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EQNext VS Cryengine MMO

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  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247


    Originally posted by Margulis
    EQNext graphics are definitely a step backwards in my opinion - and anyone trying to say they are just as good as the high quality releases over the last few years either are neck deep in fanboism or denial.

    Nobody is saying this. They are saying they are as high quality as other MMORPG that weren't just awful in the past few years. Name a MMORPG with good graphics that wasn't just terrible in the past 3 years and I will give you a prize.

    The entire point right now is that realistic graphics come with a price and that price is over the top awful game play. There has not been a single heavy graphics MMORPG that hasn't been terrible from a gameplay standpoint at this point.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,448
    Originally posted by Coman

    Cryengine + destructible environment would really make cryegine live up to it name. It will make everyone cry, beside those who have access to super computers. The grapics in itself however look better I agree. I am personally looking for a good experience. I do not care if it looks like real-life or pong. 

    Get your tissue out 




  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,851
    Why does every single screen shot of EQN look like a photo of some high school diarama made from clay?
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,443
    Originally posted by Nitth
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Elikal As to the OP: I am on the fence. I don't need photorealism, but some more details would do EQ:N good. Take the graphics of GW2 as example, it looks very lush and detailled without being photorealistic. I hope SOE does tune up their graphics a bit, yet.
    If it means that with the added detail comes the horrible culling that GW2 has, I'll rather take the simpler models any day.
    Culling? Sorry, I tried to translate it, I don't know the word. Did you mean something like lag??

     

    If so, I never had any considerable lag, even in large WvW zergs. *shrug*

    Culling is computer programming technique that only renders what needs to be on the screen.

    Ie: a bush hidden behind a house is not drawn.

    In Gw2: Players too far in the distance, or too many on screen are not drawn.

    It's not just GW2. It's in pretty much any game. There is a problem with rendering a lot of high detail non-static images on a screen. How well does the Cry, Unreal, and that proprietary engine do with that sort of rendering scenario? How does each handle it? Rift handles it by putting greenish cylinders all over the screen for players and npcs. Some engines handle it by not displaying anything. Different engines have different capabilities and limitations.

    The entire comparison by the OP is fairly ludicrous. They aren't comparing like situations, like screenshots, or anything similar and drawing weird conclusions from those disparate comparisons. Wait, who am I kidding. That happens every day on the hour around here. image

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Elikal

    As to the OP: I am on the fence. I don't need photorealism, but some more details would do EQ:N good. Take the graphics of GW2 as example, it looks very lush and detailled without being photorealistic. I hope SOE does tune up their graphics a bit, yet.

    If it means that with the added detail comes the horrible culling that GW2 has, I'll rather take the simpler models any day.

    Culling? Sorry, I tried to translate it, I don't know the word. Did you mean something like lag??

    If so, I never had any considerable lag, even in large WvW zergs. *shrug*

    Nitth explained it already. Basically you would run into a WvW zerg, but would initially only see a few enemies. After a while the computer would eventually render the remaining models and suddenly the fight you thought will be 5v5 turned out to be 5v50 instead.

    They "solved" the problem later on by adding sliders, where you can select the level of detail of the enemy models in WvW. I dare you to crank those settings to maximum and have a playable framerate.

    Obviously we don't know if EQNext will handle large masses of player characters any better, but at least with less detail per character it should be doable.

    On the subject of detail, by the way. Why does everyone say detail = texture resolution + polygon amount? Again I dare you to play Brothers. It has quite low polygon count and not very high res textures, but for me it's one of the most beautiful games ever made. Strong art style & qualified artists win over technical detail every time. Of course there is nothing preventing to have both, but I have yet to see one example where it's done right (GW2 comes closest at the moment).

  • 0Neo00Neo0 Member UncommonPosts: 47

    Was hoping for way better graphics, will be giving this one a miss, would find it very hard to get immersed in this game( Cartoon Art style) no matter how good the mechanics.

    So yes +1 to the poster .

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Someone needs to plaster Apoc's house with the Uncanny Valley graph before he looks more like an ass picking fights for no reason.

     

    As is : OP you need to step back and decide which matters more: Aesthetics or graphics, I kinda like EQN's aesthetics and I would never call something like Archeage realistic or any of the other realistic MMOs because they are so far up the ass end of the Uncanny Valley that you cannot really enjoy them if you have any analytical capabilities.

     

     

    You have a very smart way of calling other people stupid. 

     

    Do you think i give a damn about some hypothesized emotional response study that was from the 70s? AA,Bless,Repop,SS and any other well made realistic game, would like to have a word with Masahiro Mori. Your study sites robotics and most recently, CGI form movies like tintin and the the polar express. 

    Show me a study with the above games and well talk. 

    :) it isn't about games but about the human reaction to things which look almost life-like but aren't which applies to robotics and CGI quite well. Game graphics are in themselves also CGI so fall within the area of coverage for this human characteristic, Hell immersion within "realistic" games is based on it and it is the main reason why no, and I do mean no, realistic MMO's have ever hit the profitability of non-realistic ones (EVE-Online is realistic to a degree yes but it has also had, by what I recall, three major revisions to its graphics during its 10 year lifespan so far with many tweaks to graphics post Revelations).

    image
  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    Originally posted by xAPOCx

    Realistic graphics dont look realistic? I dont even know what top say to this. As realistic as a MMO could get i guess. Not photo realism but realism for a mmo? they are starting to get very real.

     

    As for your personal preference for immersion? That cant be deputed. your tastes are yours and thats fine. But as for me its not. Its like saying you cant get immersed in say Star Wars because there is no way there could be a fat slug creature talking to a guy that is the captain of a ship that can travel through space with a first mate who is 9 ft tall. Thats just silly. So you cant immerse yourself in the atmosphere and the story. I feel sorry for you if thats the case. 

     

    Realistic (for me) will always top stylized. And those games are being made right now. 

    You said it yourself. As realistic as an MMO could get. And that's not very real. Go check the Witcher 3 CGI trailer and you'll see we're still ways off of presenting even that level of realism in gameplay, much less actually realistic graphics.

    Your example about Star Wars has nothing to do with my problem with EVE spaceships lacking mass and substance, I don't know where you pulled that one out. Suspense of disbelief doesn't mean I can't "believe" in the fictional creatures in a fictional universe, as long as they seem and act like real creatures/objects. Try to understand the difference.

    Immersion also has nothing to do with realistic graphics. Or are you seriously telling me you find the current "realistic" graphics so real that you mistake them for real life? Seriously? Immersion can happen just aswell in a cartoon world. If you can't immerse yourself in a cartoon world, it's just your lack of imagination. Of course if you just choose not to immerse yourself in a cartoon world, it's a whole different story. Which is it?

     

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,130

    Are any of those that think Bless/Black Desert are years ahead of EQN or current games actually looking at game play?

    Screen shots, flybys, up close renderings, and cinematic cut scenes are not the game (at least not to me). What you see the majority of time while playing are.

    I can't argue that some games coming out look "better" depending on your criteria, but not amazingly better than what is already out.

    No idea why OP used Forged by Chaos or Monster Hunter Online for comparison. Both are nothing special compared to upcoming titles. Guess because those specific ss were pretty, but the games are pretty blah.

    These videos really don't wow me at all. Both games look very similar and while they do look "better" than FFXIV AAR, GW2, Tera, Archeage, it only makes sense as they are newer. Newer is usually better (not always). 

    (Might not be the most current, but feel free to show me some that are "better") 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URrV3I_J-mk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pKJkMWyioo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hxcX70V8RU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzfDt-ZjesA

    They do look more realistic then current games, but again as others have said, this is the style they are going for. I'm fairly certain, SOE could of gone in this direction if they wanted to. Forgelight is a very capable engine. They didn't want to, simple.

    They are going for a stylized, "cartoony", heroic look. It is intentional. It seems that some people can't grasp this idea.

    Not every game has to look the same or have the same things in it (could Bless and BD get any more similar?).

    You either like the style or you don't. To me it is Apples to Oranges. WoW, Wildstar, EQ, EQ2 and EQN are all similar to me. They all do their own thing, but they are are one end of the spectrum with the Asian/Realistic market is on the other.

    Different styles for different markets.

    Bless and Black Desert can't grab my interest what so ever. Much like TESO. They just don't do it for me and I think a lot of that is due to the similarities to other games and the attempt to be realistic but falling short.

    EQN has Forgelight, Voxels, assuming a lot of character detail with Forgelight effects and the use of Soemote, and a colorful world to make things come alive.

    Comparing one game to another, especially graphic is pointless overall. I think it is less to do with EQN taking advantage of newer tech and more about people just disliking the art style in general. Get over it already. Or go get hired by SOE and convince them to scrap the entire game once again, use another companies engine, and make the game just like every other one out and coming out. Then we can all complain how it copied such and such game and how SOE isn't original or doing their own thing.

    Sometimes the simpler path is the better one for more people. Take WoW and Minecraft for example. I don't remember anyone complaining WoW didn't look realistic, even though there were realistic games done at the same time (EQ2 somewhat). Or that Minecraft looks like a 7 year old designed it. Both have had millions of players with no problem feeling immersed in the cartoony worlds.

    If you value poly count, realism, and a pretty game over another games content or style, play what you prefer. Do people go onto a Mario forum and complain that it doesn't look like Metal Gear Solid?

    Some of the same people have been complaining since SOE announced EQN back in Aug, I'm assuming they will continue to do so until release and beyond. Pointless, but that is their right. Sucks they have nothing better to do or that these other "better" games aren't distracting enough for them that they have to come here and moan.

    I should go to the BD/Bless forums and complain that they don't have Voxels, SOEmote, Forgelight specific features, don't look like EQN, and most of all don't have huge shoulderpads!!! I smell fail right there.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    I've looked at Archeage and Black Gold/Desert etc etc.

    To me, subjectively there's something a bit off with the shiny graphics. It looks plastic and static sheet covering everything?

    Whereas that's sort of the point I'm not really being clear about with SOE's engine LightForge (or whatever it's called) it looks like the world fits together even without the voxel stuff. Great terrain in PS2 and EQN.

    So I don't believe tech is the only determinant of "good graphics". I'd say how jarring somethings are. For eg the characters in AA and BG they seem very floaty.

    Anyway I hope that opinion adds moat of dust to the ongoing graphics discussions. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. image

    Actually, tech IS the only determining factor when it comes to graphics.

    Problem is that most people (and nearly everyone in this thread) seem to confuse 'graphics' with 'art style'.

    Graphics are the technology that goes into making the art style look good. It's the resolution of the textures, the lightning / shading, the aliasing, reflections / refractions, shadow resolution, draw limitations, etc. It's highly objective.

    Art style, on the other hand, is whether you think the overall look / feel of the game works. Or whether or not you feel it works better than in another game. And this is where the majority of the disputes really exist. EQN's art style is both current and outdated at the same time.

    It is a throwback to some older games that used less taxing graphics to allow for more robust gameplay and server tech. However, they managed to do it in such a way that mirrors what was done in games like Bioshock, Dishonored, and Team Fortress 2. All of which have great art styles.

    As for graphics, they are current enough that they aren't obscelete. Which is about all you can hope for from an MMO. Complaining about less than current graphics in an MMO is kind of ridiculous, tbh, because MMOs are ALWAYS behind the curve in that regard. They simply have to be. Games like Monster Hunter can get away with better graphics because they are much more segregated games. The world is much more heavily sliced into smaller chunks, whereas most MMOs try to make themselves as large as possible.

    I concede that is true.

    I was just looking at No Man's Sky and Bungie's Destiny. From the small samples, I'd say those worlds look like they fit together and therefore good graphics and good style.

    The CryEngine and Unreal used in those MMOs AA and Black Desert/Gold they've failed to make the world fit together. It's plastic somehow. Same with Tera.

    The objective measures are all high standard but the end result fails. I'd say that might be where the final test is: How people feel/react to the graphics and what reaction you are going for.

    EQN I am not really interested in, but they have got that feeling of the world fitting together right. Maybe there is an art word terminology for that result that would be useful to slap on?!

  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    EQN I am not really interested in, but they have got that feeling of the world fitting together right. Maybe there is an art word terminology for that result that would be useful to slap on?!

    You might be looking for the Gestalt principles.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    Voxels and Procedural Graphics...

     

    When I see these threads, I just cringe.  The graphics in this game look like they do because THEY HAVE TO.  This is the state of the art of voxel/procedural graphics.

    I'm not going to go into an exhaustive explanation here, but the bottom line is that the EQ Next world is largely built and painted by algorithms, not people, like a standard MMO is.  Because of this, the graphics look more cartoony. They clearly made a design choice to match the characters to the world, rather than put more "realistic" looking characters on top of the procedural art.

    Go look at any voxel game out there, and tell me if any of them look like Cryengine games in the least.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    EQN I am not really interested in, but they have got that feeling of the world fitting together right. Maybe there is an art word terminology for that result that would be useful to slap on?!

    You might be looking for the Gestalt principles.

    Dang, that's good. Thank you. Those poor McCain's however...

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo Member UncommonPosts: 3,219
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Voxels and Procedural Graphics...

     

    When I see these threads, I just cringe.  The graphics in this game look like they do because THEY HAVE TO.  This is the state of the art of voxel/procedural graphics.

    I'm not going to go into an exhaustive explanation here, but the bottom line is that the EQ Next world is largely built and painted by algorithms, not people, like a standard MMO is.  Because of this, the graphics look more cartoony. They clearly made a design choice to match the characters to the world, rather than put more "realistic" looking characters on top of the procedural art.

    Go look at any voxel game out there, and tell me if any of them look like Cryengine games in the least.

    Hmm, those algorithms seem to create a fractal irregularity-regularity that you get in nature however which seems to work better in total effect?

  • HeretiqueHeretique Member RarePosts: 1,525
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Voxels and Procedural Graphics...

     

    When I see these threads, I just cringe.  The graphics in this game look like they do because THEY HAVE TO.  This is the state of the art of voxel/procedural graphics.

    I'm not going to go into an exhaustive explanation here, but the bottom line is that the EQ Next world is largely built and painted by algorithms, not people, like a standard MMO is.  Because of this, the graphics look more cartoony. They clearly made a design choice to match the characters to the world, rather than put more "realistic" looking characters on top of the procedural art.

    Go look at any voxel game out there, and tell me if any of them look like Cryengine games in the least.

    Pretty much this (especially the red). I'm a big graphics buff and I love to push my rig into the limit but with the concerns of EQN/EQL I am glad they took the stylized route.

    Tons of "realistic" games coming out and now a couple of voxel games coming out as well. Don't see the problem.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by Heretique
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Voxels and Procedural Graphics...

     

    When I see these threads, I just cringe.  The graphics in this game look like they do because THEY HAVE TO.  This is the state of the art of voxel/procedural graphics.

    I'm not going to go into an exhaustive explanation here, but the bottom line is that the EQ Next world is largely built and painted by algorithms, not people, like a standard MMO is.  Because of this, the graphics look more cartoony. They clearly made a design choice to match the characters to the world, rather than put more "realistic" looking characters on top of the procedural art.

    Go look at any voxel game out there, and tell me if any of them look like Cryengine games in the least.

    Pretty much this (especially the red). I'm a big graphics buff and I love to push my rig into the limit but with the concerns of EQN/EQL I am glad they took the stylized route.

    Tons of "realistic" games coming out and now a couple of voxel games coming out as well. Don't see the problem.

    The thing is, these graphics are a direct result of using technology that allows us to change the world and build things in this game.  While I think they could have made better choices on what I have seen of the color pallet, the rest of the look is what it is.  Given the choice, I would prefer a more "realistic" look myself, but I know that's not going to be possible with the state of voxel technology these days.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    Originally posted by Heretique
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Voxels and Procedural Graphics...

     

    When I see these threads, I just cringe.  The graphics in this game look like they do because THEY HAVE TO.  This is the state of the art of voxel/procedural graphics.

    I'm not going to go into an exhaustive explanation here, but the bottom line is that the EQ Next world is largely built and painted by algorithms, not people, like a standard MMO is.  Because of this, the graphics look more cartoony. They clearly made a design choice to match the characters to the world, rather than put more "realistic" looking characters on top of the procedural art.

    Go look at any voxel game out there, and tell me if any of them look like Cryengine games in the least.

    Pretty much this (especially the red). I'm a big graphics buff and I love to push my rig into the limit but with the concerns of EQN/EQL I am glad they took the stylized route.

    Tons of "realistic" games coming out and now a couple of voxel games coming out as well. Don't see the problem.

    The problem is some people want EQNext's features with Black Desert's graphics and fail to realize it's not possible with current tech. That's when they come to this thread (and the dozen others like it) to cry about cartoony graphics, because their realistic graphics games suck balls when it comes to gameplay depth.

    Thos guys won't be happy for another 5-10 years, at least. If ever.

  • donpopukidonpopuki Member Posts: 591
    Artistic style gives games their flavor. wanting all games to conform to the realistic style  is the same as wanting all games to be anime styled. I wouldn't want a world where every game looks the same.
  • KarbleKarble Member UncommonPosts: 750
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Someone said that EQNext graphics are on par with recent MMO.

    I disagree.

    EQNext is somewhere between the era of WoW and  2013, but it's not even in the ballpark of recent MMO.

     

    VS

     

    At first I was afraid, I was pretrafied. But now you got the graphics snobs all up in my pride. I thought you would treat this with a little respect, but no you're back to bother us, oh no not I....I won't just take this with a little grain of salt!

    So basically you are trying to compare tech demo's, games that have 1/4 the features, or completely different engines? Go back to school. You are done here. There are guards posted at the main entry/exits and you can't commit your dirty deeds. Walk away....just move on. FInd a repository or something instead.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521

    I sense topic deja vu, so here's the Uncanny Valley. 

  • ace80kace80k Member UncommonPosts: 151

    I think the real comparison should be: how does the Cryengine MMO compare performance wise to EQNext? How does the Cryengine MMO compare to EQNext with large scale battles (PvP/raiding) in mind? Realistic graphics usually equals horrible performance, just saying. We won't know the answer to this question for quite a while, but I think it's safe to say that, EQNext will do MUCH better compared. Especially given what SoE will have learned from Planetside 2, which uses the same engine.

  • BeanpuieBeanpuie Member UncommonPosts: 812
    Originally posted by ace80k

    I think the real comparison should be: how does the Cryengine MMO compare performance wise to EQNext? How does the Cryengine MMO compare to EQNext with large scale battles (PvP/raiding) in mind? Realistic graphics usually equals horrible performance, just saying. We won't know the answer to this question for quite a while, but I think it's safe to say that, EQNext will do MUCH better compared. Especially given what SoE will have learned from Planetside 2, which uses the same engine.

    ^

    ForgeLight Engine -  Scale, with ultra graphics and physx on top of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZ7ZgZnIrM

     

    Numbers game:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvmKEgSrgXQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JWAHbiZLLE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OADiLfCwdA0

     

    Air Zerg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaaD4_ENU9I

     

    Yes im beating a dead horse...i need glue.

  • kruluxkrulux Member Posts: 229

    I watched a few videos of Balck Desert Online and Bless Online last night... the game play look about average I say, and while in game - the graphics looked average.  The still screenshots look awesome, but only average while actually playing at a decent framerate... at least from the videos I watched.

     

    In short, I don't mind the stylized graphics/art of EQN, Wildstar etc... I suppose I'm in the game play over graphics group.

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337

     

     

    I'll admit that I am really looking forward to this. So I have a skewed prescpective. And I'll admit that the graphic detail in EQ next is not equal to that of cry3..

     

    BUT having said that... the OP is WAY off base when he/she says that these graphics are 5+ years old.. That is just not the case. what MMO's where coming out 5 years ago? Warhammer online? AoC? these graphics are on par for the last year or so. (IMO)

     

    Yes the poster did a nice job of getting the 2 most graphicly impressive MMO's out there to compare to..  But its hardly fair IMO. Its apples and oranges. Yes they are both MMO's...and thats about where the simularity stops.

     

    Does any of the cry3 games have voxel based terrain? thats fully destructible? where you can build castles and mountains?

    ...didn't think so.

     

     

    As for me, I do get impressed by the newest shiniest graphics.. but at the end of the day, I'm still playing Age of Empires2, Minecraft and League of legends... none of which are known for the graphics.

    Yeah if they had the latest and greatest graphics they might get a large crowd at first, but it would drop off probably 70% after the first month, better that SoE focus on gameplay.

     

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  • NasherUKNasherUK Member UncommonPosts: 480

    The engine is a modified version of the one used in Planetside 2 and it's pretty good tbh. Considering battles in PS2 can contain upto 2000 players, on massive seamless indoor/outdoor terrain with high detail dynamic lighting and a proper physics engine (where debris can actually hurt you) etc.  With a decent spec you can still hit 60-80fps on high detail with bullets and explosions going off all over the place. The EQ:Next usage of the engine is different though, the terrain is different and the maps look a lot more enclosed and scaled down. Where as in PS2 the maps are more lifelike in scale with large expanses, to allow for fast vehicles and massive battles.

    The cry engine has been used in a few MMOs and it's nothing special. The map sizes are not as big as a proper MMO focused engine and it's just not optimized for the kind of chaos you find in open world MMOs.

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