I enjoyed this game immensely. But unfortunately, it was only for a few short months. In a sense I do feel that GW2 is P2W. Actually, it's Pay not to lose. But for that, you have to know who you are winning/losing against. It's not other players. But actually, GW2 itself. I always felt such an adversarial relationship with the game. I felt like there were far too many mechanics and RNG factors that were set very much against me but yet that could easily be overcome buy dropping some cash in the shop. Which I did. In fact, in the time I played, I probably spent twice as much as if I payed a regular Sub. I went back to Sub based games, because I figured if I am going to spend the money anyway, I might as well play a game with a predictable reward structure.
sigh i do not see gw2 a pay to win so if you dont desire to grind you can buy boosts so why is that bad me myself i do not play a lot and most my hardcore pvp is on battlfield these days not on gear driven power pvp id liek there to be mmos that are more skill based than gear based but that might be a while do to mortal onlines horrid community and filld with haters that hate all the new people that join you all cryso much babys
With the astronomical surge blade and soul is seeing now that it has chinese servers up, this may add even more pressure on anet to fix their declining revenue... the game may become even more p2w.
Originally posted by caetftl With the astronomical surge blade and soul is seeing now that it has chinese servers up, this may add even more pressure on anet to fix their declining revenue... the game may become even more p2w.
Actually, Blade & Soul Chinese money doesn't go directly to NCSoft, just like WoW money in china doesn't go directly to NCSoft.
MMORPGs in China are run by Chinese companies. It's the law.
So huge profits in China for an MMORPG <> the same huge profits for the actual company.
It's sort of like how I get annoyed when people try calculating how much money Blizzard is making by multiplying the amount of subscribers x a monthly fee, when MOST of the 'subscribers' are 1. Using time cards, and 2. In china, giving the money to a different company, which Blizzard only sees a fraction of.
Originally posted by caetftl With the astronomical surge blade and soul is seeing now that it has chinese servers up, this may add even more pressure on anet to fix their declining revenue... the game may become even more p2w.
Actually, Blade & Soul Chinese money doesn't go directly to NCSoft, just like WoW money in china doesn't go directly to NCSoft.
MMORPGs in China are run by Chinese companies. It's the law.
So huge profits in China for an MMORPG <> the same huge profits for the actual company.
It's sort of like how I get annoyed when people try calculating how much money Blizzard is making by multiplying the amount of subscribers x a monthly fee, when MOST of the 'subscribers' are 1. Using time cards, and 2. In china, giving the money to a different company, which Blizzard only sees a fraction of.
A lot of misinformation in your post so let me address it. WoW money doesn't go to ncsoft at all, wow is not owned by ncsoft.
MMORPGs in china have chinese publishers/localization, however, if you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that a game being hugely successful in china doesn't bring in money for the company that owns the IP rights, you simply lack an understanding of how these deals are negotiated.
Anyway we both know that if GW2 had released in CHINA you would be singing anet and ncsofts praise...
Also Blizzard makes a ton of money off of wow china, if you studied their financials you would know this. Please stop spreading misinformation and misconstruing it in a way that only benefits the image of gw2, stick to the facts.
The weird part about this thread is that there isn't a single pay to win element in the entire game. You cannot buy power, period. Faster leveling? Hell, they give out scrolls to level you to 20, then additional items to add levels with a click (I got a handful of those in the WvW chest). Better gear? Nothing you can purchase. The top tier, which is marginally better than exotics, is ascended, and that's account bound when made, soulbound when used.
The weird part about this thread is that there isn't a single pay to win element in the entire game. You cannot buy power, period. Faster leveling? Hell, they give out scrolls to level you to 20, then additional items to add levels with a click (I got a handful of those in the WvW chest). Better gear? Nothing you can purchase. The top tier, which is marginally better than exotics, is ascended, and that's account bound when made, soulbound when used.
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
A lot of misinformation in your post so let me address it. WoW money doesn't go to ncsoft at all, wow is not owned by ncsoft.
MMORPGs in china have chinese publishers/localization, however, if you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that a game being hugely successful in china doesn't bring in money for the company that owns the IP rights, you simply lack an understanding of how these deals are negotiated.
Anyway we both know that if GW2 had released in CHINA you would be singing anet and ncsofts praise...
Also Blizzard makes a ton of money off of wow china, if you studied their financials you would know this. Please stop spreading misinformation and misconstruing it in a way that only benefits the image of gw2, stick to the facts.
Haha, I will admit that I messed up by typing 'Arenanet' instead of 'Blizzard, an artifact of trying to rush a post before work.
But other than that, everything I said is perfectly factual.
Yes, being hugely successful in China does bring in money for the company, but =not as much as it sounds like=.
That was just the whole point. Blizzard DOES make a lot of money off of WoW China... but not even close to as much as they'd make if they had that many extra users in the US or Europe. I'm not saying 'Companies don't make money off of their games released China', but just that it's a significantly smaller portion than it would be otherwise.
Also, you're being silly. I love Blade & Soul. I own multiple art books by the artist who did the design for it. I'm happy Blade & Soul is doing well in China, I'm just realistic and know that it isn't as much money as it sounds like from just the user numbers.
Same thing as if GW2 was released in China. It'll up the user numbers, but it isn't a directly proportional increase in profit as if they had that increase of users anywhere else. I don't change my feelings on how financials work just because of the game. :P
The weird part about this thread is that there isn't a single pay to win element in the entire game. You cannot buy power, period. Faster leveling? Hell, they give out scrolls to level you to 20, then additional items to add levels with a click (I got a handful of those in the WvW chest). Better gear? Nothing you can purchase. The top tier, which is marginally better than exotics, is ascended, and that's account bound when made, soulbound when used.
Well, you CAN buy legendaries. For hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and a .5% (Not 5 percent, .5%. That means for every 200 hits they do, it's like 201 hits from an exotic weapon ) increase in power over exotics which you can get with about 2-3 hours of work.
So technically you can buy a (very tiny) power increase that takes a bit of effort to match with pure ascendeds (Though not much effort at all to be 99.5% as good as)
Honestly, with a .5% increase? You'd do better spending your hundreds of dollars upgrading your internet or graphics card. It'd give you a better performance increase in both PvP and PvE.
The weird part about this thread is that there isn't a single pay to win element in the entire game. You cannot buy power, period. Faster leveling? Hell, they give out scrolls to level you to 20, then additional items to add levels with a click (I got a handful of those in the WvW chest). Better gear? Nothing you can purchase. The top tier, which is marginally better than exotics, is ascended, and that's account bound when made, soulbound when used.
Well, you CAN buy legendaries. For hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and a .5% (Not 5 percent, .5%. That means for every 200 hits they do, it's like 201 hits from an exotic weapon ) increase in power over exotics which you can get with about 2-3 hours of work.
So technically you can buy a (very tiny) power increase that takes a bit of effort to match with pure ascendeds (Though not much effort at all to be 99.5% as good as)
Honestly, with a .5% increase? You'd do better spending your hundreds of dollars upgrading your internet or graphics card. It'd give you a better performance increase in both PvP and PvE.
Ah, that's true, I forgot about that part. But hey, if someone wants to give ANet hundreds of dollars to buy a sword with the same stats as an ascended sword (and that other players are crafting anyhow) then that's good for the company. It's still not pay to win as they are buying the skins and effects instead of power however.
A lot of misinformation in your post so let me address it. WoW money doesn't go to ncsoft at all, wow is not owned by ncsoft.
MMORPGs in china have chinese publishers/localization, however, if you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that a game being hugely successful in china doesn't bring in money for the company that owns the IP rights, you simply lack an understanding of how these deals are negotiated.
Anyway we both know that if GW2 had released in CHINA you would be singing anet and ncsofts praise...
Also Blizzard makes a ton of money off of wow china, if you studied their financials you would know this. Please stop spreading misinformation and misconstruing it in a way that only benefits the image of gw2, stick to the facts.
Haha, I will admit that I messed up by typing 'Arenanet' instead of 'Blizzard, an artifact of trying to rush a post before work.
But other than that, everything I said is perfectly factual.
Yes, being hugely successful in China does bring in money for the company, but =not as much as it sounds like=.
That was just the whole point. Blizzard DOES make a lot of money off of WoW China... but not even close to as much as they'd make if they had that many extra users in the US or Europe. I'm not saying 'Companies don't make money off of their games released China', but just that it's a significantly smaller portion than it would be otherwise.
Also, you're being silly. I love Blade & Soul. I own multiple art books by the artist who did the design for it. I'm happy Blade & Soul is doing well in China, I'm just realistic and know that it isn't as much money as it sounds like from just the user numbers.
Same thing as if GW2 was released in China. It'll up the user numbers, but it isn't a directly proportional increase in profit as if they had that increase of users anywhere else. I don't change my feelings on how financials work just because of the game. :P
That's not because of the publishers, it is because of the chinese gaming culture, and the different standards for games there, blizzard is not sub-based in china. It would be like saying bmw would make more money if people bought their most luxurious model instead of the less luxurious models.
I think you are being silly, 1.8 million concurrent and an 18million estimated active is astronomical... but don't worry we will see it in the ncsoft financials in the next 6months-1year, and then we will revisit your notions.
I just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.
As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new.
You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.
As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new.
You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
There's a reason that the "slippery slope" argument is a bad one in debates. It assumes that going all the way down the "hill" is inevitable. It's not inevitable. The "toe" is not certainly going to be a "parade".
Unless of course you have an actual example, in a game based on the real world rather than just a fear of something to base your argument on.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.
As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new.
You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
I just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.
As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new.
You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
While I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.
The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
While I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.
The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.
This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
While I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.
The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.
This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets.
Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)
Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.
All I am saying is, it deserves watching.
And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.
BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
I'm impressed. I've never seen anyone demostrate so clearly that they have no idea what they're talking about so effectively before. You really have no idea what pay to win is, that's abundantly clear. The items, those are of convenience. Yeah, I've bought all the resource gathering ones... using in game gold converted to gems. I also haven't bothered with the copper salvage thing... we get so many of the mystic stones from achievement chests that I carry mystic salvage kits (250 charges) instead. So they're selling optional convenience items which you can get without spending a dime of real life cash and you're crying pay to win.
You need to get out, experience some actual pay to win game, then come back and admit how silly you looked before you knew better.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
You get top end gear for FREE if you play the game. In some games people can buy that top game gear. It is pay to win. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage in game that you paid money for, is pay to win. Even the most "innocent" boost is pay2win.
GW2 fanbois are the worst, because they refuse to admit things that are so plainly obvious, it's almost like you couldn't get them to admit gw2 is p2w unless you could buy the sword of 1000 truths in the shop, and even then they might not admit it.
But put the same things into WoW, and they will scream about how awful it is.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by VolkonOriginally posted by GeezerGamerWhile I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets. Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)
Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.
All I am saying is, it deserves watching.
And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.
BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.
Pahanda This question has been answered many times.
If the code is entered or redeemed on a webpage, it is an out-of-game item. Out-of-game items may not be exchanged for in-game currency (gold) or services. This applies to game time codes, pet store codes, and the TCG codes printed on the physical cards (among other things).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by neobahamut20 From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense. TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
Please, oh knowledgeable one, where is this definition of which you speak?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Actually, Blade & Soul Chinese money doesn't go directly to NCSoft, just like WoW money in china doesn't go directly to NCSoft.
MMORPGs in China are run by Chinese companies. It's the law.
So huge profits in China for an MMORPG <> the same huge profits for the actual company.
It's sort of like how I get annoyed when people try calculating how much money Blizzard is making by multiplying the amount of subscribers x a monthly fee, when MOST of the 'subscribers' are 1. Using time cards, and 2. In china, giving the money to a different company, which Blizzard only sees a fraction of.
A lot of misinformation in your post so let me address it. WoW money doesn't go to ncsoft at all, wow is not owned by ncsoft.
MMORPGs in china have chinese publishers/localization, however, if you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that a game being hugely successful in china doesn't bring in money for the company that owns the IP rights, you simply lack an understanding of how these deals are negotiated.
Anyway we both know that if GW2 had released in CHINA you would be singing anet and ncsofts praise...
Also Blizzard makes a ton of money off of wow china, if you studied their financials you would know this. Please stop spreading misinformation and misconstruing it in a way that only benefits the image of gw2, stick to the facts.
The weird part about this thread is that there isn't a single pay to win element in the entire game. You cannot buy power, period. Faster leveling? Hell, they give out scrolls to level you to 20, then additional items to add levels with a click (I got a handful of those in the WvW chest). Better gear? Nothing you can purchase. The top tier, which is marginally better than exotics, is ascended, and that's account bound when made, soulbound when used.
So when it comes to pay to win and GW2, I think Inigo Montoya said it best.
FUCK LOGICS!
The new pvp is to make shit up about gw2.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Haha, I will admit that I messed up by typing 'Arenanet' instead of 'Blizzard, an artifact of trying to rush a post before work.
But other than that, everything I said is perfectly factual.
Yes, being hugely successful in China does bring in money for the company, but =not as much as it sounds like=.
That was just the whole point. Blizzard DOES make a lot of money off of WoW China... but not even close to as much as they'd make if they had that many extra users in the US or Europe. I'm not saying 'Companies don't make money off of their games released China', but just that it's a significantly smaller portion than it would be otherwise.
Also, you're being silly. I love Blade & Soul. I own multiple art books by the artist who did the design for it. I'm happy Blade & Soul is doing well in China, I'm just realistic and know that it isn't as much money as it sounds like from just the user numbers.
Same thing as if GW2 was released in China. It'll up the user numbers, but it isn't a directly proportional increase in profit as if they had that increase of users anywhere else. I don't change my feelings on how financials work just because of the game. :P
Well, you CAN buy legendaries. For hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and a .5% (Not 5 percent, .5%. That means for every 200 hits they do, it's like 201 hits from an exotic weapon
) increase in power over exotics which you can get with about 2-3 hours of work.
So technically you can buy a (very tiny) power increase that takes a bit of effort to match with pure ascendeds (Though not much effort at all to be 99.5% as good as)
Honestly, with a .5% increase? You'd do better spending your hundreds of dollars upgrading your internet or graphics card. It'd give you a better performance increase in both PvP and PvE.
Ah, that's true, I forgot about that part. But hey, if someone wants to give ANet hundreds of dollars to buy a sword with the same stats as an ascended sword (and that other players are crafting anyhow) then that's good for the company. It's still not pay to win as they are buying the skins and effects instead of power however.
That's not because of the publishers, it is because of the chinese gaming culture, and the different standards for games there, blizzard is not sub-based in china. It would be like saying bmw would make more money if people bought their most luxurious model instead of the less luxurious models.
I think you are being silly, 1.8 million concurrent and an 18million estimated active is astronomical... but don't worry we will see it in the ncsoft financials in the next 6months-1year, and then we will revisit your notions.
I just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.
As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new.
You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
There's a reason that the "slippery slope" argument is a bad one in debates. It assumes that going all the way down the "hill" is inevitable. It's not inevitable. The "toe" is not certainly going to be a "parade".
Unless of course you have an actual example, in a game based on the real world rather than just a fear of something to base your argument on.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
Oderint, dum metuant.
While I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.
The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.
This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets.
Oderint, dum metuant.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)
Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.
All I am saying is, it deserves watching.
And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.
BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.
I'm impressed. I've never seen anyone demostrate so clearly that they have no idea what they're talking about so effectively before. You really have no idea what pay to win is, that's abundantly clear. The items, those are of convenience. Yeah, I've bought all the resource gathering ones... using in game gold converted to gems. I also haven't bothered with the copper salvage thing... we get so many of the mystic stones from achievement chests that I carry mystic salvage kits (250 charges) instead. So they're selling optional convenience items which you can get without spending a dime of real life cash and you're crying pay to win.
You need to get out, experience some actual pay to win game, then come back and admit how silly you looked before you knew better.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
You get top end gear for FREE if you play the game. In some games people can buy that top game gear. It is pay to win. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage in game that you paid money for, is pay to win. Even the most "innocent" boost is pay2win.
GW2 fanbois are the worst, because they refuse to admit things that are so plainly obvious, it's almost like you couldn't get them to admit gw2 is p2w unless you could buy the sword of 1000 truths in the shop, and even then they might not admit it.
But put the same things into WoW, and they will scream about how awful it is.
Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)
Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.
All I am saying is, it deserves watching.
And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.
BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.
From Blizzard Support Thread:
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Please, oh knowledgeable one, where is this definition of which you speak?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.