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In MMOS, people speak different things with mouth and wallets

maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511

After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

 

 



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  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Member Posts: 906
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

     

     

    Are you tracking people from forums to games?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I'm pretty certain they don't make sandboxes because people will take the path of least resistance.  They see that they can play an MMO without having to put much effort, thought, or interaction they will gravitate towards that.  They see a game with an auction house, instances, and GPS to show them where to go they will gravitate towards that.  The funny thing is most people say time isn't important, but obviously it is very important or people would be willing to spend more time in game.  The few people who would like to spend a lot of time in game and would like the challenge of figuring things out for themselves are out of luck.  Cash shop is probably the biggest time saver and what most diminishes someone sacrificing their valuable time in game.  The point is with so many easy games that don't require much time or thought out there not many people will participate in one that requires time, effort, and thought, working with others, and accepting the downside of having to interact with others.
  • KuviskiKuviski Member UncommonPosts: 215

    I think its about what people expect to find in a game of a certain type.

     

    Say you're looking to play game you know is a WoW clone. I'll leave the arguments on the term "clone" out of this because I think everyone will get what I mean (since Rift was already mentioned). A player looking to play a game like this, most of the time, expects to be handheld.

     

     

    You, as a developer, offer one type of convenience to a player in a game that already is very similar to another game with a lot of these conveniences, and soon they will expect to have it all.

     

    People might say they want a sandbox-ish game, but then that game needs to be designed differently from the ground up and stand out as a different type of an entity - it can't be a convenience-stripped version of a type of game the player is already used to - in a game like this they're too used to all those little conveniences.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    Don't worry ... devs know their audience, and i doubt convenience features are going away any time soon.

    In addition, i don't think what the OP says is true. It is just that forums' population is skewed and not representative to the audience devs are catering too. That is very common. You go to the star trek forums and their opinions are probably not representative of those who watched the star trek movies.

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    Actually reading is both a test of being able to follow directions and having patience.  Something most people don't have today.  I doubt most people could understand the concept of North, South, East, and West.  World of Warcraft is one of the easier games and even in that game many people were shouting where is this and where is that.  This is before they had a GPS in the game.

    For some people like to believe the game they are playing these days is challenging and what they are concentrating on is the challenging part of the game (combat).  The truth is even if the combat is challenging it's not.  This is because you don't lose anything when you die.  You can just keep bashing away at something until you win.  Before you jump in and say that death penalty is just a tedious anoyance that wastes time I've already explained in depth why this is not the case.  It's because if you suck at playing the game you can't progress.  If you can't win more than you lose in combat you can't move forward.  That means combat is not quite as easy as you make it out to be.  Just like reading a quests text and actually following directions properly isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

  • DrakynnDrakynn Member Posts: 2,030

    Your Title doesn't just apply to MMOs but gaming in general.There is often a large outcry about all sorts of stuff but then the game the bitching is about goes on to break records in sales.

    But you also gotta realize that people do put their money where there mouth is but they are a vocal minority whose abstinence means little in the larger scheme,because he average gamer doesn't go to forums or read comment sections and doesn't care about the things discussed they are just after their next game.

    TLDR : Your attributing a vocal group in these forums to a Majority int he gaming community as a whole.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    Actually reading is both a test of being able to follow directions and having patience.  Something most people don't have today.  I doubt most people could understand the concept of North, South, East, and West.  World of Warcraft is one of the easier games and even in that game many people were shouting where is this and where is that.  This is before they had a GPS in the game.

     

    You are confused between a "challenge" and something tedious that people don't want to do. I used to graph maps on grid paper for might and magic. I don't think following direction is challenging .. but i think it is tedious and not what i want to do in a game.

    Sure i can spend 15 min looking for something, but why should i if i can just shout to ask where it is? You are confused between inability to do so, and unwillingness to do so.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    Actually reading is both a test of being able to follow directions and having patience.  Something most people don't have today.  I doubt most people could understand the concept of North, South, East, and West.  World of Warcraft is one of the easier games and even in that game many people were shouting where is this and where is that.  This is before they had a GPS in the game.

    For some people like to believe the game they are playing these days is challenging and what they are concentrating on is the challenging part of the game (combat).  The truth is even if the combat is challenging it's not.  This is because you don't lose anything when you die.  You can just keep bashing away at something until you win.  Before you jump in and say that death penalty is just a tedious anoyance that wastes time I've already explained in depth why this is not the case.  It's because if you suck at playing the game you can't progress.  If you can't win more than you lose in combat you can't move forward.  That means combat is not quite as easy as you make it out to be.  Just like reading a quests text and actually following directions properly isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

    If it makes you feel special; sure, reading and following directions is a very valuable skill. image You go ahead and look down on the people who can't be bothered. Call them stupid in the forums.

    Death penalty is just a tedious time waster because it doesn't contribute to challenge. Harsh death penalty is a punishment. The actual challenge is the task you must master.

    This stereotype that you can succeed without doing anything is false. And even if there was such a game, death penalty wouldn't magically make the game challenging. An easy game is easy with or without a death penalty.

    As a more tangible example, people tend to turn toward easier content (lower level) when threatened with a harsh death penalty, because people are cowards. Playing easy content is not challenging.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

     

     

    Are you tracking people from forums to games?

     

    No, and i know the average forum user is different from the average mmo player. However, i already saw "reviews" in this forum made by people that claims to seek sandboxiness and chalenge that sounds like they "ate and disliked".

     

     



  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    I am not talking about menial tasks (nowhere in my post this can be read), but about core features. As examples i will put L2 class changes and AA trade packs.

    In L2, to change your class to another (superior), you had to make a big epic quest that took several days. As time passed, people start complaining and the quest was gradually reduced until the stage where people could simply BUY the class change with ingame currency.

    In AA, the trade packs you carry can be dropped and taken by another characters, that can sell it and earn the full price. There is a change in Korea (fortunately not implemented yet in Russia) that makes the seller earns only 60% and the original crafter 40%.

    These are only 2 examples about what i am saying, not "menial tasks" but core features with deep influences in all the gameplay and "metagame".

     

     

     



  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
     

    I am not talking about menial tasks (nowhere in my post this can be read), but about core features. As examples i will put L2 class changes and AA trade packs.

    In L2, to change your class to another (superior), you had to make a big epic quest that took several days. As time passed, people start complaining and the quest was gradually reduced until the stage where people could simply BUY the class change with ingame currency.

    In AA, the trade packs you carry can be dropped and taken by another characters, that can sell it and earn the full price. There is a change in Korea (fortunately not implemented yet in Russia) that makes the seller earns only 60% and the original crafter 40%.

    These are only 2 examples about what i am saying, not "menial tasks" but core features with deep influences in all the gameplay and "metagame".

      

    In this particular case, it may be cut too much. But what about just cutting out the search and walking part that people don't like, and replace it with a series of challenging boss fights?

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    Actually reading is both a test of being able to follow directions and having patience.  Something most people don't have today.  I doubt most people could understand the concept of North, South, East, and West.  World of Warcraft is one of the easier games and even in that game many people were shouting where is this and where is that.  This is before they had a GPS in the game.

     

    You are confused between a "challenge" and something tedious that people don't want to do. I used to graph maps on grid paper for might and magic. I don't think following direction is challenging .. but i think it is tedious and not what i want to do in a game.

    Sure i can spend 15 min looking for something, but why should i if i can just shout to ask where it is? You are confused between inability to do so, and unwillingness to do so.

     

    I don't believe that I am confused about this.  People say that it is just a waste of time, but then when they are faced with doing in they can't in most cases.  I guess the point is if it's taking you 15 minutes to find it then you aren't following the instructions very well.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I don't believe that I am confused about this.  People say that it is just a waste of time, but then when they are faced with doing in they can't in most cases.  I guess the point is if it's taking you 15 minutes to find it then you aren't following the instructions very well.

    Who can't? I doubt you have actual data on this. Asking for a location in chat is not a sign of inability. Push come to shove, people will do it .. but why should they when it is no fun for them, and the solution is easy to find?

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    Any monkey can follow a GPS.  Not everyone can navigate without one.  Send someone to sea and tell them to navigate by the stars.  Most people wouldn't be able to do it.  This is not at all a "menial task".  It is one that requires some actual thinking.  Something most people don't want to do in game.

    What is the content that people are interested in?  The content is following GPS like a mindless zombie clicking on Exclamation marks or doing the same dungeon over and over again to get the right loot?

    For those who keep saying death penalty isn't a challenge, but continuously repeating the same task with no consequence for failing is some great and challenging feat I don't know what to say to you.  It's obvious that being able to repeatedly die with no death penalty until you get lucky and win is not a real challenge at all.  Having to "execute" at a "high level" of "success" in "combat" is.

    I find it disheartening that people want to belittle the things they are probably not able to accomplish in games so that they can disregard them as menial tasks.  The truth is people just don't want any real challenge.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    What is the content that people are interested in?  The content is following GPS like a mindless zombie clicking on Exclamation marks or doing the same dungeon over and over again to get the right loot?

    Fun challenging combat without the inconvenience of spending time finding the mobs to kill.

    That is why Diablo is so popular, and that is why MMOs are increasingly like ARPGs. Look at WoW dungeons. Back in WOTLK, there are even dungeons with no dungeons and trash .. and just jump into boss combat.

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I don't believe that I am confused about this.  People say that it is just a waste of time, but then when they are faced with doing in they can't in most cases.  I guess the point is if it's taking you 15 minutes to find it then you aren't following the instructions very well.

    Who can't? I doubt you have actual data on this. Asking for a location in chat is not a sign of inability. Push come to shove, people will do it .. but why should they when it is no fun for them, and the solution is easy to find?

     

    Why do I need proof.  I was there during the days of Ultima Online, Everquest, and the start of World of Warcraft.  In Everquest I don't think I even knew quests existed.  I know they were too challenging for me in most cases.  I was pretty amazed by people who were able to complete them.  It required great patience and the ability to follow directions. 

    In World of Warcraft the quest were fairly easy to follow, but most people could not do complete them without someone to help them out.  I know as I played the game a large amount.  Without the GPS I doubt most people would say leveling is trivial.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27

     

    Why do I need proof.  I was there during the days of Ultima Online, Everquest, and the start of World of Warcraft.  In Everquest I don't think I even knew quests existed.  I know they were too challenging for me in most cases.  I was pretty amazed by people who were able to complete them.  It required great patience and the ability to follow directions. 

    Because you are making a claim. It is your opinion that people cannot follow directions. You have no data or evidence to support that.

    And patience .. really .. in games? I will first to admit that i have no patience in games, and that is my preference. Why do i need to waste any time waiting in the middle of my entertainment?

     

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,355

    I'm torn between two minds, some convenience features I certainly enjoy and appreciate, and others I'd rather not see.

    I recall going back to play DAOC on a freeshard, and when doing quests it was a bit inconvenient because once you accepted and completed it, you had to remember where the original quest giver was as it didn't guide you back.

    Was this more challenging, I suppose so, but at times it was just more annoying trying to wander around trying to figure out where to return something.

    Yet I don't want to see LFG/LFR finders, because they take people out of the virtual world.  I realize other folks really appreciate them and want them as part of their games.

    I play EVE now, and CCP never really went out of their way to make things convenient for players, and many inconveniences are there by intelligent design. 

    I fully support the long travel time design in that game, it provides a large strategic element to it both in PVE and PVP, but I can't say I want to see really long travel times like I ran into on some of the 20 minute horse rides back in DAOC last year, those sucked.

    So I guess if you were to compare my forum views to my in game views they might seem inconsistent, because I'm picking and choosing, and likely doing so differently than someone else.

    Makes it very hard to gauge from a Developers observation of their player base because there are no real universal truths, only preferences and the number of people who share them.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    What is the content that people are interested in?  The content is following GPS like a mindless zombie clicking on Exclamation marks or doing the same dungeon over and over again to get the right loot?

    Fun challenging combat without the inconvenience of spending time finding the mobs to kill.

    That is why Diablo is so popular, and that is why MMOs are increasingly like ARPGs. Look at WoW dungeons. Back in WOTLK, there are even dungeons with no dungeons and trash .. and just jump into boss combat.

     

    As much as I enjoy killing monsters in games if that's all people want to do is to get to the monsters fast and kill them then it proves my point that people who play MMOs now are fairly simple minded.  Sure people wanted to kill monsters in old MMOs, but that was far from the only thing they did or wanted to do in game.  They certainly didn't consider it the content.  Playing in an MMO is like having the opportunity to live an an alternate fantasy world without the technology of today.  People who play just to level up, quickly progress, and kill things are missing the point of why they were created in the first place.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,939

    Actually the number of gamers that visit forums are very few so you can't get an idea of who is double speaking and who is not on forums.  Next time you are in a game ask 20+ people if they've ever visited this forum; or any forum for that matter.

     

    Wanting a dungeon finder and a sandbox mmorpg is only two things I'm looking for.  I may want a sandbox with dragon riding and pet owning.  A game may come out with those three things.  But it doesn't run on my PC because it's graphics requirements are to high.  So I end up in a themepark with a carbuncle instead.  At least I got the dungeon finder I wanted.

     

    Sum up - no game has every single aspect I'm looking for so I'm not going to be playing what I want no matter what I say I want on forums.



  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    After reading a text from a developer (dont remember well, i think was the Trion's boss) and observing the behavior of people in foruns and ingame, i came to conclusion that what people says they want in a mmo (in foruns) isn't necessarily what they do and seek when really playing (and paying) the game. As a example, the big majority of people in foruns like this says that wants sandboxes features, freedom, absency of hand holding, without instances and so on. However, when they are ingame, they seek these very things. In the heat of the moment, they seek more "convenience" (dumbed down features, making things easier to obtain) and feel lost without hand helding, saying the game has "nothing more to do" and even missing instanced content.

    I think because this the big developers dont gamble much money in full sandboxes and, when they do, they try "fix" the things later adding more themepark features and "convenience" (making things easier) to the game, as Archeage shows.

    I get the feel you are misinterpreting the word "convenience". It doesn't mean making the game easy or dumbed down. It means putting focus on the actual content rather than wasting their time and effort.

    Reading where you need to go is hardly super-human. Following a GPS locator is hardly a massive leap down. Scanning the area to find the right NPC to talk to is not a challenge but an annoyance. An icon above this NPC saves time.

    All this boils down to, do you want the game to be about finding NPCs or about something else. Adding menial tasks to the game doesn't make the game harder or deeper - just more arduous and annoying.

    I find it disheartening to see that you think adding more menial activities would make a game better. You are already heading downhill by talking about "sandbox features" and "themepark features". There's no such thing as sandbox features or themepark features. They're just features.

    Adding "normal" activities I would actually need to do in a virtual world, which I want my MMO to be, increases the quality of world to me. What you consider conveniences are to me world killing features that I don't want in a MMO in the first place.

    Example: In LotRO a Player can either choose to go on a horse themselves from point A to B, grab a Stablemaster Horse at normal speed, or grab a "quick travel" Stablemaster horse, and get there immediately. I ride there on my own. I see the both of the Stablemaster horses as detriments to immersion and world quality. The times I do use a Stablemaster horse is when I am in group, which I frequently am even now that LotRO is no longer encouraging group play) and then I wil take whatever horse the rest of the members of the Fellowship are using for the trip. Courtesy to my fellows. Same with Hunter ports... if alone I won't use them on my Hunter, but in Fellowship I go with what the members as a whole desire.

    Example: Instances. I find them immersion killers big time. If I have the choice in a MMO to do open world content, or open "dungeon" like old Darkness Falls in original DAoC, I will always go with that rather than an Instance.

    Example: I prefer what some would call "tedious and mind-numbing" crafting of Wurm Online much more than crafting in other MMOs, even more than even SWG's old crafting system.

    I see MMOs as a virtual world FIRST, not a game first. The quality of the MMO world is important to me, and all the conveniences many Players ask for actually reduce my enjoyment of a MMO, especially the feature is added after MMO is launched... and yes I do refer to convenience features as "dumbing down" a MMO, for fast travel negates the need to ride to a destination on a mount, which thus negates the need to pay attention, on and on.

     

    You see, from my point of view.... all the Players screaming for conveniences in a MMO, something that is supposed to be a fusion of virtual reality and game and social network.... if they want all these conveniences... do they REALLY want to play a MMO or are they really looking for another genre?

     

    Not all MMO Players want the same things in their MMO. That's why we fight all the time on these boards.... lol

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    People who play just to level up, quickly progress, and kill things are missing the point of why they were created in the first place.

    They are just entertainment. There is no "point" beyond what the individual players like to have fun.

    In fact, you can say "level up, quickly progress, and kill things" is the "point" for many of ARPGs .. which is what MMOs are becoming.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade
     

    Adding "normal" activities I would actually need to do in a virtual world, which I want my MMO to be, increases the quality of world to me. What you consider conveniences are to me world killing features that I don't want in a MMO in the first place.

    Not all MMO Players want the same things in their MMO. That's why we fight all the time on these boards.... lol

    True .. that is why this forum is fun .. for all the opposing sides.

    And i don't want "normal" activities nor a virtual world that is an obstacle to my fun. It is better to have well designed levels (or instances) with multiple options (skill builds) to fight.

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade
     

    Adding "normal" activities I would actually need to do in a virtual world, which I want my MMO to be, increases the quality of world to me. What you consider conveniences are to me world killing features that I don't want in a MMO in the first place.

    Not all MMO Players want the same things in their MMO. That's why we fight all the time on these boards.... lol

    True .. that is why this forum is fun .. for all the opposing sides.

    And i don't want "normal" activities nor a virtual world that is an obstacle to my fun. It is better to have well designed levels (or instances) with multiple options (skill builds) to fight.

    I disagree with you, as usual.

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