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No healing

HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
With all the talk of trinity and no trinity and the effects on groups (as in working together or zerg) what about no combat healing.  Think about books not many have healers in combat.  Most plan, cc, trade aggro, prioritize targets.  Would this working in mmo's and has it been tried.

Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Well, many MMOers assume that managing your HP during combat instead of having constant heals would be less fun but I honestly think both ways would work equally good if they are made right.

    In fact some games shouldn't have healing if the devs making them were following the lore, You don't actually see Luke Skywalker stopping up in combat to heal Han Solo in any movie after all.

    I think it would work excellent, particularly in a historic or modern MMO. There are plenty of pen and paper RPGs without healing after all and they are as fun as the P&P that have healing. However do these system usually have a somewhat more complex combat system so you would probably have to have active dodge and parry or something similar for it to actually be fun. And you should let people autoheal as soon as they leave combat so you wouldn't slow down the action.

    I can't think of any fantasy MMO without healing though even though it is common in single player games. But just because no-one tried something before does not mean it is a bad idea, even if you have to work out a new combat system. Just taking EQ or Wow and remove the healing would make a terrible game.

  • DerrosDerros Member UncommonPosts: 1,216

    Well I dont think many books have the main characters mowing down dozens and hundreds of enemies with impunity either, unless they're Mary-Sue characters like Drizzt and Co.  

     

    I think a MMO with no or little healing would have to deemphisize combat quite a bit.  

  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Member RarePosts: 1,234

    I feel like having healing around makes everything else cc, dodge, target priority, all the more valuable. Especially from a pvp perspective, but not only that but from a fight design perspective. Yes today we have scaling, but even with scaling a zerg fest is insta win - see Defiance - massive zerg battles in which you can basically close your eyes, run around in a circle and win everytime.

     

    Now if your talking about making it more like Diablo 3 - no combat healing, but other affective methods, then you might have a valid argument, because D3 is addictingly fun and with the latest patch it just got better. No combat healing, yet decent healing and enough to keep you in the fights and make the fights challenging. - No possibility for zerging helps that tremendously though.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock

    I feel like having healing around makes everything else cc, dodge, target priority, all the more valuable. Especially from a pvp perspective, but not only that but from a fight design perspective. Yes today we have scaling, but even with scaling a zerg fest is insta win - see Defiance - massive zerg battles in which you can basically close your eyes, run around in a circle and win everytime.

    Now if your talking about making it more like Diablo 3 - no combat healing, but other affective methods, then you might have a valid argument, because D3 is addictingly fun and with the latest patch it just got better. No combat healing, yet decent healing and enough to keep you in the fights and make the fights challenging. - No possibility for zerging helps that tremendously though.

    2 systems:

    1. You have 200 HP and a healer, the healer has to keep you healed.

    2. You have 200 HP and have to dodge, parry, run or whatever that makes you survive.

    What makes you think system 2 would have more zerging then system 1? Of course to make system 2 interesting you need to add group mechanics to it, like giving you a buff or bonus when you work together with someone else. 

    Say that you soloparry, that should not be as effective as if you make a shieldwall together with a few more players. 

    When you play pen and paper RPGs without healing the right group is even more important than in games like D&D, the players in any multiplayer game (P&P or digital) should have to work together to overcome hard opponents. Players in armor needs to look out for the weaker ones even if the weaker player is your sniper or a thief.

    I think that a historical game with knights for example would be fun, seen the knights charging in the beginning of the movie "Kingdom of heaven only good scene in the movie)? Something co-ordinated like that would be really fun and should hurt plenty of the players could pull it off.

    But as I said, the key is group dynamics. A MMO would more or less have to invent a completely new combat system to pull the whole thing off. Or translate a good pen and paper system, like Iron heroes (D&D with no healings and very little magic), Call of Cthulhu (classic mind you, not the lame D20) or maybe Star wars -Edge of the empire to mention a few.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock

    I feel like having healing around makes everything else cc, dodge, target priority, all the more valuable. Especially from a pvp perspective, but not only that but from a fight design perspective. Yes today we have scaling, but even with scaling a zerg fest is insta win - see Defiance - massive zerg battles in which you can basically close your eyes, run around in a circle and win everytime.

    Now if your talking about making it more like Diablo 3 - no combat healing, but other affective methods, then you might have a valid argument, because D3 is addictingly fun and with the latest patch it just got better. No combat healing, yet decent healing and enough to keep you in the fights and make the fights challenging. - No possibility for zerging helps that tremendously though.

    2 systems:

    1. You have 200 HP and a healer, the healer has to keep you healed.

    2. You have 200 HP and have to dodge, parry, run or whatever that makes you survive.

    What makes you think system 2 would have more zerging then system 1? Of course to make system 2 interesting you need to add group mechanics to it, like giving you a buff or bonus when you work together with someone else. 

    Say that you soloparry, that should not be as effective as if you make a shieldwall together with a few more players.  I'm following you..

    When you play pen and paper RPGs without healing the right group is even more important than in games like D&D, the players in any multiplayer game (P&P or digital) should have to work together to overcome hard opponents. Players in armor needs to look out for the weaker ones even if the weaker player is your sniper or a thief. Agreed.. this is when CC, buffs and debuffs can really shine.. Plus when I played AD&D, you were limited in healing.. you couldn't just sit back and chain cast heals all fight long..

    I think that a historical game with knights for example would be fun, seen the knights charging in the beginning of the movie "Kingdom of heaven only good scene in the movie)? Something co-ordinated like that would be really fun and should hurt plenty of the players could pull it off.

    But as I said, the key is group dynamics. A MMO would more or less have to invent a completely new combat system to pull the whole thing off. Or translate a good pen and paper system, like Iron heroes (D&D with no healings and very little magic), Call of Cthulhu (classic mind you, not the lame D20) or maybe Star wars -Edge of the empire to mention a few.  EQ2 tried to do something like this with heroic moments.. but that epically FAILED..

         I would like to see more group dynamics similar to EQ, but tweaked.. I want to stay away anything that plays like GW2..  I wish I could go back in time, and make EQ's trash mobs soloable, yet promote the role group dynamic.. I miss playing my druid in EQ where I was the groups primary healer, but still took care of snaring, dotting and CC if necessary...  OH and fun stuff like porting, and evac'ing when a fight goes bad.. LOL

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    BUT , YES .. op.. I might be open to a system where healing is self bandage, and if you fall in combat, people can revive you like in GW2..  It would make other roles and strategies more important
  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Member RarePosts: 1,234
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock

    I feel like having healing around makes everything else cc, dodge, target priority, all the more valuable. Especially from a pvp perspective, but not only that but from a fight design perspective. Yes today we have scaling, but even with scaling a zerg fest is insta win - see Defiance - massive zerg battles in which you can basically close your eyes, run around in a circle and win everytime.

    Now if your talking about making it more like Diablo 3 - no combat healing, but other affective methods, then you might have a valid argument, because D3 is addictingly fun and with the latest patch it just got better. No combat healing, yet decent healing and enough to keep you in the fights and make the fights challenging. - No possibility for zerging helps that tremendously though.

    2 systems:

    1. You have 200 HP and a healer, the healer has to keep you healed.

    2. You have 200 HP and have to dodge, parry, run or whatever that makes you survive.

    What makes you think system 2 would have more zerging then system 1? Of course to make system 2 interesting you need to add group mechanics to it, like giving you a buff or bonus when you work together with someone else. 

    Say that you soloparry, that should not be as effective as if you make a shieldwall together with a few more players. 

    When you play pen and paper RPGs without healing the right group is even more important than in games like D&D, the players in any multiplayer game (P&P or digital) should have to work together to overcome hard opponents. Players in armor needs to look out for the weaker ones even if the weaker player is your sniper or a thief.

    I think that a historical game with knights for example would be fun, seen the knights charging in the beginning of the movie "Kingdom of heaven only good scene in the movie)? Something co-ordinated like that would be really fun and should hurt plenty of the players could pull it off.

    But as I said, the key is group dynamics. A MMO would more or less have to invent a completely new combat system to pull the whole thing off. Or translate a good pen and paper system, like Iron heroes (D&D with no healings and very little magic), Call of Cthulhu (classic mind you, not the lame D20) or maybe Star wars -Edge of the empire to mention a few.

    Personally I like system #1 combined with system #2 which we have in place with a few up and comers, GW2 does not count because healing is irrelevant.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Content would have to change but I do not think combat as in amount would have to. Put in ESO idea where all can sneak. There would be no solo bull rushing groups but careful use of skills could allow a player to fight more mobs at once. You just can not fight on autopilot mindlessly thrashing like most games today. Gw2 with self heals, Wow with heals and almost invulnerability outside of high level instances, etc. These make players unstoppable killing machines. Not as fun or thrilling when a simple group of goblins could kill you if you are not careful. The power would be in the skill of the player picking targets and using skills. More like real life.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by Horusra
    With all the talk of trinity and no trinity and the effects on groups (as in working together or zerg) what about no combat healing.  Think about books not many have healers in combat.  Most plan, cc, trade aggro, prioritize targets.  Would this working in mmo's and has it been tried.

    Not sure if I am reading you correctly but City of Heroes you could run groups without healers.  The buff and debuff classes were at least a powerful as healers if not more.

    Read this:

    http://www.tremblinghand.net/2012/09/11-things-mmos-can-learn-from-city-of.html#!/2012/09/11-things-mmos-can-learn-from-city-of.html

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,090
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock

    I feel like having healing around makes everything else cc, dodge, target priority, all the more valuable.

    That is absurd on its face.  You cannot simultaneously make everything more valuable.

    -----

    To take stereotypical MMORPG game mechanics and simply remove healers won't work.  Rather, you have to design a game around not having healing.  Players will need other ways to mitigate damage, such as by not getting hit in the first place.  That doesn't work in a game where you can't dodge attacks.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Member CommonPosts: 485

    GW2 has very limited healing.. So there you go.

    I am telling you GW2 is the answer to 99% of design gripes because they tried to play 'opposite.' Of course lots of people don't like GW2 - and that's fine. But its an indication all these easy design changes won't help.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock

    Now if your talking about making it more like Diablo 3 - no combat healing, but other affective methods, then you might have a valid argument, because D3 is addictingly fun and with the latest patch it just got better. No combat healing, yet decent healing and enough to keep you in the fights and make the fights challenging. - No possibility for zerging helps that tremendously though.

    Good point. D3 combat is a good model to consider, particularly with a good difficulty slider, and many combination of elite powers.

    BTW, the combat itself is always good. The new patch solves the itemization and AH problems, and also add unlimited progression.

     

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