Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway. That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream. It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable. Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma? You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system? It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.
All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game. Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.
Whilst the Trinity system is obviously old - as in it's been around for years - there's a good reason for the longevity:
Done well it's an extremely good way of having character differentiation in group play.
Now a well done here for GW2 for trying something else, I've always said the more variety the better. The fact that it's ended up in a biggest dps class zerg fest in groups maybe should have been expected when you give every class healing capabilities. But at least it's an attempt at variety.
But back to the Trinity.
It has been around for years - unpopular features tend to rapidly disappear from mmos. This one hasn't done. That's not a reason why nothing else should ever be tried, but it is a reason not to completely discard it from future mmo developments. As I said earlier the Trinity system, done well, is a great method for role diversification.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Personal Preferences aside, what you're saying doesn't make sense.
GW2 IS structured. It's just not structured around what you want. While the game did drop the ball in a few areas, you can still complete all the game's content with any setup of classes. What you can't do, is walk in w/ any group setup, put zero thought into its synergy, and faceroll. It's not that type of game. It requires players to think about what they are doing.
This does not mean that support roles get 'shafted', but rather that they behave differently than a traditional trinity system. In short, it's a new way of thinking about games, with which you are refusing to adapt. Anyone that plays non-trinity games & understands them, knows just how important support roles are. This is especially true for every MOBA currently on the market.
The trinity system 'works', because it is oversimplified to the extreme, and so easy that literally anyone can pick it up with minimal effort. However, it's flaws are in that it both creates massive imbalances in grouping (how many games do we need before people will catch on to the fact that very few people play tanks and healers. Every trinity game has this problem, with FFXIV being the latest to demonstrate this); Additionally trinity systems put a cap on how interesting & dynamic the combat can get. Because it molds everyone into one of 3 pre-defined roles, it severely limits what players can, and can't do. You don't really get to see very many interesting mechanics as a result, because they don't fit this highly-specialized mindset. It also leads to fairly stale group dynamics, as it prevents classes from alternating between roles within a combat situation.
- Whether or not you prefer trinities, I'd strongly suggest at least making an attempt to play & understand other types of games. Otherwise, you are going to find yourself a jaded, bitter, veteran gamer with a perpetual case of rose-tinted glasses syndrom. Everyone believes the games they started with are 'the best'. However, everyone can't be right about this, and there are indeed a lot of ways to make a good game. You don't need to trap yourself into playing 1 game model, and 1 game model only.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Personal Preferences aside, what you're saying doesn't make sense.
GW2 IS structured. It's just not structured around what you want. While the game did drop the ball in a few areas, you can still complete all the game's content with any setup of classes. What you can't do, is walk in w/ any group setup, put zero thought into its synergy, and faceroll. It's not that type of game. It requires players to think about what they are doing.
This does not mean that support roles get 'shafted', but rather that they behave differently than a traditional trinity system. In short, it's a new way of thinking about games, with which you are refusing to adapt. Anyone that plays non-trinity games & understands them, knows just how important support roles are. This is especially true for every MOBA currently on the market.
The trinity system 'works', because it is oversimplified to the extreme, and so easy that literally anyone can pick it up with minimal effort. However, it's flaws are in that it both creates massive imbalances in grouping (how many games do we need before people will catch on to the fact that very few people play tanks and healers. Every trinity game has this problem, with FFXIV being the latest to demonstrate this); Additionally trinity systems put a cap on how interesting & dynamic the combat can get. Because it molds everyone into one of 3 pre-defined roles, it severely limits what players can, and can't do. You don't really get to see very many interesting mechanics as a result, because they don't fit this highly-specialized mindset. It also leads to fairly stale group dynamics, as it prevents classes from alternating between roles within a combat situation.
- Whether or not you prefer trinities, I'd strongly suggest at least making an attempt to play & understand other types of games. Otherwise, you are going to find yourself a jaded, bitter, veteran gamer with a perpetual case of rose-tinted glasses syndrom. Everyone believes the games they started with are 'the best'. However, everyone can't be right about this, and there are indeed a lot of ways to make a good game. You don't need to trap yourself into playing 1 game model, and 1 game model only.
GW2 is structured - to the extent that every bugger in it is rolling a Warrior.
Whilst the Trinity system is obviously old - as in it's been around for years - there's a good reason for the longevity:
Done well it's an extremely good way of having character differentiation in group play.
Now a well done here for GW2 for trying something else, I've always said the more variety the better. The fact that it's ended up in a biggest dps class zerg fest in groups maybe should have been expected when you give every class healing capabilities. But at least it's an attempt at variety.
But back to the Trinity.
It has been around for years - unpopular features tend to rapidly disappear from mmos. This one hasn't done. That's not a reason why nothing else should ever be tried, but it is a reason not to completely discard it from future mmo developments. As I said earlier the Trinity system, done well, is a great method for role diversification.
The primary reason the trinity system has existed for so long, is it's accessibility. It is literally the simplest, most dumbed-down way to setup group dynamics for a combat situation. Across all genres, it tends to always be the simplest & easiest to understand mechanics, that become the most popular. The trinity is the MMO's version of this.
The reason GW2 became zergy was less a result of their modified trinity, and more a result of how they tried to balance the game (they deliberately avoided adding complex mechanics, because it was 'too hard' to keep balanced).
I don't think the trinity will ever fully disappear, because it's so easy to jump into and do well with; but I do think a lot of people are getting tired of it's over-simplicity. Traditional taunt mechanics don't really make a lot of sense, and they make even less sense in PvP. Other games (like MOBAs) have shown that you can have tank & support roles, without relying on traditional taunt mechanics, healers, or trinity gameplay.
wow jumping to conclusions must be an olympic sport around here.
this does not mean there will be no control focus, no healing focus, etc., it just means it's not going to work like WoW.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Originally posted by TalulaRose Another game where everyone is the dps role.......I think I will pass.
Noooooo!
Please come back. you are so important and valuable and the game will just die without you
What you say in jest is a very true statement. Many on this forum, also the ones here that give the reviews @ MMORPG.com have said that GW2 taught them how much they love the trinity. So soon after GW2 failure its no wonder so many are just thinking, I'll pass on EQN. Get enough with this stand and EQN can go from a awesome success to doing just ok, or like GW2, fail!
I don't mind roles geared towards support or survivability, but absolute dependance on a certain class to progress is terrible for gameplay.
This !!! I am playing vitality/toughness warrior in GW2 since start with Hammer and shield /mace I am by no way tank but i can survive so much dmg and in dungeons i run in first always to the mobs and draw their attention.
With hammer i can stun them for few secs and if they unload all dps on me I have shield block that negates all dmg. Dungeons can be done on completely different ways.
Saying that all just dps is rly dumb and makes me wonder if ppl actually played the game.
GW2 has for me the best combat and roles system. You have to actively dodge and pay attention to the fight instead of tanking in one spot while healer is spamming you with his 1 button press heal.
Good thing there are tons of trinity games on the market so if you dont like action combat, well to bad for you....
Whilst the Trinity system is obviously old - as in it's been around for years - there's a good reason for the longevity:
Done well it's an extremely good way of having character differentiation in group play.
Now a well done here for GW2 for trying something else, I've always said the more variety the better. The fact that it's ended up in a biggest dps class zerg fest in groups maybe should have been expected when you give every class healing capabilities. But at least it's an attempt at variety.
But back to the Trinity.
It has been around for years - unpopular features tend to rapidly disappear from mmos. This one hasn't done. That's not a reason why nothing else should ever be tried, but it is a reason not to completely discard it from future mmo developments. As I said earlier the Trinity system, done well, is a great method for role diversification.
The primary reason the trinity system has existed for so long, is it's accessibility. It is literally the simplest, most dumbed-down way to setup group dynamics for a combat situation. Across all genres, it tends to always be the simplest & easiest to understand mechanics, that become the most popular. The trinity is the MMO's version of this.
The reason GW2 became zergy was less a result of their modified trinity, and more a result of how they tried to balance the game (they deliberately avoided adding complex mechanics, because it was 'too hard' to keep balanced).
I don't think the trinity will ever fully disappear, because it's so easy to jump into and do well with; but I do think a lot of people are getting tired of it's over-simplicity. Traditional taunt mechanics don't really make a lot of sense, and they make even less sense in PvP. Other games (like MOBAs) have shown that you can have tank & support roles, without relying on traditional taunt mechanics, healers, or trinity gameplay.
I honestly think you are being too one sided in regard to the Trinity system. To me it's like any feature - it can be done poorly (or dumbed down as you put it), or it can be done with significant complexity requiring a good level of skill from all parties in the group, or at higher level raids.
To me it's not about the type of mechanic, whether it's Trinity, All-In-One class structure or anything in between. It is the quality of the mechanic and how well developers undertake this.
Sure you can dumb down group play - but that is completely separate from what mechanic you are using. Dumbing down is not associated with Trinity or non-Trinity, it's game complexity - that's a separate topic.
I am a fan of Trinity mechanics, but I'm also a fan of games trying something else. Each of these game formats will have it's benefits - if they are done well.
Why do people think the Trinity is 'old and outdated?'
Do you guys think oxygen is old and outdated?
Just because something has been around a while, doesn't mean it needs changed. Sometimes, the 'horrible terrible old and outdated thing' is actually a staple of that exact same thing.
Next you'll say you want pancakes that doesn't use eggs, because eggs are... you know... So old outdated and passe.
The problem with the old trinity system (heal, taunt tank, dps) is that it is very predictable, and not really suited to use against some more advanced combat AI. Because the trintity system with the taunt eleminates any AI requirement, and you can just add some scripted variations(in which you break up the trinity for a certain time in most cases).
You don't have the holy trinity in any pvp game, because players can't be taunted, and/or it would be ridiculous silly and not a lot of fun. Why do you think a lot of people avoid pve, avoid raids? Because they are predictable and in the long run not challenging.. if you have beat one encounter, if you have a strategy against that any difficultiy is gone.. and therefore it is not really challenging for a lot of people.
For a laugh, go play EQ2 PvP... you actually can taunt players as a tank and its horrible. Every second you will be targeting the tank again, you basically need to smash a 'previous target' macro to function in PvP. Just further proof of how dumb the mechanic is.
Oh my god! I can't believe you even said that. Doesn't that just prove that taunts in PvP work? The fact that it's annoying means it's working! What about stun locking? Freezing? They are based on the same premise. You may not have to switch targets, but the fact that you actually have to go back to your initial target makes it all the more compelling to attack the tanking target first. Isn't that the expressed purpose of the tank role?
My favorite argument, though, is about realism. We're playing a game with magical spells! Want something more realistic? Ok, what about a chain? If I throw a chain around the moster and pull it towards me, does that make it more realistic? If I'm holding a monster with a chain and it can't attack anyone else, what's it going to do? It'll attack me. Shoot, look at the military. You've got differentiation in roles there, too, and that's real-real. Like, sure, everyone is going to have some self-heal ability, we've got healing potions, or food or something for minor wounds, but if our leg gets blown off, we'll probably need someone a little more specialized to help. Snipers strike from afar. They are ultimately vulnerable to attack because they're less mobile, but are invaluable in taking enemies out. Infantry are your tanks. They might not have magical spells and they sure as hell don't get the credit they deserve, but they're in the shit drawing fire, whether they like it or not. Sorry, it doesn't get any more real than that.
Perfectly explained, I was thinking the same how combat over the centuries have always relied on tank/healer/dps and how MMO's have mimic'd it. To everyone saying that shouting to get aggro makes no sense it is in place of your giant armoured warrior walking over and bitch slapping the mob off it's intended target and physically getting in its way while your dps unloads on them. Funny how the wizard conjuring fire from he's hands and the rogue going invisible is all totally believable but a warrior roaring a battle shout to draw attention to himself well that part is just crazy high fantasy
When it was announced EQNext was going to the PS4 all the trimming down of the roles made a lot more sense. What we are getting is EQNext Console Edition.
Originally posted by TalulaRose Another game where everyone is the dps role.......I think I will pass.
Noooooo!
Please come back. you are so important and valuable and the game will just die without you
What you say in jest is a very true statement. Many on this forum, also the ones here that give the reviews @ MMORPG.com have said that GW2 taught them how much they love the trinity. So soon after GW2 failure its no wonder so many are just thinking, I'll pass on EQN. Get enough with this stand and EQN can go from a awesome success to doing just ok, or like GW2, fail!
agreed. The lack of Trinity does have a large impact on the game and from most i talk to, its a negative one. when i played GW and GW2, it wasn't near as fun or enjoyable. I didn't feel like i really did anything important within my parties. Anything that random_bob_02 couldn't have done. There was no incentive to friends list anyone and no real reason for anyone to do the same for me. That doesn't feel like it promotes community involvement or the need improve much.
I don't really understand the obsession with getting rid of the trinity, or tanks in particular, either.
Healers, that's something I could personally do without and I found that the self-heals and emphasis on buffs for support was well-executed in GW2. The problem came from the lack of tanks.
The players need to have a reliable way to influence the AI of the NPC they're fighting. Otherwise strategy goes down the drain.
The most basic system for that would be aggro&threat. GW2 also had aggro up to a point, but it basically reset constantly, causing everyone to just ball up and zerg in most dungeons.
Instead of kicking out tanks and leaving boss fights open to either full (predictable) scripting or randomness, we need to think of novel ways for players to be able and influence the behaviour of the NPC's they're fighting, aside from aggro and threat.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Originally posted by Lonzo We want Trinitiy!!! Stop these light MMOs!
Speak for yourself.
I want innovation while still having a role to perform. Innovation is the key and it looks like EQN is actually innovating on, adapting to, and progressing the concept of MMO combat and NPC Artificial Intelligence. I'll take this every single day and twice on Sunday's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Lonzo We want Trinitiy!!! Stop these light MMOs!
Speak for yourself.
I want innovation while still having a role to perform. Innovation is the key and it looks like EQN is actually innovating on, adapting to, and progressing the concept of MMO combat and NPC Artificial Intelligence. I'll take this every single day and twice on Sunday's.
Yes you are being inovated straight into a dps, just like everyone else gratz.
Originally posted by KhinRunite No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.
It's actually the worst idea. But carry on.
No hard trinity alone actually is the worst idea (think GW2) but no hard trinity + smart AI (if it actually is decently smart) is the BEST idea!
Tanking NPC by delivering slaps and steady stream of mother curses while mage bombard from 50 miles is as dumb as it gets at the same time everyone just watch the next font 48 sized alert to pop on the screen and the healers have no idea how the fight goes as they combat the EQUILIZER monster.
Saying that tanking, healing, dpsing, cc'ing etc is mindless and doesnt take any skills is very mindless and witness to your lack of skills. Im sure I would have been forced to kick several of you from the group after the first few pulls But your FREE NOW!! FREE to run and be all the zerg you can be!
Bear witness to the retardation of both trinity extremists and non-trinity ones and take heed for their kinds will be the doom of all MMOs as rampant mutation and stagnation simultaneously rend apart the genre.
Melodramatic? Yes. About as worthwhile a point as 99% of the ones in this thread? Yarp.
After playing a little bit on alpha, I can see why they would probably not stick with the trinity.
The game has huge terrain options, and battles will not be on a straight plane, like it has been in almost all other MMOs. This means that using your environment is a big issue in fighting mobs, so much so, that one of the reasons they haven't added mobs to the landmark alpha, as stated by the devs, is that they have to perfect the pathing code, since straight lines will not work with terrain that can stop the mobs in place. They will have a DEDICATED server for NPCs, and all it will handle is NPC interactions with both the world and the players.
With that in mind, being just a meat shield is very very limiting... that is right, it LIMITS what you can do... not that you can't be a big tank, soaking up all the damage and keeping the NPCs attention on yourself, while someone heals you and someone else dedicates himself to do as much damage without being targeted... but while that route is STILL AVAILABLE, it is not the ONLY WAY to play.
The other issue is: Variable Mob difficulty and AI. If you just go for best dps potential, you will probably kill a few small group mobs, but the behemoths that take a full group to kill, will most likely decimate you, unless you are properly prepared in your group to redirect damage, set traps (using terrain), NPC control (be that through use of a tank, or croud control player or other), or other tactics, that could make combat extremely complex. On top of this, you have to remember that you can't just Select your class... you start out as an adventurer, and have to go out and quest for your class. Requiring a "Tank" means requiring that someone out there get lucky and get the proper class, have it leveled up enough to unlock the taunts and buffs, as well as getting and/or crafting proper defensive gear to soak up the damage....
TL;DR: This is a new game with new AI and terrain as a factor... keeping the old trinity, while still doable, is not the only way to progress.
Comments
Whilst the Trinity system is obviously old - as in it's been around for years - there's a good reason for the longevity:
Done well it's an extremely good way of having character differentiation in group play.
Now a well done here for GW2 for trying something else, I've always said the more variety the better. The fact that it's ended up in a biggest dps class zerg fest in groups maybe should have been expected when you give every class healing capabilities. But at least it's an attempt at variety.
But back to the Trinity.
It has been around for years - unpopular features tend to rapidly disappear from mmos. This one hasn't done. That's not a reason why nothing else should ever be tried, but it is a reason not to completely discard it from future mmo developments. As I said earlier the Trinity system, done well, is a great method for role diversification.
Personal Preferences aside, what you're saying doesn't make sense.
GW2 IS structured. It's just not structured around what you want. While the game did drop the ball in a few areas, you can still complete all the game's content with any setup of classes. What you can't do, is walk in w/ any group setup, put zero thought into its synergy, and faceroll. It's not that type of game. It requires players to think about what they are doing.
This does not mean that support roles get 'shafted', but rather that they behave differently than a traditional trinity system. In short, it's a new way of thinking about games, with which you are refusing to adapt. Anyone that plays non-trinity games & understands them, knows just how important support roles are. This is especially true for every MOBA currently on the market.
The trinity system 'works', because it is oversimplified to the extreme, and so easy that literally anyone can pick it up with minimal effort. However, it's flaws are in that it both creates massive imbalances in grouping (how many games do we need before people will catch on to the fact that very few people play tanks and healers. Every trinity game has this problem, with FFXIV being the latest to demonstrate this); Additionally trinity systems put a cap on how interesting & dynamic the combat can get. Because it molds everyone into one of 3 pre-defined roles, it severely limits what players can, and can't do. You don't really get to see very many interesting mechanics as a result, because they don't fit this highly-specialized mindset. It also leads to fairly stale group dynamics, as it prevents classes from alternating between roles within a combat situation.
- Whether or not you prefer trinities, I'd strongly suggest at least making an attempt to play & understand other types of games. Otherwise, you are going to find yourself a jaded, bitter, veteran gamer with a perpetual case of rose-tinted glasses syndrom. Everyone believes the games they started with are 'the best'. However, everyone can't be right about this, and there are indeed a lot of ways to make a good game. You don't need to trap yourself into playing 1 game model, and 1 game model only.
GW2 is structured - to the extent that every bugger in it is rolling a Warrior.
The primary reason the trinity system has existed for so long, is it's accessibility. It is literally the simplest, most dumbed-down way to setup group dynamics for a combat situation. Across all genres, it tends to always be the simplest & easiest to understand mechanics, that become the most popular. The trinity is the MMO's version of this.
The reason GW2 became zergy was less a result of their modified trinity, and more a result of how they tried to balance the game (they deliberately avoided adding complex mechanics, because it was 'too hard' to keep balanced).
I don't think the trinity will ever fully disappear, because it's so easy to jump into and do well with; but I do think a lot of people are getting tired of it's over-simplicity. Traditional taunt mechanics don't really make a lot of sense, and they make even less sense in PvP. Other games (like MOBAs) have shown that you can have tank & support roles, without relying on traditional taunt mechanics, healers, or trinity gameplay.
wow jumping to conclusions must be an olympic sport around here.
this does not mean there will be no control focus, no healing focus, etc., it just means it's not going to work like WoW.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Noooooo!
Please come back. you are so important and valuable and the game will just die without you
What you say in jest is a very true statement. Many on this forum, also the ones here that give the reviews @ MMORPG.com have said that GW2 taught them how much they love the trinity. So soon after GW2 failure its no wonder so many are just thinking, I'll pass on EQN. Get enough with this stand and EQN can go from a awesome success to doing just ok, or like GW2, fail!
Phew I thought this was a thread saying there is a trinity, and you were protesting against it. Well i'm personally really glad there is no trinity.
I don't mind roles geared towards support or survivability, but absolute dependance on a certain class to progress is terrible for gameplay.
My blog:
GW1 had no trinity too - and had better combat than GW2
EQ2 fan sites
This !!! I am playing vitality/toughness warrior in GW2 since start with Hammer and shield /mace I am by no way tank but i can survive so much dmg and in dungeons i run in first always to the mobs and draw their attention.
With hammer i can stun them for few secs and if they unload all dps on me I have shield block that negates all dmg. Dungeons can be done on completely different ways.
Saying that all just dps is rly dumb and makes me wonder if ppl actually played the game.
GW2 has for me the best combat and roles system. You have to actively dodge and pay attention to the fight instead of tanking in one spot while healer is spamming you with his 1 button press heal.
Good thing there are tons of trinity games on the market so if you dont like action combat, well to bad for you....
I honestly think you are being too one sided in regard to the Trinity system. To me it's like any feature - it can be done poorly (or dumbed down as you put it), or it can be done with significant complexity requiring a good level of skill from all parties in the group, or at higher level raids.
To me it's not about the type of mechanic, whether it's Trinity, All-In-One class structure or anything in between. It is the quality of the mechanic and how well developers undertake this.
Sure you can dumb down group play - but that is completely separate from what mechanic you are using. Dumbing down is not associated with Trinity or non-Trinity, it's game complexity - that's a separate topic.
I am a fan of Trinity mechanics, but I'm also a fan of games trying something else. Each of these game formats will have it's benefits - if they are done well.
Perfectly explained, I was thinking the same how combat over the centuries have always relied on tank/healer/dps and how MMO's have mimic'd it. To everyone saying that shouting to get aggro makes no sense it is in place of your giant armoured warrior walking over and bitch slapping the mob off it's intended target and physically getting in its way while your dps unloads on them. Funny how the wizard conjuring fire from he's hands and the rogue going invisible is all totally believable but a warrior roaring a battle shout to draw attention to himself well that part is just crazy high fantasy
When it was announced EQNext was going to the PS4 all the trimming down of the roles made a lot more sense. What we are getting is EQNext Console Edition.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
agreed. The lack of Trinity does have a large impact on the game and from most i talk to, its a negative one. when i played GW and GW2, it wasn't near as fun or enjoyable. I didn't feel like i really did anything important within my parties. Anything that random_bob_02 couldn't have done. There was no incentive to friends list anyone and no real reason for anyone to do the same for me. That doesn't feel like it promotes community involvement or the need improve much.
I don't really understand the obsession with getting rid of the trinity, or tanks in particular, either.
Healers, that's something I could personally do without and I found that the self-heals and emphasis on buffs for support was well-executed in GW2. The problem came from the lack of tanks.
The players need to have a reliable way to influence the AI of the NPC they're fighting. Otherwise strategy goes down the drain.
The most basic system for that would be aggro&threat. GW2 also had aggro up to a point, but it basically reset constantly, causing everyone to just ball up and zerg in most dungeons.
Instead of kicking out tanks and leaving boss fights open to either full (predictable) scripting or randomness, we need to think of novel ways for players to be able and influence the behaviour of the NPC's they're fighting, aside from aggro and threat.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Speak for yourself.
I want innovation while still having a role to perform. Innovation is the key and it looks like EQN is actually innovating on, adapting to, and progressing the concept of MMO combat and NPC Artificial Intelligence. I'll take this every single day and twice on Sunday's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Speak for yourself.
I want innovation while still having a role to perform. Innovation is the key and it looks like EQN is actually innovating on, adapting to, and progressing the concept of MMO combat and NPC Artificial Intelligence. I'll take this every single day and twice on Sunday's.
Yes you are being inovated straight into a dps, just like everyone else gratz.No hard trinity alone actually is the worst idea (think GW2) but no hard trinity + smart AI (if it actually is decently smart) is the BEST idea!
Tanking NPC by delivering slaps and steady stream of mother curses while mage bombard from 50 miles is as dumb as it gets at the same time everyone just watch the next font 48 sized alert to pop on the screen and the healers have no idea how the fight goes as they combat the EQUILIZER monster.
Was only a matter of time, I didn't make this video nor do I take any credit for it.
Hitler Rant
Bear witness to the retardation of both trinity extremists and non-trinity ones and take heed for their kinds will be the doom of all MMOs as rampant mutation and stagnation simultaneously rend apart the genre.
Melodramatic? Yes. About as worthwhile a point as 99% of the ones in this thread? Yarp.
After playing a little bit on alpha, I can see why they would probably not stick with the trinity.
The game has huge terrain options, and battles will not be on a straight plane, like it has been in almost all other MMOs. This means that using your environment is a big issue in fighting mobs, so much so, that one of the reasons they haven't added mobs to the landmark alpha, as stated by the devs, is that they have to perfect the pathing code, since straight lines will not work with terrain that can stop the mobs in place. They will have a DEDICATED server for NPCs, and all it will handle is NPC interactions with both the world and the players.
With that in mind, being just a meat shield is very very limiting... that is right, it LIMITS what you can do... not that you can't be a big tank, soaking up all the damage and keeping the NPCs attention on yourself, while someone heals you and someone else dedicates himself to do as much damage without being targeted... but while that route is STILL AVAILABLE, it is not the ONLY WAY to play.
The other issue is: Variable Mob difficulty and AI. If you just go for best dps potential, you will probably kill a few small group mobs, but the behemoths that take a full group to kill, will most likely decimate you, unless you are properly prepared in your group to redirect damage, set traps (using terrain), NPC control (be that through use of a tank, or croud control player or other), or other tactics, that could make combat extremely complex. On top of this, you have to remember that you can't just Select your class... you start out as an adventurer, and have to go out and quest for your class. Requiring a "Tank" means requiring that someone out there get lucky and get the proper class, have it leveled up enough to unlock the taunts and buffs, as well as getting and/or crafting proper defensive gear to soak up the damage....
TL;DR: This is a new game with new AI and terrain as a factor... keeping the old trinity, while still doable, is not the only way to progress.