Why is this game considered a failure?

CazNeerg · March 2014

Originally posted by skyline385
Pretty sure SwampDragons' post was sarcasm in reference to complaints about SWTOR not being SWG 2.0

That's an idea. I thought it was a reference to people who expect brand new games to be as content rich at launch as WoW is with a decade of content additions under it's belt.

wilq · March 2014

Well that was my last most anticipated mmo. But game for me was huge failure, first of all crappy engine, small zones, river raid space, ilum was a disaster starting from design of this zone. One + this game had were story quests.

olepi · March 2014

There are two ways to measure failure, or success:

- return on investment, and

- popular acclaim

Return on investment is what counts, not whether the game is making a profit. Say you have $10 million to invest, you invested it in SWTOR, and got back $500 profit. Is that a success? Not really, although the game is "profitable". When BioWare/EA invested the $200 million (or whatever it really was), did they get back a large ROI? Did it meet expectations?

Popular acclaim is more subjective. Some games "have it", and some don't. Everybody wants their game to be a "hit", but SWTOR probably didn't make it. A lot of the press was about how the game is "lifeless", etc, and wondered what they could have spent that much money on. Large scale PvP was a bust, and they should have known that long before releasing it.

My guess is that the return on investment was modest, not what was originally pitched to the investors. And it certainly didn't become a smashing hit.

echolynfan · March 2014

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by CazNeerg It's only considered a failure by two groups of people; those who don't know what the word means, and those whose tinfoil hats are on a little too tight. There are, as you point out, several sources indicating that the game makes lots of money, likely more money than any other western MMO that isn't WoW, with not one shred of evidence, anywhere, which so much as implies that the game is not profitable. The largest segment of the "those who don't know what the word means" crowd appears to be people who can't tell the difference between "failure" and "game we don't like." EDIT: You'll notice, pretty much every attempted explanation in this thread of why the game is a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with success vs. failure, but rather only with things the posters personally dislike about the game.

A game can be a failure even if it makes money - and I always thought SWTOR would make money simply because it's Star Wars. SWTOR spent more money on this MMO than just about every other MMO out there and produced a meh game and THAT'S why it's a failure.

you quoted him to prove his point? you think it's a failure because you personally thought the game was "meh"?

to the OP, i think you got the answer to your question lol

And if you follow that line of reasoning it stands that if you LIKE the game that doesn't mean it's a success either. In reference to those saying people didn't like SWTOR because it wasn't SWG 2.0 - SWG had more in that game at launch than SWTOR does right now. There's no excuse for a AAA MMO to have a lackluster content and performance given the amount of $$ spent producing it.

gervaise1 · March 2014

Originally posted by amber-r
I've been looking around and it seems to be one of the most successful titles currently running.

It sold nearly 3 million copies at full price, peaked at well over 2 million subscribers (something almost no MMO manages to come anywhere near) and since going f2p with optional subscription has been shown to make large amounts of money from both ($139 million from it's cash shop sales alone last year). Added to that EA recently renewed the star wars licence and commented it's very happy with how profitable this game is.

Why is it considered a failure when it's one of the biggest and most successful mmo titles currently running?

simple answer: unfulfilled expectations.

First a few corrections:

highest "through sales" announced: 2.4M.
highest sub number announced 1.7M; highest recurring sub number c. 850k;
and they had budgeted on 1.2M 3 months after that point
EA ex-CFO said c. 7 months after launch that "at some point the game had to make a profit".
EA current CFO said last year that the business model was profitable after reducing staff (implication it wasn't before)
EA have announced falls in sub revenue for the last 3 quarters for which they have given SWTOR as the main or joint reason.

Sources for the above are available - do you have an EA source for $139M? Reason is that $139M would represent a significant % of their cash shop etc. revenue for all their games and it would seem remiss for them not to mention it!

However I believe the reason many consider SWTORs to be a failure is unfulfilled expectations. EA hyped the reason for having a sub - a lot. Huge amounts of awesome content were to be produced etc. Once it became clear that the sub level wasn't there EA shed the team meaning that a lot less content has been released. And once you have unfulfilled expectations ....

My own view is that SWTOR could have been "a success" as a "single player rpg with co-op play with no sub" but "was a failure" as a "sub based mmo". And without a sub it would have sold more copies etc. making more money etc. In other words whether a game is a success is influenced by the criteria you judge it on.

Doushi · March 2014

Personally I dont consider this game a failure, every time I play it, I enjoy it for full extent.

Its usually the butthurt audience who are mad that they didnt make the game way THEY wanted it to be. aka SWG 2.0, so they call it a failure

But servers are still running, new content, and nice amount of players. Also, its nice to board the hate train and be part of something.

baphamet · March 2014

Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by echolynfan Originally posted by CazNeerg It's only considered a failure by two groups of people; those who don't know what the word means, and those whose tinfoil hats are on a little too tight. There are, as you point out, several sources indicating that the game makes lots of money, likely more money than any other western MMO that isn't WoW, with not one shred of evidence, anywhere, which so much as implies that the game is not profitable. The largest segment of the "those who don't know what the word means" crowd appears to be people who can't tell the difference between "failure" and "game we don't like." EDIT: You'll notice, pretty much every attempted explanation in this thread of why the game is a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with success vs. failure, but rather only with things the posters personally dislike about the game.

A game can be a failure even if it makes money - and I always thought SWTOR would make money simply because it's Star Wars. SWTOR spent more money on this MMO than just about every other MMO out there and produced a meh game and THAT'S why it's a failure.

you quoted him to prove his point? you think it's a failure because you personally thought the game was "meh"? to the OP, i think you got the answer to your question lol

And if you follow that line of reasoning it stands that if you LIKE the game that doesn't mean it's a success either. In reference to those saying people didn't like SWTOR because it wasn't SWG 2.0 - SWG had more in that game at launch than SWTOR does right now. There's no excuse for a AAA MMO to have a lackluster content and performance given the amount of $$ spent producing it.

that's correct, i believe GW2 is a successful mmo and i really don't care for it personally.

also, just because you feel that SWTOR should have all the sandbox features a sandbox game had doesn't make it a failure.

its a different kind of game that many people pay for and enjoy.

by the way, i would say SWTOR is more successful than SWG ever was

DamonVile · March 2014

Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by CazNeerg It's only considered a failure by two groups of people; those who don't know what the word means, and those whose tinfoil hats are on a little too tight. There are, as you point out, several sources indicating that the game makes lots of money, likely more money than any other western MMO that isn't WoW, with not one shred of evidence, anywhere, which so much as implies that the game is not profitable. The largest segment of the "those who don't know what the word means" crowd appears to be people who can't tell the difference between "failure" and "game we don't like." EDIT: You'll notice, pretty much every attempted explanation in this thread of why the game is a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with success vs. failure, but rather only with things the posters personally dislike about the game.

A game can be a failure even if it makes money - and I always thought SWTOR would make money simply because it's Star Wars. SWTOR spent more money on this MMO than just about every other MMO out there and produced a meh game and THAT'S why it's a failure.

you quoted him to prove his point? you think it's a failure because you personally thought the game was "meh"?

to the OP, i think you got the answer to your question lol

And if you follow that line of reasoning it stands that if you LIKE the game that doesn't mean it's a success either. In reference to those saying people didn't like SWTOR because it wasn't SWG 2.0 - SWG had more in that game at launch than SWTOR does right now. There's no excuse for a AAA MMO to have a lackluster content and performance given the amount of $$ spent producing it.

Who is saying it's a success because they like it ? You don't seem to be able to put aside you own opinion on the game to judge it's success. This is post number 4? now that you've seemed to follow the logic behind success then used your opinion on the game to "prove" it's not.

It's a pretty simple concept....the game is a success, has a large following of players.....but you don't like it. It's not the end of the world to have an opinion that isn't shared by everyone.

achesoma · March 2014

It's only considered a failure by a vocal and very angry minority of posters on this site. Typically, the term "failure" in mmo speak means "I don't like it."

Since the NGEgeddon of SWG, MMORPG.COM has become the unofficial refuge of bitter SWG vets who can't seem to move on. Therefore, any SW game that's not SWG is a failure in their eyes. Like it or not, SWTOR is doing just fine and not going anywhere.

CazNeerg · March 2014

Originally posted by olepi
There are two ways to measure failure, or success:

- return on investment, and

- popular acclaim

Return on investment is what counts, not whether the game is making a profit. Say you have $10 million to invest, you invested it in SWTOR, and got back $500 profit. Is that a success? Not really, although the game is "profitable". When BioWare/EA invested the $200 million (or whatever it really was), did they get back a large ROI? Did it meet expectations?

Popular acclaim is more subjective. Some games "have it", and some don't. Everybody wants their game to be a "hit", but SWTOR probably didn't make it. A lot of the press was about how the game is "lifeless", etc, and wondered what they could have spent that much money on. Large scale PvP was a bust, and they should have known that long before releasing it.

My guess is that the return on investment was modest, not what was originally pitched to the investors. And it certainly didn't become a smashing hit.

Everything is relative. Did TOR "succeed" at being a WoW level smash hit? Obviously not. Has it attained more success than any other major release that isn't WoW? It's entirely possible, there is no evidence which would suggest it hasn't, and several sources which suggest it has. (Note, I do not say proves, I say suggests.)

As for the "press," it was actually overwhelmingly positive. Look to Metacritic, 68 positive reviews, 5 mixed, zero negative. I'm not making the argument that good press = success, just pointing out that if someone did, that would make TOR extremely successful.

Is it possible, even probable that adjustments in their business model were necessary in order to maintain month to month profitability after subscriber numbers started dropping? Sure. But it doesn't matter how the game makes a profit when considering whether it is successful, only that it does. And EA isn't a company known for propping up "failed" products. If the game weren't profitable, it would have been shut down by now.

ktanner3 · March 2014

Originally posted by echolynfan

A game can be a failure even if it makes money ...

Say that in any business class and you'll be laughed out of the room.

ktanner3 · March 2014

Originally posted by Velocinox
It isn't a failure. It's just not as successful as the expectations were for it. Which considering it was seriously expected to reach WoW levels of success, they were unreasonably high. As long as you're willing to pay the subscription, it's a decent MMO, regardless of the narrow definition some have of an MMO.

This. The expectations were way to high but the game is not even close to being a failure. A failure is a game that shuts down not long after release, not one that is growing with new features and content while making lots of money. That would be like calling Ironman 3 a failure just because it didn't meet expectations.

Loktofeit · March 2014

It isn't considered a failure. The proclamations and 'facts' around here are often rather far removed from reality.

delta9 · March 2014

Originally posted by amber-r
Why is it considered a failure when it's one of the biggest and most successful mmo titles currently running?

Not everyone thinks this, the game is still running and it has a healthy population, so do you think this is a failure?

cheyane · March 2014

It is far from a failure. My family has three subs in this game and I find groups and enjoy the game almost everyday. Don't listen to the ninny goats and drama llamas here.

CazNeerg · March 2014

And seriously, you have to remember what company we are talking about. EA isn't the company that nurses the injured dog back to health, it's the company that shoots the dog in the face if it doesn't fetch quickly enough. Even if we had no other information to go on, the simple fact that the game still exists this long after it's launch means it is profitable.

Kanester · March 2014

I really enjoyed levelling up in SWTOR and the PVP was fun too, The PVP planet was good but to much of a massive zerg on my server that usually resulted in the enemy camping our base (Not fun). What killed the game for me was the shitty main station hub, They should have had a city with a lush open world around it.

Golelorn · March 2014

Originally posted by Blasphim
My belief is that it gets much hate here due to one thing:

It's not SWG 2.0

No, its because it sucks.

Nilden · March 2014

It failed to keep me past the first month.

CazNeerg · March 2014

Originally posted by Golelorn
Originally posted by Blasphim
My belief is that it gets much hate here due to one thing:

It's not SWG 2.0

No, its because it sucks.

Sucks because it's not SWG 2.0?

udon · March 2014

Originally posted by achesoma
It's only considered a failure by a vocal and very angry minority of posters on this site. Typically, the term "failure" in mmo speak means "I don't like it."

Since the NGEgeddon of SWG, MMORPG.COM has become the unofficial refuge of bitter SWG vets who can't seem to move on. Therefore, any SW game that's not SWG is a failure in their eyes. Like it or not, SWTOR is doing just fine and not going anywhere.

There is element of that for sure but I also think SWTOR fell way short of the vision the developers where talking about pre launch. What ever happened to the continual extension of your personal story and learning more about your companions with ongoing quests?

SWTOR isn't a financial failure and the leveling experience in the game really is classic Bioware story telling but the multi player functions of the game leave a lot to be desired and they are not really growing the world in any significant manner which for a MMO is a pretty bizarre thing, They seem to be content to coast off the content they already have and add small easy to monetize features instead.

Thillian · March 2014

Originally posted by Loktofeit
It isn't considered a failure. The proclamations and 'facts' around here are often rather far removed from reality.

Yes, thats why EA removed or made voluntarily leave the entire management team of Bioware shortly after the release.

CazNeerg · March 2014

Originally posted by udon
There is element of that for sure but I also think SWTOR fell way short of the vision the developers where talking about pre launch. What ever happened to the continual extension of your personal story and learning more about your companions with ongoing quests?

SWTOR isn't a financial failure and the leveling experience in the game really is classic Bioware story telling but the multi player functions of the game leave a lot to be desired and they are not really growing the world in any significant manner which for a MMO is a pretty bizarre thing, They seem to be content to coast off the content they already have and add small easy to monetize features instead.

Since launch they've added one planet, two moons,several Ops, a fair number of flashpoints, some new WZs, a handful of events, and Galactic Starfighter. Most of it since adding the free option.

echolynfan · March 2014

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by CazNeerg It's only considered a failure by two groups of people; those who don't know what the word means, and those whose tinfoil hats are on a little too tight. There are, as you point out, several sources indicating that the game makes lots of money, likely more money than any other western MMO that isn't WoW, with not one shred of evidence, anywhere, which so much as implies that the game is not profitable. The largest segment of the "those who don't know what the word means" crowd appears to be people who can't tell the difference between "failure" and "game we don't like." EDIT: You'll notice, pretty much every attempted explanation in this thread of why the game is a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with success vs. failure, but rather only with things the posters personally dislike about the game.

A game can be a failure even if it makes money - and I always thought SWTOR would make money simply because it's Star Wars. SWTOR spent more money on this MMO than just about every other MMO out there and produced a meh game and THAT'S why it's a failure.

you quoted him to prove his point? you think it's a failure because you personally thought the game was "meh"? to the OP, i think you got the answer to your question lol

And if you follow that line of reasoning it stands that if you LIKE the game that doesn't mean it's a success either. In reference to those saying people didn't like SWTOR because it wasn't SWG 2.0 - SWG had more in that game at launch than SWTOR does right now. There's no excuse for a AAA MMO to have a lackluster content and performance given the amount of $$ spent producing it.

that's correct, i believe GW2 is a successful mmo and i really don't care for it personally.

also, just because you feel that SWTOR should have all the sandbox features a sandbox game had doesn't make it a failure.

its a different kind of game that many people pay for and enjoy.

by the way, i would say SWTOR is more successful than SWG ever was

If SOE hadn't screwed up by changing the game in mid stream with the NGE SWG would have been a more successful game than it was. However (and I don't know if you played it) SWG was one of the most interesting and fun MMO's I've ever had the pleasure to play - the game was so far ahead of it's time it's not funny. Jump To Light Speed was the most incredible space combat design and makes SWTOR's look like Asteroids in comparison.

You may think that SWTOR is more successful than SWG but I'll bet you it's not around as long and DEFINITELY won't have emu servers after it's gone.

CazNeerg · March 2014

Originally posted by echolynfan
If SOE hadn't screwed up by changing the game in mid stream with the NGE SWG would have been a more successful game than it was. However (and I don't know if you played it) SWG was one of the most interesting and fun MMO's I've ever had the pleasure to play - the game was so far ahead of it's time it's not funny. Jump To Light Speed was the most incredible space combat design and makes SWTOR's look like Asteroids in comparison.

You may think that SWTOR is more successful than SWG but I'll bet you it's not around as long and DEFINITELY won't have emu servers after it's gone.

You're still treating success like it's a matter of opinion. It isn't. You can declare all day long that SWG is the better game, and that's perfectly fair because "better" is subjective, but TOR will still be the greater success.

To be fair, it's impossible to tell how well SWG would have done if it launched in 2011, with 2011 tech. The market was much smaller when it came out, so it's not really fair to compare it's numbers to TORs, it was fishing in a much smaller pond. That said, when it launched it was a fundamentally unfinished game (great potential, but mostly unrealized) and the dev team seemed more interested in changing fundamental design elements in order to chase new players than they were in fixing the bugs in the content they already had.

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