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Why do MMO gamers refer being level capped as "endgame"?

RhinotonesRhinotones Member UncommonPosts: 250

Endgame - "The final stage of a game such as chess or bridge, when few pieces or cards remain".

 

I've never been a fan of the usage of "endgame" in MMO's.

What's typically referred to as endgame in MMO's is actualy where the main body of the gameplay lays, not the final chapter or last moves of the game.

Middlegame (or main body/meat of the game) is more accurate IMO.

 

The Opening = Levelling ones character/learning the games mechanics

Middlegame = Undertaking level cap content

Endgame = There is no real endgame, as long as new content is being produced, you're just in the middlegame.

or

Endgame = When you're over playing the game anymore... /endgame

 

Any other thoughts on this, please share?

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Comments

  • versulasversulas Member UncommonPosts: 288

    I think you provided the answer. MMO's aren't inherently supposed to end. If there isn't an ending, why call it the "middlegame"?

    However, you can come to the end of a book, even though it isn't the last book in a series, and I think that position you retain while waiting for new content is what breeds that sort of thinking. You are at the end of your character's story arc/world's lore- as is written so far.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    Endgame - "The final stage of a game such as chess or bridge, when few pieces or cards remain".

     I've never been a fan of the usage of "endgame" in MMO's.

    What's typically referred to as endgame in MMO's is actualy where the main body of the gameplay lays, not the final chapter or last moves of the game.

    Middlegame (or main body/meat of the game) is more accurate IMO. 

    The Opening = Levelling ones character/learning the games mechanics

    Middlegame = Undertaking level cap content

    Endgame = There is no real endgame, as long as new content is being produced, you're just in the middlegame.

    or

    Endgame = When you're over playing the game anymore... /endgame 

    Any other thoughts on this, please share?

    Main body?  The main body is the leveling content in most games, not the max level content.  The amount of max level content in most MMOs is almost microscopic, it's just designed to be repeated endlessly to get better gear.  Spending several hundred hours repeating five to ten hours of content is not "more content" than spending a hundred hours doing a hundred hours of content to reach max level in the first place, it's just an indicator that what the player in question really needs is a hamster wheel simulator.

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  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985

    I don't see why the possibility that a little new content might come out next month would be relevant to whether I consider myself to have reached the end of the game now.  When you get to the point that there's nothing new to discover, and specifically new things that you will want to interact with, not just parts of the map you haven't seen, that's the de facto end of the game regardless of whether you keep playing or new content appears later.

    In single player games there is often a literal end of the game followed by a goalless freeplay mode which is similar in content to the endgame of an MMO.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,043

    Think of it more in terms of seasons in a sport.

     

    How many people will only watch the super bowl or finals in base ball or the play offs in hockey? With an MMO throw in an expansion and a new level cap and it's a new season. Sure, you could spend months getting the perfect armor for level 10 when level 50 is cap. You could do it again at 15, then at 20. How many people will though if they have a solid temporary number like 50 as 'end game'?

     

    My question would be, why the pigeon hole?

    It's an MMO. Be an Archer. Forever.

     

    EVE Online, I am an Amarr frigate pilot today and a Gallente Battle Ship pilot tomorrow. SWG I was a Medic this month, a tailor the next and a Medic again the month after that. I could regrind it and allocate the points. That's the way it should be.

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez Member UncommonPosts: 381

    Because of WoW factor?

    It seems that WoW set the standard.

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,043
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Because of WoW factor?

    It seems that WoW set the standard.

    For a long time they did. I don't think they do so much now.

    I'd give FF14 credit for that. While I stopped playing, you don't see me throwing them under the buss every chance I get. They took and old and tattered book, they dusted it off and the remade it. They set a realistic goal and the ran with it. It seems I wasn't part of the new and shiny FF14 but I do respect their resolve.

     

    Companies need to look to SE for their MMO goal. Not Blizzard. I don't even think Blizzard uses WoW as the standard they will build another MMO on. They know that era is over.

  • Iceman8235Iceman8235 Member UncommonPosts: 205
    pointless post.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    Endgame - "The final stage of a game such as chess or bridge, when few pieces or cards remain".

     

    I've never been a fan of the usage of "endgame" in MMO's.

    What's typically referred to as endgame in MMO's is actualy where the main body of the gameplay lays, not the final chapter or last moves of the game.

    Middlegame (or main body/meat of the game) is more accurate IMO.

     

    The Opening = Levelling ones character/learning the games mechanics

    Middlegame = Undertaking level cap content

    Endgame = There is no real endgame, as long as new content is being produced, you're just in the middlegame.

    or

    Endgame = When you're over playing the game anymore... /endgame

     

    Any other thoughts on this, please share?

    because MMOs are broken into two parts.

     

    Leveling part

    After leveling part.

     

    In most MMO with levels, they have a fixed level cap or some kind of soft cap.  at that point, the level's form of progression comes to an end, or isnt as valued as it once was. So that again comes to an End. Hence the term Endgame. Aka the content meant for level cap.

     

    Some games have no levels in this method, so the Endgame starts early.

    Some games now days are allowing ways to skip to endgame content, like in WvW of GW2. Level skip to max level for WvW and SPvP. Skips right into the endgame content.

    Level content is always temporary.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,203
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    Endgame - "The final stage of a game such as chess or bridge, when few pieces or cards remain".

     

    I've never been a fan of the usage of "endgame" in MMO's.

    What's typically referred to as endgame in MMO's is actualy where the main body of the gameplay lays, not the final chapter or last moves of the game.

    Middlegame (or main body/meat of the game) is more accurate IMO.

     

    The Opening = Levelling ones character/learning the games mechanics

    Middlegame = Undertaking level cap content

    Endgame = There is no real endgame, as long as new content is being produced, you're just in the middlegame.

    or

    Endgame = When you're over playing the game anymore... /endgame

     

    Any other thoughts on this, please share?

    I couldn't agree more.  I'm not fooled by the content so many people seem to enjoy at "endgame", which is simply a few repeatable areas with shinies to attract the simple-minded.  It's like the boredom of "dailies" x 1000.

  • kaeljaerenkaeljaeren Member UncommonPosts: 20

    To me, END GAME is exactly that for me. I have never in my life played "End Game" longer than a few weeks. My longest End Game was in a WoW expansion, but I just ran through the same raid over and over again, got my gear, then they made a new one and you had to get gear in that so when they make a new one you can get gear in that... What if I just stop playing? Then I win forever. 

    Dota/HoN/Dota 2 is the only game that have had any sticking power for me, since then gearing up is rewarding and makes a difference. 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Because of WoW factor?It seems that WoW set the standard.

     

    No, WOW wasn't the first MMO, nor did it set this standard. I'd attribute it more to Lineage 1, DAOC, or Lineage 2 where a player had to be max or near max level to be competitive in the PvP based end game content.

    ESO is doing it again, while you can RvR below 50, once a large segment of the player base reaches 50 and perfect their builds and gear anyone who isn't at endgame will simply be fodder when matched up against a"true" 50.

    Heck, endlessly repeating a few raids or dailies for gear really is "end game" for me, if that's all there is to do, it's time to stop playing and find a new game.

    Or go back to EVE, because while there are reasons to stop playing, reaching end game isn't one of them since it really doesn't exist there.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Originally posted by kaeljaeren

    To me, END GAME is exactly that for me. I have never in my life played "End Game" longer than a few weeks. My longest End Game was in a WoW expansion, but I just ran through the same raid over and over again, got my gear, then they made a new one and you had to get gear in that so when they make a new one you can get gear in that... What if I just stop playing? Then I win forever. 

    Dota/HoN/Dota 2 is the only game that have had any sticking power for me, since then gearing up is rewarding and makes a difference. 

    So, you never played old AV in Vanilla WoW? that was endgame.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574

    The term didn't exist in Ultima Online that I recall.  Maybe it's because they had no levels and there was always something to do with PvPers attacking you and stealing your equipment.

    Everquest was the first time I heard endgame, but it wasn't there until a long time after the game came out.  The game took a long time to level.  Most people didn't reach max level for a long long time and raids didn't exist yet.  The people who did sink tuns of hours in to get to max level had nothing to do and that's where endgame comes from I believe.  All they could really do was farm for gold and try to kill mobs that weren't intended to be killed by forming large groups.  When the developers saw players doing these things and reaching max level they started making more challenging raid content to appease them.  That raid content was the basis for World of Warcarfts Endgame content.  I never cared for endgame content myself.  I figure if people don't like the leveling process and just want to compete in PvP or raids then developers shouldn't be adding levels at all.  It seems more and more people are paying to avoid having to level now.  That points to most people not enjoying the leveling process.  I don't even enjoy the leveling process anymore because it is to linear and story driven.  That is usually my favorite part of RPGs.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    Just because the same word is used in another context as well doesnt mean it has to refer to the exact same thing.

    MMOs arent like chess. You dont have an army at the beginning and keep losing your pieces to the opponent, and vice versa.

    Endgame is the "real" game in MMOs. In WoW, I've been told, it was leveling to maxlevel quickly and then you kept playing the real game - called "endgame". It was the same in Vanguard, except in Vanguard you could really enjoy the time before that point.

     

  • TorgrimTorgrim Member CommonPosts: 2,088
    I would not call it endgame It should be called grindgame.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191
    With a few exceptions(games that adjust your level) there is a major difference between still leveling and being at cap. The difference is the effect leveling has on a lot of things. For example items that get devalued by leveling. Why search for the epic/legendary weapon if a few levels later you get a much better basic weapon? Once a player reached the cap this devalueing has an end or is at least limited to new tiers of items(but then the old equipment does still help to get the new one).
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Well, technically, the max level content IS the end game content. If WoW decided to shut down right now, not release anything else, then the last raid is the end game PvE content.

     

    The fact that the content evolves over time doesn't mean that there isn't an "End" to the game. Yes, these games continue indefinitely, but there is end game. I feel the same way about people who argue that there isn't end game. If that was the case, there would be no beginning and or no end. Ragnaros, Illidan, Lich King, Deathwing, Garrosh. All end game content. This is where the story ends. The fact that people replay that story means nothing. It doesn't progress the story. The fact that there's additional progression available is what maintains subscribers. It's only variable difficulty at that point. It's like saying that Call of Duty has no end game because I can complete it on Hard Mode, oh, and there's also multiplayer. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 711

    The repetitive nature of "the end-game" is definitely an "end-game" for me.  Since I don't have the time, nor the desire, to raid every day; I'll rarely participate.  I like PVP, but eventually it gets dull and repetitive with the current games that have PVP.  So, what next, the gear grind?  Been there, done that, got the epic.

    I wish we'd stop with the end-game and start making games no level cap and dynamically generated content.

    Don't get me started on "story driven games".  While fun, once you finish the story, then what?  Roll another character?  Gear grind?  Raid?  Or wait until the story is updated with more story?

    If I want a decent story for my character, I'll play a single player RPG.

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077

    I don't like level caps as much as I don't like gear being the end all part of an expansion.

     

    Do like timesinks that can be enjoyed in small groups, with large groups for other events...but NOT to be forced to do either, if I just want to explore while listening to music.

     

    Some people want the game to be always action filled; while others, like myself, want to relax in a game.

     

    If I want the boot camp and service track in gaming, I'll join the USMC and earn a paycheck via that means. In a game that's about entertainment, I see entertainment, not another job.

     

    So for end-game, need interesting timesinks not more pewpewpew for gear (which gets beyond boring after the 2nd year).

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    "End Game" is your final gambit in games like Chess.  So maybe that's it.  The Raid Treadmill is your final gambit in a theme park MMORPG.  If you manage to kill the final boss before new raid content or an expansion comes out, your "End Game" was successful, otherwise it was a failure.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    "End Game" is your final gambit in games like Chess.  So maybe that's it.  The Raid Treadmill is your final gambit in a theme park MMORPG.  If you manage to kill the final boss before new raid content or an expansion comes out, your "End Game" was successful, otherwise it was a failure.

     

    End-game would be more like EvE 2.0 the PvE space sim. Where exploration and trading IS the entire game, that has no ending. Tack on something like decay and random events (invasions), the build/destroy/build cycle is the continuity and with many people trying to build their Fort Knox in the process, all ensures people will remain busy.

     

    Like to open a ship body shop to paint rally strips and other custom details (like corp insignias), for a neat past time. Can see my sis grow hydroponic gardens in space. My other sis mining the solar systems for every spec of rare ore known, too.

     

    Bah, forget it, PvPers will just destroy everything with their sociopathic ways so people can just relax playing games. -_-

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Because of WoW factor?

    It seems that WoW set the standard.

     

    No, WOW wasn't the first MMO, nor did it set this standard. I'd attribute it more to Lineage 1, DAOC, or Lineage 2 where a player had to be max or near max level to be competitive in the PvP based end game content.

     

    ESO is doing it again, while you can RvR below 50, once a large segment of the player base reaches 50 and perfect their builds and gear anyone who isn't at endgame will simply be fodder when matched up against a"true" 50.

     

    Heck, endlessly repeating a few raids or dailies for gear really is "end game" for me, if that's all there is to do, it's time to stop playing and find a new game.

     

    Or go back to EVE, because while there are reasons to stop playing, reaching end game isn't one of them since it really doesn't exist there.

    By "WoW set the standard", I meant WoW is the most successful mmorpg with endgame as its main feature. You know, others can only follow.

  • VicDynamoVicDynamo Member Posts: 234
    The original term, coined by Ralph Koster back when he was lead dev on Ultima Online, was Elder Game i.e., the stuff you do when your character is fully mature.
  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne Member UncommonPosts: 1,549
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Because of WoW factor?

    It seems that WoW set the standard.

     

    No, WOW wasn't the first MMO, nor did it set this standard. I'd attribute it more to Lineage 1, DAOC, or Lineage 2 where a player had to be max or near max level to be competitive in the PvP based end game content.

     

    ESO is doing it again, while you can RvR below 50, once a large segment of the player base reaches 50 and perfect their builds and gear anyone who isn't at endgame will simply be fodder when matched up against a"true" 50.

     

    Heck, endlessly repeating a few raids or dailies for gear really is "end game" for me, if that's all there is to do, it's time to stop playing and find a new game.

     

    Or go back to EVE, because while there are reasons to stop playing, reaching end game isn't one of them since it really doesn't exist there.

     

    I totally agree with this - particularly the bit about Eve Online. The 'end game' in Eve Online does not exist for several reasons:

     

    1) it would take 26 years to get every skill - and even then there would be even more to acquire.

     

    2) Even if you had every skill, you would not have reached the 'end game' because the game's content is determined by player actions - which are ongoing, chaotic, dynamic, sometimes predictable and sometimes not.

     

    3) What keeps people playing Eve Online for 10 years or more are the relationships that players have with other players. Some conversations I have overheard have been extremely personal - stuff you might not want to disclose to some members of your own family or friends.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,983
    I live on Middle Earth.  This subject is silly.


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