with that old Ultima Online game when it comes to PvP?
Do SotA have risk vs reward in PvP? What we know so far it dont.
Do SotA have consequences in PvP? It have insurance that give the winning player some gold, no gear loot whatsoever if the looser have gold in his bank.
Do SotA have a skill based combat system as old UO had? What we know so far is that SotA have a random and luckbased cardgame as combat system which is nothing remotely close to that old UO game that had the so far most skill based combat system seen in any MMORPG.
Why are there no similarities with SotA and that old UO game when it comes to PvP if this is the spiritual successor to that old UO game?
My problem with you telling us old UO veterans that this will be the spiritual successor to UO is that you lied to us. Shroud of the Avatar is more like WoW when it comes to PvP, it is no spiritual successor to UO when it comes to PvP. No full loot and no risk vs reward and no consequences. It would have been better if you would have informed us old UO PvP veterans at kickstarter level that Shroud of Avatar PvP will be more of a WoW PvP game then a spiritual successor to that old UO game. I must say i am very disaponted at you.
I pledged for your game on your promise and i feel you tricked me. Dont worry though i wont go for a reclaim of my pledge, so you can keep my money but i want you to remember the way you managed to get it.
And why didnt you inform all of us old UO PvP veterans at kickstarter time how the PvP will turn out? That would have been fair towards all that feel like me today. Saying it will be the spiritual successor to UO gave alot of us hope that we will play that old UO game again. Saying that it will be the spiritual successor to UO at kickstarter and very little about how exactly PvP will turn out in SotA must have given you alot of pledges from those old UO veterans. Sad you broke your promise though, well you broke the promise it would be a spiritual successor to UO PvP that many of us hoped it would be.
Can you explain to us old UO PvP veterans what we have to look forward to when it comes to PvP? What similarities are there btw SotA and UO PvP?
Comments
I think you over-estimate A: how often he reads these forums B: how much he actually cares about your opinion seeing as you are still donating to the game.
But i guess you feel better now as you got that off your chest.
This have been a good conversation
The way you have presented this it does seem to be a "bait and switch" with the comments made by him. I don't drink the kool-aid anywhere these days until I see some code running backing up developers statements. Remember too that this could change through the development cycles, but from the statements released it seems they have set the course.
As far as old UO mechanics based around pvp in an mmo there are options that stay true to the style you mention in development.
Life IS Feudal
Yeah he tricked me to pledge for something that was never there. I doubt he will ever repond to this cause he know i am right and that wont help him in his mission making SotA successful.
No he will most likley never respond because it is a very small chance that he him self see this post. If you have not done so you could try to send him a tweet/private message (where ever he hang out) and ask him there. This forum is more for player to player communication.
That being said... UO PvP IIRC was mostly about clicking attack and hoping for the best. Agree about the risk vs reward thing (as in the main goal was always to get as much reward for as little risk as one could.. like ganking weak mages just out of combat... You know you did it... Actually taking in to account how often it happend to me... it was the only way people made money) it does seem weird to have the setup they have if they are going for that classic feel... It would be a system about as outdated as BETAMax tapes but it would hold more true to the original vision.
But as i said.. Twitter is your best bet to get some response... that or maybe reddit.
This have been a good conversation
Why didn't you post in the forum Q&A when it was going on? At least you might have gotten a response then.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/408742
I guess you were very unexperienced and never any good at UO PvP since you believe UO PvP was about clicking attack and hope for the best.
UO PvP as a mage was fast paced and you needed superb timing in everything you did, timing and tactics. Old UO veterans know this since they used it in every encounter. UO teamfight took loads of player skills, tactics and teamplay - to become successful as a team you needed a good caller of spells, good communication and very good timing of spells and of course the ones being attacked needed just as good if nor better healing capacity, and everything had to be done in milliseconds. This described is just a small part of what was needed in UO to become successful.
There havent been a MMO game before or after old pre Age of Shadows UO that took as much player skills to become successful. My GM:s won a 2 vs 15 against another experienced PvP guild, they managed this cause they were very experienced and had superior player skills. Old UO had very little with luck to do.
So your attack and hope for the best have nothing with reality to do. Did you even play the game or just here to troll?
I believe Richard will read this, actually i am quite sure he does. Will he respond? I doubt it.
I am not online on this site 24/7. Are you?
I dont see my money at all well spent since SotA is as far as it could be from that old UO game when it comes to PvP.
And i do expect developers to stand by their words.
Crowdfunding is not for you. Buyer beware. What everyone donated to was a vision for a game, not a promise of anything concrete. If anyone failed to understand that about crowdfunding game development, oh well...lessons learned.
Shroud of the Avatar is still indeed the spiritual successor to Ultima and UO. But it is not Ultima X or UO2. Anyone hoping for exactly that or "more of the same" will be disappointed and should wait until the game is done at the end of this year to see how things turn out. A lot can still change...for the better or worse...you never know.
After he basically extorted more money out of people by limiting prime housing spots & charging backers hundreds of dollars for them (despite having already contributed) what did you expect? Had I known I would be effectively locked out of a key game feature, I'd never have contributed in the first place.
Live and learn. While I am disappointed that the man who created several of my favorite games of all time is an overly greedy scumbag, at least I now know better than to trust a project based on a name alone. Though Brian Fargo (Wasteland 2) has so far shown integrity, so we'll see...
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
It is not a spiritual successor to the UO game i played pre-AoS.
And i believe many old UO PvP players like me feel they have been taken for a ride. Vague promises that ment nothing. But as some say, lesson learned.
Aye it is sad to see the developer you almost saw as a hero turn out to be something completely different. Seems greed have no limits.
Yeah, spiritual successor does not mean 'exact clone'. While it's perfectly fine to like particular aspects of UO, that doesn't mean it wasn't fraught with problems. They were the first out of the gate, and there were many, many things done poorly. I recall reading that in SotA they were working on the pvp to try and keep it open, but eliminate some of the problems associated with the versions from the earlier game.
I'm pretty sure that Garriott would actually have prefered to do a bit more innovation (he's at his best as an idea guy), but the 'traditionalist' element just wants a new graphics version of the exact moment in time they prefered in UO. Unfortunately, even for the old guard, that moment differs from player to player.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I and many old UO veterans didnt expect the game to have a random, luck based card game as combat system.
We also expected some risk vs reward and consequences in PvP.
Those expectations are very far from " a new graphics version of the exact moment in time they prefered in UO ".
And dont put words in my mouth.
I suggest you look up the term Spiritual Successor.
It does not mean "a copy" nor does it mean "close proximity". Also, a veteran of the original release and a veteran of the later carebear additions are not going to claim the same type of PvP = UO.
A spiritual successor,[1][2] sometimes called a spiritual sequel, is a successor to a work of fiction which does not build upon the storyline established by a previous work as do most traditional prequels or sequels, yet features many of the same elements, themes, and styles as its source material, thereby resulting in its nevertheless being related or similar "in spirit" to its predecessor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_successor
There is nothing similar "in spirit" when you compare old UO PvP with SotA PvP. SotA is not a spiritual successor to that old Ultima Online game when it comes to PvP. UO was a hardcore PvP game with risk vs reward and consequences.
I always thought SotA was a spiritual successor to the Ultima series, not specifically UO. I never got a strong feeling about PvP from the website or any videos I've seen. I viewed the link that was posted by the OP and am surprised that Garriott said it was a spritiual successor to UO... I hadn't viewed the project in that light.
If you backed the project based on a single post or a quote, then I'm I'd say that you took a big risk.
Well many did see it as a spiritual successor to UO and a spirital successor to something close to that old UO PvP. Many old UO PvP veterans pledged on those words from Richard Garriott and as it seem today SotA will be nowhere close to that old UO game when it comes to PvP.
PvP was never explained in detail during kickstarter campaign. If i knew back then what i know today Richard would never have gotten my money.
Seeing how most of my time in the game was spent on a dial-up connection... Yeah it was pretty much attack and hope for the best. I was a rather lighthearted dig at the fact that back then EVERYTHING online was s slave to evil little brother of R2-D2... No need to take it so bloody seriously. As for your memory of how PvP was... I think you have a pair of very tinted glasses on or some very selective memory.
This have been a good conversation
PvP was a small part of UO and thus not having a single element of it does not remove it from being its spiritual successor since it contains virtually everything else.
in fact you are one of the few claiming it is not, showing yet again how in the minority your train of thought is.
He said what he said about SotA to everyone, not just the "UO PvP veterans". There were many more "UO Player veterans" than "UO PvP veterans". What would you think that what he said was directed at a specific group? More importantly, why would you think the comment was directed specifically at the group you put yourself in and not the much larger group of players that played on Trammel?
It seems to me that the major problem here isn't what he said, it's what you wanted what he said to mean.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
PvP was a major feature in UO 1997-february 2003. I could go as far as claim it was the main feature that was practiced the most during that time.
I expected my group of UO veterans to be included in his statement. Why shouldnt i?
To say it is a spiritual successor to UO dont exclude UO PvP. To leave out just about all details on PvP during kickstarter made many old UO PvP veterans pledge in hope for this game would be the next UO.
So yes, i pledged on Richards words and a hope for this being the next UO with a PvP system close to that old game. And i am far from the only UO PvP veteran that did just that.
Saying it will be a spiritual successor to UO was what triggered my interest. Little to no information about PvP during kickstarter didnt make it easier. So many old UO PvP veterans have been searching for the next UO and hearing Richard the creator of UO claiming this will be the spiritual successor to UO triggered many of us to pledge. I bet no old UO PvP player that pledged on the words spiritual successor to UO saw a PvP and combat system lamer then WoW coming.
It was a smart move to claim it was a spiritual successor of UO and leave out just about all details on the PvP system. Must have brought him alot of pledgers from the old UO PvP group that were longing for the next UO.