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Scaleable Combat?

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  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by Rusque

    Mob scaling sucks imo.

    It always sounds like it will increase longevity, but in practice it just makes you constantly feel like you haven't progressed. Nothing sadder than being max level, having defeated some major enemy in a raid or w/e and then facing down a  wolf that takes all of your effort to slay. It's just annoying.

    Part of the fun of RPG's is that your character develops, grows stronger and in turn, encounters meaner, tougher foes. Your reward for leveling is that you are presented with bigger fish to fry. Start by killing a rat, end by killing a dragon.  But with scaling mobs, you kill the dragon and then the rat is just as strong as the dragon and the entire world feels lame.

    I think like with most any mechanic there are good and bad ways to apply it. If your playing a game that applies it to that extreme (though this seems like a grave exaggeration to me, and I can't think of one I have played at least that does this). Then your probably playing a game that has applied the idea poorly.

     

    It could be used well throughout the game if done right I am thinking. Like...

    If scaling degraded over time. For instance in fighting a monster that you never have fought before. If you had a -x0.3 modifier on your damage output and the monster had a x1.2 modifier to it's hp. In the first instance of combat the monster has with this example 20% more hp than normal. And, your attacks do 30% less damage then they would unmodified. But, as you fight both modifiers level out to zero.

    Say after the 10th instance of combat, the hp modifier on the monster drops to x1.1, And, your damage modifier climbs to -x0.2.

    By  the 15th instance of combat these have become x.0. and -x0.1 respectively.

    Around the 20th one you fight  they have leveled out.

    You can take this a step further and start giving the monster a -x0.1hp modifier and the player a x1.1 damage modifier around the 50th instance of combat. and around the 100th -x0.2 and x1.2 respectively.

    What all this would accomplish is a more organic experience in grinding. The first time you go to grind on a mob you will not be very proficient at killing it for the first 10-30 kills. after that you start doing some normal damage. And, keep going beyond this and you actually start doing bonus damage.

    It could be a mild influence that makes it feel like you have gotten better at fighting a monster aside from any levels you might gain doing so. the pace of combat starts a little cumbersome. but by the time you have almost reach your level goal off a monster you previously had not fought your killing it especially well (maybe even with a bonus exp multiplier) then some one who enters the same area and has never even seen this monster before. You would truly get better through practice in a way that makes sense.

    Lets say later down the line you want to go back and grind that monster again for some mats it drops. Well having fought it before maybe the monsters hp and your damage starts off at x0.0 and x0.0 (base) and as you go along your damage modifier actually climbs as the monsters hp modifier falls...because you revisited something you are already well versed in killing you didn't start off with a slight disadvantage. And it doesn't take you long to gain a clear advantage over it.

    A practical reason for doing this is so that players don't get cocky with something new and potentially dangerous. That they pace themselves a bit at first and give the initial nerf to their damage time to show them what this monster can really do over time. This can give the player a more solid knowledge through a more fluid experience of what a monster is capable of. and also give the player the time needed to find that perfect round of abilities that handles the monster best.

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  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Member CommonPosts: 485

    Skyrim, Fallout 3 and GW2 all use scaling type mechanics. I think they can work pretty well. There is still progression because usually the additional abilities of the character more then make up for the scaling. You feel pretty strong just mucking around the low level zones in GW2. Yes you could die but its unlikely.

    The major advantage is that the progression is not RIDICULOUS - like how in regular MMOs an 80th level guy could kill everything in a zone attacking him at once without any difficult.

     

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,119
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by FinalFikus


    Id rather progression be done differently. It's already the root of nearly all issues with mmorpgs.

     

    What progression system would you like? 

    i think same with him that current progression system need to change

     

    I like to see no more bound between progressions .

    Not something like at level X you wear Z gears , do Y quests and raid F dungeon.

    Level up only mean more stats to make you character grow stronger .

    Not need to level up 60 time to unlock level 60 dungeon or wear level 60 gears.

    As i do it many time from 1 to X again and again , that type of progression system become annoying.

     

    As for scalable combat , i don't think it work well with MMORPG and doubt it will be use more in future MMORPG.

    But it good for single player free roaming games like elder scroll games

     

    For MMORPGs , if you want combat more challenge , just give player less progression so it not ridiculous like player level 1 have 100 damage and 500 hp while level 60 get 10k damage and 100k HP and with next expansion pack , damage rise to 100k and hp go to over 1 million .

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158


    Originally posted by Helleri
    I just realized that combat scaling is in most MMORPG that I have played. It's just coming in a much more harsh form. Tiered Experience Gain.Example:You enter a low level area at level 9, the monsters in the area range from about 8-11 in level. Let's say the average experience you get per kill is 110xp and at your level you need 1525xp to get to level 10. You will need to kill 14 monsters in order to level. Each monster takes you about 45 seconds to kill. You should only be killing monsters for about 8-9 minutes (considering that you stop to heal a couple times or take a closer look at a drop). Later down the line, you are in another area at level 24. It will take you 89,000 experience to level to 25. The monsters your killing give 837xp per kill... but that take about 97 seconds to kill. Since a few levels ago you have had an AoE that you know could 1-2 hit monsters in the level 10 area...If you trained a mob in the level 10 area on yourself of about 15-20 monsters at a time, Used your AoE on them and waiting for their respawn to do it again. You could get a more experience quicker, then grinding the monsters meant for your level. (around 1650 per round, with 5 seconds to do and 30 second respawn would mean almost double the experience per minute).So, you go back to the level 10 area and try it out. And, you gain 150xp total for killing 15...wtf happened? Well you also notice instead of orange and red labeled like they were before they are now all grey labeled. You are out of the tier bracket for gaining efficient exp on them. only levels 9-12 can effectively use these monsters to level up. After that you are too strong and there is basically no more your character can learn from killing these. Aside, you notice 2-3 newbs are irate with you for taking their monsters. And, you realize...you have no place training here any more. It's for them, not you.This is fairly common in many MMORPG. It has the same effect as combat scaling. And, if does nerf your ability to do something. It just operates on experience rather then combat.Now, what if they had approached this differently. Say instead of nerfing the experience you can gain from these monsters, they simply add x1.3 modifier to their hp and a x-0.2 modifier to your damage output. In this case your level remains the same, as does the boars. What changes is your effectiveness at killing them. They are basically 50% more difficult to kill than they would have been without the modifier. Being stronger over all with a wider variety of skills now you still kill them much quicker then you did back at level 9-12. But, it slows you down just enough to where the experience gained isn't any better then grinding at your own level. It just a more relaxed way to get about the same amount of experience in the same amount of time. And, because you kill them slower, newbs are still able to compete. This also puts you in contact with players you wouldn't likely meet until you were both in the end game. And, maybe you can even help each other. If there are party scaling option for combat. You can use them to lower the difficulty of an instance dungeon you have been having a slightly slower time of it solo'ing then you would like to, and in return they will gain a lot more experience a lot quicker for having entered a dungeon with you that they could have normally never even handled as a team at their level.
    On paper that sounds cool, but what happens when one of the lower level characters attacks that "newly improved" monster? Or if you jump in to help a lower level character with their monster? You still have the problem of other players also in the zone with you.

    You need keep in mind that we are talking MMOs, not single player games (if there still is a difference) :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158


    Originally posted by waynejr2
    I didn't like GW2 sysetm were I dropped in level back at the lower level zones. 
    Same here. Here are 2 pix from GW2 that really pissed me off about their de-leveling scheme.

    Trolls from one zone.
    Same Trolls from the adjacent zone.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    [sorry messed the quoting up in this one and then made and published a new post before I realized that's what I did]

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  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    On paper that sounds cool, but what happens when one of the lower level characters attacks that "newly improved" monster? Or if you jump in to help a lower level character with their monster? You still have the problem of other players also in the zone with you.

     

    You need keep in mind that we are talking MMOs, not single player games (if there still is a difference) :)

     

    Well I didn't mean "newly" improved monster.

    This wouldn't be something -much like most things suggested on this forum, given a lot of them would too radically change existing games- that I would advocate for an existing MMORPG. Rather, it is a feature I wouldn't mind seeing in a game from the start (future games).

     

    In basic combat training, a newb would be told that they will start out not so good, while training on a new monster. But that they will become more effective as they go. Eventually even pushing past base damage into bonus damage. Which is what makes the system worth it. A bonus you have to pay an initial toll to get ...in a sense. The guy that is there for a few quick sloppy kills to get a common drop for a recipe isn't going to do as well per kill, as the newb who has been grinding them for 30 minutes to an hour, in order to gain levels. So, I don't see a newb jumping into fight something new being a problem, as tutorial mode could be used to stress that point.



    You do bring up a very good point about interference.

    That would be hard to resolve mechanically (if we leave the concept as is). To aid in adapting this into an idea that can work...We can drop the modifier on the monster and just keep the modifier on the player. Especially when thinking about it more that seems reasonable out of just being sensical... A mob wouldn't get weaker or stronger as you go. But it would reasonable to assume that a player would become more proficient at dealing with a mob the longer they grind it.



    Additionally I am also thinking now, that not every monster should be identical... Instead of a boar spawning with 200 hp. It should spawn with a random amount of hp bound between something like 199-259. This means that the player will want to keep one skill aside from their standard round. So, you would see a bit more of that "hmmm...that didn't quite kill it" that you usually see already from just getting a bad roll on your damages. You can even vary the spawn times slightly.



    This would keep it from ever being a cold calculation in a grind like: "If I stand right here and rotate 90° every 13 seconds in targeting, after killing each thing on it's spawn in turn with these 3 attacks in round, I will level in exactly x minutes. And, get between x amount and x amount in drops."
     


    If you can never make a grind a clockwork thing. You will need to pay a bit more attention. If the longer your there the better your experience gain gets, you will likely feel it's worth doing more then if this was not the case. Little scalings here and there. It can make grinds more dynamic and more interesting overall. I really think so.

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