Trinity is not an old developers dream, its the basis for party grouping, it was the trinity that forged the first parties to begin with, not greed for loot, back on the day people wanted to beat the boss not just get loot.
That being said, trinity is still the best way to keep order in the chaos, and the AI has nothing to do with the trinity system, you can still manage threat in a efective way while "targetting" the squishy ones, but keeping a guy in the middle stoping from moving, think about a massive guy stopping you from moving freely on the field, thats pretty much a tank...
Trinity is the base of MMORPG, GW2 failed miserably on it, and certainly i rather have a trinity party based group than a solo chaos, makes me think of a fps more than a mmorpg.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
Combat in Pantheon will be built around a desire to change things up in the MMO space. Contemporary MMOs have become very fast paced and, for lack of a better term, spammy. While the combat is still reactionary in nature it tends to break down to focusing on your rotation while moving left or right. With Pantheon the desire is to shift things back to a slower paced combat where the frequency of ability execution is slower and your rotation is dictated more by your response to the encounter than just a sequence of abilities.
How will we accomplish this? By reaching into the past, and looking at games likeEverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Final Fantasy XI, and focusing on fewer abilities, and a slower pace of combat. In these games combat involved longer ability activation times, and refresh. They focused on the player or group reacting to cues from NPCs and environment and reacting through the use of ability or position. Current MMOs retain this mechanic but if you stop to watch and react you are not focused on your rotation that fills the in-between time. This results in a potential loss of DPS which ends up taking precedence over utilizing your utility abilities. The values of these abilities is then reduced because they end up just becoming a part of a rotation unless a particular encounter is designed around using them.
Abilities like stun, slow, snare, and root have lost their usefulness. In games like those mentioned previously these abilities were important to manage or execute at the right time. With Pantheon we want to bring some of that back while mixing in some current mechanics that exist in today’s MMOs.
Preparation
One of the key things related to combat is preparation. Similar to the spell slots system from EQ the player is limited in how many abilities they can have available to them in combat. Abilities are stored in ability sets which carry with them certain parameters and limitations. For instance, abilities all have a color influence based on their magical school and adding an ability to a set may require an ability of a certain color before it can be slotted. When out of combat the player can swap abilities if they so desire. The strategic selection of abilities and creation of ability sets will be important when taking on bigger encounters as you explore Terminus.
Abilities
Abilities in Pantheon are very special. Each ability was used by a powerful hero. These heroes are no longer around but their essence imbues the world of Terminus. When harnessed, these abilities can be used in many combinations with other abilities.There are two types of abilities regular and enhanced. Regular abilities are the common abilities that will be executed more frequently. Enhanced abilities must be powered up through the use of regular abilities.
Regular abilities are all defined with a color and power level, on top of what they do. The color represents the magical influence of the hero. Power level represents how powerful that ability is relative to other abilities.
Enhanced abilities are special abilities that require the activation of other abilities in their ability group. Each enhanced ability is linked to a group of abilities themed after a hero. Like regular abilities these abilities have a color influence and must follow the same slot rules as regular abilities. Enhanced abilities can only be activated when their growth bar has reached 100% or higher. At 100% the ability does normal damage, every 100% after that increases the damage of the ability by 100%. Super ability growth happens when an ability in the same ability group is used.
Skill Chains and Sympathetics
Skill chains are a series of super abilities executed in a particular order. These abilities are executed by multiple players. When a skill chain is completed an additional effect fires, this effect is called a sympathetic ability. There is only a certain window of time between each ability activation that the next qualifying one can be. If the player has discovered the chain their ability will light up if they have a qualifying ability letting them know they need to fire that ability next in order to take the chain to the next level.
Chain discovery occurs through experimentation. In order to discover they must try different combinations until they successfully complete the chain. When a chain is initially discovered it is entered into the tome of war. Only through practice can the player unlock the chain, fully gaining its biggest benefit.
Harnessing a Hero
While the player can combine abilities into various sets, true power comes from combining a number of abilities from the same heroes creating a special ability set called a Hero’s Essence.
A form of advanced ability set, hero essences can grow through use like other ability sets, but they have higher tiers and when advanced fully some of these essences will allow the player to take on the look of that hero granting them access to more paths of power.
Roles
With Pantheon we want to bring back class roles that involve more than just tank, healer and DPS. In EverQuest crowd control, utility, and debuffing were a major part of combat and so will it be in our world. This means that each class falls into a particular role but it does not mean that they do not have some basic attributes from other roles. UsingEverQuest as an example, damage shields were the domain of druids and mages, enchanters owned the domain of mana regen and haste but a shaman could give you a less powerful haste if an enchanter was not available. Then there were bards who could do almost everything but nowhere near as well as the classes they were mimicking.
In general the classes of EverQuest kept their identities which made for varied memorable experiences as players took on challenges in different ways. It is these moments that have driven our class and combat designs. Here is a list of the roles that will exist in Pantheon.
Tank: Tanks are the defenders of their groups. When it comes to taking damage they do it like no other. If a group mate is in trouble, tanks are there to attract the attention of their foes with a timely shield bash or a quick snap of their blade. They care not for the glory of highest damage only that the members of their group survives long enough to tell the tale.
Healer: Feeling ill and need a pick me up? That is what a healer does. From buffing your health and curing a deadly disease to stitching up those 'flesh wounds' this role is the cog that keeps the group machine rolling through its enemies like a steam train.
DPS: Adept at dealing death, those classes that fit in the DPS role are revered for their ability to execute both burst and sustained damage. Not big fans of taking damage, DPS classes leave the job of tanking to the tanks so they can focus on what they do best...crush their enemies and you know the rest.
Utility: While tanks can take damage and healers can help recover that damage sometimes the situation can get out of control. When this happens you may need some crowd control, or maybe a haste buff or two, maybe someone can sing a merry tune. The utility role includes the classes that don’t care about doing big damage or making a mob angry at them, these classes enjoy managing the chaos that comes with a fight. They enjoy manipulating all of the variables that can affect the outcome of things, as if they were playing a grand piano. In this sense I guess you could say the utility class is the maestro of their group.
Summary
To sum it all up, Pantheon’s combat will be a slower paced strategic combat that incorporates some modern day ideals. Allowing the player to survey the battle will give them the ability to make tactical decisions bringing back the utility of ability effects like stun, snare, and root. It will focus on pre-combat preparation and ability, allowing the player to adjust the way they play depending on their mood or the challenge ahead. With depth through all aspects including the ability to slot growth, group leveling, and chain skills, players will have many ways to grow in power and exploit their targets.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.
It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.
I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them? If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics. Problem solved.
It was to make people aware of what the devs are planning and to have a discussion about it. If you find it irrelevant that's fine you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but if you have no interest in it why open it and comment? Was the title not clear enough?
The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.
Couldn't agree more, some people here are saying that it's evolution, I don't see how, imo the whole point of a MMO is teamplay.
I agree 100% bud. Check out Pantheon. It's exactly up our ally. This is the game for us, not all this crap thats come out since 2002. Finally a game going back to the roots. Where players actually interact and group to defeat harder monsters that takes skill, not one shotting 100 mobs in 3 mins.
Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.
In any case, it's true, you are entitled to your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.
My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the disillusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.
You are jumping to the conclusion without any context that there will be no teamwork when they have clearly said they want a focus on team play, socializing, roles are present as always, players will need each to overcome challenges, etc.
It isn't their fault some lack imagination and can't think beyond the trinity. Is the trinity roles and teamwork or taunt and dated mechanics? If you pick the first one, nothing to worry about, if you pick the second, sorry.
I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them?
If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics.
Problem solved.
It was to make people aware of what the devs are planning and to have a discussion about it. If you find it irrelevant that's fine you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but if you have no interest in it why open it and comment? Was the title not clear enough?
Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.
In any case, it's true, you are entitled to your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.
My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the illusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.
The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.
It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.
Couldn't agree more, some people here are saying that it's evolution, I don't see how, imo the whole point of a MMO is teamplay.
I agree that mmo is the spirit of teamplay but teamplay does not equate to trinity. Some of the MMO originators were not even remotely trinity based. Asheron's Call is the example I can speak on the most since I played it for numerous years. There was no classes, just skills you could mix and match. There was no typical taunt skill, however, a well armored person could physically place themselves between mobs and the rest of their party as there was collision detection. There also was no trinity, and most people built for self sustainability. However, in group play there was more than typical trinity in order to teamplay to work. Groups would buff each other, debuff mobs, help heal each other at times, use collision detection to create effective choke points. The game wasn't a gear grind as the loot system was more like diablo than a typical mmo.
Trinity is not the end all, be all to mmos. There can be, and should be more options. People harp on about GW2 and how their lack of trinity failed. However, as a current GW2 player, I can tell you that in dungeon runs and wvw groups with my guild we often run builds that help compliment each other. There is support play, there is tankier builds, sustain builds, full on glass cannon builds, and many things in between. There's way too much focus on the zerg gameplay that happens in bigger events and in prime time WvW. However, that is just one facet of the game, and there are other less talked about facets to the game.
I, for one, am pretty excited to see what SoE has in store for their numerous classes they are putting in the game. Even more excited to see if they open up gameplay for buffers, debuffers, controllers, healing, etc. Breaking apart the support roles into sub roles is going to be a great thing for the genre again. There's been too much focus on Tank, Healer, DPS roles and other support roles have either been homogenized into one of those three main roles or ignore completely.
Intelligent AI? So, making the NPC's act in a way a human would. Even if someone wanted to create such an extravagant system, it would still follow simple rules.
NPC would have build in meters, such as threat meters or dps meters. they would intelligently look at group HP or calculate who has the weakest mitigation nearly instantly. They would just focus down the weakest member and CC the highest damage.
On top of that, it's chaos. Look at the MT boss fight in WoW. Or the SWTOR dungeon where you fight 4 guys who aren't tauntable. Sure it might be cool for a deviation from normal tank/spank encounters SOMETIMES, but then it becomes an unocoordinated zerg-fest with little team-play and a lot of stress.
I'm not saying it's impossible to do away with the trinity and have really smart NPC's, but it's hard to balance the fun factor of playing a game vs. how crazy frustrating it would become.
The trinity hasnt existed in any other game that I know of since EQ1. DPS was NOT part of the trinity.
It was tank, healer, utility guy which was crowd control of some form slows, mez, stuns , roots , charm , fear etc.
The utility guy was either the least or most important member of the trinity depending where your group was hunting.
Everything else is just a DPS .
I did want dedicated tanks , healers , utility guys for EQN , the trinity isnt bad.
However I would never want that to be the only viable group make up.
I want a game system that allows tactics to change based on the group composition.
5 healers should be viable
5 DPS should be viable
5 tanks should be viable
5 Utility should be viable
5 of a mix of any Tank, healer , DPS , Utility should be viable
a trinity group should just be the easiest most reliable group , but limiting that as the only functional group
robs players of the chance to improvise new tactics and makes the game more boring.
As for Tanks and taunts.
I would do away with taunts . Make it so that tank classes in the role of tank will do mega damage to a mob unless that mob actively focuses on defending against the tank. And /or make tank special attacks, (sunder, hamstring, stun etc) become way more powerful if the mob isnt focused on the tank.
What I mean is this , say you are a rogue , you are behind the mob swinging away doing normal damage , then occasionally there is an opening and you have the chance to do a mega damage backstab . A tank should do normal damage until the mob thinks , that jerk rogue just messed me up . the mob turns and stops focusing its defensive tactics on the tank, the tank now uses his expert training in military tactics to find weak spots , and do mega damage hits or the special attacks have a greater magnitude.
Multi defense would need to be a skill somehow , Like against one mob you have full defensive skill, but against 2 you have 50% each or against 3 you have 33% each , but multi defense would raise those percentages .
Really can't wrap my head around why people don't understand what they are doing. They haven't been to clear and the details are a bit scattered, but still it is fairly obvious.
There are more options then just Trinity (EQ/WoW) and Zerg DPS (GW2). I'm not sure if people just have lack of experience or what, but take any mmorpg with PVP and look at how it runs.
There are still clearly defined roles that work perfectly without taunt, threat meters, and other hand-holding features while still enforcing teamwork, communication, and strategy.
Sure there are situations in any game where DPS is the quickest and easiest route, but unless that is how the game was designed (GW2), it shouldn't be the norm.
If you add in any sort of reactive-"smart" AI or mechanics that throw curve balls, a rounded team is needed. Maybe you don't need a "dedicated" healer every single encounter, doesn't mean they are garbage. With 40+ classes, they have endless possibilities on how to get creative with content.
They don't flat out give details, but they've also mentioned that you can "try" anything, doesn't mean you will succeed, at least not easily. Unlike EQ/WoW, if you didn't show up with XYZ, don't show up at all.
While we have very little context to go by and just a few details, there is nothing to draw the conclusion that EQN = GW2 or mindless DPS zerging.
GW2 class system is nothing like EQN's. The AI system won't be the same. Combat system won't be the same. Etc. Etc.
I'm sorry that some people have to rely on crappy mechanics like taunt and "dedicated" whatever, but it is a outdated system that many are more than happy to be rid of.
Which would explain why more peolpe are playing Trinity based system than non-Trinity .. its not even close ....
If you can't see the potential and think outside the box of a very few ways that games have done it in the past, that's too bad.
They aren't trying to make EQ3 or GW3 or copy what has been done before. If you can't handle it, oh well, your loss.
Pantheon is dedicated to those stuck in the past and looking at the KS, that doesn't seem to be as many willing to throw money at the game as there are stomping their feet on every new game to be announced. You asked for it, there ya go.
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.
Originally posted by KhinRunite No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.
Yeah everyone wins every time, never a losing strategy with the new system. Just log in and you get a award.
I am not against a non-trinity game, but I think what most people think of is GW2. I dont know how they can make a viable non-chaotic fun system. What they say sounds good on paper, but how will it implement in reality. I would love to be in a group finder and get instant queue w/o being a tank or healer. The queue times in FFXIV for a non tank/healer are ridiculous. On the other hand I do not want a system that resembles GW2 at all.
They are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
One of the reasons I WILL be there. I am sick of playing the same old tired game designs that have limited the genre for such a long time.
BTW, you do know that "LEEEEEROOOYYYYYYYYYYYYY JENKINS" Comes from WoW, with the Trinity right?
Right. You are not going to fool anyone into thinking that there being no trinity means "Zerg" when every single person that has ever played trinity based games at one point had a group or raid that was goofball crazy running around like chickens with their heads cut off getting everyone killed.
I reject your black and white assessments because its biased, a good group of players will adjust to being able to do EVERYTIHNG by picking what they like the most as needed for the moment, and the LEET players will do it on the fly.
"Hey, I have slightly better armor, I will tank this time, who has the better magic bonuses? Good, you heal. Hey you have the better weapon, you DPS. Everyone, pop your heals when healer is on cooldown only".
GOOD players make use of the system available.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by KhinRunite No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.
others (see Tanking tactics) ... rez aggro, aggro + kite
Problem is alot of people who claim to have played GW2 are not even aware tanking is possible. Big difference in GW2 tanking and regular trinity games is you have to work much harder and its based more on CC, kiting when there are large enemies instead of face tanking these monstrosities.
Some enemies of course prioritize enemies differently which is good to mix up the fights...they even do this in trinity games...its those monsters which are "untauntable" or attack casters at certain times, basically an uninspired version of enemies with different "mindsets" and targeting priorities.
As for healing, you can spec into really strong healing but you are doing an injustice by just "healing" since most classes are sort of reliant for their own healing and damage management through evasion and CC. The healers are better off going DPS, however I must note that in large WvW fights AOE heal capable players can turn the tide of a siege...best example AOE healing on the Ram crews to stay in the fight and breach.
TLDR:
GW2 has a soft trinity to say otherwise is just ignorant of the system, not to disrespect anyones opinions but what I linked is from ANET about their aggro tables (Facts), and my first hand experience being an Engi tank with my Guardian Tank buddy.
The system is not perfect but it is very viable to make for more engaging combat instead of tank and spank aggro mechanics.
EQN Storybricks AI system is the potential secret sauce to add that missing element to the GW2-like soft trinity system imo. You just have to adapt to enemy preferences on a fight by fight basis.
Disclaimer: I like trinity to a point, and I much prefer a "soft" trinity system with role specialization. I currently play WoW and GW2.
I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?
Trinity, done rightly or wrongly has the idea of placing the big plate wearing melee fighter in the front line. The rangers and casters standing at a distance behind them, where the mobs "can't ideally" get to them. Things like taunt are really just bad skills, were knock back, wall defense and that type of thing is what they really should be providing. Rogues should be nimble and go unnoticed, sure a stab in the back hurts, but went the mob turns there's no one there.
Healers is a means to an end, but casters could be more support play with like magical shields to prevent damage, abilities to magically freeze targets, charm targets and the like while still doing damage. Rangers should trap and hinder etc etc. Trouble is this is all to hard to manage in confined dungeon space with fast action combat.
Having multi class is fine, but is only been a requirement due to bad class balance and design. Make tank less taunty and healers less specailsed and dps more supportive, but most importantly make classes enjoyable and balanced so people will play a good mix.
Me personally, I'll stick with the Trinity til someone makes something better that works
I like the trinity myself, but I am not going to rant, throw a hissy fit, and tell them that their game's combat sucks, without seeing it and playing it.
I worry about the game being too casual, but I can't say it will be, or make a post saying it is, when me nor anyone else has played it or knows.
I didn't like any GW2 class I tried, and I thought that the game was too cluttered, if EQN delivers the same, I won't be playing it. I have liked games without a trinity before, UO is one of my top 2 mmos of all time, and it didn't. I gotta wait and see.
I donated to Pantheon, because I miss trinity play, enchanter type classes, and loved VG/EQ, but I don't refuse to play something if it is made by company 'x'.
I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?
Easily. It many fantasy settings it was the mages that created the dragons in the first place. In other settings mages are in control of the dragons. It yet other settings there are mages that have a staff in one hand, a sword in the other and scream out things like "You shall not pass" to Balrogs that were Maiar and thus more powerful than dragons.
Immersion is a funny thing.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Comments
Trinity is not an old developers dream, its the basis for party grouping, it was the trinity that forged the first parties to begin with, not greed for loot, back on the day people wanted to beat the boss not just get loot.
That being said, trinity is still the best way to keep order in the chaos, and the AI has nothing to do with the trinity system, you can still manage threat in a efective way while "targetting" the squishy ones, but keeping a guy in the middle stoping from moving, think about a massive guy stopping you from moving freely on the field, thats pretty much a tank...
Trinity is the base of MMORPG, GW2 failed miserably on it, and certainly i rather have a trinity party based group than a solo chaos, makes me think of a fps more than a mmorpg.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/comments
It would be nice for those of you who prefer the trinity and other old style systems to invest in this game. *shrugs*
Combat in Pantheon Rise of the Fallen
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/728944?ref=dash
All About Combat in Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Slowing things down
Combat in Pantheon will be built around a desire to change things up in the MMO space. Contemporary MMOs have become very fast paced and, for lack of a better term, spammy. While the combat is still reactionary in nature it tends to break down to focusing on your rotation while moving left or right. With Pantheon the desire is to shift things back to a slower paced combat where the frequency of ability execution is slower and your rotation is dictated more by your response to the encounter than just a sequence of abilities.
How will we accomplish this? By reaching into the past, and looking at games likeEverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Final Fantasy XI, and focusing on fewer abilities, and a slower pace of combat. In these games combat involved longer ability activation times, and refresh. They focused on the player or group reacting to cues from NPCs and environment and reacting through the use of ability or position. Current MMOs retain this mechanic but if you stop to watch and react you are not focused on your rotation that fills the in-between time. This results in a potential loss of DPS which ends up taking precedence over utilizing your utility abilities. The values of these abilities is then reduced because they end up just becoming a part of a rotation unless a particular encounter is designed around using them.
Abilities like stun, slow, snare, and root have lost their usefulness. In games like those mentioned previously these abilities were important to manage or execute at the right time. With Pantheon we want to bring some of that back while mixing in some current mechanics that exist in today’s MMOs.
Preparation
One of the key things related to combat is preparation. Similar to the spell slots system from EQ the player is limited in how many abilities they can have available to them in combat. Abilities are stored in ability sets which carry with them certain parameters and limitations. For instance, abilities all have a color influence based on their magical school and adding an ability to a set may require an ability of a certain color before it can be slotted. When out of combat the player can swap abilities if they so desire. The strategic selection of abilities and creation of ability sets will be important when taking on bigger encounters as you explore Terminus.
Abilities
Abilities in Pantheon are very special. Each ability was used by a powerful hero. These heroes are no longer around but their essence imbues the world of Terminus. When harnessed, these abilities can be used in many combinations with other abilities.There are two types of abilities regular and enhanced. Regular abilities are the common abilities that will be executed more frequently. Enhanced abilities must be powered up through the use of regular abilities.
Regular abilities are all defined with a color and power level, on top of what they do. The color represents the magical influence of the hero. Power level represents how powerful that ability is relative to other abilities.
Enhanced abilities are special abilities that require the activation of other abilities in their ability group. Each enhanced ability is linked to a group of abilities themed after a hero. Like regular abilities these abilities have a color influence and must follow the same slot rules as regular abilities. Enhanced abilities can only be activated when their growth bar has reached 100% or higher. At 100% the ability does normal damage, every 100% after that increases the damage of the ability by 100%. Super ability growth happens when an ability in the same ability group is used.
Skill Chains and Sympathetics
Skill chains are a series of super abilities executed in a particular order. These abilities are executed by multiple players. When a skill chain is completed an additional effect fires, this effect is called a sympathetic ability. There is only a certain window of time between each ability activation that the next qualifying one can be. If the player has discovered the chain their ability will light up if they have a qualifying ability letting them know they need to fire that ability next in order to take the chain to the next level.
Chain discovery occurs through experimentation. In order to discover they must try different combinations until they successfully complete the chain. When a chain is initially discovered it is entered into the tome of war. Only through practice can the player unlock the chain, fully gaining its biggest benefit.
Harnessing a Hero
While the player can combine abilities into various sets, true power comes from combining a number of abilities from the same heroes creating a special ability set called a Hero’s Essence.
A form of advanced ability set, hero essences can grow through use like other ability sets, but they have higher tiers and when advanced fully some of these essences will allow the player to take on the look of that hero granting them access to more paths of power.
Roles
With Pantheon we want to bring back class roles that involve more than just tank, healer and DPS. In EverQuest crowd control, utility, and debuffing were a major part of combat and so will it be in our world. This means that each class falls into a particular role but it does not mean that they do not have some basic attributes from other roles. UsingEverQuest as an example, damage shields were the domain of druids and mages, enchanters owned the domain of mana regen and haste but a shaman could give you a less powerful haste if an enchanter was not available. Then there were bards who could do almost everything but nowhere near as well as the classes they were mimicking.
In general the classes of EverQuest kept their identities which made for varied memorable experiences as players took on challenges in different ways. It is these moments that have driven our class and combat designs. Here is a list of the roles that will exist in Pantheon.
Tank: Tanks are the defenders of their groups. When it comes to taking damage they do it like no other. If a group mate is in trouble, tanks are there to attract the attention of their foes with a timely shield bash or a quick snap of their blade. They care not for the glory of highest damage only that the members of their group survives long enough to tell the tale.
Healer: Feeling ill and need a pick me up? That is what a healer does. From buffing your health and curing a deadly disease to stitching up those 'flesh wounds' this role is the cog that keeps the group machine rolling through its enemies like a steam train.
DPS: Adept at dealing death, those classes that fit in the DPS role are revered for their ability to execute both burst and sustained damage. Not big fans of taking damage, DPS classes leave the job of tanking to the tanks so they can focus on what they do best...crush their enemies and you know the rest.
Utility: While tanks can take damage and healers can help recover that damage sometimes the situation can get out of control. When this happens you may need some crowd control, or maybe a haste buff or two, maybe someone can sing a merry tune. The utility role includes the classes that don’t care about doing big damage or making a mob angry at them, these classes enjoy managing the chaos that comes with a fight. They enjoy manipulating all of the variables that can affect the outcome of things, as if they were playing a grand piano. In this sense I guess you could say the utility class is the maestro of their group.
Summary
To sum it all up, Pantheon’s combat will be a slower paced strategic combat that incorporates some modern day ideals. Allowing the player to survey the battle will give them the ability to make tactical decisions bringing back the utility of ability effects like stun, snare, and root. It will focus on pre-combat preparation and ability, allowing the player to adjust the way they play depending on their mood or the challenge ahead. With depth through all aspects including the ability to slot growth, group leveling, and chain skills, players will have many ways to grow in power and exploit their targets.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.
It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.
I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them?
If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics.
Problem solved.
It was to make people aware of what the devs are planning and to have a discussion about it. If you find it irrelevant that's fine you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but if you have no interest in it why open it and comment? Was the title not clear enough?Calling the trinity design "lazy" is in itself "lazy" unless you propose a better, fun and exciting alternative.
Couldn't agree more, some people here are saying that it's evolution, I don't see how, imo the whole point of a MMO is teamplay.@ OP:
I agree 100% bud. Check out Pantheon. It's exactly up our ally. This is the game for us, not all this crap thats come out since 2002. Finally a game going back to the roots. Where players actually interact and group to defeat harder monsters that takes skill, not one shotting 100 mobs in 3 mins.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen
Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.
In any case, it's true, you are entitled to your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.
My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the disillusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.
It isn't their fault some lack imagination and can't think beyond the trinity. Is the trinity roles and teamwork or taunt and dated mechanics? If you pick the first one, nothing to worry about, if you pick the second, sorry.
Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.
In any case, it's true, you are entitled to your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.
My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the illusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.
I agree that mmo is the spirit of teamplay but teamplay does not equate to trinity. Some of the MMO originators were not even remotely trinity based. Asheron's Call is the example I can speak on the most since I played it for numerous years. There was no classes, just skills you could mix and match. There was no typical taunt skill, however, a well armored person could physically place themselves between mobs and the rest of their party as there was collision detection. There also was no trinity, and most people built for self sustainability. However, in group play there was more than typical trinity in order to teamplay to work. Groups would buff each other, debuff mobs, help heal each other at times, use collision detection to create effective choke points. The game wasn't a gear grind as the loot system was more like diablo than a typical mmo.
Trinity is not the end all, be all to mmos. There can be, and should be more options. People harp on about GW2 and how their lack of trinity failed. However, as a current GW2 player, I can tell you that in dungeon runs and wvw groups with my guild we often run builds that help compliment each other. There is support play, there is tankier builds, sustain builds, full on glass cannon builds, and many things in between. There's way too much focus on the zerg gameplay that happens in bigger events and in prime time WvW. However, that is just one facet of the game, and there are other less talked about facets to the game.
I, for one, am pretty excited to see what SoE has in store for their numerous classes they are putting in the game. Even more excited to see if they open up gameplay for buffers, debuffers, controllers, healing, etc. Breaking apart the support roles into sub roles is going to be a great thing for the genre again. There's been too much focus on Tank, Healer, DPS roles and other support roles have either been homogenized into one of those three main roles or ignore completely.
Intelligent AI? So, making the NPC's act in a way a human would. Even if someone wanted to create such an extravagant system, it would still follow simple rules.
NPC would have build in meters, such as threat meters or dps meters. they would intelligently look at group HP or calculate who has the weakest mitigation nearly instantly. They would just focus down the weakest member and CC the highest damage.
On top of that, it's chaos. Look at the MT boss fight in WoW. Or the SWTOR dungeon where you fight 4 guys who aren't tauntable. Sure it might be cool for a deviation from normal tank/spank encounters SOMETIMES, but then it becomes an unocoordinated zerg-fest with little team-play and a lot of stress.
I'm not saying it's impossible to do away with the trinity and have really smart NPC's, but it's hard to balance the fun factor of playing a game vs. how crazy frustrating it would become.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The trinity hasnt existed in any other game that I know of since EQ1. DPS was NOT part of the trinity.
It was tank, healer, utility guy which was crowd control of some form slows, mez, stuns , roots , charm , fear etc.
The utility guy was either the least or most important member of the trinity depending where your group was hunting.
Everything else is just a DPS .
I did want dedicated tanks , healers , utility guys for EQN , the trinity isnt bad.
However I would never want that to be the only viable group make up.
I want a game system that allows tactics to change based on the group composition.
5 healers should be viable
5 DPS should be viable
5 tanks should be viable
5 Utility should be viable
5 of a mix of any Tank, healer , DPS , Utility should be viable
a trinity group should just be the easiest most reliable group , but limiting that as the only functional group
robs players of the chance to improvise new tactics and makes the game more boring.
As for Tanks and taunts.
I would do away with taunts . Make it so that tank classes in the role of tank will do mega damage to a mob unless that mob actively focuses on defending against the tank. And /or make tank special attacks, (sunder, hamstring, stun etc) become way more powerful if the mob isnt focused on the tank.
What I mean is this , say you are a rogue , you are behind the mob swinging away doing normal damage , then occasionally there is an opening and you have the chance to do a mega damage backstab . A tank should do normal damage until the mob thinks , that jerk rogue just messed me up . the mob turns and stops focusing its defensive tactics on the tank, the tank now uses his expert training in military tactics to find weak spots , and do mega damage hits or the special attacks have a greater magnitude.
Multi defense would need to be a skill somehow , Like against one mob you have full defensive skill, but against 2 you have 50% each or against 3 you have 33% each , but multi defense would raise those percentages .
I imagine this topic will be repeated many times between now and when EQN launches.
Too much misinformation from people unwilling to do simple research.
EQN will not be like GW2 because EQN is only removing tanks. In EQN you can be a dedicated healer.
I'm sorry that some people have to rely on crappy mechanics like taunt and "dedicated" whatever, but it is a outdated system that many are more than happy to be rid of.
Which would explain why more peolpe are playing Trinity based system than non-Trinity .. its not even close ....
Yeah everyone wins every time, never a losing strategy with the new system. Just log in and you get a award.
One of the reasons I WILL be there. I am sick of playing the same old tired game designs that have limited the genre for such a long time.
BTW, you do know that "LEEEEEROOOYYYYYYYYYYYYY JENKINS" Comes from WoW, with the Trinity right?
Right. You are not going to fool anyone into thinking that there being no trinity means "Zerg" when every single person that has ever played trinity based games at one point had a group or raid that was goofball crazy running around like chickens with their heads cut off getting everyone killed.
I reject your black and white assessments because its biased, a good group of players will adjust to being able to do EVERYTIHNG by picking what they like the most as needed for the moment, and the LEET players will do it on the fly.
"Hey, I have slightly better armor, I will tank this time, who has the better magic bonuses? Good, you heal. Hey you have the better weapon, you DPS. Everyone, pop your heals when healer is on cooldown only".
GOOD players make use of the system available.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
It's actually the worst idea. But carry on.
This wont change anyones opinions about the GW2 system but I am going to say it anyways to help highlight some facts about their "trinity" system.
There is tanking in the game, but yes there is not much of a pure healer class.
Its more like Tank like classes, CC, and "support" which includes some clinch heals and buffs.
Just to be clear here is how you can tank in GW2:
As for healing, you can spec into really strong healing but you are doing an injustice by just "healing" since most classes are sort of reliant for their own healing and damage management through evasion and CC. The healers are better off going DPS, however I must note that in large WvW fights AOE heal capable players can turn the tide of a siege...best example AOE healing on the Ram crews to stay in the fight and breach.
TLDR:
Disclaimer: I like trinity to a point, and I much prefer a "soft" trinity system with role specialization. I currently play WoW and GW2.
I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?
Trinity, done rightly or wrongly has the idea of placing the big plate wearing melee fighter in the front line. The rangers and casters standing at a distance behind them, where the mobs "can't ideally" get to them. Things like taunt are really just bad skills, were knock back, wall defense and that type of thing is what they really should be providing. Rogues should be nimble and go unnoticed, sure a stab in the back hurts, but went the mob turns there's no one there.
Healers is a means to an end, but casters could be more support play with like magical shields to prevent damage, abilities to magically freeze targets, charm targets and the like while still doing damage. Rangers should trap and hinder etc etc. Trouble is this is all to hard to manage in confined dungeon space with fast action combat.
Having multi class is fine, but is only been a requirement due to bad class balance and design. Make tank less taunty and healers less specailsed and dps more supportive, but most importantly make classes enjoyable and balanced so people will play a good mix.
Me personally, I'll stick with the Trinity til someone makes something better that works
I like the trinity myself, but I am not going to rant, throw a hissy fit, and tell them that their game's combat sucks, without seeing it and playing it.
I worry about the game being too casual, but I can't say it will be, or make a post saying it is, when me nor anyone else has played it or knows.
I didn't like any GW2 class I tried, and I thought that the game was too cluttered, if EQN delivers the same, I won't be playing it. I have liked games without a trinity before, UO is one of my top 2 mmos of all time, and it didn't. I gotta wait and see.
I donated to Pantheon, because I miss trinity play, enchanter type classes, and loved VG/EQ, but I don't refuse to play something if it is made by company 'x'.
Easily. It many fantasy settings it was the mages that created the dragons in the first place. In other settings mages are in control of the dragons. It yet other settings there are mages that have a staff in one hand, a sword in the other and scream out things like "You shall not pass" to Balrogs that were Maiar and thus more powerful than dragons.
Immersion is a funny thing.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/