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Is Dishonored, and other FPS/TPS with skills improvement RPGs?

nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

It seems that this site was talking about expanding to non-MMO RPG coverage. I figure i will kick it off by discussing RPGs.

Note the frequent debate here about what is a MMO .. i figure it will be fun to do the same for video game RPGs.

A skill-based progression element is in many shooters and action adventure including, but not limited to, Call to Juarez, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief, ... and many even have improvable gear (like Tomb Raider, or Splinter Cells).

Now are these RPGs? Let's the debate begin!

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Comments

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I'm not sure you can classify any games today as RPG.  They have all mixed together into one build.  RPGs used to be about textual dialogue, story, exploring, and turn based combat.   FPS were generally just about killing things.  Now FPS and RPG and combined together to form an interactive movie like experience with character building.  It's not better or worse, but it's easier to get into just like it's easier to watch a movie then read a book.  I like that in games today I don't have to expend much effort to play the game usually since everything has audio dialogue and there is no turn based combat.  On the flip side I think you also lose something that you got form games that were either interactive books or just games of exploration like Dark Souls.  I actually would like there to be more games like Dark Souls.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818

    role playing games really only need a character for you to take control of and a story to play though to fit the most basic requirement of an rpg.

    Like mmos though, if you try hard enough you can make any game "fit"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    role playing games really only need a character for you to take control of and a story to play though to fit the most basic requirement of an rpg.

     

    But none of those are missing in these "action" games.

    Take tombraider .. you take control of Laura, and there is a pretty good story narrated with cutscenes and voice over. The basic requirement of a RPG is certianly fulfilled.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    I'm not sure you can classify any games today as RPG.  They have all mixed together into one build.  RPGs used to be about textual dialogue, story, exploring, and turn based combat.   FPS were generally just about killing things.  Now FPS and RPG and combined together to form an interactive movie like experience with character building.  It's not better or worse, but it's easier to get into just like it's easier to watch a movie then read a book.  I like that in games today I don't have to expend much effort to play the game usually since everything has audio dialogue and there is no turn based combat.  On the flip side I think you also lose something that you got form games that were either interactive books or just games of exploration like Dark Souls.  I actually would like there to be more games like Dark Souls.

    The question is whether progression + story makes a game RPG.

    Textual dialogue ... obvious whether it is text or voice is just a different medium of communication with little bearing on the underlying content.

    Story .. it is present in many modern FPS .. often in great details and characterization (like Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite).

    Exploring .. this one is certainly missing .. many games are not exploration driven. But at the same time, exploration is not essential to RPGs ... ARPGs like Diablo has little true exploration ... aside from going through the dungeon and kill everything (and you can argue there is similar exploration in games like Dishonored .. explore the level to find all the goodies).

    Turn-based combat ... obviously this is not essential to a RPG.

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    I'm not sure you can classify any games today as RPG.  They have all mixed together into one build.  RPGs used to be about textual dialogue, story, exploring, and turn based combat.   FPS were generally just about killing things.  Now FPS and RPG and combined together to form an interactive movie like experience with character building.  It's not better or worse, but it's easier to get into just like it's easier to watch a movie then read a book.  I like that in games today I don't have to expend much effort to play the game usually since everything has audio dialogue and there is no turn based combat.  On the flip side I think you also lose something that you got form games that were either interactive books or just games of exploration like Dark Souls.  I actually would like there to be more games like Dark Souls.

    The question is whether progression + story makes a game RPG.

    Textual dialogue ... obvious whether it is text or voice is just a different medium of communication with little bearing on the underlying content.

    Story .. it is present in many modern FPS .. often in great details and characterization (like Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite).

    Exploring .. this one is certainly missing .. many games are not exploration driven. But at the same time, exploration is not essential to RPGs ... ARPGs like Diablo has little true exploration ... aside from going through the dungeon and kill everything (and you can argue there is similar exploration in games like Dishonored .. explore the level to find all the goodies).

    Turn-based combat ... obviously this is not essential to a RPG.

     

    There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world.  There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now.  There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.

    In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago.  I don't think many people think that now.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world.  There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now.  There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.

    In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago.  I don't think many people think that now.

    True .. but open world games is not dominant .. there are a few successes but it is not like all the games are open world.

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world.  There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now.  There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.

    In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago.  I don't think many people think that now.

    True .. but open world games is not dominant .. there are a few successes but it is not like all the games are open world.

     

    I think a lot of games are open world now.  The Witcher is a big RPG and it's moving to open world.  Grand Theft Auto games are open world.  Assassins' Creed games are open world.  Fallout games are open world.  Far Cry games are open world.  There are probably some I'm forgetting about somewhere.

  • ScalplessScalpless Member UncommonPosts: 1,426

    It depends on the prominence of the game's RP elements. First of all, role-playing isn't just getting a character and playing through the story. The term implies you get to influence the story somehow. That's why Deus Ex and Mass Effect are RPGs while the 2013 Tomb Raider isn't.

    Then, there's the overall gameplay focus. Dishonored has a (barely, but it's still there) branching storyline and some character development, but it's a stealth action game. Its focus is on sneaking around or fighting, not on developing your character.

    And lastly, the thing about character development. It's a part of any story, but in RPGs you get to influence it. Elizabeth and Booker develop a lot in Bioshock Infinite, but it's out of your control, so it's not a part of gameplay.

    Basically, characters play roles in all stories, but the player gets to play with those roles in a role-playing game.

  • crack_foxcrack_fox Member UncommonPosts: 399
    It's an interesting question. Coming from a background of D&D, my idea of an RPG has always centered on the ability to create your own character. However, that definition would exclude clear CRPGs like the Witcher. It's not about exploration, because games like Dragon Age have very limited environments. Story is by no means unique to RPGs, and stats and levels alone don't do it. So I'm not really sure what constitutes a CRPG, but then again I don't really care. I'm not that hung up on specific genres anymore. I just like the really good games. Whether they're RPGs or not, the one thing that unifies the games you listed - Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief etc - is that they are awesome gaming experiences. 
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    It seems that this site was talking about expanding to non-MMO RPG coverage. I figure i will kick it off by discussing RPGs.

    Note the frequent debate here about what is a MMO .. i figure it will be fun to do the same for video game RPGs.

    A skill-based progression element is in many shooters and action adventure including, but not limited to, Call to Juarez, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief, ... and many even have improvable gear (like Tomb Raider, or Splinter Cells).

    Now are these RPGs? Let's the debate begin!

    There is a place for RPGs in this forum, and it is not here :) Try in Role Playing discussion or in General Gaming. I know you like SP games, but to post thread for them into MMO forum is too much.

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,929
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Now are these RPGs? 

    Not in any way.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world.  There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now.  There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.

    In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago.  I don't think many people think that now.

    True .. but open world games is not dominant .. there are a few successes but it is not like all the games are open world.

     

    I think a lot of games are open world now.  The Witcher is a big RPG and it's moving to open world.  Grand Theft Auto games are open world.  Assassins' Creed games are open world.  Fallout games are open world.  Far Cry games are open world.  There are probably some I'm forgetting about somewhere.

    still not all ... for every one .. i can name one that is not. You have name 5 here ... here are the non-open world ones ..

    Dead Space, Diablo, Call of Duty, Dishonored, Bioshock, Max Payne .. oops . i named 6. Again, i did not say there are none .. or even few. I said they are "not dominant", and that "not like all the games are open world". I think i made my point.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    It's an interesting question. Coming from a background of D&D, my idea of an RPG has always centered on the ability to create your own character. However, that definition would exclude clear CRPGs like the Witcher. It's not about exploration, because games like Dragon Age have very limited environments. Story is by no means unique to RPGs, and stats and levels alone don't do it. So I'm not really sure what constitutes a CRPG, but then again I don't really care. I'm not that hung up on specific genres anymore. I just like the really good games. Whether they're RPGs or not, the one thing that unifies the games you listed - Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief etc - is that they are awesome gaming experiences. 

    That is why I made this thread .. it is no longer obvious what is a CRPG.

    Now, i am like you .. i will pay these games because they are fun. Whether they are RPGs means little for that decision.

    But given the obsession here for definition (just look at how many threads are there that try to define MMO, MMORPG, sandbox ....), i figure it would be fun discussions.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    It depends on the prominence of the game's RP elements. First of all, role-playing isn't just getting a character and playing through the story. The term implies you get to influence the story somehow. That's why Deus Ex and Mass Effect are RPGs while the 2013 Tomb Raider isn't.

    Then, there's the overall gameplay focus. Dishonored has a (barely, but it's still there) branching storyline and some character development, but it's a stealth action game. Its focus is on sneaking around or fighting, not on developing your character.

    And lastly, the thing about character development. It's a part of any story, but in RPGs you get to influence it. Elizabeth and Booker develop a lot in Bioshock Infinite, but it's out of your control, so it's not a part of gameplay.

    Basically, characters play roles in all stories, but the player gets to play with those roles in a role-playing game.

    But you don't really control the story line in Deus Ex Human Evolution. There are some side quests, but the main quest is just one controlled story with a little of branching at the end (same as Dishonored). I would even argue that the character development element is not much more in Deus Ex HE than Dishonored. Essentially you get a list of ability you can level up, and that is it.

    Or you can look at Witcher 2 .. .very much a CRPG by any categorization (note that i am not using the word "definition", but "categorization" instead). Much of the story line is canned, and you just follow it.

    So impacting the story is really not a huge deal in man CRPG. Moreover, do we also split the definition for CRPG, and ARPG? Diablo is a ARPG, you don't affect the story at all .. you just follow a linear story, and kill everything in between. However, there is a huge emphasize of items, and developing combat power.

     

  • crack_foxcrack_fox Member UncommonPosts: 399
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    But given the obsession here for definition (just look at how many threads are there that try to define MMO, MMORPG, sandbox ....),  

    I don't see what is gained by all that. Why straight-jacket games? The games that interest me are most often the ones that defy categorization. What was Mirror's Edge? A platformer? A FPS - well it was 'FP' for sure, but not really 'S'. What kind of game will No Man's Sky be? Hopefully a great one. 

    I read a lot of posts complaining about the lack of innovation in so called MMOs and the prevalence of clones. You get clones when you design a game that adheres to a strict definition of what a game of a specific genre must be. When millions of WoW players define a MMORPG as a game that looks and plays like WoW, then that becomes the accepted meaning. Personally, I think we're much better off without those definitions. I want new game experiences, not old ones with a fresh lick of paint. 

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Now are these RPGs? Let's the debate begin!

    No.An RPG is either a pen and paper RPG or a computer game based on a pen and paper RPG system. Just having progression doesn't make something an RPG in my eyes. 

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    It's an interesting question. Coming from a background of D&D, my idea of an RPG has always centered on the ability to create your own character. However, that definition would exclude clear CRPGs like the Witcher. It's not about exploration, because games like Dragon Age have very limited environments. Story is by no means unique to RPGs, and stats and levels alone don't do it. So I'm not really sure what constitutes a CRPG, but then again I don't really care. I'm not that hung up on specific genres anymore. I just like the really good games. Whether they're RPGs or not, the one thing that unifies the games you listed - Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief etc - is that they are awesome gaming experiences. 

    I would agree, but I haven't seen many turn based or real time turn based games come out in a long time.  The only one is Shadowrun Returns and thats and indie game?  There may be other indie games and I just haven't tried them.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world.  There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now.  There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.

    In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago.  I don't think many people think that now.

    True .. but open world games is not dominant .. there are a few successes but it is not like all the games are open world.

     

    I think a lot of games are open world now.  The Witcher is a big RPG and it's moving to open world.  Grand Theft Auto games are open world.  Assassins' Creed games are open world.  Fallout games are open world.  Far Cry games are open world.  There are probably some I'm forgetting about somewhere.

    still not all ... for every one .. i can name one that is not. You have name 5 here ... here are the non-open world ones ..

    Dead Space, Diablo, Call of Duty, Dishonored, Bioshock, Max Payne .. oops . i named 6. Again, i did not say there are none .. or even few. I said they are "not dominant", and that "not like all the games are open world". I think i made my point.

     

    They seem to be becoming more and more popular.  Lots of companies are doing it now because they feel it is possible to do.  They felt in the past that making a game that is open ended and uses 3D graphics was not possible.  Grand Theft Auto 5 seems to be the most popular console game of recent times.  Another I forgot was LA Noire.  Probably my favorite Linear games of recent times is Uncharted 2.  I like it more for the story then for the actual game play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    But given the obsession here for definition (just look at how many threads are there that try to define MMO, MMORPG, sandbox ....),  

    I don't see what is gained by all that. Why straight-jacket games? The games that interest me are most often the ones that defy categorization. What was Mirror's Edge? A platformer? A FPS - well it was 'FP' for sure, but not really 'S'. What kind of game will No Man's Sky be? Hopefully a great one. 

     

    Good questions. I am all for NOT straight-jacketing games, particularly with the MMO label.

    But don't ask me why .... but it seems that defining genre is a popular past time here.

     

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    Interesting question.

    To explain myself. Example: When I step into the world of TwoWorld 2, Fall Out 3, Skyrim as the most current I consider I stepped into a RPG game where I can mold my character. As some say exploration isn't a part of RPG personaly to me it's what makes a RPG. With explorations comes discovery, discovery's lead to found or new mystery's. Overall a RPG has a certain grade of freedom with your nameless character that might become known in that gameworld.

    I also enjoy Action RPG's like Mass Effect, Star Wars the Old Republic, The Witcher, Dragon Age, Bioshock series. But here you already a somebody and you take jst the role of that person with minimal choices.

    Seems The Witcher is going to be allot more open then ever before but still will lack the character freedom to be who you want. But definitly looking forward to the new Witcher game.

    Can't really consider games like Lara Croft, Batman, Max Payne and sorts to be RPG. They are atleast to me just action games. Sure there is some character developement. We alway's had that in those games it's just more fleshed out due to technology being able to produce that.

    I might just have certain expectations when it comes to game genre's. I still have fun with games that might not match my excact criteria of game genre.

     

  • EnrifEnrif Member UncommonPosts: 152

    The one and only determiner of a RPG is, in my opinion, Choice.

    Any game where you are on rails, moving from zone to zone, without the choice to go back is not an RPG. 

    As Example, the Uncharted-Series. Its a great game, but you move from zone to zone and you can't go back. You can replay the zone to be better at it or to find stuff. but basicly you only reset the zone and start the Story all over. On the other side you have games like Dark Souls. You can anytime go back to a zone you already visited but its not a replay, because you already altered the Story of the Zone.

    other examples

    Dishonored, DMC, The Last of Us. all this games are not RPGs in my opinion

    Borderlands, Dark Souls, Fable, Final Fantasy are RPGs in my opinion

  • It takes much more than skill improvements to move a game's category from "FPS" to "RPG." Most games have aspects from other types of games, but it really comes down to the game's core design. WarCraft 3 is an RTS and not and RPG even though heroes can level up. Skyrim is still an RPG and not an FPS even though you can shoot people in first person.

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

    For my part as Editor, we're trying to stick to games that actually consider themselves RPGs, officially.  So even though something like Infamous: Second Son has a lot of RPG elements, we won't list it because it's not being considered an RPG.  Same with the recent Batman Games, or even Zelda, which most won't consider an RPG even if Nintendo says it is.

    We're trying to walk a finer line with RPGs than we have with MMOs.

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
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  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    I'm not sure you can classify any games today as RPG.  They have all mixed together into one build.  RPGs used to be about textual dialogue, story, exploring, and turn based combat.   FPS were generally just about killing things.  Now FPS and RPG and combined together to form an interactive movie like experience with character building.  It's not better or worse, but it's easier to get into just like it's easier to watch a movie then read a book.  I like that in games today I don't have to expend much effort to play the game usually since everything has audio dialogue and there is no turn based combat.  On the flip side I think you also lose something that you got form games that were either interactive books or just games of exploration like Dark Souls.  I actually would like there to be more games like Dark Souls.

     

    I think it's safe to say that simpler and less immersive are bad things. Sure some people may prefer them, but I'm of the opinion that not all preferences are created equal. Some people may prefer an easier to get into experience at the cost of a reduced amount of satisfaction and enjoyment, but it IS at that cost. It's kind of like saying Ferrari isn't a better car than a used honda because the Ferrari costs more.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,366
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    It seems that this site was talking about expanding to non-MMO RPG coverage. I figure i will kick it off by discussing RPGs.

    Note the frequent debate here about what is a MMO .. i figure it will be fun to do the same for video game RPGs.

    A skill-based progression element is in many shooters and action adventure including, but not limited to, Call to Juarez, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief, ... and many even have improvable gear (like Tomb Raider, or Splinter Cells).

    Now are these RPGs? Let's the debate begin!

    There is no debate here ... dont confuse role-playing..........with playing a role... They are very different .. None of the games listed are RPGs

         

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