And a lot of these games were sub games and turned to F2P. So in other words, a sub payment model could not support a game but, oh yeah, those guys playing for free can! LOL
The trouble with F2P is many fold. Too many for me to detail this late at night.
You think F2P games are supported by people playing them for free? Do you really believe that? Or is it instead, that a combination of advertising and designing content to attract a specific form of paying customer is what supports those games?
Yes its late at night and there are so many falsehoods and misconceptions in your post it is hard to know where to begin.
Never said anything about non paying players supporting a game. What I said was they keep the population up which is generally a good thing in an MMO, I am sure even you will agree. I know you will try the "they are all console kiddies" thing here again, but I will just ignore that misconception.
And when they decide to make a game I am sure they are thinking about many things not the least of which is creating a game people will want to play and hopefully spend money in. Same as a P2P game. No more no less.
So you are saying no F2P games have fun design or content?? Ok sure Foe, it must be true.
And who is getting fleeced when they are making the choiced to spend their money? You choose to spend your money on a sub, are you getting fleeced? ( I would say yes but that is just me) No you are choosing to pay the sub just as someone is choosing to use a cash shop. I am pretty sure they can do math too and are aware how much they are spending. If not it is plainly there on their credit card. Not the definition of fleecing in my book.
The amount of bias you people have is just incredible. Constantly amazes me.
The first line in the quote above is you stating that guys playing free can support a game LOL.
Your words.
Fun Design and Content: I have tried many, and was especially let down by NWN. Cashing out for items. Not a fun design to me.
The designers of a "F2P" model focus designing content on how they can get people to monetize while they play. Simple deduction.
The designers of a sub model focus on designing content intended to keep players playing and that is most often achieved by creating content a majority of players find "fun".
Edit: As for the fleecing, I refer to documented evidence that gamers tend to spend more on F2P per player than they do on Subs. Also, please note I used fleece and not robbed. The fool and his money again?
Do you have any idea what context means? i said they support the game by supplying needed population numbers. Not by supporting it financially. Both are benficial. But different. Context. Understand now?
I won't deny monetization is part of making an F2P game. But it is hardly all. You first need a game that people will be willing to pay for. Same as P2P. Simple deduction.
Same goes for designing content. No difference.
And last point, who are you to tell us how to spend our money? I could care less if you prefer a sub model and personally I don't care what the payment model is in a game that I want to play. If I don't like the payment model I won't play it. Same if I don't like the game.
In any case enjoy whatever games you are playing. Thats really all that matters.
But by the same token, if you are not willing to pay anything in a game you enjoy playing, then why would anyone, developers or other players alike, be all that bothered if you stopped, your contribution would have been zero, while taking as much as you could. in no way at all did you benefit other players or the game itself, if anything your presence might even have had a deleterious effect on the game.
Originally posted by Kyleran No matter what F2P model a game uses, if you really are playing it totally free you are doing it wrong.
How are you doing it wrong? I've never paid a dime in any F2P game, I've gotten whatever enjoyment out of the game I wanted and moved on. I did just fine. Who died and named you dictator of right and wrong?
If you can't see how a proper buyer / seller relationship should work where the seller receives fair market value for services rendered, then there's no discussing it with you.
No one should ever receive anything for free, (well, except children) even if others are willing to pay for it you should not be willing to accept it, you should want to pull your own weight.
It's a pride thing, not everyone has it however.
And yes, I do judge people, and find them frequently wanting.
You simply keep asserting that the model you prefer is the "correct" model. There are no "correct" models. There are choices that the developers and owners of the games choose and people will play various models, based on the quality of the games. All you're doing is saying that if people won't agree with you, then you don't want to play because you have no way of objectively defending your choices and preferences. That's sad.
In the real world, we all receive things "for free". Broadcast television is "free". They put advertising on the air but you are not required to buy the products, nor even to watch the ads. Advertisers are buying potential eyes, not active participants. That television is free to you. These games are also free to you. Sure, the producers are trying to sell you something but you have no obligation whatsoever to actually buy it.
If you can't understand the realities of life over your own wishful thinking, I don't know what to tell you.
A model where some people can tax a server and not pay a cent to be on it is wrong. A model where you're manipulated into spending money, buying content over again, and being gated from your enjoyment is wrong.
So let's take your concept one step further - let's have ads in games. Then we can all be one happy free family. And better yet, you have to pay to get rid of them. You have to pay to not be annoyed, rather just paying a box fee or a subscription fee.
By every single moral measure, f2p is inferior to p2p and b2p. Kyrelan is 100% right.
Then go complain to the developers, they're the ones that set up the system and they're the ones paying for it. I suspect they'll tell you and your complaint where to go. Talk about entitlement, you expect everyone to dance to your tune and do what you think they ought to do.
Yes its late at night and there are so many falsehoods and misconceptions in your post it is hard to know where to begin.
Never said anything about non paying players supporting a game. What I said was they keep the population up which is generally a good thing in an MMO, I am sure even you will agree. I know you will try the "they are all console kiddies" thing here again, but I will just ignore that misconception.
And when they decide to make a game I am sure they are thinking about many things not the least of which is creating a game people will want to play and hopefully spend money in. Same as a P2P game. No more no less.
So you are saying no F2P games have fun design or content?? Ok sure Foe, it must be true.
And who is getting fleeced when they are making the choiced to spend their money? You choose to spend your money on a sub, are you getting fleeced? ( I would say yes but that is just me) No you are choosing to pay the sub just as someone is choosing to use a cash shop. I am pretty sure they can do math too and are aware how much they are spending. If not it is plainly there on their credit card. Not the definition of fleecing in my book.
The amount of bias you people have is just incredible. Constantly amazes me.
The first line in the quote above is you stating that guys playing free can support a game LOL.
Your words.
Fun Design and Content: I have tried many, and was especially let down by NWN. Cashing out for items. Not a fun design to me.
The designers of a "F2P" model focus designing content on how they can get people to monetize while they play. Simple deduction.
The designers of a sub model focus on designing content intended to keep players playing and that is most often achieved by creating content a majority of players find "fun".
Edit: As for the fleecing, I refer to documented evidence that gamers tend to spend more on F2P per player than they do on Subs. Also, please note I used fleece and not robbed. The fool and his money again?
Do you have any idea what context means? i said they support the game by supplying needed population numbers. Not by supporting it financially. Both are benficial. But different. Context. Understand now?
I won't deny monetization is part of making an F2P game. But it is hardly all. You first need a game that people will be willing to pay for. Same as P2P. Simple deduction.
Same goes for designing content. No difference.
And last point, who are you to tell us how to spend our money? I could care less if you prefer a sub model and personally I don't care what the payment model is in a game that I want to play. If I don't like the payment model I won't play it. Same if I don't like the game.
In any case enjoy whatever games you are playing. Thats really all that matters.
But by the same token, if you are not willing to pay anything in a game you enjoy playing, then why would anyone, developers or other players alike, be all that bothered if you stopped, your contribution would have been zero, while taking as much as you could. in no way at all did you benefit other players or the game itself, if anything your presence might even have had a deleterious effect on the game.
Well that would seem pretty obvious to me Phry. As long as you are in their game and playing it, there is always the chance that you will spend money correct? If you are not playing the game then what do you suppose the chance of them making money off you is? Correct zero percent. Now if you were a business person what would you prefer to have? No chance or at least a possible chance.
Please explain, the last line of your post. That makes no sense to me.
Finally I will defend F2P games and peoples right to choose the pay system of their choice. But don't assume that I and many others that do defend them, feel that it is a perfect system. Not in the least. I find Swtor's very annoying. And Lotor long ago "suckered" me into paying for their free game. But I still have paid probably less than 3 months sub for the game and have been playing for 6 months. Not likely I will need to spend much more. The best I have found has been Fallen Earth. You can play the entire game without paying a dime, except for cosmetics and space etc. I almost feel they are giving too much in that game for free. So no they are not all equal and some are better than others.
But this crazy attitude that F2P is the devils playground and that it is the root cause of all evil in MMO design is just nuts. People need to get their heads out of the sand and just get back to playing. And realize that MMO's, like everything else are not perfect and never wil be.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
It is not that gamers suddenly felt entitled to FREE content but the demand for FREE stuff has broader social context that is far beyond the scope of gaming and MMOs. It was more like the other way around where gamers thought their industry was so special they could ignore these broader FREE trends forever.
The issue at hand was that gaming industry was very behind the curve when it comes to FREE transitions. I remember back in the early days of the internet when you had to Pay for your internet browser. I also used a paid email service between 1997-2002 called swirvemail. It had all the features that G-mail has now except it was in the 90s and you had to pay $19.99 a year for it. It was worth every penny to avoid using the dreadful POP3 protocol and Outlook express that exposed the PC to worms and viruses. Then Yahoo offered the FREE email and paid email pretty much disappeared. Internet Explorer and FireFox killed the paid browser. Times changed.
When FREE MMOs started appearing there came this huge opposition. Really what makes MMOs so special that it could only be a paid service? Games are just like any other piece of FREE software on the internet. I look back on my old subscription MMOs like I do my paid email service and browser. Yes, they were nice for the time but those days are over. You can't live in the past. It is time to move along. The free games are NOT horrible. There is plenty of fun to be had in the F2P era as there was in the paid 2 play past.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take?
Right. When I get a coupon for a free Big Mac, I expect a free Big Mac, not a free bun, $1 for a pickle, $2,99 for a piece of meat (that you have to move the pickle to see), $1 for lettuce, another dollar for cheeses, and $1 for special sauce. When you advertise something for free, it should be free. Call a spade a spade. "Free" does npt mean "nickel and dimed to death."
Wrong!
You get the Big Mac.
The drink and fries are extra, bro! Cmon people, get your silly analogies right!
Nope. Star Wars, aka the Big Mac is one product. Your analogy would be like getting Star Wars free, but Crysis 3 and Battlefield 4 is extra, bro! EA advertises the entire product as "free to play." If they only advertised space combat as free, you'd have a point.
There's no fricking point to any of your analogies Bro! We get that there are things you buy in F2P games. It might be the coke or it might be the fries. Point is : who gives a shit!!
Maybe next time you can come up with something more interesting than another this is free but you have to pay for that analogy. Its so old and so very tiresome.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
I don't have a problem with paying for things, but real money shouldn't be intruding in games unless the game is free to play. The game should always offer and option for a monthly fee so you can have access to everything as long as you pay it. I also don't believe in games where you buy your way to the top. The practices reek of greed. I realize it's expensive to live these days, but part of why it's expensive is because people are trying to charge people for everything now. It makes things hard on everyone and it sets for a vicious cycle where people try to get more and more money. That's all they they care about.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
Excellent +2
Plus, it is moot .. many MMOs are going free, and silly analogy (like big mac) aside, I *can* play a large part of many games for free, and i do.
And if the devs let me do that, for whatever reason, I am more than happy to take advantage of it. It is as simple as that.
Originally posted by Kyleran No matter what F2P model a game uses, if you really are playing it totally free you are doing it wrong.
How are you doing it wrong? I've never paid a dime in any F2P game, I've gotten whatever enjoyment out of the game I wanted and moved on. I did just fine. Who died and named you dictator of right and wrong?
If you can't see how a proper buyer / seller relationship should work where the seller receives fair market value for services rendered, then there's no discussing it with you.
No one should ever receive anything for free, (well, except children) even if others are willing to pay for it you should not be willing to accept it, you should want to pull your own weight.
It's a pride thing, not everyone has it however.
And yes, I do judge people, and find them frequently wanting.
You simply keep asserting that the model you prefer is the "correct" model. There are no "correct" models. There are choices that the developers and owners of the games choose and people will play various models, based on the quality of the games. All you're doing is saying that if people won't agree with you, then you don't want to play because you have no way of objectively defending your choices and preferences. That's sad.
In the real world, we all receive things "for free". Broadcast television is "free". They put advertising on the air but you are not required to buy the products, nor even to watch the ads. Advertisers are buying potential eyes, not active participants. That television is free to you. These games are also free to you. Sure, the producers are trying to sell you something but you have no obligation whatsoever to actually buy it.
If you can't understand the realities of life over your own wishful thinking, I don't know what to tell you.
A model where some people can tax a server and not pay a cent to be on it is wrong. A model where you're manipulated into spending money, buying content over again, and being gated from your enjoyment is wrong.
So let's take your concept one step further - let's have ads in games. Then we can all be one happy free family. And better yet, you have to pay to get rid of them. You have to pay to not be annoyed, rather just paying a box fee or a subscription fee.
By every single moral measure, f2p is inferior to p2p and b2p. Kyrelan is 100% right.
Then go complain to the developers, they're the ones that set up the system and they're the ones paying for it. I suspect they'll tell you and your complaint where to go. Talk about entitlement, you expect everyone to dance to your tune and do what you think they ought to do.
A lot of people are getting way off topic. Arguing about whether a lot of players have an excessive sense of entitlement in many F2P games is not the same thing as arguing whether there should be F2P games, or whether Freemium should be considered the same thing as F2P. It's not about whether a given model is good or bad. It's about whether a subset of players engage in a specific type of bad behavior within those games.
Since someone brought in the fact that lots of industries offer free stuff, let's look at that. With the McDonald's example of a free Big Mac, what do we think of the people who come into the store and say they don't like Big Macs, but they would like some McNuggets, and since the Big Macs were getting given away for free anyway, why not give them the McNuggets free too? When told they won't be getting the McNuggets free, they then proceed to hang out in the store for hours whining to anyone who will listen that McDonald's is run by greedy jerks because they won't give out free McNuggets in addition to the free Big Macs.
When asked what McDonald's should charge for, since somewhere deep down in their pea-brains they understand the company does have to make money, one of them says, "I don't like Diet Coke. They should charge for that." The next says, "No, I like Diet Coke, that should be free. They should charge for the apple pie, I hate apple pie." Synthesize all of their opinions and try to arrive at a universal rule, the only one you could come up with would be "Give away what people want for free, only charge for what people don't want." That is not a viable business plan.
So long story short, yes, many free players act too entitled. That isn't a problem with the games, or the business model, they are probably the same worthless jerks who act obnoxious and entitled in every aspect of their lives.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
Excellent +2
Plus, it is moot .. many MMOs are going free, and silly analogy (like big mac) aside, I *can* play a large part of many games for free, and i do.
And if the devs let me do that, for whatever reason, I am more than happy to take advantage of it. It is as simple as that.
These are paid for by advertising, just as the TV channels you watch are (that is how your fee is covered).
Your experience is not paid for by other players.
The examples you give are not remotely synonymous to mine.
Originally posted by LittleBootI keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
Watch the video and learn that the whole "entitlement" idea is flawed.
It's not about entitlement, it's about fairness.
Equal pay = equal benefits, or the reaction seen in the video happens.
It also explains why elitist act the way they do, when say a LFR player gets a new shiny, and the elitist heroic raider feels he lost his own toy.
Simple animal behavior of the haves and have nots bickering over matter (and matter that is only good for a 6 months top at that!).
Once you get off the gear rollercoaster, the game is better enjoyed for other reasons -- and in WoW, for me, is transmorg and revisiting older content. Careless watching monkeys cry over getting a cucumber or grape for 2 years each expansion.
In those examples above (Google, Twitter, etc.), users aren't paying anything because they are the product. I'm not sure if it's working the same way with MMORPGs. Then again, free players are providing a lot of demographic information to developers in what they like to do, and what they don't like to do. Developers aren't necessarily selling this information to anyone, but I'm a little surprised that games haven't shown up with that purpose in mind. Maybe not. Those games would probably be bad.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In those examples above (Google, Twitter, etc.), users aren't paying anything because they are the product. I'm not sure if it's working the same way with MMORPGs. Then again, free players are providing a lot of demographic information to developers in what they like to do, and what they don't like to do. Developers aren't necessarily selling this information to anyone, but I'm a little surprised that games haven't shown up with that purpose in mind. Maybe not. Those games would probably be bad.
In other words, Google, Facebook and YouTube are ad supported. It's a completely different model to what F2P MMOs use. F2P is "sucker supported" (you can say "whale" if you want but I call these people suckers)
Watch the video and learn that the whole "entitlement" idea is flawed.
It's not about entitlement, it's about fairness.
Fairness, seriously? What's unfair about "the more you pay, the more you get?" It would only become a fairness issue if two players were spending the exact same amount of money, and one was receiving substantially better service in return. By definition, as long as all the players in a given tier are being treated the same (all free players, all subscribers, etc. etc.) then they are being treated fairly.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
In those examples above (Google, Twitter, etc.), users aren't paying anything because they are the product. I'm not sure if it's working the same way with MMORPGs. Then again, free players are providing a lot of demographic information to developers in what they like to do, and what they don't like to do. Developers aren't necessarily selling this information to anyone, but I'm a little surprised that games haven't shown up with that purpose in mind. Maybe not. Those games would probably be bad.
Free players are doing a lot more than that, they are providing content for the whales. The whales want to play in a big populated world where they can show off all of the crap they buy. That's why free players are there, to provide the eyes to look at the whale's high credit limits. Without the free players, the whales would go elsewhere.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
Excellent +2
Plus, it is moot .. many MMOs are going free, and silly analogy (like big mac) aside, I *can* play a large part of many games for free, and i do.
And if the devs let me do that, for whatever reason, I am more than happy to take advantage of it. It is as simple as that.
What's silly is F2P players are still paying for it...and for more $$$$.
There's no such thing as a free lunch with corporate, you will pay something at sometime. It just looks free.
Sidenote: I finally tried out Facebook, and got to say for a free service I wasn't missing anything, and will ask Facebook to permanently delete my account (and my presence on their network forever). It's UI makes EvE's UI look grand -- left sided navigational panel is a F- and something very basic in web design not to do for max accessibility. It's a capital sin.
Watch the video and learn that the whole "entitlement" idea is flawed.
It's not about entitlement, it's about fairness.
Fairness, seriously? What's unfair about "the more you pay, the more you get?" It would only become a fairness issue if two players were spending the exact same amount of money, and one was receiving substantially better service in return. By definition, as long as all the players in a given tier are being treated the same (all free players, all subscribers, etc. etc.) then they are being treated fairly.
Dead serious.
You apparently don't understand the premise of that video, nor the *reaction*. The very *reaction* you're showing by asking me the question.
It's not about "more you pay, the more you get". It's about if A gets something B doesn't have, there's a cry of unfairness. And it's so universal most if not all mammals apparently display that tendency (as the video said the experiment was replicated with dogs and even birds).
The *reaction* you're showing is the issue. You're the monkey on the left of the video, upset that the monkey on the right is fine with his reward. Despite the monkey on the right is doing the same task...he just gets a different reward.
Free players are doing a lot more than that, they are providing content for the whales. The whales want to play in a big populated world where they can show off all of the crap they buy. That's why free players are there, to provide the eyes to look at the whale's high credit limits. Without the free players, the whales would go elsewhere.
Setting aside whether your point is correct, what does it have to do with whether some free players act excessively entitled?
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I keep reading threads and comments whereby F2P players feel aggrieved that they are not receiving enough free content.
In what other walk of life and with what other product would this be an acceptable stance to take? Many mmo's cost many millions to develop and that money has to be recouped somehow (and they need to turn a profit for their funders or they would not exist in the first place). Where, do you suggest, should this money be recovered from?
My view is simply this, a F2P player who makes no financial contribution to a game is in no position to complain about the free content they may or may not be receiving.
A player who pays a subscription, as with all other walks of life, should experience a discernibly improved experience over a player who pays nothing.
Now don't get me wrong, if a monetization model allows a game to sell aesthetic items only, then great. But if it does not then a free player should quit complaining and move on.
As it stands the free content received by F2P players is paid for by a few whales who use the cash shop. Free players should be thankful that there are items in the cash shop other players are prepared to buy or there would be no game and no content for them to experience at all.
They are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?
Quite frankly, I agree to this to a point. If people want high quality tripple A games, they should be expected to have to pay up. NOTHING IS FREE IN THE WORLD, SORRY. The problem is, free to play MMORPG's have been around for quite some time, people are wanting content to be free, even developing content. I have played both free to play and pay to play games. It takes time and money for companies to develop new content. If a game were to be completely free, where the hell are they getting their money? The problem with FTP model is that the business makers must come up with a way to make the cash shops equal, yet profitable. If the cash shop is not profitable enough for the company, then they must make incentives, thus, making the full experience of the game not really free, and then people will start bitching.
When you buy a console, you also have to buy the game that the developers made. How else do they get money to keep on being a buisness?? Even though MMORPGs are internet based, the concept still remains. The company needs money to pay people to develop more content.
Sure, we all want free things, afterall, its free. But here's the reality of things: Even though it is a GAME, there are still people in the real world who made that game, and it is the real world that is supplying the game with updates. Thus, we gotta pay up, because there is no escaping the reality that money drives the world.
Now on a pay to play note, I do think that the monthly subscriptions can be a bit demanding. $13/month is roughly $156 a year. If a company also has cash shop items, thats even more. Although, from most of the pay to play games I tried, there were no cash shops as everything you'd find in one was already available in the game. In addition, with free to play games, people easily spend hundreds within a year due to the cash shops advertisement and supplies which give players boosts. Because, let's be honest: who doesn't want to have the best supplies available to them? Players will become very immersed in a game, and most make spur of the moment purchases from the cash shops without analyzing.
Watch the video and learn that the whole "entitlement" idea is flawed.
It's not about entitlement, it's about fairness.
Fairness, seriously? What's unfair about "the more you pay, the more you get?" It would only become a fairness issue if two players were spending the exact same amount of money, and one was receiving substantially better service in return. By definition, as long as all the players in a given tier are being treated the same (all free players, all subscribers, etc. etc.) then they are being treated fairly.
Dead serious.
You apparently don't understand the premise of that video, nor the *reaction*. The very *reaction* you're showing by asking me the question.
It's not about "more you pay, the more you get". It's about if A gets something B doesn't have, there's a cry of unfairness. And it's so universal most if not all mammals apparently display that tendency (as the video said the experiment was replicated with dogs and even birds).
The *reaction* you're showing is the issue. You're the monkey on the left of the video, upset that the monkey on the right is fine with his reward. Despite the monkey on the right is doing the same task...he just gets a different reward.
Get it yet?
Imagine an IP like, I dunno, Star Wars, instead of a grape. It's all throughout the model.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
It is not that gamers suddenly felt entitled to FREE content but the demand for FREE stuff has broader social context that is far beyond the scope of gaming and MMOs. It was more like the other way around where gamers thought their industry was so special they could ignore these broader FREE trends forever.
The issue at hand was that gaming industry was very behind the curve when it comes to FREE transitions. I remember back in the early days of the internet when you had to Pay for your internet browser. I also used a paid email service between 1997-2002 called swirvemail. It had all the features that G-mail has now except it was in the 90s and you had to pay $19.99 a year for it. It was worth every penny to avoid using the dreadful POP3 protocol and Outlook express that exposed the PC to worms and viruses. Then Yahoo offered the FREE email and paid email pretty much disappeared. Internet Explorer and FireFox killed the paid browser. Times changed.
When FREE MMOs started appearing there came this huge opposition. Really what makes MMOs so special that it could only be a paid service? Games are just like any other piece of FREE software on the internet. I look back on my old subscription MMOs like I do my paid email service and browser. Yes, they were nice for the time but those days are over. You can't live in the past. It is time to move along. The free games are NOT horrible. There is plenty of fun to be had in the F2P era as there was in the paid 2 play past.
I remember free web and net zero. Free internet was pretty damn nice. You need to be ale to make more and more money off of the people using the service year after year. Wonder what happened...is there still free internet. I honestly don't know. I guess dial up is free maybe?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I remember free web and net zero. Free internet was pretty damn nice. You need to be ale to make more and more money off of the people using the service year after year. Wonder what happened...is there still free internet. I honestly don't know. I guess dial up is free maybe?
There is no "whales" for Free Internet. That is their problem.
Comments
But by the same token, if you are not willing to pay anything in a game you enjoy playing, then why would anyone, developers or other players alike, be all that bothered if you stopped, your contribution would have been zero, while taking as much as you could. in no way at all did you benefit other players or the game itself, if anything your presence might even have had a deleterious effect on the game.
Then go complain to the developers, they're the ones that set up the system and they're the ones paying for it. I suspect they'll tell you and your complaint where to go. Talk about entitlement, you expect everyone to dance to your tune and do what you think they ought to do.
Seriously?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Well that would seem pretty obvious to me Phry. As long as you are in their game and playing it, there is always the chance that you will spend money correct? If you are not playing the game then what do you suppose the chance of them making money off you is? Correct zero percent. Now if you were a business person what would you prefer to have? No chance or at least a possible chance.
Please explain, the last line of your post. That makes no sense to me.
Finally I will defend F2P games and peoples right to choose the pay system of their choice. But don't assume that I and many others that do defend them, feel that it is a perfect system. Not in the least. I find Swtor's very annoying. And Lotor long ago "suckered" me into paying for their free game. But I still have paid probably less than 3 months sub for the game and have been playing for 6 months. Not likely I will need to spend much more. The best I have found has been Fallen Earth. You can play the entire game without paying a dime, except for cosmetics and space etc. I almost feel they are giving too much in that game for free. So no they are not all equal and some are better than others.
But this crazy attitude that F2P is the devils playground and that it is the root cause of all evil in MMO design is just nuts. People need to get their heads out of the sand and just get back to playing. And realize that MMO's, like everything else are not perfect and never wil be.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
You can't be serious. THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST IRONIC POST I EVER READ.
Most of the entire internet is free including this very forum. The servers that host your little rant here don't pay for themselves you know. This forum is supported by ads 90% of which are for F2P games. Maybe MMORPG should charge for the privilege to post here instead.
Just for giggles lets look at some real world FREE business models and companies that use them.
1. Google - A multi-multi billion dollar company that provides FREE search features and paid advertising
2. FACEBOOK - Another multi billion dollar company that allows friends to locate each other online
3. Twitter - A FREE messaging service that is worth untold billions.
4. Youtube - FREE video hosting
5. Others such as Yahoo, Twitch, Hulu, VIMEO, etc all offer FREE services
In your world would these companies and services not exist? Or are your ideas living so far in the past they didn't even have electricity yet let alone the Internet.
Lets put this all in perspective for a moment. Once a year 100 million people will watch the Superbowl and advertisers will pay 2 - 3 million dollars for 30 seconds of ad space during the commercials. This is nothing special in the Internet age because every day 100 million people will use twitter and 1 billion people will use Google. TV commericals get all the attention but it is Internet advertising is where the real money is. It has been like this for a decade. So the next time you decide to rant about FREE games take a minute to step back and realize this is the internet where mostly everything is FREE.
Excellent!! +1
It makes me laugh because this is so obvious and yet it completely slipped past me, because I think we are just so used to all this free stuff that we don't even think about it.
But as soon as it rears its head in an MMO it is suddenly a horrible evil !!
Again thanks for pointing out the obvious to me!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It is not that gamers suddenly felt entitled to FREE content but the demand for FREE stuff has broader social context that is far beyond the scope of gaming and MMOs. It was more like the other way around where gamers thought their industry was so special they could ignore these broader FREE trends forever.
The issue at hand was that gaming industry was very behind the curve when it comes to FREE transitions. I remember back in the early days of the internet when you had to Pay for your internet browser. I also used a paid email service between 1997-2002 called swirvemail. It had all the features that G-mail has now except it was in the 90s and you had to pay $19.99 a year for it. It was worth every penny to avoid using the dreadful POP3 protocol and Outlook express that exposed the PC to worms and viruses. Then Yahoo offered the FREE email and paid email pretty much disappeared. Internet Explorer and FireFox killed the paid browser. Times changed.
When FREE MMOs started appearing there came this huge opposition. Really what makes MMOs so special that it could only be a paid service? Games are just like any other piece of FREE software on the internet. I look back on my old subscription MMOs like I do my paid email service and browser. Yes, they were nice for the time but those days are over. You can't live in the past. It is time to move along. The free games are NOT horrible. There is plenty of fun to be had in the F2P era as there was in the paid 2 play past.
There's no fricking point to any of your analogies Bro! We get that there are things you buy in F2P games. It might be the coke or it might be the fries. Point is : who gives a shit!!
Maybe next time you can come up with something more interesting than another this is free but you have to pay for that analogy. Its so old and so very tiresome.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't have a problem with paying for things, but real money shouldn't be intruding in games unless the game is free to play. The game should always offer and option for a monthly fee so you can have access to everything as long as you pay it. I also don't believe in games where you buy your way to the top. The practices reek of greed. I realize it's expensive to live these days, but part of why it's expensive is because people are trying to charge people for everything now. It makes things hard on everyone and it sets for a vicious cycle where people try to get more and more money. That's all they they care about.
Excellent +2
Plus, it is moot .. many MMOs are going free, and silly analogy (like big mac) aside, I *can* play a large part of many games for free, and i do.
And if the devs let me do that, for whatever reason, I am more than happy to take advantage of it. It is as simple as that.
Yes, seriously.
A lot of people are getting way off topic. Arguing about whether a lot of players have an excessive sense of entitlement in many F2P games is not the same thing as arguing whether there should be F2P games, or whether Freemium should be considered the same thing as F2P. It's not about whether a given model is good or bad. It's about whether a subset of players engage in a specific type of bad behavior within those games.
Since someone brought in the fact that lots of industries offer free stuff, let's look at that. With the McDonald's example of a free Big Mac, what do we think of the people who come into the store and say they don't like Big Macs, but they would like some McNuggets, and since the Big Macs were getting given away for free anyway, why not give them the McNuggets free too? When told they won't be getting the McNuggets free, they then proceed to hang out in the store for hours whining to anyone who will listen that McDonald's is run by greedy jerks because they won't give out free McNuggets in addition to the free Big Macs.
When asked what McDonald's should charge for, since somewhere deep down in their pea-brains they understand the company does have to make money, one of them says, "I don't like Diet Coke. They should charge for that." The next says, "No, I like Diet Coke, that should be free. They should charge for the apple pie, I hate apple pie." Synthesize all of their opinions and try to arrive at a universal rule, the only one you could come up with would be "Give away what people want for free, only charge for what people don't want." That is not a viable business plan.
So long story short, yes, many free players act too entitled. That isn't a problem with the games, or the business model, they are probably the same worthless jerks who act obnoxious and entitled in every aspect of their lives.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
These are paid for by advertising, just as the TV channels you watch are (that is how your fee is covered).
Your experience is not paid for by other players.
The examples you give are not remotely synonymous to mine.
Watch the video and learn that the whole "entitlement" idea is flawed.
It's not about entitlement, it's about fairness.
Equal pay = equal benefits, or the reaction seen in the video happens.
It also explains why elitist act the way they do, when say a LFR player gets a new shiny, and the elitist heroic raider feels he lost his own toy.
Simple animal behavior of the haves and have nots bickering over matter (and matter that is only good for a 6 months top at that!).
Once you get off the gear rollercoaster, the game is better enjoyed for other reasons -- and in WoW, for me, is transmorg and revisiting older content. Careless watching monkeys cry over getting a cucumber or grape for 2 years each expansion.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
In those examples above (Google, Twitter, etc.), users aren't paying anything because they are the product. I'm not sure if it's working the same way with MMORPGs. Then again, free players are providing a lot of demographic information to developers in what they like to do, and what they don't like to do. Developers aren't necessarily selling this information to anyone, but I'm a little surprised that games haven't shown up with that purpose in mind. Maybe not. Those games would probably be bad.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In other words, Google, Facebook and YouTube are ad supported. It's a completely different model to what F2P MMOs use. F2P is "sucker supported" (you can say "whale" if you want but I call these people suckers)
Fairness, seriously? What's unfair about "the more you pay, the more you get?" It would only become a fairness issue if two players were spending the exact same amount of money, and one was receiving substantially better service in return. By definition, as long as all the players in a given tier are being treated the same (all free players, all subscribers, etc. etc.) then they are being treated fairly.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Free players are doing a lot more than that, they are providing content for the whales. The whales want to play in a big populated world where they can show off all of the crap they buy. That's why free players are there, to provide the eyes to look at the whale's high credit limits. Without the free players, the whales would go elsewhere.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
What's silly is F2P players are still paying for it...and for more $$$$.
There's no such thing as a free lunch with corporate, you will pay something at sometime. It just looks free.
Sidenote: I finally tried out Facebook, and got to say for a free service I wasn't missing anything, and will ask Facebook to permanently delete my account (and my presence on their network forever). It's UI makes EvE's UI look grand -- left sided navigational panel is a F- and something very basic in web design not to do for max accessibility. It's a capital sin.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Dead serious.
You apparently don't understand the premise of that video, nor the *reaction*. The very *reaction* you're showing by asking me the question.
It's not about "more you pay, the more you get". It's about if A gets something B doesn't have, there's a cry of unfairness. And it's so universal most if not all mammals apparently display that tendency (as the video said the experiment was replicated with dogs and even birds).
The *reaction* you're showing is the issue. You're the monkey on the left of the video, upset that the monkey on the right is fine with his reward. Despite the monkey on the right is doing the same task...he just gets a different reward.
Get it yet?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Quite frankly, I agree to this to a point. If people want high quality tripple A games, they should be expected to have to pay up. NOTHING IS FREE IN THE WORLD, SORRY. The problem is, free to play MMORPG's have been around for quite some time, people are wanting content to be free, even developing content. I have played both free to play and pay to play games. It takes time and money for companies to develop new content. If a game were to be completely free, where the hell are they getting their money? The problem with FTP model is that the business makers must come up with a way to make the cash shops equal, yet profitable. If the cash shop is not profitable enough for the company, then they must make incentives, thus, making the full experience of the game not really free, and then people will start bitching.
When you buy a console, you also have to buy the game that the developers made. How else do they get money to keep on being a buisness?? Even though MMORPGs are internet based, the concept still remains. The company needs money to pay people to develop more content.
Sure, we all want free things, afterall, its free. But here's the reality of things: Even though it is a GAME, there are still people in the real world who made that game, and it is the real world that is supplying the game with updates. Thus, we gotta pay up, because there is no escaping the reality that money drives the world.
Now on a pay to play note, I do think that the monthly subscriptions can be a bit demanding. $13/month is roughly $156 a year. If a company also has cash shop items, thats even more. Although, from most of the pay to play games I tried, there were no cash shops as everything you'd find in one was already available in the game. In addition, with free to play games, people easily spend hundreds within a year due to the cash shops advertisement and supplies which give players boosts. Because, let's be honest: who doesn't want to have the best supplies available to them? Players will become very immersed in a game, and most make spur of the moment purchases from the cash shops without analyzing.
Imagine an IP like, I dunno, Star Wars, instead of a grape. It's all throughout the model.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I remember free web and net zero. Free internet was pretty damn nice. You need to be ale to make more and more money off of the people using the service year after year. Wonder what happened...is there still free internet. I honestly don't know. I guess dial up is free maybe?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
There is no "whales" for Free Internet. That is their problem.