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EQ Next :: Need for food and light sources

2

Comments

  • Vunak23Vunak23 Member UncommonPosts: 633

    If SOE doesn't want to go super hardcore with their systems (I would rather it be hardcore) to appeal to a larger number of people, they could do food similar to FFXI did. It wasn't exactly necessary to eat, but it gave  substantial increases to your character that it became frowned upon by the community that if you weren't eating food (and proper food based on your role) then you were likely to be removed from groups because you were not performing up to everyone elses standard.

    The cooking skill in turn became a very worthwhile crafting skill to take to cap.

     

    Light sources would be awesome to need. They have already shown some screens of nighttime and it does look like carrying a torch around would be useful. As for cave delving and requiring a light source, that is something else I would love to see in game, but I'm not so sure if SOE will do it or not.  

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    They will probably go the route of EQ2 where food provides buffs / regen.  Making it look like a perk when in fact it is essential for anyone wanting to perform optimally.

    From a PR perspective it just seems more palatable than telling someone they are starving and giving them a penalty.

    Presented as perks instead of penalty = happy casuals.  SoE have always been big on crafting, so I doubt that they would skip on cooking.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 Member UncommonPosts: 633
    Originally posted by evilastro

    They will probably go the route of EQ2 where food provides buffs / regen.  Making it look like a perk when in fact it is essential for anyone wanting to perform optimally.

    From a PR perspective it just seems more palatable than telling someone they are starving and giving them a penalty.

    Presented as perks instead of penalty = happy casuals.  SoE have always been big on crafting, so I doubt that they would skip on cooking.

    Yeah thats pretty much what FFXI did. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by evilastro

    They will probably go the route of EQ2 where food provides buffs / regen.  Making it look like a perk when in fact it is essential for anyone wanting to perform optimally.

    So what, about 5% of the population? Most MMO content doesn't come anywhere close to needing "optimal" performance from players, and most people realize that and don't waste time on frivolous buffs that accomplish little more than shaving a couple seconds off of fights for a disproportionate effort investment.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    CazNeerg

    If SoE wants to garner the most players possible a delicate balance between depth and redundancy must be kept. While it's true that most content in MMOs doesn't require precise min/maxing people may still want to do so. I think that was Evil's point. Having a stat system that is more a "topping off" can give both sides why they want.

    As far as 5% I'm not sure if you were referring to those who want to min/max or those that would use food if it simply gave a convenience. In both cases in sure the number is higher. If you check out EQ2U and do a random three letter search the majority of the characters, say over level 30, are likely to have food currently equipped.

    I'm 99% certain that cooking and food will be in EQN. As it is the devs have spoke about how armor and weapon effects would be a main part in how your class performs. Food/drink would add another facet.
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by Aelious
    CazNeerg

    If SoE wants to garner the most players possible a delicate balance between depth and redundancy must be kept. While it's true that most content in MMOs doesn't require precise min/maxing people may still want to do so. I think that was Evil's point. Having a stat system that is more a "topping off" can give both sides why they want.

    As far as 5% I'm not sure if you were referring to those who want to min/max or those that would use food if it simply gave a convenience. In both cases in sure the number is higher. If you check out EQ2U and do a random three letter search the majority of the characters, say over level 30, are likely to have food currently equipped.

    I'm 99% certain that cooking and food will be in EQN. As it is the devs have spoke about how armor and weapon effects would be a main part in how your class performs. Food/drink would add another facet.

    I agree, if it gives a boost, way more than 5% will use it when it is convenient to do so.  I was referring to that percentage in regard to people who are constantly concerned with "optimal" performance, to the point that they spend as much (or more) time making sure they are min/maxed as they do actually enjoying content.  But I seriously doubt food/drink will ever be actually necessary for anyone, because the number of players who would less inclined to play if it were is much greater than those who would be more inclined.  

    The "hardcore" audience just isn't very big.  It never was.  Many of the people who played EQ and UO back in the day didn't do it because they liked hardcore, they just liked online, and there were no AAA casual options.  That is part of why WoW exploded at launch, the average MMO player didn't realize how much pointless agony their games were subjecting them to until they had an option that didn't.  (And I don't even like WoW, I just try to be realistic about reasons why it succeeded.)

    I feel for the hardcore, I really do, because I share some of their tastes.  But most of them will probably never be happy, because that would require a AAA hardcore title, and at this point the developers have figured out, even if some gamers haven't, that a game can be AAA or hardcore, but it can't be both.  AAA in 2013 costs way more than it did in the 90s, and the hardcore audience just isn't large enough to bring in the amount of revenue necessary to justify the cost.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    CazNeerg

    I'm sure SoE's target audience for EQN is all able bodied gamers lol. I don't think however that an MMO needs to only cater to hardcore or casual if the world is big enough. With enough space and points of depth there can be room for both IMO. It would be wise for SoE to do this as there are still a lot of EQ fans following EQN/LM and while not big in number are very loyal IMO. In an industry with so many options loyalty for an MMO is worth it's weight in gold, or platinum :)

    Regarding food it would be nice to see it mean more but also be everywhere so it's not a matter of great time sink. I mean almost all themepark MMOs have a food/drink system so it's not a hardcore vs casual thing. In most cases now I think it's mostly pointless due to what it gives which is just more stats or regen. GW2 has xp % attached but I'd rather see actual effects such "refresh timer on teleports lowered by x%", the % tied to the grade of food (snack, meal, feast, etc.). Other foods would change other abilities so your food choices would tie to your current class/build, much like the other itemization will be from the sounds of it.
  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Member Posts: 499
    Having trouble see'ing the "biggest sandbox ever made" when they're literally taking every feature from polls to the masses. Appealing to the masses is the definition of themepark. It may end up being the biggest themepark ever made with the way the polls are going.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I think everyone carries their own definition of "themepark". Mine is of the literal Disneyland scenario where each ride, or quest hub/event, is there waiting for every adventurer that passes through. It doesn't change unless patched different and going from ride to ride is the only thing to do. Imagine walking around Disneyland and not riding any of the rides.

    I see sandboxes the same, a literal representation. You can build things and find your own fun. In most cases there is noting out there to begin with and players build what will be the "content".

    EQN was never supposed to be a true sandbox. Smed said "biggest sandbox style". I look at is as those sand areas that also have plastic or stone strictures to play on, a sandpark.

    I've never seen "themepark" as simply being something for the masses, it just doesn't have a comparable basis IMO. I think EQN will be very much a "sandpark" while Landmark will be the true sandbox where players create the content.

    SoE had never stated they will make decisions based on the poll results, they just want I know what people think and look more towards the comment section anyways. It's smart IMO, much like a dev asking a marketing coworker what they think. It's good to get outside opinions especially from potential customers.
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198

    Originally posted by Aelious
    CazNeerg

    I'm sure SoE's target audience for EQN is all able bodied gamers lol. I don't think however that an MMO needs to only cater to hardcore or casual if the world is big enough. With enough space and points of depth there can be room for both IMO. It would be wise for SoE to do this as there are still a lot of EQ fans following EQN/LM and while not big in number are very loyal IMO. In an industry with so many options loyalty for an MMO is worth it's weight in gold, or platinum :)

    Regarding food it would be nice to see it mean more but also be everywhere so it's not a matter of great time sink. I mean almost all themepark MMOs have a food/drink system so it's not a hardcore vs casual thing. In most cases now I think it's mostly pointless due to what it gives which is just more stats or regen. GW2 has xp % attached but I'd rather see actual effects such "refresh timer on teleports lowered by x%", the % tied to the grade of food (snack, meal, feast, etc.). Other foods would change other abilities so your food choices would tie to your current class/build, much like the other itemization will be from the sounds of it.

    When I think of the "hardcore" people, I am mostly thinking of the ones so dedicated to things like absolutely necessary food and water, and pitch black night, that in order to make them happy you would have to code things in a way that leaves no room for the casual player to find enjoyment.

    Originally posted by Aelious
    I think everyone carries their own definition of "themepark". Mine is of the literal Disneyland scenario where each ride, or quest hub/event, is there waiting for every adventurer that passes through. It doesn't change unless patched different and going from ride to ride is the only thing to do. Imagine walking around Disneyland and not riding any of the rides.

    I see sandboxes the same, a literal representation. You can build things and find your own fun. In most cases there is noting out there to begin with and players build what will be the "content".

    EQN was never supposed to be a true sandbox. Smed said "biggest sandbox style". I look at is as those sand areas that also have plastic or stone strictures to play on, a sandpark.

    I've never seen "themepark" as simply being something for the masses, it just doesn't have a comparable basis IMO. I think EQN will be very much a "sandpark" while Landmark will be the true sandbox where players create the content.

    SoE had never stated they will make decisions based on the poll results, they just want I know what people think and look more towards the comment section anyways. It's smart IMO, much like a dev asking a marketing coworker what they think. It's good to get outside opinions especially from potential customers.

    I actually think that if the AI system works as well as they say it's going to, we are going to need a new category, because sandbox and themepark as they are currently defined will both be inaccurate.  In a true sandbox, either the players are the content, or they in some fashion produce most of the content.  In a themepark, all (or most) of the content is produced by the developer, and is exactly the same for everyone, static and immobile.  In EQN, the content is created by the developer, but it isn't static, it is dynamic and reactive, changing based on player activities, which means it doesn't fit into the themepark designation.  Assuming they pull it off, of course.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685

    Immersion & realism need to be balanced.  I would like to have eating and drinking to sustain oneself, as it is in, The Sims & DayZ.  Not everyone would like that though, as it could be an annoyance and a form of micro management, so i can see their point of view.

    On the other extreme spectrum, you have Rift, where they removed falling damage, which is ridiculous regarding physics.  It kills immersion every time, without a purpose.  At least most MMOs have spells that make characters take no damage, which make sense, but not in Rift.  Most MMOs also fall into extreme non-realism side of things though, such as WoW, GW2, Swtor, etc..

    I'm not arguing for 100% realism, but a balance needs to take place.  A good example of balance, are the books, Game of Thrones.  Magic is believeable and actually serves a purpose in them, and everything else is realistic, when compared to other fantasy series.  If only an MMO could translate a good balance, such as these books.  A lot of FPS games try to balance this too, and some get it right, but many do not.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by observer

    Immersion & realism need to be balanced.  I would like to have eating and drinking to sustain oneself, as it is in, The Sims & DayZ.  Not everyone would like that though, as it could be an annoyance and a form of micro management, so i can see their point of view.

    On the other extreme spectrum, you have Rift, where they removed falling damage, which is ridiculous regarding physics.  It kills immersion every time, without a purpose.  At least most MMOs have spells that make characters take no damage, which make sense, but not in Rift.  Most MMOs also fall into extreme non-realism side of things though, such as WoW, GW2, Swtor, etc..

    I'm not arguing for 100% realism, but a balance needs to take place.  A good example of balance, are the books, Game of Thrones.  Magic is believeable and actually serves a purpose in them, and everything else is realistic, when compared to other fantasy series.  If only an MMO could translate a good balance, such as these books.  A lot of FPS games try to balance this too, and some get it right, but many do not.

    The problem though is that most of the features that add "realism" can also add inconvenience, and if you give most players too much inconvenience that isn't balanced by a proportionate reward, they are going to leave.  Needing to sleep for a third of every day is realistic, but if you force players to have forty minutes of downtime out of every two hours played, or their performance is severely degraded, they won't be happy.  Extremely small inventories with very low weight limits are realistic, as is the need to drink frequently and eat two to three times a day, but combine realistic inventory sizes with the need to carry food and water while adventuring, and you have almost no room left to carry any loot.  Needing to relieve yourself is realistic, etc. etc.  Games are supposed to be fun.  They are supposed to be escapes.  If people in general wanted all the inconveniences of reality, they would stay there.

    I think it is perfectly fine to leave things out that would add to realism when including them would only add punishment to the game, not reward.  The place where "realism" should play a role is by choosing not to include too many unrealistic elements, rather than choosing to include every realistic one you can think of.  We don't claim that tv shows aren't realistic when they don't spend a bunch of time on meals and bathroom breaks, and we shouldn't do it with games either.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • RavenwolfieRavenwolfie Member Posts: 46
    Originally posted by Karble

    Do you think that Everquest Next will have any requirements of eating food or drinking water?

    Also do you think we will be creating special food and drink with bonus properties?

    One more though here...if you pick a certain race, will they have night vision or infravision.....do you even think we will need it?

     

    I found a great deal of immersion and role play in the original EQ with just these small details. Is this a relic of the past or do you think these things should make a comeback with this next EQ?

    *sighs* I miss Paladin Pickles.

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,738

    I think most people will agree EQN isn't going to be hardcore or like EQ, but most likely casual.  I just hope that it isn't so casual that it has very little sense in playing and achieving things, if that makes sense.  If things are too easy, it isn't very satisfying to complete them.  I know casual and that are on opposite ends, but I hope they make a good enough balance.  If not, I am sure people will probably love it, but I probably will pass if it is way too casual.  So I am holding out hope that they make a good mix.  Theirs nothing like maxing out a crafting profession in one sitting and such, or realizing that work you put into other areas of a mmo are basically worthless.  I personally need a variety of things to do, for my play style, I may harvest/craft one day, then do dungeons, then open world, maybe pvp, and in the case of VG, every once in a while did their diplomacy as a break.  It keeps a game fresh to have quality/deep options.

     

     

    SoE seems to like food buffs, but they will most likely keep them to around a 5% boost, if it is too much, people will feel they have to have them, even if they don't care to min/max, like someone said and it will not be a positive feature for the casual crowd.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I'm sure hope SoE sees by now that what the casual crowd says they want and what they will play are two different things. I can't think of one MMO within the last few years that lost players due to depth of features outside typical casual limits.

    I have however seen games so casual that after two months activity plummets. In fact, most titles released in the last few years seems to have done this.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    *I sure hope.. hehe
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,410
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I hope not. It's time wasted in systems that eventually rot. Weight systems, food systems, and other arbitrary inconveniences become vestigial over time because players figure out how to game the system.

    Everquest 2 had a weight system, until everyone figured out how to maximize strength enough to trivialize it. It also has a food and drink system that had much more impact at one point, again until clever players figured out how to work around it.

    I don't think they add much to immersion. They just add another micro-managing task to remember.

    EQ2 weight and food system never mattered since launch. At least keep your examples relevant. You were pretty much never overweight and food was just used to heal yourself to full in 5seconds like every other lifeless MMO.

    However, EQ1 weight and food systems mattered quite a bit for a good many expansions till SoE ruined the game in general.

    Food and weight did matter in EQ2. The reason they were nerfed in both EQ and EQ2 is because players figured out ways to trivialize the system. Players always do that for meaningless impediments.

    So what good reason and how would a decay timer (that's what food is in a starvation system) and a weight limit do to add depth of game play? 

     

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936

    If there is a food and drink requirement, should there be special backpacks or carry-all's used for these supplies as I am sure bag space will become a premium early in game.

    Additionally, should there be a separate space reserved for quest items?

     

    Alyn

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by FUmmorpgCOM
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I hope not. It's time wasted in systems that eventually rot. Weight systems, food systems, and other arbitrary inconveniences become vestigial over time because players figure out how to game the system.

    Everquest 2 had a weight system, until everyone figured out how to maximize strength enough to trivialize it. It also has a food and drink system that had much more impact at one point, again until clever players figured out how to work around it.

    I don't think they add much to immersion. They just add another micro-managing task to remember.

    EQ2 weight and food system never mattered since launch. At least keep your examples relevant. You were pretty much never overweight and food was just used to heal yourself to full in 5seconds like every other lifeless MMO.

    However, EQ1 weight and food systems mattered quite a bit for a good many expansions till SoE ruined the game in general.

    Food and weight did matter in EQ2. The reason they were nerfed in both EQ and EQ2 is because players figured out ways to trivialize the system. Players always do that for meaningless impediments.

    So what good reason and how would a decay timer (that's what food is in a starvation system) and a weight limit do to add depth of game play? 

     

    Nothing...period....it adds tedium and lets those that really NEED that ridiculous "immersion" thing tout their victory.  Beyond that there is ZERO use to this besides limiting your exploration.

    Or having food/drink could be tied to crafting. Add food/drink with slight, short term boosts/bonuses/buffs for high level crafting. Adds to economy as they will need hard to find ingredients which will make exploring/gathering more important. Use your imagination. I know having immersion in a fantasy world is the most terrible thing ever and you hate the idea of it, but there are many who immersion keeps them playing longer and feeling something for the setting/world more than just as a place to wait until a dungeon group opens up.

    And how would immersion limit exploring? If devs put some time and thought into immersion, it can enhance everyones play. In EQ, rangers and druids could track for rare creatures or to get something needed as drop of certain animals, forage for food and water as a skill. Anyone running out of food/h2o would just ask and myself and others would share to help them out- more community building. Game could have wilderness skills to learn to help explorers. Problem isn't with having immersion in games, it's how it is implemented.

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by alyndale

    If there is a food and drink requirement, should there be special backpacks or carry-all's used for these supplies as I am sure bag space will become a premium early in game.

    Additionally, should there be a separate space reserved for quest items?

     

    Alyn

    Being f2p, I'm sure all the pack space you need will be in CS. But they could just make food/water stackable like in EQ. And if packs and bags are made by crafters would be even better, but...

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by alyndale

    If there is a food and drink requirement, should there be special backpacks or carry-all's used for these supplies as I am sure bag space will become a premium early in game.

    Additionally, should there be a separate space reserved for quest items?

    Alyn

    That depends on what rationale is being used for the food and drink requirement.  If it's in the name of realism, there should be no special backpacks.  There should be one backpack for everything, and it should be very small, because that is what is realistic.

    If it's not in the name of "realism" then sure, it could get it's own special bag.  But other than realism, what justification is there?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by evilastro

    They will probably go the route of EQ2 where food provides buffs / regen.  Making it look like a perk when in fact it is essential for anyone wanting to perform optimally.

    So what, about 5% of the population? Most MMO content doesn't come anywhere close to needing "optimal" performance from players, and most people realize that and don't waste time on frivolous buffs that accomplish little more than shaving a couple seconds off of fights for a disproportionate effort investment.

     

    No, in EQ2 your out of combat regen without food and water is so pathetic you would take forever to get to max level without food and water.

    At max level you can go without since you will probably have a bard, enchanter and healer to top up your mana / health, but food offers such significant stat boosts that you would have to be mentally challenged to not use them for any content, let alone raiding.

    Raiders and that 5% you were talking about will buy the more expensive foods and drink that are made from fabled drops for that extra boost, but food and drink of any tier is pretty much considered essential, even though it is presented as a perk instead of a penalty.

    I mean currently food / drink offers a flat 4% more damage for DPS classes, 4% more healing for healers and 4% more uncontested avoidance for tanks. The cheaper non fabled versions give 3%. Are you saying that casual players are so dumb that they would not use food that makes them 3% better and have decent out of combat regen? That's better than most item upgrades.

    I am guessing you never played Everquest 2....

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    How dare they market for mass appeal. Much more profitable to appeal to the hardcore minority who will probably just find something to complain about and quit anyways.

    image
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by evilastro
     

    No, in EQ2 your out of combat regen without food and water is so pathetic you would take forever to get to max level without food and water.

    At max level you can go without since you will probably have a bard, enchanter and healer to top up your mana / health, but food offers such significant stat boosts that you would have to be mentally challenged to not use them for any content, let alone raiding.

    Raiders and that 5% you were talking about will buy the more expensive foods and drink that are made from fabled drops for that extra boost, but food and drink of any tier is pretty much considered essential, even though it is presented as a perk instead of a penalty.

    I mean currently food / drink offers a flat 4% more damage for DPS classes, 4% more healing for healers and 4% more uncontested avoidance for tanks. The cheaper non fabled versions give 3%. Are you saying that casual players are so dumb that they would not use food that makes them 3% better and have decent out of combat regen? That's better than most item upgrades.

    I am guessing you never played Everquest 2....

    Actually I have, but that game has such an excessive amount of content that I am never doing same level quests, I am always doing green quests that are just about to turn gray.  As a result, I don't exactly have any need to pay attention to how "optimal" my performance is.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • RavenwolfieRavenwolfie Member Posts: 46

    Personally while I remember the EQ days of even gold having weight. (It's amazing how at the time not being able to move once you had saved up enough gold to buy an item from someone thus having to wait for them to meet you in the bank which was then annoying is now remembered fondly...however thankful I am that that is no longer the case.) since it is no longer generally a weight issue in games these days for me it is now about storage space. 

    Food is all fine and wonderful, and it is one of the things I often enjoy crafting, but if it came down to it in the end I find it all comes down to storage space. For example on Guild Wars 2 my necro is a chef. She has the interesting problem of having full bags and a full bank to the point that I often end up moving stuff from the bank to other characters. If there are enough bag and bank slots and bags are not terribly expensive I am all for all the food in the planet but given the choice I believe I would take the storage space at this point, or at the very least much larger stack sizes that can be separated to however much you want later to sell or for other characters.

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