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Why i think PvP only does not work

13

Comments

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Member Posts: 1,788

    I don't really care for PvP in MMO's, but I don't think it's going to be an issue here.  There will be a point where additional skill points come with diminishing returns.  What I mean is that once you've sort of fleshed out the build you want, more skill points will only really go to fleshing out other builds that you may not really need (but may want to try out anyway).

    It will be kind of like TSW in that although you can unlock the entire skill chain, there's a point where the benefit is only in optional builds rather than making your primary stronger.  Of course, TSW screwed that up by making 80% of the skill wheel crappy, so hopefully TESO doesn't fall in the same trap.

    You make me like charity

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    Well then I guess we won't be seeing you in ESO ;p.

    That said it seems like a fairly asinine reason to skip out on what's looking to be an awesome PvP game. There is PvE in the PvP zones, and the map is absolutely massive. There's lots of ganking as well as the large zerg warfare. It's large enough to acccomodate both large battles, as well as smaller skirmishes and even smaller ganks / duels. It all depends on which areas of the map you wish to travel around. If you deliberately go towards the hotspots, you'll find a lot more people. If you sneak around / go to the quest areas / skyshard points in enemy lands, you'll find pleanty of smaller fights and gank opportunities.

  • HrothaHrotha Member UncommonPosts: 821
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    its actually quite simple.... most the skillpoints you aquire trough PvE... Quests and exploration

     

    So everyone that aims to jump to ten and do strictly PvP from there on, don´t tell us we didn´t tell you...

    There is PvE endgame content?

     

    ? = !

    image

  • DraucantDraucant Member UncommonPosts: 34
    I believe you also get a skill point for every Assault/Support level. I'm not 100% sure but when watching videos the person got a skill point when reaching level 2 assault/support and then at level 3, there are 50 levels so that could possibly be 50 skill points.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    This is hysterical and sad.

     

    DAoC was roaring along as the second most popular MMO on the market until Mythic did one thing. They launched Trials of Atlantis. This FORCED PvP players to grind and do PvE raiding in order to compete in RvR. It made EVERYONE quit.

     

    Now they've done it again with TESO. Wow. I never thought someone formerly at Mythic would be that dumb.

    It's Elder Scrolls, so story trumps PvP

    I spit out my milk at this. The Elderscrolls stories have been laughably bad since Morrowind. During the "Oblivion Crisis" everyone was too busy doing nothing to actually solve it. Sorry, that excuse does NOT work. Story always takes the back seat in ES games.

     

    You realize this is a very subjective point right? The point the guy is making is there's a lot more to TES games or RPG's in general than action.. Story, lore, setting..etc.. are all important to the whole of the experience.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,140
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    its actually quite simple.... most the skillpoints you aquire trough PvE... Quests and exploration

     

    So everyone that aims to jump to ten and do strictly PvP from there on, don´t tell us we didn´t tell you...

     Of course, the completionist/min maxer will typically have a statically better character. It's like this in just about every game.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Member Posts: 1,788
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.

    If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.

    You make me like charity

  • TechnohicTechnohic Member Posts: 148
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    Look at it as being all open world PvP on every server, but with 3 safe areas.

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Ender4 Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.
    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.

    If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.



    Yeah Darkfall is a terrible game. I'm fine with a game that just makes a couple servers PvP like EQ, WOW etc. I know EQN looks like they are planning on doing it so maybe that is my next game. I want quality PvE only with the ability to sprinkle in PvP organically. Shame that so few games offer that when it takes so little work.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Member UncommonPosts: 1,199
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Originally posted by Ender4 Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.
    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.

     

    If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.


     


    Yeah Darkfall is a terrible game. I'm fine with a game that just makes a couple servers PvP like EQ, WOW etc. I know EQN looks like they are planning on doing it so maybe that is my next game. I want quality PvE only with the ability to sprinkle in PvP organically. Shame that so few games offer that when it takes so little work.

    Almost every MMO has a PvP only server. But when population drops they're one of the first to go, because tacking on a PvP server doesn't work and isn't meaningful.

     

    Also, Darkfall is a better MMO than most that have come out in recent years.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    With the mega server technollogy they could just make a PvP zone paralele on all the pve and allow people to choose PvP... And get to that version of the game..

     

    but, i think the PvE setting does not work well with a PvP threat....  And all open Pvp would distract many PvPers from going to the place intended to battle...  And while i am all for giving people the game they love... The setting would not work well... There are no mechanics in place yet, no justice system, no nothing..

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Originally posted by Ender4 Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.
    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.

     

    If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.



    Yeah Darkfall is a terrible game. I'm fine with a game that just makes a couple servers PvP like EQ, WOW etc. I know EQN looks like they are planning on doing it so maybe that is my next game. I want quality PvE only with the ability to sprinkle in PvP organically. Shame that so few games offer that when it takes so little work.

    The reason a lot of devs don't do this is not because of difficulty. It's because it's expensive to dedicate full resources towards something that most people generally do not want. People like PvP, but they also like having the option of doing something else when they don't feel like it (within the same game preferably). In most Open PvP games, this tends to translate into situations of 'if u dont wanna pvp, either uninstall or play something else', because people abuse it to the point of camping low lvls and preventing them from enjoying the game.

    This problem also gets worse, the longer the game is out, as the power difference between new and veteran players gets larger both in gear, but also in experience / skill lvl. Thus making it counter-productive towards welcoming new players into your game (which is what most games want, because it's a necessity if you want your game to survive as an MMO).

  • obake90obake90 Member Posts: 60
    Why cant they allow players to flag their self as PvP so only pvpers can attack each other but yet they still  can interact with everyone?  Just like old school EQ or SWG, (turn in a book ,become pvp ,only can attack other players who turn in the book)
  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Ender4   Originally posted by asmkm22 Originally posted by Ender4 Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.
    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.   If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.
      Yeah Darkfall is a terrible game. I'm fine with a game that just makes a couple servers PvP like EQ, WOW etc. I know EQN looks like they are planning on doing it so maybe that is my next game. I want quality PvE only with the ability to sprinkle in PvP organically. Shame that so few games offer that when it takes so little work.
    Almost every MMO has a PvP only server. But when population drops they're one of the first to go, because tacking on a PvP server doesn't work and isn't meaningful.

     

    Also, Darkfall is a better MMO than most that have come out in recent years.



    This used to be true but it hasn't been in the past few years. Devs are moving away from the PvP speciality server trying to filter players into their little PvP mini games instead and the two are nothing alike. The PvE crowd 'won' apparently, just sad that this is the direction the genre has gone.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,257
    Originally posted by Technohic
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    Look at it as being all open world PvP on every server, but with 3 safe areas.

    +1  for viewing things creatively image

    Definitely how I'm going to look at the situation.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,377
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.

    With the mega server technollogy they could just make a PvP zone paralele on all the pve and allow people to choose PvP... And get to that version of the game..

     

    but, i think the PvE setting does not work well with a PvP threat....  And all open Pvp would distract many PvPers from going to the place intended to battle...  And while i am all for giving people the game they love... The setting would not work well... There are no mechanics in place yet, no justice system, no nothing..

    Have you ever played DAOC for more than 5 minutes ?

    If you have ....you never would have made your original post.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    its actually quite simple.... most the skillpoints you aquire trough PvE... Quests and exploration

     

    So everyone that aims to jump to ten and do strictly PvP from there on, don´t tell us we didn´t tell you...

    You can solo stay in PVP for the rest of your gamelife after 10 if you wanted to.    If your talking about skill shards, then you would be doing PVE,  you have to choose what you want to do.   PVP only or both PVP and PVE.   Its really up to you.   You dont have to get the skill shards,  though at around 50, it might be worth it since you just have to run to the spots they tell you to run in your achievment log.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Member Posts: 1,788
    Originally posted by Ender4

     


    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Originally posted by Ender4 Have they commented on an open world PvP server yet? That is just about the only way I'll play. PvE without the threat of PvP is just boring and PvP in a special zone gets old really fast.
    They've been pretty clear in that each platform will have one server (probably different ones for different regions though).  So there won't be any dedicated "types" like you're used to with other MMO's.  There's a huge zone (rather large part of the world map) that's always PvP, although it does have some PvE stuff to do as long as you watch your back.

     

    If you want open world PVP that's mandatory for everyone, you'd be better off with something like Darkfall, although those games are generally poorly populated for good reason.


     


    Yeah Darkfall is a terrible game. I'm fine with a game that just makes a couple servers PvP like EQ, WOW etc. I know EQN looks like they are planning on doing it so maybe that is my next game. I want quality PvE only with the ability to sprinkle in PvP organically. Shame that so few games offer that when it takes so little work.

     

    Part of the problem is that an MMO has to have a very healthy population in order to have different servers dedicated to different rulesets.  Otherwise, they end up in a situation where the playerbase is spread out across too many servers, and people can't find groups and each world feels empty.  SWtOR is a great case study of how that can quickly go bad.

    Believe me, I'm in a similar boat as you, except for RP servers.  I'm dreading the fact that I'll have to be playing ESO with people named DeathCatXXX or BouncyGuyz or whatever else the PvP crowd tends to use.  Having a dedicated RP server is nice.

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Member Posts: 1,788
    Originally posted by aesperus
     

    The reason a lot of devs don't do this is not because of difficulty. It's because it's expensive to dedicate full resources towards something that most people generally do not want. People like PvP, but they also like having the option of doing something else when they don't feel like it (within the same game preferably). In most Open PvP games, this tends to translate into situations of 'if u dont wanna pvp, either uninstall or play something else', because people abuse it to the point of camping low lvls and preventing them from enjoying the game.

    This problem also gets worse, the longer the game is out, as the power difference between new and veteran players gets larger both in gear, but also in experience / skill lvl. Thus making it counter-productive towards welcoming new players into your game (which is what most games want, because it's a necessity if you want your game to survive as an MMO).

    You're close.  The reason PvP servers tend to die off quickly, despite being among the most popular at first, is mainly the result of the average PvP player not being much of a long-term MMO player.  If they aren't Pvping, then they aren't logged in.  The current crop of MOBA's is catering well enough to that crowd though.

    You make me like charity

  • TechnohicTechnohic Member Posts: 148

    PvPers don't stick around because they typically are limited to these canned warzones and arenas to earn anything.  There winds up being no reason to be on PvP servers in these themeparks because once the ride is over, there is no one in the worlds except for lowbies leveling.

     

    Then, you are left with a choice.  Either repeat the same few canned warzones forever, or go gank lowbies hoping to draw out enemy players (which believe it or not, most those terrible PvPers are not really into that) or move on.  SWTOR for example, goes out of its way to barely even have you run into the enemy faction the majority of time leveling.  They took out any incentives for OWPvP and all incentives are now in Warzones and Arenas.

     

    This is also eluding to why I never want to see arenas of any sort in ESO.  not only could it draw from Cyrodiil; it also sets up certain balance demands for those wanting to be "compettive" yet they never are perfectly balanced so it never really will be competitive at all.  It just starts an endless gear grind with meaningless PvP other than people who want to stroke themselves about the scoreboard at the end yet accomplish nothing.  

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,305


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by DAS1337 Originally posted by Satarious Originally posted by Dax360 It'll work to a certain extent, as in they will be able to gain levels and spend 1 SP per level. Though they will miss out on all the Sky Shards which means their flexibility will be severely less than any opponent that has done PvE as well. Plus they'll miss out on a whole wealth of different experiences out in the "big wide world" so to speak, things that in my opinion add a lot to the game play experience as a whole.   But if that's the only aspect of the game they are interested in, they'll still be able to reach max level and have fifty-something SP's to spend. But personally I'd feel like I was missing out on far to much of the game I'd paid for to skip the PvE side of things.
    I only hope that these PvE rewards don't put players at a distinct advantage in PvP.  That didn't prove to be very successful when daoc tried it many moons ago.  In fact, those changes were to blame for the fall in subscriber numbers.  They really need to keep the two play styles apart.
    Except that the subs actually rose initially after Trials Of Atlantis.  
    And then crashed to record lows once people had time to realize what it was.

    okay let me chime in here before the BS gets out of hand.

    first of all there were indeed non TOA servers, were there not?

    second of all, i am sure the release of wow and EQ2 shortly after TOA launched had absolutely nothing to do with Daoc bleeding subs at all right?

    EQ1 also lost a shit ton of subs during that same time frame, i wonder why?

    yes the pvpers were not all happy about TOA, that's why they had servers without TOA.

    TOA isn't why they lost so many subs, wow is.


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,062
    Originally posted by DrDwarf

    I think in a virtual world, the idea you can level almost exclusively in PVP is nonsensical.

    PVP should be something your character grows up to do and your character should be required to be a significant part of the world in which the pvp takes part.

    Now ok there needs to be an overlap (because that makes some sense) but letting people jump into pvp at level 10 shouldnt be it IMO.  

    Given that  they need to make sure you can't outlevel PVE people (for equivalent effort)  and you can't end up in better gear.

    It is a good idea to compel PVE players to have to do some PVP to round off their characters too.  I think it is nonsense pve players are allowed to not be attacked in large parts of the PVE world  for example.

    I found the GW2 set up stupid.

    Allowing you to go into Battlegrounds at level 1 in the best gear ... makes no sense to an MMORPG regardless of how much sense it makes to people wanting Tekken.    If you want to do that .. sell it as a different game.

    In many things in life you earn the right to compete..

     

     

    I think Respawn Studios must have heard you. OK TF is multi-player only PvP but I think it encapsulates your view..

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,257
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Originally posted by DAS1337

    Originally posted by Satarious

    Originally posted by Dax360 It'll work to a certain extent, as in they will be able to gain levels and spend 1 SP per level. Though they will miss out on all the Sky Shards which means their flexibility will be severely less than any opponent that has done PvE as well. Plus they'll miss out on a whole wealth of different experiences out in the "big wide world" so to speak, things that in my opinion add a lot to the game play experience as a whole.   But if that's the only aspect of the game they are interested in, they'll still be able to reach max level and have fifty-something SP's to spend. But personally I'd feel like I was missing out on far to much of the game I'd paid for to skip the PvE side of things.
    I only hope that these PvE rewards don't put players at a distinct advantage in PvP.  That didn't prove to be very successful when daoc tried it many moons ago.  In fact, those changes were to blame for the fall in subscriber numbers.  They really need to keep the two play styles apart.
    Except that the subs actually rose initially after Trials Of Atlantis.  
    And then crashed to record lows once people had time to realize what it was.

     

    okay let me chime in here before the BS gets out of hand.

    first of all there were indeed non TOA servers, were there not?

    second of all, i am sure the release of wow and EQ2 shortly after TOA launched had absolutely nothing to do with Daoc bleeding subs at all right?

    EQ1 also lost a shit ton of subs during that same time frame, i wonder why?

    yes the pvpers were not all happy about TOA, that's why they had servers without TOA.

    No, they didn't, at least not at the launch of TOA back in Oct of 2003.  It wasn't until the launch of the Classic servers in Dec 2005 that TOA was removed due to player outcry against the expansion.

    TOA isn't why they lost so many subs, wow is.

    Actually not true, the mass exodus started with the TOA expansion, (even on Mordred, the FFA server)  but accelerated when New Frontiers launched in June of 2004 to finish the job.  Players left in droves then, partially because Lineage 2 launched in April 2004 and promised more interesting PVP.

    WOW came along in Nov of 2004 and players from many games including a large portion of DAOC's player base all went over to the new game with the hope of a new, better pvp game.  (OK, missed that one by a mile)

    TOA most definitely contributed to the huge decline in players and it's nonsense to argue otherwise.

    To this day freeshards launch and for the most part they all remove the TOA expansion and usually New Frontiers as well to return the game back to what is arguably it's best days shortly after the SI launch.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Member UncommonPosts: 1,199
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Originally posted by DAS1337

    Originally posted by Satarious

    Originally posted by Dax360 It'll work to a certain extent, as in they will be able to gain levels and spend 1 SP per level. Though they will miss out on all the Sky Shards which means their flexibility will be severely less than any opponent that has done PvE as well. Plus they'll miss out on a whole wealth of different experiences out in the "big wide world" so to speak, things that in my opinion add a lot to the game play experience as a whole.   But if that's the only aspect of the game they are interested in, they'll still be able to reach max level and have fifty-something SP's to spend. But personally I'd feel like I was missing out on far to much of the game I'd paid for to skip the PvE side of things.
    I only hope that these PvE rewards don't put players at a distinct advantage in PvP.  That didn't prove to be very successful when daoc tried it many moons ago.  In fact, those changes were to blame for the fall in subscriber numbers.  They really need to keep the two play styles apart.
    Except that the subs actually rose initially after Trials Of Atlantis.  
    And then crashed to record lows once people had time to realize what it was.

     

    okay let me chime in here before the BS gets out of hand.

    first of all there were indeed non TOA servers, were there not?

    There were, they were implemented about a year or so after ToA and New Frontiers and /level 20 essentially killed the population. But when they released, they were the most popular servers by a country mile.

    second of all, i am sure the release of wow and EQ2 shortly after TOA launched had absolutely nothing to do with Daoc bleeding subs at all right? Not really. Most of WoWs subs came from outside the MMO market. DAoC's population didn't start dipping until they changed the game to be more like WoW, further driving out their veterans. And due to /level 20, no new players were coming in. There was nothing in WoW to pull PvPers out of DAoC, and of the several guilds I was in at the time that lost people to WoW, almost all came back saying "Just a more casual EverQuest". EverQuest, a game DAoC players already didn't like. So ask yourself, what loses more players. The launch of a super casual PvE MMO (vs a hardcore PvP MMO) or, entirely changing the core mechanics of that PvP MMO to force PvP players to PvE? 

    EQ1 also lost a shit ton of subs during that same time frame, i wonder why?

    Very similar reasons I imagine, as well as the fact that EQ had major expansion burnout and a slipshod development team AND no real end game besides raiding.

    yes the pvpers were not all happy about TOA, that's why they had servers without TOA. Which came far too late.

    TOA isn't why they lost so many subs, wow is. Delusions are nice.

     

    Any other "bullshit" you want me to address?

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