Thats not how business works! No one is promised any money. You give the people, consumers what they want FIRST, hope you met their expectations, then at the end they pay you for your hard work. If the expectations arent met or the quality is crap, no doe. Just because you dev a game and do some things right doesnt mean I need to help keep you in business. The MMO market is one of those rare markets where we, as the consumer, do determine as a whole whether or not to keep a company afloat. And quite frankly, my money takes too much to acquire to just give it to some half-baked group of devs. No, you design first and put your vision in code, then sell it to me and hope I agree with your idea and a product - idc if there are some good points.
I could personally care less what most of these MMO crybabies want!
I agree 100% with OP
You don't like it, that's fine. Maybe they will make something for you next time. But every time they do you bitch and whine about it and fail to support it.
You reap what you sow peeps!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Lets make one thing clear. Critique is BIG. Its very important we are critical of games, that we can bring up points about its flaws and what is wrong about a game. That is how games IMPROVE by having the flaws pointed out rather then ignored in some sort of fanboi bliss.
That being said... yes... people have rediculous unrealistic expectations as well. Some people have some crazy idea that you can say "Have 1,000 people running in the same open area and have the game play smoothly" or have a "Fully sandbox world were everything can be changed and will keep some sort of order" both completely impossible to handle and would never work as 'good' as their minds imagine it. Like a big one i hear is "No instances" yet people expect the content to somehow be challenging when anyone can run in killing that stuff.
People just don't understand (whether ignoring logic or not understanding coding/networking/system limitations) just how things work and just what CAN work. People demand for stuff that just wouldn't work, and set expectations stuff will work in some fantasy manor that just isn't plausible.
As in absolutely this! +++
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
How much cash is spent on implementing the cash shop and deciding all the various items and what will sell and what will make people angry. So now, time that would have been spent on developing the game is put into the monetization of it. Time is spent on creating appealing graphics to make people want to use the store. How many hours of code is made to lock players out of things that they haven't purchased. Again, their choice.
Except that's what companies do, they spend time looking into their product and figuring out how to monetize it, how to "sell it" and who will buy it AND how that product is going to fit into their product pipeline as well as how to support it and how to end it when a new product comes along to take its place.
It takes time and money to figure these things out regardless of whether you are selling video games, gps systems or software that provides analytics to various companies that might be interested, it's all part of the process.
So once again, we have gamers who think that selling video games is all about making a game and then putting out a sign saying "for sale".
Or are you saying that you would make a product and release it and just post some "we've released" on some website and sit back to watch the money roll in?
If a business is going to "be a business" they are going to have to spend time monetizing their product. And in the case of a cash shop game, all of that is factored into the development of the game.
edti: I've sat in on many meetings just talking about releasing new products and it's not a quick thing, a lot of work, time and money goes into it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't complain about understanding your game's appeal, my complaint is about time spent to twist the game to fit the items for sale. When there is a sub, nothing is for sale but the game and the gameplay is what is judged.
Well, that is another thing entirely.
So on one hand we have companies figuring out how to monetize their game, who to market it to, etc. As my post above.
But if you are simply talking about "twisting" the game to fit into a cash shop, well then that does happen and I think it's horrible.
Or better said, adding items and services that would not be in the game if they had a sub but are added because they know people will buy them.
I sometimes joke about the adding of a "new hat" in order to get people to buy:
It's one of the reasons I don't like the f2p "cash shop" system. This is not to say that I don't mind cosmetics but the more I play, say, lotro the more cheap the whole thing has started to feel.
So I think, if I'm understanding you, your qualm is that these games are not being developed into full fledged games with ever evolving systems/game play, areas, etc but instead are simply a method to sell shit in the shop. To be true, this is what many asian f2p games do.
There is an interview with a developer, a controversial character, where he explains how the asian developers (or perhaps publsihers?) create their games and that they have certain expectations for servers, they always open new servers and in the end once their game has run its course for making money they shut it down and peddle a new one.
On that point i can agree.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Look on the bright side, if we complain and stick around, is it not better than staying quiet and going elsewhere!
Doing so, would doom a game and the devs would have no clue as to what they need to do to fix it!
What they said.
You need to know why a game is failing so that problems can be addressed and fixed. You need to know what the players want so that you can give it to them.
Sometimes . . . just sometimes, the rage quiters can give you a clue about issues that you need to be aware of.
Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by KamofilaI see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game.
Without any examples of what you consider unreasonable, it's hard to judge if your expectations for expectations are reasonable. How about people demanding super smart enemy AI and have no idea at all what it would take to implement high level AI into an MMO.
High level AI is very computational demanding and unpredictable and with MMOs the AI has to be calculated server side.
Or how about people demanding huge seamless non-instanced non-zoned worlds with super high end graphics.
Do people really think that the graphics for video games are done fairies with magic coding wands? People play Skyrim and expect that level of graphics for MMOs but dont realize that Skyrim's world is a meager 16 square miles.
Or maybe the increasing demand from people that MMOs have all these features and be completely free of charge, lest they be deemed "greedy".
Because MMOs are a charity and only exist for our pleasure right?
Look on the bright side, if we complain and stick around, is it not better than staying quiet and going elsewhere!
Doing so, would doom a game and the devs would have no clue as to what they need to do to fix it!
What they said.
You need to know why a game is failing so that problems can be addressed and fixed. You need to know what the players want so that you can give it to them.
Sometimes . . . just sometimes, the rage quiters can give you a clue about issues that you need to be aware of.
Take it as you will.
And you don't think that there is a group of people who are always complaining about something, demanding something, just because that's "who they are"?
I remember an interview with a developer who was talking about making his game "free to play". A group of people complained and threatened to quit and they were making demands.
So the developer made the game free to play and who did they find were the people who spent the most money? Those who were demanding, complaining, etc.
However, the point is well taken in that "who should they be listening to?"
I'm not convinced that the "rage quitters" are a good barometer. As a matter of fact, no one who rants and raves and demands on a constant basis should be listened to.
It must be very difficult to find the "reasonable core" of your player base and figure out what is really wrong with your game. Or maybe it isn't? maybe all it takes is a thorough poll at login to really get a feel for what is going on.
If the majority are complaiing then sure, point taken. But if it's only that small vocal group then they can just be considered so much white noise.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game. I think as a community we need to step back and give devs a break.
I wholeheartedly believe our unreasonable expectation over that last few years have had a massive impact on the current state of mmo gaming. Devs forced to cut corners or compromise to deal with those expectations. We need to take games for what they are and praise the devs for the things they do right more than bash and crap all over them for the things we dislike (even though most wont/don't understand why such creative or design based decisions are made. Maybe then devs will actually be inspired to create the games we all have wishfully swirling around our overindulged egos, instead of trying to make everyone happy and therefore coming out with a game that is bland with no heart or soul.
Just my two cents (throw lit match on dry bush that is mmorpg.com)
We complain because all new releases since 2008 all look a like. MMORPG after MMORPG all look the same but with different titles and different class but in the end are the same. The market is saturated and over hyped games like TESO won't last with this market. Having been Bethesda I would of patched Skyrim for multi player functions instead of creating a whole new MMO that won't live up to the hype. Final Fantasy 14 : ARR is another example, sure the game is great and all having played almost 3 months myself but the grinding in this game is by far one of the most awful I've played. Quest / Story wise FF14 : ARR is the best I've played on a MMO.
Another problem people don't want to admit and I'm pretty sure you're one of them by the way you posted this thread, people think that F2P is the future for MMO's. On a stand alone basis, yea F2P can work, but on a MMO scale F2P will never work not with a game / economy breaking cash shop. It's funny how F2P releases are always flooded with people and after a month more then half leaves the game to play something else. The decisions Devs take on a F2P cash shop MMO is to force players to buy power potions or whatever down the road, because we're in a era where CO-OP in a MMORPG isn't allowed any more. It's all about being able to solo everything with no problem. That's where the MMO"RPG" genre is falling apart and rather quickly.
End of Nations was suppose to be one kick ass MMORTS, until Petroglyph got kicked out and now have a crappy unplayable game with lame game breaking heroes. At least we still got EndWar Online that won't be making the same mistake.
So before saying we don't know anything about the business, stop being biased and look around MMORPGs, especially F2P cash shop MMOs and tell me how good they are doing compared to when they first released? They have become, for the most part, ghost towns MMOs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Indie Devs is the right way to go, games created by gamers which includes GrimDawn, Novus Aeterno and Star Citizen. High end Devs with Pubs will start dying off in a few years, besides Blizzard, Sony, EA and maybe CCP. Aeria games, GPotato, IGG and other such trash shouldn't even exist, just those 3 alone got over 30 MMO titles that all look a like. Funny thing is that Maple Story has more active players then the trash I mentioned above, combined. I'm not a huge Nexon fan, but at least they got games in pretty much every genre.
Imagine for a moment that a new umbrella model costs 100 mio $/€ to develop (the nano-gold-hyper version). Unluckily due to restrictrictions originating from the alpha models the umbrellas have huge holes in them and let 75% of the rain through.
So you are telling me to praise them for that rather than telling them what I really want (no holes)? Sorry. but no. If no one complains nothing will change.
The sorry state of MMOs is not due to the developers but due to constraints provided by middle / high business management. Kick them out and let the developers do their own thing and we will get wonderful games again.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game. I think as a community we need to step back and give devs a break.
I wholeheartedly believe our unreasonable expectation over that last few years have had a massive impact on the current state of mmo gaming. Devs forced to cut corners or compromise to deal with those expectations. We need to take games for what they are and praise the devs for the things they do right more than bash and crap all over them for the things we dislike (even though most wont/don't understand why such creative or design based decisions are made. Maybe then devs will actually be inspired to create the games we all have wishfully swirling around our overindulged egos, instead of trying to make everyone happy and therefore coming out with a game that is bland with no heart or soul.
Just my two cents (throw lit match on dry bush that is mmorpg.com)
Yes to this and I /salute you sir!
May reasoning prevail with us all!
Alyn
enjoy!
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I don't think its unreasonable to not make themepark after themepark. My only solution is to not spend any money in the genre until it changes.
Just remember that the biggest part of boycotting, is letting the right people know that you are boycotting and why (they tend not to notice if you don't tell them).
Obviously part of the problem is the cost. I also believe part of the problem is trying to cater to people (large audience) due to cost. There are likely many reasons games cost more to make now. They have more advanced graphics, they have voice chat built in, they have GPS tracking system, voice dialogue (NPCs), lots of quests, more advanced animations, etc. People seem to be getting paid more as well.
When games like Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, etc. were being made I don't believe the cost were vary high. The companies didn't know if they were going to make any money off these games or not. The devs made games they themselves loved and I think that transferred over in the games. Now you see games being designed to cater to large audiences. I don't believe the devs love the games that much. I think they just look at it as a job to make money. Everything is designed with that in mind. You could say these games end up without much soul because of this. I'd rather see the devs make something they love and see if everyone else enjoys it as well.
I know what I like from playing past games, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like something different if it felt like an experience that came more from the heart and less from the wallet.
Originally posted by Coman Cutting corner to meet expectation? Cutting corners to cut cost you mean. No problem with that in itself, but in general it only brings them futher away from expections, not closer to meet it. However if you can not deal with consumer expectation then they should find a job without consumers.
aye. the developers should know what the expectations are by now. them not living up to those expectations has more to due with cost than anything.
I speaking to cutting corners more as trying to implement so many features to appease everyone that each individual feature is lacking (instead of starting small and perfecting fewer features to start). The cost stays the same when you spread it out to too many things to start the whole game will lack on a fundamental level. which comes back around to people expecting far to much.
The underlined is the root of the problem. If Devs would dial back their expectations of us and FOCUS on what they really want to do, a lot of troubles would be solved.
Instead, they listen too much, implement too much, and spread their focus way too wide. I understand that EVERY MMO wants WoW numbers. It is their wet dream. The sooner developers/publishers realize this is not going to happen, the sooner we start to get better MMOs with a much wider variety.
On the other hand, MMOs are making more money across the board now then they ever have before. Players love it. They show their adoration by spending money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by KamofilaI see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game.
Without any examples of what you consider unreasonable, it's hard to judge if your expectations for expectations are reasonable.
How about people demanding super smart enemy AI and have no idea at all what it would take to implement high level AI into an MMO.
High level AI is very computational demanding and unpredictable and with MMOs the AI has to be calculated server side.
Or how about people demanding huge seamless non-instanced non-zoned worlds with super high end graphics.
Do people really think that the graphics for video games are done fairies with magic coding wands? People play Skyrim and expect that level of graphics for MMOs but dont realize that Skyrim's world is a meager 16 square miles.
Or maybe the increasing demand from people that MMOs have all these features and be completely free of charge, lest they be deemed "greedy".
Because MMOs are a charity and only exist for our pleasure right?
Without the actual requests, it's still hard to tell if people are being unreasonable.
Games *can* improve the AI without trying to be deep blue. Between aggro and deep blue there is an enormous range of possibilities for tiny improvements that can make a qualitative difference.
"Super high end graphics" is rather subjective. Even between existing games there is a wide range of possibilities.
If graphics are becoming too expensive to produce, why not make a game of the graphics?
If you advertise your game as "free to play", people are going to expect to play it for free. That's a completely self-inflicted wound and I have zero sympathy for "oh, but we don't actually mean what we say, that's just a marketting term".
Some people are going to be satisfied with an old engine and a new coat of IP. Some people need something new undernearth the pixels to attract them. A developer is competiting against every other game that exists, every other game that ever has existed. t's *is* a very high standard to meet but that's just the reality of it.
Originally posted by KamofilaI see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game.
Without any examples of what you consider unreasonable, it's hard to judge if your expectations for expectations are reasonable.
How about people demanding super smart enemy AI and have no idea at all what it would take to implement high level AI into an MMO.
High level AI is very computational demanding and unpredictable and with MMOs the AI has to be calculated server side.
Or how about people demanding huge seamless non-instanced non-zoned worlds with super high end graphics.
Do people really think that the graphics for video games are done fairies with magic coding wands? People play Skyrim and expect that level of graphics for MMOs but dont realize that Skyrim's world is a meager 16 square miles.
Or maybe the increasing demand from people that MMOs have all these features and be completely free of charge, lest they be deemed "greedy".
Because MMOs are a charity and only exist for our pleasure right?
Without the actual requests, it's still hard to tell if people are being unreasonable.
Games *can* improve the AI without trying to be deep blue. Between aggro and deep blue there is an enormous range of possibilities for tiny improvements that can make a qualitative difference.
"Super high end graphics" is rather subjective. Even between existing games there is a wide range of possibilities.
If graphics are becoming too expensive to produce, why not make a game of the graphics?
If you advertise your game as "free to play", people are going to expect to play it for free. That's a completely self-inflicted wound and I have zero sympathy for "oh, but we don't actually mean what we say, that's just a marketting term".
Some people are going to be satisfied with an old engine and a new coat of IP. Some people need something new undernearth the pixels to attract them. A developer is competiting against every other game that exists, every other game that ever has existed. t's *is* a very high standard to meet but that's just the reality of it.
A few things to add to this.
Stellar AI is completely doable client side. Go talk to bot programmer on Active Worlds for 10 minutes and they will blow your mind (if their not napping...because they are like really old...srsly these people have died while on active worlds and users didn't know for days on end, because there is no auto-logout).
There needs to be some distinctions made between graphical fidelity and visual aesthetics, as well a graphical options, and supports...the word graphics is just getting spammed these days. And everyone is talking about one of those things when they are talking about graphics but rarely all of them. So we completely loose the sense of it. It would be helpful if people more clearly stated what exactly they are talking about.
And "graphics" *rubs temples* simply are not getting more expensive. If anything we are seeing the ability to produce getting cheaper all the time. Daz 3d released over 2700 .bvh mo-cap animations as free ware. Spiral Graphics has a 40% off sale on Genetica going on right now. I believe Maya's rental plans are at a low atm as well (all tings dat dem persons who make da 'graphics', like to use).
I don't think any one is truly naive enough to believe that free to play means anything more than if you try really hard you can play it with out spending much or any money up to a low breaking point.
I see far to many people complain or give input on the way governments choose to run the country but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into managing the economy. I think as a community we need to step back and give politicians a break.
I wholeheartedly believe our unreasonable expectation over that last few years have had a massive impact on the current state of the economy. Politicians forced to cut corners or compromise to deal with those expectations. We need to take politicians for what they are and praise the government for the things they do right more than bash and crap all over them for the things we dislike (even though most wont/don't understand why such economic or legislatively based decisions are made. Maybe then politicians will actually be inspired to create the government we all have wishfully swirling around our overindulged egos, instead of trying to make everyone happy and therefore coming out with a government that is bland with no heart or soul.
I don't think any one is truly naive enough to believe that free to play means anything more than if you try really hard you can play it with out spending much or any money up to a low breaking point.
I expect the word free to mean free. If I search a list of downloads for free software, I don't want to find commercial software marked free mixed in with it.
I don't think any one is truly naive enough to believe that free to play means anything more than if you try really hard you can play it with out spending much or any money up to a low breaking point.
I expect the word free to mean free. If I search a list of downloads for free software, I don't want to find commercial software marked free mixed in with it.
I don't think any one is truly naive enough to believe that free to play means anything more than if you try really hard you can play it with out spending much or any money up to a low breaking point.
I expect the word free to mean free. If I search a list of downloads for free software, I don't want to find commercial software marked free mixed in with it.
But, take a look at where those free programs come from.
For instance (relating it to something I already talked about as an example) look at spiral graphics yeah they sell Genetica, but they also offer wood workshop completely free. Take some thing perhaps a fair bit more popular. CPU-Z . CPUID offers this program completely free. And, on their site they have about 5 other things that they would like to sell you.
Free software is almost always just a little bit of grace. Some companies fully rely on you simply enjoying their free-ware in order to get you to buy their paid for software. Every one needs to make a buck to get by. So, when it comes to free the best you can hope for (and be realistic at the same time) is a no pressure sales tactic (like a piece free software by a company who makes great paid-for-software, but won't ever likely pressure you to buy it because they know their products speak for themselves).
And, it would be nice to see this kind of attitude with MMORPG's. But, for the most part. Scale that up to MMO's and the common understanding is that free-to-play means it basically has a trail that doesn't expire.
Look at EVE and Runescape...
Both have a free version. Both allow you to subscribe, buy cash shop money, and earn your subscription through in game efforts. But, what makes EVE and Runescape different in their money-making-models. EVE's free time is trial only. 14 days and extensions to 21 days. EVE is a subscription game. You are not expected to keep playing indefinitely without paying at some point (though if you quit your day job, you probably could for as long as you managed to keep from being homeless).
Whereas Runescape doesn't care if you play for years and never pay them a dime... well let's be realistic they care, but it is not practically forced on you at any point they use small enticements. Mod mark will practically stand in the door way of your room in a bath robe, rubbing his hairy leg on the jam to entice you -actually that's a really scary thought -. and if your membership lapses you can keep playing on f2p worlds).
What makes EVE a subscription model is you (or someone) has to pay for your account at some point. And, what makes Runescape a free to play model is that you CAN go indefinitely without paying (or someone else paying for you). It doesn't mean that it will be easy all of the time. Or that you won't benefit more from subscribing. Just that you can live on grace within the world presented you. With MMO's, advetising themselves as free-to-play is not guaranteeing that you will never be asked for money. Just that it won't ever be mandatory in order to continue.
This morning in a news story, I watched people beating the shit out of each other, over some new "Air Jordan" running shoes. At times I believe Dev's are designing their games with these people in mind.
Originally posted by laserit This morning in a news story, I watched people beating the shit out of each other, over some new "Air Jordan" running shoes. At times I believe Dev's are designing their games with these people in mind.
They still make Air Jordan's (Yes, this is the surprising part to me)?
Comments
I could personally care less what most of these MMO crybabies want!
I agree 100% with OP
You don't like it, that's fine. Maybe they will make something for you next time. But every time they do you bitch and whine about it and fail to support it.
You reap what you sow peeps!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
As in absolutely this! +++
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Except that's what companies do, they spend time looking into their product and figuring out how to monetize it, how to "sell it" and who will buy it AND how that product is going to fit into their product pipeline as well as how to support it and how to end it when a new product comes along to take its place.
It takes time and money to figure these things out regardless of whether you are selling video games, gps systems or software that provides analytics to various companies that might be interested, it's all part of the process.
So once again, we have gamers who think that selling video games is all about making a game and then putting out a sign saying "for sale".
Or are you saying that you would make a product and release it and just post some "we've released" on some website and sit back to watch the money roll in?
If a business is going to "be a business" they are going to have to spend time monetizing their product. And in the case of a cash shop game, all of that is factored into the development of the game.
edti: I've sat in on many meetings just talking about releasing new products and it's not a quick thing, a lot of work, time and money goes into it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, that is another thing entirely.
So on one hand we have companies figuring out how to monetize their game, who to market it to, etc. As my post above.
But if you are simply talking about "twisting" the game to fit into a cash shop, well then that does happen and I think it's horrible.
Or better said, adding items and services that would not be in the game if they had a sub but are added because they know people will buy them.
I sometimes joke about the adding of a "new hat" in order to get people to buy:
It's one of the reasons I don't like the f2p "cash shop" system. This is not to say that I don't mind cosmetics but the more I play, say, lotro the more cheap the whole thing has started to feel.
So I think, if I'm understanding you, your qualm is that these games are not being developed into full fledged games with ever evolving systems/game play, areas, etc but instead are simply a method to sell shit in the shop. To be true, this is what many asian f2p games do.
There is an interview with a developer, a controversial character, where he explains how the asian developers (or perhaps publsihers?) create their games and that they have certain expectations for servers, they always open new servers and in the end once their game has run its course for making money they shut it down and peddle a new one.
On that point i can agree.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What they said.
You need to know why a game is failing so that problems can be addressed and fixed. You need to know what the players want so that you can give it to them.
Sometimes . . . just sometimes, the rage quiters can give you a clue about issues that you need to be aware of.
Take it as you will.
Yes, I've read a poem. Try not to faint.
How about people demanding super smart enemy AI and have no idea at all what it would take to implement high level AI into an MMO.
High level AI is very computational demanding and unpredictable and with MMOs the AI has to be calculated server side.
Or how about people demanding huge seamless non-instanced non-zoned worlds with super high end graphics.
Do people really think that the graphics for video games are done fairies with magic coding wands? People play Skyrim and expect that level of graphics for MMOs but dont realize that Skyrim's world is a meager 16 square miles.
Or maybe the increasing demand from people that MMOs have all these features and be completely free of charge, lest they be deemed "greedy".
Because MMOs are a charity and only exist for our pleasure right?
And you don't think that there is a group of people who are always complaining about something, demanding something, just because that's "who they are"?
I remember an interview with a developer who was talking about making his game "free to play". A group of people complained and threatened to quit and they were making demands.
So the developer made the game free to play and who did they find were the people who spent the most money? Those who were demanding, complaining, etc.
However, the point is well taken in that "who should they be listening to?"
I'm not convinced that the "rage quitters" are a good barometer. As a matter of fact, no one who rants and raves and demands on a constant basis should be listened to.
It must be very difficult to find the "reasonable core" of your player base and figure out what is really wrong with your game. Or maybe it isn't? maybe all it takes is a thorough poll at login to really get a feel for what is going on.
If the majority are complaiing then sure, point taken. But if it's only that small vocal group then they can just be considered so much white noise.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We complain because all new releases since 2008 all look a like. MMORPG after MMORPG all look the same but with different titles and different class but in the end are the same. The market is saturated and over hyped games like TESO won't last with this market. Having been Bethesda I would of patched Skyrim for multi player functions instead of creating a whole new MMO that won't live up to the hype. Final Fantasy 14 : ARR is another example, sure the game is great and all having played almost 3 months myself but the grinding in this game is by far one of the most awful I've played. Quest / Story wise FF14 : ARR is the best I've played on a MMO.
Another problem people don't want to admit and I'm pretty sure you're one of them by the way you posted this thread, people think that F2P is the future for MMO's. On a stand alone basis, yea F2P can work, but on a MMO scale F2P will never work not with a game / economy breaking cash shop. It's funny how F2P releases are always flooded with people and after a month more then half leaves the game to play something else. The decisions Devs take on a F2P cash shop MMO is to force players to buy power potions or whatever down the road, because we're in a era where CO-OP in a MMORPG isn't allowed any more. It's all about being able to solo everything with no problem. That's where the MMO"RPG" genre is falling apart and rather quickly.
End of Nations was suppose to be one kick ass MMORTS, until Petroglyph got kicked out and now have a crappy unplayable game with lame game breaking heroes. At least we still got EndWar Online that won't be making the same mistake.
So before saying we don't know anything about the business, stop being biased and look around MMORPGs, especially F2P cash shop MMOs and tell me how good they are doing compared to when they first released? They have become, for the most part, ghost towns MMOs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Indie Devs is the right way to go, games created by gamers which includes GrimDawn, Novus Aeterno and Star Citizen. High end Devs with Pubs will start dying off in a few years, besides Blizzard, Sony, EA and maybe CCP. Aeria games, GPotato, IGG and other such trash shouldn't even exist, just those 3 alone got over 30 MMO titles that all look a like. Funny thing is that Maple Story has more active players then the trash I mentioned above, combined. I'm not a huge Nexon fan, but at least they got games in pretty much every genre.
Imagine for a moment that a new umbrella model costs 100 mio $/€ to develop (the nano-gold-hyper version). Unluckily due to restrictrictions originating from the alpha models the umbrellas have huge holes in them and let 75% of the rain through.
So you are telling me to praise them for that rather than telling them what I really want (no holes)? Sorry. but no. If no one complains nothing will change.
The sorry state of MMOs is not due to the developers but due to constraints provided by middle / high business management. Kick them out and let the developers do their own thing and we will get wonderful games again.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Yes to this and I /salute you sir!
May reasoning prevail with us all!
Alyn
enjoy!
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Just remember that the biggest part of boycotting, is letting the right people know that you are boycotting and why (they tend not to notice if you don't tell them).
Obviously part of the problem is the cost. I also believe part of the problem is trying to cater to people (large audience) due to cost. There are likely many reasons games cost more to make now. They have more advanced graphics, they have voice chat built in, they have GPS tracking system, voice dialogue (NPCs), lots of quests, more advanced animations, etc. People seem to be getting paid more as well.
When games like Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, etc. were being made I don't believe the cost were vary high. The companies didn't know if they were going to make any money off these games or not. The devs made games they themselves loved and I think that transferred over in the games. Now you see games being designed to cater to large audiences. I don't believe the devs love the games that much. I think they just look at it as a job to make money. Everything is designed with that in mind. You could say these games end up without much soul because of this. I'd rather see the devs make something they love and see if everyone else enjoys it as well.
I know what I like from playing past games, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like something different if it felt like an experience that came more from the heart and less from the wallet.
Instead, they listen too much, implement too much, and spread their focus way too wide. I understand that EVERY MMO wants WoW numbers. It is their wet dream. The sooner developers/publishers realize this is not going to happen, the sooner we start to get better MMOs with a much wider variety.
On the other hand, MMOs are making more money across the board now then they ever have before. Players love it. They show their adoration by spending money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Without the actual requests, it's still hard to tell if people are being unreasonable.
Games *can* improve the AI without trying to be deep blue. Between aggro and deep blue there is an enormous range of possibilities for tiny improvements that can make a qualitative difference.
"Super high end graphics" is rather subjective. Even between existing games there is a wide range of possibilities.
If graphics are becoming too expensive to produce, why not make a game of the graphics?
If you advertise your game as "free to play", people are going to expect to play it for free. That's a completely self-inflicted wound and I have zero sympathy for "oh, but we don't actually mean what we say, that's just a marketting term".
Some people are going to be satisfied with an old engine and a new coat of IP. Some people need something new undernearth the pixels to attract them. A developer is competiting against every other game that exists, every other game that ever has existed. t's *is* a very high standard to meet but that's just the reality of it.
A few things to add to this.
Stellar AI is completely doable client side. Go talk to bot programmer on Active Worlds for 10 minutes and they will blow your mind (if their not napping...because they are like really old...srsly these people have died while on active worlds and users didn't know for days on end, because there is no auto-logout).
There needs to be some distinctions made between graphical fidelity and visual aesthetics, as well a graphical options, and supports...the word graphics is just getting spammed these days. And everyone is talking about one of those things when they are talking about graphics but rarely all of them. So we completely loose the sense of it. It would be helpful if people more clearly stated what exactly they are talking about.
And "graphics" *rubs temples* simply are not getting more expensive. If anything we are seeing the ability to produce getting cheaper all the time. Daz 3d released over 2700 .bvh mo-cap animations as free ware. Spiral Graphics has a 40% off sale on Genetica going on right now. I believe Maya's rental plans are at a low atm as well (all tings dat dem persons who make da 'graphics', like to use).
I don't think any one is truly naive enough to believe that free to play means anything more than if you try really hard you can play it with out spending much or any money up to a low breaking point.
I expect the word free to mean free. If I search a list of downloads for free software, I don't want to find commercial software marked free mixed in with it.
Maybe they should change the name to pay to win.
But, take a look at where those free programs come from.
For instance (relating it to something I already talked about as an example) look at spiral graphics yeah they sell Genetica, but they also offer wood workshop completely free. Take some thing perhaps a fair bit more popular. CPU-Z . CPUID offers this program completely free. And, on their site they have about 5 other things that they would like to sell you.
Free software is almost always just a little bit of grace. Some companies fully rely on you simply enjoying their free-ware in order to get you to buy their paid for software. Every one needs to make a buck to get by. So, when it comes to free the best you can hope for (and be realistic at the same time) is a no pressure sales tactic (like a piece free software by a company who makes great paid-for-software, but won't ever likely pressure you to buy it because they know their products speak for themselves).
And, it would be nice to see this kind of attitude with MMORPG's. But, for the most part. Scale that up to MMO's and the common understanding is that free-to-play means it basically has a trail that doesn't expire.
Look at EVE and Runescape...
Both have a free version. Both allow you to subscribe, buy cash shop money, and earn your subscription through in game efforts. But, what makes EVE and Runescape different in their money-making-models. EVE's free time is trial only. 14 days and extensions to 21 days. EVE is a subscription game. You are not expected to keep playing indefinitely without paying at some point (though if you quit your day job, you probably could for as long as you managed to keep from being homeless).
Whereas Runescape doesn't care if you play for years and never pay them a dime... well let's be realistic they care, but it is not practically forced on you at any point they use small enticements. Mod mark will practically stand in the door way of your room in a bath robe, rubbing his hairy leg on the jam to entice you -actually that's a really scary thought -. and if your membership lapses you can keep playing on f2p worlds).
What makes EVE a subscription model is you (or someone) has to pay for your account at some point. And, what makes Runescape a free to play model is that you CAN go indefinitely without paying (or someone else paying for you). It doesn't mean that it will be easy all of the time. Or that you won't benefit more from subscribing. Just that you can live on grace within the world presented you. With MMO's, advetising themselves as free-to-play is not guaranteeing that you will never be asked for money. Just that it won't ever be mandatory in order to continue.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
They still make Air Jordan's (Yes, this is the surprising part to me)?