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What MMO devs can learn from D3 new version, if they want to cater to me

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    The new D3 lead has really impressed me with his ballzy decision making. This game might actually make a comeback.  Will the expansion include D3 with it?

    Nope .. i think you have to buy D3 *and* the expansion.

    Remember that D2 wasn't the classic that it was until LoD .. RoS will be D3's LoD.

  • imsoenthusedimsoenthused Member UncommonPosts: 65

    Maybe, and if the expansion makes as much of a difference as LoD did for D2, then maybe I'll buy it, after a few months worth of reviews. I wouldn't underestimate how many of those box sales were to Diablo 2 fans who, quite frankly, didn't stick around very long. The expansion has a steep trail to hike to convince me that it's deserving of my dollars. I can't speak for anyone other than me and my brother, but I doubt we're alone.

    As for it being fun, I didn't think so. I and many others found the higher difficulty levels ludicrously tedious, and for those of us who's fun was item collecting, D3 had bad items. For those of us who loved min/maxing and character planning, there were no synergies and no reason to level more than one of a character class. Maybe it's been patched to a playable state at this point, but at release it was a bad game. It had phenomenal art work, it was in one of my favorite IPs, and it was absolutely horrible to play once you'd run through the story once. It was full of bad design decisions and a testament to what happens when you let a new producer take over a beloved franchise that he has no respect or affection for.

    After paying a full box price to feel like I was being fed a steamy, black turd, it will take some more evidence to get me to go back anywhere near it. After all, fool me once shame on  you, but...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by imsoenthused

    Maybe, and if the expansion makes as much of a difference as LoD did for D2, then maybe I'll buy it, after a few months worth of reviews. I wouldn't underestimate how many of those box sales were to Diablo 2 fans who, quite frankly, didn't stick around very long. The expansion has a steep trail to hike to convince me that it's deserving of my dollars. I can't speak for anyone other than me and my brother, but I doubt we're alone.

    May be D3 fans are  just not D2 fans. It is a very difficult game.

    D3 is a lot more fun than D2 to me, precisely because of all the differences. You are certainly not alone, but probably not a majority of the 15M boxes sold, particular those who spent hundred of hours on the game.

    Again, that is just preferences. Obviously there are others who like D3 quite a bit too ... which is of no surprise, given the huge sales, and the amount of play it is still getting.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    First, let me stress that i am talking about my preference, and what i like in games. And if a MMO devs want me to like their game, here are a few design tips, drawing from how much i enjoy D3 2.01. Some of these are specific to 2.01, some not.

    1) Make combat viscerol and fun. It is simply more fun and feel more powerful to mow down 20 mobs, instead of fighting 2 at a time.  Your cup of tea, but not mine..  That is like playing football against a group of toddlers.. I fail to see the real challenge..

    2) Encourage different builds .. that is .. let the players have many ways of killing mobs effectively. This is the same principle as in games like Deus Ex where you can finish the quest with different approaches. Here, we are only talking about killing stuff .. but encourage different ways to do so. I have been experimenting with new builds since 2.01 came out.  ahh the principle as the old school EQ.. kite em, tank em, fear em, nuke em..

    3) One way to do so ... put random skill effects on gear. I tried out one build simply because of a skill bonus on a legendary helm (which also is an upgrade). Dominant build is a thing of the past in this game. The key is to have items interact with skills.  I agree.. I hated games that use BIS linear gear progression.. POOR design imo..

    4) Encourage experimentation in the meta game. So let players respec at any time.  I'm all for respect as long as it can't be done on the fly.. Meaning, every other fight you switch..  Reasonable cooldown?

    5) Difficulty slider, with clear articulation of risk vs reward. D3 is never too easy or too difficulty for me. MMOs need to learn to do that. It even has a PD option, although i am not using it. I'm all for and requested different difficulty SERVERS to accomodate different desires.. 

    6) Convenience! They add an option to res at your corpse in 2.01. No more running 5 min on empty hallways back to the fight. They also reduce the types of crafting materials. If crafting is not the focus of the game, don't make players jump through hoops managing related inv and stuff. Now you can also port to any way point from the map.

    7) Take away things that distract from the core game, and focus. They took away auction house, and make new drops (legendary) BOA. So obviously the trading game is gone .. but that is good for the monster hunting game.

    8) Polish ... obviously. I don't think i need to talk about blizz level of pollish.

    Again .. this is what *I* like. Devs are free to cater to anyone, so this is not one of those "what MMO should be post". 

     

    Thing is .. you can make games that can appease most and/or more people by offering different servers with different tweaks in code.. as I hinted to above.. Why does Blizz for example have to have 200 servers that are coded the same way?.. What you end up with is thousands that are widespread across those 200 servers that don't like certain features and they quit.. DUH.. But if you tweaked the code and made 2 special servers for them.. They end up staying.. I for one would return to WoW in a heartbeat IF they would just cater to people like me, all they have to do is make a special server with a tweaked code..

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by aesperus

    I really don't understand this OP.

    First off, WHY would any dev be worried about catering to you, specifically?

    Secondly, the only real lesson to be learned from D3 (dev's-wise) is that RMT is a good way to screw up your game. D3 2.01 is essentially just asking gamers to pay for Blizzard to fix their own game. There is nothing 'good' about that for other studios to adopt.

    Everything else you are talking about in regards to build creation, having choices, etc. Other games are already doing better than D3. I'm glad you like the game, but if you really think what they're doing is that amazing, I'd highly recommend checking out the numerous other ARPGs that are way better. D2, Titanquest, Path of Exile, to name a few.

    Titan Quest and Path of Exile are okay ARPGs but they are not better than Diablo 3 imo. POE gives you more choice in your skill tree but that's the only thing that POE has going for it that's better than Diablo 3 :D No wonder you stopped at etc... There is simply nothing else to list!

    Diablo 2 is in a league of its own but the game became amazing after LOD. And then it was a major patch long after release (1.10) that made the game the best ARPG. Besides most people have played D2 to death by now.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
      The only thing I'll give D3 is that it was fun to play through the first 2 times and that the game engine is a lot smoother.  I'm not sure I'd want MMOs to play like this.  I prefer first/third person point of view in most cases.

    That is your preferences. Not mine. As you know, there are many people who have spent hundred of hours into D3 even before the change.

    The combat is way more fun than D1, D2, PoE, Titanquest, and all other ARPGs, for me, of course.

    Class design is a preference .. but personally, i like the diversity of skills (from slow-time bubble, to changing form) in D3 than D1 & D2. Now that i will chalk up to personal preferences.

    But the point is this. You don't want your MMO to play like this ... I do. And i am airing that opinion.

     

    There are some improvements to combat.  Most classes have a way to dodge attacks.  The story, classes, and gritty medieval feel to the game is gone though.  Most of the characters look like some sort of Anime instead of gritty dark characters.

    Fighter vs Barbarian.  The barbarian was in D2, but I never liked the class much.  The fighter was just cooler looking and had neater weapons and armor.

    Amazon vs Demon Hunter.  The demon hunter is some kind of weird blizzard class from world of warcraft.  They look like a cartoon character.  Again we see a more realistic and darker character in the amazon class. 

    Necromancer vs Witch Doctor.  The witch doctor another goofy class from World of Warcraft.  It is very kid like in nature.  A good example is throwing jars of spiders.  It's all very goofy.  You compare this to a Necromancer who is very dark and can summon and army of various different scary skeletons and minions to do his bidding.

    Paladin vs Monk.  The monk is a fairly bland class.  The paladin was for the most part in D2 as well.

    Sorceress vs Wizard.  The Sorceress has a more classic look and feel.  She uses more traditional magic spells.  The Wizard has a very Anime/Cartoony look to them and uses a lot of spells very similar to the mage class in World of Warcraft.

    Other than being very repetitive after the first play through the cut scenes are lacking and the game isn't nearly as dark and doesn't use classic style fantasy characters.  Some might see this as a good thing, but to me the game just got to childish.  I still enjoyed it, but I wouldn't even call it Diablo 3.  It resembles World of Warcraft in to many ways now.

    A good example of how dark the game was is the butcher.  Diablo 2 also has one of the best intros of any game out there.

    I'll also admit being able to loot other players corpses if they died was a fun (guilty pleasure).  When you friend came back after dying to Diablo and saw his gold was all gone was priceless.  Of course said friend often got their revenge on me.

    This is all my opinion and I reserve the right to it.  If you like Diablo 3 and want to play it that's fine with me.  Personally I feel not to comfortable playing games that use and overhead view and click to move anymore.  If the PC allowed you to use a controller like the console versions I'd probably play it more, but I'm done with games that are mouse click fests.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
      The only thing I'll give D3 is that it was fun to play through the first 2 times and that the game engine is a lot smoother.  I'm not sure I'd want MMOs to play like this.  I prefer first/third person point of view in most cases.

    That is your preferences. Not mine. As you know, there are many people who have spent hundred of hours into D3 even before the change.

    The combat is way more fun than D1, D2, PoE, Titanquest, and all other ARPGs, for me, of course.

    Class design is a preference .. but personally, i like the diversity of skills (from slow-time bubble, to changing form) in D3 than D1 & D2. Now that i will chalk up to personal preferences.

    But the point is this. You don't want your MMO to play like this ... I do. And i am airing that opinion.

     

    There are some improvements to combat.  Most classes have a way to dodge attacks.  The story, classes, and gritty medieval feel to the game is gone though.  Most of the characters look like some sort of Anime instead of gritty dark characters.

    Fighter vs Barbarian.  The barbarian was in D2, but I never liked the class much.  The fighter was just cooler looking and had neater weapons and armor.

    Amazon vs Demon Hunter.  The demon hunter is some kind of weird blizzard class from world of warcraft.  They look like a cartoon character.  Again we see a more realistic and darker character in the amazon class. 

    Necromancer vs Witch Doctor.  The witch doctor another goofy class from World of Warcraft.  It is very kid like in nature.  A good example is throwing jars of spiders.  It's all very goofy.  You compare this to a Necromancer who is very dark and can summon and army of various different scary skeletons and minions to do his bidding.

    Paladin vs Monk.  The monk is a fairly bland class.  The paladin was for the most part in D2 as well.

    Sorceress vs Wizard.  The Sorceress has a more classic look and feel.  She uses more traditional magic spells.  The Wizard has a very Anime/Cartoony look to them and uses a lot of spells very similar to the mage class in World of Warcraft.

    Other than being very repetitive after the first play through the cut scenes are lacking and the game isn't nearly as dark and doesn't use classic style fantasy characters.  Some might see this as a good thing, but to me the game just got to childish.  I still enjoyed it, but I wouldn't even call it Diablo 3.  It resembles World of Warcraft in to many ways now.

    A good example of how dark the game was is the butcher.  Diablo 2 also has one of the best intros of any game out there.

    I'll also admit being able to loot other players corpses if they died was a fun (guilty pleasure).  When you friend came back after dying to Diablo and saw his gold was all gone was priceless.  Of course said friend often got their revenge on me.

    This is all my opinion and I reserve the right to it.  If you like Diablo 3 and want to play it that's fine with me.  Personally I feel not to comfortable playing games that use and overhead view and click to move anymore.  If the PC allowed you to use a controller like the console versions I'd probably play it more, but I'm done with games that are mouse click fests.

    I don't know. All you are talking about is that you liked class design better in D2 than in D3. But I wouldn't call Diablo 3 design childish.

    Why are you complaining about repetition in D3? The game follows in the exact footsteps of its predecessor. You grinded like crazy in D2 for drops. Obtaining godly loot in D2 was so difficult that most people resorted to running bots to do yet another countess/pindle run :D And you were doing the exact same thing - over and over again. In the exactly same way as D3. 

    The thing that kept me playing D2 for ages was PvP. I have never enjoyed PvP more in another game. It was purely focused on outwitting your opponent and devising the best combination of items and skills to beat the crap out of other players. Micro skill and character control were super important. I loved doing min maxing theory crafting in D2. I have never seen such crazy variety of possible skill and item builds in an MMO as I have in D2. In MMOs all your items are stupid stat sticks and you get those boring best in slot items. Booooring.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
      The only thing I'll give D3 is that it was fun to play through the first 2 times and that the game engine is a lot smoother.  I'm not sure I'd want MMOs to play like this.  I prefer first/third person point of view in most cases.

    That is your preferences. Not mine. As you know, there are many people who have spent hundred of hours into D3 even before the change.

    The combat is way more fun than D1, D2, PoE, Titanquest, and all other ARPGs, for me, of course.

    Class design is a preference .. but personally, i like the diversity of skills (from slow-time bubble, to changing form) in D3 than D1 & D2. Now that i will chalk up to personal preferences.

    But the point is this. You don't want your MMO to play like this ... I do. And i am airing that opinion.

     

    There are some improvements to combat.  Most classes have a way to dodge attacks.  The story, classes, and gritty medieval feel to the game is gone though.  Most of the characters look like some sort of Anime instead of gritty dark characters.

    Fighter vs Barbarian.  The barbarian was in D2, but I never liked the class much.  The fighter was just cooler looking and had neater weapons and armor.

    Amazon vs Demon Hunter.  The demon hunter is some kind of weird blizzard class from world of warcraft.  They look like a cartoon character.  Again we see a more realistic and darker character in the amazon class. 

    Necromancer vs Witch Doctor.  The witch doctor another goofy class from World of Warcraft.  It is very kid like in nature.  A good example is throwing jars of spiders.  It's all very goofy.  You compare this to a Necromancer who is very dark and can summon and army of various different scary skeletons and minions to do his bidding.

    Paladin vs Monk.  The monk is a fairly bland class.  The paladin was for the most part in D2 as well.

    Sorceress vs Wizard.  The Sorceress has a more classic look and feel.  She uses more traditional magic spells.  The Wizard has a very Anime/Cartoony look to them and uses a lot of spells very similar to the mage class in World of Warcraft.

    Other than being very repetitive after the first play through the cut scenes are lacking and the game isn't nearly as dark and doesn't use classic style fantasy characters.  Some might see this as a good thing, but to me the game just got to childish.  I still enjoyed it, but I wouldn't even call it Diablo 3.  It resembles World of Warcraft in to many ways now.

    A good example of how dark the game was is the butcher.  Diablo 2 also has one of the best intros of any game out there.

    I'll also admit being able to loot other players corpses if they died was a fun (guilty pleasure).  When you friend came back after dying to Diablo and saw his gold was all gone was priceless.  Of course said friend often got their revenge on me.

    This is all my opinion and I reserve the right to it.  If you like Diablo 3 and want to play it that's fine with me.  Personally I feel not to comfortable playing games that use and overhead view and click to move anymore.  If the PC allowed you to use a controller like the console versions I'd probably play it more, but I'm done with games that are mouse click fests.

    I don't know. All you are talking about is that you liked class design better in D2 than in D3. But I wouldn't call Diablo 3 design childish.

    Why are you complaining about repetition in D3? The game follows in the exact footsteps of its predecessor. You grinded like crazy in D2 for drops. Obtaining godly loot in D2 was so difficult that most people resorted to running bots to do yet another countess/pindle run :D And you were doing the exact same thing - over and over again. In the exactly same way as D3. 

    The thing that kept me playing D2 for ages was PvP. I have never enjoyed PvP more in another game. It was purely focused on outwitting your opponent and devising the best combination of items and skills to beat the crap out of other players. Micro skill and character control were super important. I loved doing min maxing theory crafting in D2. I have never seen such crazy variety of possible skill and item builds in an MMO as I have in D2. In MMOs all your items are stupid stat sticks and you get those boring best in slot items. Booooring.

    I believe I only played Diablo 2 through enough times to beat it on max difficulty.  I never had a character that was 99 levels or whatever the maximum was.  I believe I enjoyed playing through it a bit more because I liked the story, dark tone, and classic fantasy feel more.  Diablo 3 is fun, but it's a lot lighter tone and has a very World of Warcraft/Asian feel to the classes and art.  I made it to the original highest difficulty level in the game, but quit after that.  I had to force myself through the final 2 runs of the game and wasn't really having much fun.  I believe if they stuck with a more classic western style fantasy setting, classes, and story I would have probably enjoyed playing through it multiple times.  There was also the completely random maps that helped with replay ability.  The D3 maps have only a few changes here and there that are very small.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,161
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

    If that's the case:

     

    You have to put #2,  #4 and #6 into the cash shop. Maybe make #3 a gamble (buying gems and wagering them on increasing the odd's of getting something exciting).

    Those whales are going to need something to buy.

    lol but... they took out the cash shop :(

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    First, let me stress that i am talking about my preference, and what i like in games. And if a MMO devs want me to like their game, here are a few design tips, drawing from how much i enjoy D3 2.01. Some of these are specific to 2.01, some not.

    1) Make combat viscerol and fun. It is simply more fun and feel more powerful to mow down 20 mobs, instead of fighting 2 at a time.

    2) Encourage different builds .. that is .. let the players have many ways of killing mobs effectively. This is the same principle as in games like Deus Ex where you can finish the quest with different approaches. Here, we are only talking about killing stuff .. but encourage different ways to do so. I have been experimenting with new builds since 2.01 came out.

    3) One way to do so ... put random skill effects on gear. I tried out one build simply because of a skill bonus on a legendary helm (which also is an upgrade). Dominant build is a thing of the past in this game. The key is to have items interact with skills.

    4) Encourage experimentation in the meta game. So let players respec at any time.

    5) Difficulty slider, with clear articulation of risk vs reward. D3 is never too easy or too difficulty for me. MMOs need to learn to do that. It even has a PD option, although i am not using it.

    6) Convenience! They add an option to res at your corpse in 2.01. No more running 5 min on empty hallways back to the fight. They also reduce the types of crafting materials. If crafting is not the focus of the game, don't make players jump through hoops managing related inv and stuff. Now you can also port to any way point from the map.

    7) Take away things that distract from the core game, and focus. They took away auction house, and make new drops (legendary) BOA. So obviously the trading game is gone .. but that is good for the monster hunting game.

    8) Polish ... obviously. I don't think i need to talk about blizz level of pollish.

    Again .. this is what *I* like. Devs are free to cater to anyone, so this is not one of those "what MMO should be post".

     

    1. I want combat to be fun what I don't want is it becoming like many singleplayer games already offer or these Moba's. What I do when I feel the need to mow down 20 baddy's I play Batman, DMC type of games and in those games I enjoy that. Don't want that in my MMORPG sorry.
    2. Can agree with that. But for me a MMORPG needs to provide me with more then just combat else I might last only till max lvl if even that.
    3. Dominant build will remain aslong people will have internet acces or use some skill builder tool.
    4. I really dislike respec anytime. I do like respec but there should be limits at how many you can take. To me it's more "tacticle" and actually makes me think. Every 10th level and increase in payment for it is the maximum to me. Personaly give me a respec option every 20th level.
    5. Plenty of options to make a MMORPG challenging, yet the handholding crowed is unaware how to use it or will whine "gimp".
    6. Again something the handhold player will complain about, but in the way I play there is plenty of convinience I even would say far to much of it. Simple fact if a player doesn't like crafting then stop looting crafting items or resources unles you want to sell/trade them.
    7. MMO's today have already taken allot out of it's core game, you want even less?
    8. Does polish mean a game playable on any computer? Or does it mean mostly free of issue's/bugs and playable on any pc? While when I played WoW I didn't encounter the issue's/bugs I read about on the forums because back then the complaints where mainly the same we still see with new released games.
    Fully understood it's mainly what OP want's and like's. I just wanted to share my opinion on his Op.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Reklaw
     
    1. I want combat to be fun what I don't want is it becoming like many singleplayer games already offer or these Moba's. What I do when I feel the need to mow down 20 baddy's I play Batman, DMC type of games and in those games I enjoy that. Don't want that in my MMORPG sorry.
    That is quite narrow minded. I don't there is an issue if good combat ideas from other genre is incorporated. Look at Borderland .. FPS combat is put into RPG .... with great success. NWO combat is more actiony. Heck, Marvel Heroes uses straight D3 type combat.
    Or better yet .. make a good combat system, and you don't even need to call it a MMO to make me play it.
    1. Dominant build will remain aslong people will have internet acces or use some skill builder tool.
    This is obviously not true when builds depends on random loot. Given the chance, you are just not going to get every possible skill improvement in your loot, so unless you want to gimp yourself, you need to design your build based on the best loot you get.
     

    This is a virtual guarantee that there will be no dominant build for everyone.

    1. I really dislike respec anytime. I do like respec but there should be limits at how many you can take. To me it's more "tacticle" and actually makes me think. Every 10th level and increase in payment for it is the maximum to me. Personaly give me a respec option every 20th level.
    I disagree. Respec any-time is great ... let me experiment. Swapping out one skill and test the whole combo in a dungeon. I am already on the second efficient build. Can't do that with limited respecc.
    1. Plenty of options to make a MMORPG challenging, yet the handholding crowed is unaware how to use it or will whine "gimp".
    Says who? The D3 crowd overlap a lot with MMORPG crowd, and difficulty option is well used.
    1.  
    2. MMO's today have already taken allot out of it's core game, you want even less?
    What *is* the core game? There are just too many: small dungeons, raid, different mode of PvPs. Focusing will make whatever they focus on better. So yes, take more out. For example, i wouldn't mind if they just junk the virtual world, and make Orgrimmar a lobby.
    1. Does polish mean a game playable on any computer? Or does it mean mostly free of issue's/bugs and playable on any pc? While when I played WoW I didn't encounter the issue's/bugs I read about on the forums because back then the complaints where mainly the same we still see with new released games.
    It means it plays well .. optimized, good animation, little things like lighting .. essentially look at D3, SC2, van helsing, ...
    Fully understood it's mainly what OP want's and like's. I just wanted to share my opinion on his Op.

    Of course ... which makes interesting discussions.

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    I am enjoin to  playing D3 , but I have no idea   it is mmo game. I am sorry , my bad.
  • ingphorlasingphorlas Member UncommonPosts: 32
    OP is Cancer. Devs will probably cater to him.
  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,284
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    It would be funny if @narriusseldon was the peak of a bell curve where if a developer saw them in their game, they would know that they've put together the right mix of game features to attract a sufficient number of people to their game to make sure it's profitable.

     

    If that were the case, companies simply need to rename themselves Blizzard.

  • LegereLegere Member UncommonPosts: 123

    i personally found the new version of d3 pretty boring.

    same ol crap , different day.

    a few more oranges to destroy for materials.. rinse repeat.

    if game is too easy, press button to make it harder. if too hard, press button to make it easy...

     

    bit of a snooze fest to be honest.  there are better and more exciting games to play

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Member UncommonPosts: 1,379
    Originally posted by Legere

    i personally found the new version of d3 pretty boring.

    same ol crap , different day.

    a few more oranges to destroy for materials.. rinse repeat.

    if game is too easy, press button to make it harder. if too hard, press button to make it easy...

     

    bit of a snooze fest to be honest.  there are better and more exciting games to play

    I get where you are coming from and agree for the most part. I don't know what they have done since the last time I played, but the game does run smoother for some reason and that in and of itself has made it somewhat more enjoyable than previous play sessions. However, with the new expansion only adding one new class, I do not see myself giving them $80 so me and the wife can play through one more act and and adventure mode with our multiple max level characters seeing as how the game was pretty short to begin with. Paragon did help as well but there is only so many times you can run the same stuff before it gets repetitive. If only the maps would have been more random like previous installments. So many things went wrong with this game but I hope they turn it around for those that were really let down. Unless they add more than one act and class they won't get the opportunity to burn me again.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by imsoenthused
    Originally posted by Axxar

    I actually ended up really disliking the respec anywhere for free feature. It makes me feel detached from my character and I feel he's just a clean slate carbon copy of all other characters of the same class. I missed building my character in Diablo 3.

    Yep, I was such a Diablo 2 fan that I jumped right in D3 and was hugely disappointed. Lots of us were. There were raging forum wars about the fact that Torchlight 2 was a better Diablo 3 and than the actual Diablo 3 was. The game was almost universally despised by Diablo 2 fans. This game single handedly made me swear to never buy another Blizzard product with out waiting for six months or so worth of reviews. I miss playing with synergies and making characters. It took an investment to try something really interesting. Now it's just a matter of flipping a few toggles, and no real chance for originality. Nobody who sees your build goes, "Wow, I want to make a new character and try that". They just flip a few toggles. I think that killed the spirit of the game almost as much as the horrible drops. Getting rid of the auction house sounds nice and all, but I don't know that it's enough to make me re-install the game.

    Many disagree. I am a much bigger D3 fan than D2 because of respec anywhere. It makes experimentation with builds great.

    In fact, i don't want to "make an investment" just to try a new build. That is why D3 is a much better game than D2 to me. I don't know what is your problem about trying out builds. Exactly i want either others can copy my builds, or i can use good ideas from others.

    TL2 .. really? Its skills and combat are no where as much fun as D3.

     

    I like the ability to respec, but I'd rather have it cost something to the player so their builds are more meaningful in a sense. I also dont like that every ability gets unlocked at certain level, as with the ability runes. I'd much rather have the "tree" style like old Diablo's where I get to choose my progression path, with D3 EVERYONE is hammered into the exact same progression path.

     

    Torchlight 2 has quite nice system too, not exactly the same as old Diablos but in TL2 you buy abilities and buffs to them with skillpoints, and you have the ability to choose from several different abilities instead of getting just certain abilities at exactly pre-defined levels like in D3.

     

    TL2 also has just as smooth and fun combat like D3, though the D3 physics effects are a big plus, also I think the Blizzard overall polishing of the game is better. I also like the Diablo setting more.

     

    It's so annoying when there's 2 very similar games, and their good sides never cross, so I have 2 games that I would love to just fuse together for epicness, but now I have 2 games with both having shortcomings.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Kuinn

     

     

    I like the ability to respec, but I'd rather have it cost something to the player so their builds are more meaningful in a sense. I also dont like that every ability gets unlocked at certain level, as with the ability runes. I'd much rather have the "tree" style like old Diablo's where I get to choose my progression path, with D3 EVERYONE is hammered into the exact same progression path.

     That we disagree. I respect and tweak my build almost daily. The "meaning" of a build, to me, is only whether they are fun or not. If there are 10 fun builds to me, i do not see why there should be any restrictions on which one i can play this min.

    In fact, the leveling is a small part of the gameplay. If i look at my 800 hours main, probably less than 10 or even 5% is in leveling. You customize after you reach max level, not before. The point of the level, for me, is to learn and try out those skills. It has nothing to do with customization. It is a big tutorial for the random-dungeon-loot-hunt-build-experimentation game.

    Torchlight 2 has quite nice system too, not exactly the same as old Diablos but in TL2 you buy abilities and buffs to them with skillpoints, and you have the ability to choose from several different abilities instead of getting just certain abilities at exactly pre-defined levels like in D3.

     

    TL2 also has just as smooth and fun combat like D3, though the D3 physics effects are a big plus, also I think the Blizzard overall polishing of the game is better. I also like the Diablo setting more.

     

    It's so annoying when there's 2 very similar games, and their good sides never cross, so I have 2 games that I would love to just fuse together for epicness, but now I have 2 games with both having shortcomings.

    While TL2 is not as fun as D3 to me (mainly the skills design, and less experimentation), it is not a bad game and i do not want to knock it.

    I play D3, TL2, Van Helsing .. and to some extent PoE (though i like it least amongst these 4). Van Helsing is the #2 .. you should try it. Fun combat mechanics, a lot of character, and skill tree (which you like more than i do), and cost to respec.

    No one needs to play only ONE ARPG .. though again, many of the D3 design is great for me, and i would like MMO *more* if they use these design principles.

     

  • sportsfansportsfan Member Posts: 431

    I guess the OP is in love with a game.

    But by killing ALL automatic trading, they took the fun out of the game for me.

    patch 2.01 made the loot better, but at the same time it now shows the problem was not the trading, it was the loot.

    They should at least let the automated mats trading in the game, but the PR folks at Blizzard decided otherwise.

     

    Also fast jumping from one location to another is bad for a real MMORPG. It makes these games feel cheap. The world travel needs to stay in.

    D3 RoS will hardly sell 2 million copies. D3 has a too bad reputation to come back. Amazon.com shows pre sales are very very low, hence Blizzard added a character of their upcoming Dota like game to attract more pre orders at the last minute. The pre oder numbers must be catastropic as these last minute promotions is very unlike Blizzard.

    ARPG's these days are too niche, despite the initial sales of D3. Those sales were mainly caused by (ex)WoW people looking into it and trying it, but they really didn't like it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by sportsfan

    I guess the OP is in love with a game.

    But by killing ALL automatic trading, they took the fun out of the game for me.

    "love" is such a strong word. It is just a game.

    While i do enjoy the trading before, i play mainly to kill stuff in fun ways and progress with gear improvement. I am with the majority .. it is simply more fun to find an upgrade, then buy one.

  • davc123davc123 Member UncommonPosts: 454
    new MMO dev can learn ony  bad ideas from d3
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by davc123
    new MMO dev can learn ony  bad ideas from d3

    Not if they want to make better games for me.

     

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