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Time and Money: how we are robbed and ruined by MMO companies

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    My game experience has not been changed by any f2p/b2p game as opposed to p2p with the exception of swtor.

    I'd agree with that ( not sure why swtor ? ) I've avoided games that force the cash shop on you all the time, so for me while I'm playing I really notice very little difference. 

    Although to be fair I almost never play any of these games totally free.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    My game experience has not been changed by any f2p/b2p game as opposed to p2p with the exception of swtor.

    Not even by frequent locked chest drops and infrequent key drops?

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Look, the point is this: Back in Everquest II I became noble and "Sir" Elikal after years of hard work IN THE GAME. I did a lot of status quests for my guild. Now in EQ Landmarks you BUY a title for $90. THAT is what is plain wrong, because games SHOULD NOT BE about how much money you have, but how good, patient and dedicated IN the game you are.

    Being able to BUY all that stuff makes it worthless and ruins all sense of accomplishment!

    Put simply, once upon a time people played MMOs to get what they wanted - Titles, items, status, etc. And everyone had the same challenges and requirements to fulfill to do so.

    Now, people pay their way through MMOs to get what they want. Anything that involves playing the game is seen as an obstacle (or a "grind") getting in the way of what they want. Being able to buy their way around it is considered a good thing.

    When someone says "$15 a month to play a MMO is a rip-off", because "their time is too limited to make it worthwhile", but then turns around and argues that $20+ in a single purchase is a great deal, because "they chose to spend it", then that's really saying it all.

    Seriously. That's a popular argument used by many who defend F2P/Cash Shops; "it's a great deal because I choose to pay it".

    In a nutshell:

    • Limited time + $15/mth flat cost for access to everything = Bad Deal.
    • Limited time + upwards of $20 (or more) for a single transaction = Great Deal.

    That's their.. -ahem- "logic". Just think about that and it starts to make sense.

    When people are willing and eager to dupe themselves into that kind of thinking, is it any wonder developers/publishers aren't embracing and cashing in on it as much as they can? They don't even have to sell people on the idea. The people are selling themselves.

    Developers are able to eliminate monthly subs because, frankly, they can.

    Indeed.

    The irony is, many people say: "Oh but I am not FORCED to buy anything." Yeah. Tell that yourself when EVERYONE has cool costumes, when everyone is dressed like Lord Fancypants and you wear sackcloth. Every day. Tell that yourself when all your guildmates have flaming swords and ride flying unicorns farting rainbows and you have to walk. Tell that yourself when they all live in Golden Castle Asgard and you live on the street.

    No. Nobody "forces" you to do anything. That's tghe evil trick of Capitalism. It gives you the sense of false freedom.

     

    Let me give you an example from my RL: The GDR. The Socialist Germany. The West always said: oh those poor people, you can not travel, bad bad Socialism, you can't even travel when you want. Now we are all in Capitalism, because the West "won". And I still can't travel, because I am unemployed. As are 75% of all people I know. Did we gain an INCH of freedom? No. We didn't.

    Because Freedom is MEANINGLESS if you have no money in capitalism. Freedom has only meaning if you have ressources. Without any ressource, a freedom is just a a word on a paper. It is nothing. Oh you can say your opinion now without the evil socialist government  listening. Oh wait... you can't!

    Mind ya, I am no Socialist because I know first hand how Socialsm sucks in many ways. But at least the people in CUBA all have teeth. And that is maybe also worth something, no?

     

    Now bend that back to games. Yes companies do grab money for nothing because they can. But not everything that competes with capitalist greed is GOOD and RIGHT, because if we follow that logic down the road, we have people who can afford teeth and people who can't and at least *I* do not want a world where we accept such differences. I can not chance the world, and I gave up long ago. But at least in GAMES I would want real life money OUT. It is bad enough the real world has poor vs rich. But now the SAME rich vs poor combat entered games and that sucks. And if you dont get this, you never HAVE been poor and you have no idea how it is. It sucks our your very life. But at least I could escape into games and have a good time for a while, until the rich folks in RL started to have more and look better in GAMES too, and that makes me simply angry, because in games I dont NOT want to see the same spoiled people who grew up with silver spoons be rich in the GAMES JUST AGAIN because they have rich parents!

    That should never ever had entered the games.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    Often you see posts here about MMO quality expressed as "Is it a world or is it a game?" If there's a cash shop and microtransactions in it, it has no hope in hell of being a world.

    What if the cash shops are run by players? Say a crafter made something, set up a stall in town and sold his stuff for real money. The player could be making the same fluff the developers sell in their cash shop.

    That sounds like a world to me and not a game.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    Limited time + $15 flat cost = Bad Deal.

    Limited time + $20 (or more) = Great Deal.

     

    First of all ... about this. You are missing many factors.

     

    P2P - Limited time + Box price $60 + $15 per month = Bad Deal (You have no choice when or how much to pay if you want to play it)

    F2P - Limited time + Free (with the occasional purchase) = Great deal (You have a choice of when and how much you are willing to pay and your not obligated to pay at all when you want to play)

    B2P - Limited time + Box Price (Never having to pay ever again) = Also great deal. (you do have the option to pay a little more if you want cash shop items, but they are most certainly not required and are only for looks usually.

     

    See the issue is, you are only viewing it the way you want to view it, and not for how it actually is. In other words, you are viewing it through you own tainted eye glasses. So, who's logic is wrong?

    But hey lets go a step further.

    A person can play a year on a F2P game and only spend $60 total through out the entire time. They can spend 0. Or they can spend 100s. While a P2P game It's $60 +15 x 11 = $225. 

    So again .. tell me which is the better deal?

    I know your feelings on the subject quite well, and you know mine.

     

    The one thing that is usually not mentioned is that the game experience itself is changed by the intrusion of marketing in the F2P or B2P + light cash shop in the game.

     

    The best analogy that I can think of is free TV where you get 40 minutes of content and 20 minutes of ads per hour vs. premium pay channels like HBO with no advertising. Game of Thrones just wouldn't be the same with the reduced content to fit a one hour commercial TV slot with all the ad interruptions.

     

    I get that some don't seem to mind the MMO + sales environment of F2P, and if you're one of those not bothered by it, it's a good deal. But it does annoy me.

     

    Often you see posts here about MMO quality expressed as "Is it a world or is it a game?" If there's a cash shop and microtransactions in it, it has no hope in hell of being a world.

    haha lol ya. I know your stance very well on this subject.

    I don't necessary disagree with you. I just think you judge free to play way to harshly is all.

    On TV .. you can't skip a commercial, far as I am aware, while on an mmo, it's not as intrusive and doesn't actually get in the way of enjoying the game itself really. 

    I realize for you, that may not be the case. However, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the F2P model.

     

    you are 100% correct though when you say it doesn't bother some. Such as myself. Doesn't bother me one bit lol. XD

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 

    I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.

     

    Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    Often you see posts here about MMO quality expressed as "Is it a world or is it a game?" If there's a cash shop and microtransactions in it, it has no hope in hell of being a world.

    What if the cash shops are run by players? Say a crafter made something, set up a stall in town and sold his stuff for real money. The player could be making the same fluff the developers sell in their cash shop.

    That sounds like a world to me and not a game.

    Regardless of who is selling it, once your Visa card comes into the equation, it's an in-game reminder that it's a game isn't it?

     

    The basic difference between F2P and P2P is that in P2P the account cost and transactions all happen outside the game. It's a subtle but important distinction with respect to keeping the fantasy world consistent and apart from RL.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 

    I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.

     

    Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.

    Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • jerlot65jerlot65 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    I hate to say it, but 99% of what we spend money and time on is pretty much a "waste".  How we choose to live our lives is only good or bad to the person who is living that life.  So playing video games is no different than pretty much any other activity we do to "pass the time".

    image
  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 606
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by rnor6084

    There are obviously some "rich" vs "poor" issues in the OP.

    What is wrong with that?

    I live in US, but tell me: have you ever seen obnoxious, arrogant  selfobserved poor person?

    Yeah, every single person in the projects/ghetto. And I think you meant selfabsorbed.

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 

    I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.

     

    Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.

    Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.

    That explains it.  I've only played Rift and GW2 for a few days, never saw them then.

    EQ, EQ2, CoH, VG, Aion (what I recall), TSW, GW2 (so far anyway) I haven't seen them yet.

    I will say that swtor bugged me.  I didn't get any ads or anything popping up in my face it was just an annoyance regarding everything else, limited hot bars and especially every time I got a reward it always aid with a membership you could get this... that was annoying to me.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • jerlot65jerlot65 Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Sorry folks but F2P isn't F2P.  Everybody so quick to not want to pay for a product then turnaround and want to bash companies for trying to make any kind of money.  You cannot have things for free end of story.  if you dont pay for it with cash, you will pay for it in quality.

    image
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 

    I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.

     

    Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.

    Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.

    That explains it.  I've only played Rift and GW2 for a few days, never saw them then.

    EQ, EQ2, CoH, VG, Aion (what I recall), TSW, GW2 (so far anyway) I haven't seen them yet.

    I will say that swtor bugged me.  I didn't get any ads or anything popping up in my face it was just an annoyance regarding everything else, limited hot bars and especially every time I got a reward it always aid with a membership you could get this... that was annoying to me.

    Ah I never played swtor free so I never got to experience that and have never played rift or neverwinter ( after launch ) 

    TERA has lock boxes but they don't drop keys so if you're never going to buy a key you just don't bother picking them up. Everything on the cash shop can and is sold on the AH so you can totally ignore it if you want. I do all my buying when I feel like buying. While you're playing the game it's not in your face. ( or at least I don't think it is )

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    Do you apply this same drive in the real world? :)

    image
  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643

    Nice,

    Complaining that you can't be in Alpha because you don't want to pay the money.

    EQN could be a part of this discussion when we see what the live in-game business model is.

    Complaining about a company charging people to play the game first in a alpha or beta state is moronic.

    People are paying so they get a guarantee that they will be in before other people. 

    I guess having codes on a random site or random selection would be better.  Maybe.

    But they can make a lot of money by selling founder packs.  And so they are.  That's reality.  Get used to it.

     

    The other general argument has points.  Complaining about Landmark makes you come off as a just being jealous.

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    I completely agree with Elikal, but we have to see the root of the problem here. Like many people (including myself) have pointed out many times in my different threads about the same thing, The gaming industry (in this case the mmo) will only get worse because people keep supporting garbage. A company finds a way to become a cash grab, they are more than happy to get all that money and not care about the players. Everything falls on our own heads if we keep paying and supporting their greedy practices. And some people defend that crap by saying "oh i have the money so i dont care, get a job blah blah" just making it worse.....

    If people refuse to accept all this money grab crap, actually provide critical feedback instead of trolling or bashing their forums and in game chat, but most importantly REFUSE to pay for their cash grab crap! then they will know they are doing it wrong and will do their best to fix it or they will lose money and eventually suffer as a company. Just because they are in for business does not mean we have to pay for crap.





  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    Do you apply this same drive in the real world? :)

    Hehe yes. XD XD You should see me explode about politics. ;)

    I take all things with fire, or not at all. I am not a person for half assed approaches.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    Naw. By and large they don't support garbage.

    They disagree with you that it is garbage.

    I myself don't think games are any worse, and in some ways a lot better, than games 10 years ago.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    Do you apply this same drive in the real world? :)

    Hehe yes. XD XD You should see me explode about politics. ;)

    I take all things with fire, or not at all. I am not a person for half assed approaches.

    So you feel that unless you explode with fire, it's half-assed?

    I ususally think exploding in fire yields half-assed results.

    Interesting.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    Do you apply this same drive in the real world? :)

    Hehe yes. XD XD You should see me explode about politics. ;)

    I take all things with fire, or not at all. I am not a person for half assed approaches.

    So you feel that unless you explode with fire, it's half-assed?

    I ususally think exploding in fire yields half-assed results.

    Interesting.

    I know from experience that yeah maybe sometimes being too much on fire can harm the strategy. But I can't help it. I always was passionate about things.

    [mod edit]

    And HELL YES. Its yes or no, black or white, true or false! You ride into battle with cavalry yelling and then let the (s)words decide!

    Tally-ho!

    I'd want it no other way. The only limit I put on myself: I do not do personal attacks. I fight over ideas, thoughts, views, not people.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    This is all nice and dandy, but hey ... that isn't how things work anymore. I do suppose I agree with you though. I certainly don't support P2P though.

    I am  more of a firm believer of the B2P model .. pay once ... and it's yours forever. No cash shops.

    Sadly .. no one uses that model lol.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Elikal

    You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.

    Like in SWG or UO.

    All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.

    There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.

     

    All is crafted and sold ingame.

    End of story.

    Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.

     

    I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.

     

    This.

    Do you apply this same drive in the real world? :)

    Hehe yes. XD XD You should see me explode about politics. ;)

    I take all things with fire, or not at all. I am not a person for half assed approaches.

    So you feel that unless you explode with fire, it's half-assed?

    I ususally think exploding in fire yields half-assed results.

    Interesting.

    I know from experience that yeah maybe sometimes being too much on fire can harm the strategy. But I can't help it. I always was passionate about things.

    [mod edit]

    And HELL YES. Its yes or no, black or white, true or false! You ride into battle with cavalry yelling and then let the (s)words decide!

    Tally-ho!

    I'd want it no other way. The only limit I put on myself: I do not do personal attacks. I fight over ideas, thoughts, views, not people.

    But after the battle they always end up at the table figuring out what needs to be done.

    So just skip the battle and get to that part whenever possible.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • spizzspizz Member UncommonPosts: 1,971
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open. 

    I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.

     

    Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.

    Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.

     

    There are more games out there with locked boxes combined with an offer to buy keys from an ingame shop.

     

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