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Star Citizen or Elite: Dangerous?

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  • VolkmarVolkmar Member UncommonPosts: 2,501

    As much as I prefer Star Citizen over ED, I am vey excited by the fact both projects are getting along nicely. I played both Elite and Wing Commander in my youth and loved botj of them for widely different reasons. Also no one here has a crystall ball, so having 2 horses in the competition doubles our chances that one of them will not be an ashtmatic lame donkey.

    Long live the PC and the Space Sim genre!

    "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"



  • mayito7777mayito7777 Member UncommonPosts: 768
    Elite starts at $150, kind of steep to just start that way. No a whole a lot of people can afford that.

    want 7 free days of playing? Try this

    http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY

  • sgelsgel Member EpicPosts: 2,197
    Originally posted by mayito7777
    Elite starts at $150, kind of steep to just start that way. No a whole a lot of people can afford that.

    It's expensive yeah... however you get ALL expansions for free with that.

    If you're planning to play it for a long time.. or are eager to play it now... it's worth it.

     

    ..Cake..

  • william0532william0532 Member Posts: 251

    Why just argue about Elite Vs Star Citizen, seems like a great time for sci fi fans period, with others coming as well.

     

    Plenty of good points about Star Citizen and Elite have been made. Pretty sure everyone gets the gist of both(I'm playing both, so I gives a damn about saying which is "best" lol.

    However, my big fault still lies in how segmented the mmo versions are. Both will allow you to avoid PvP(I know, a plus for a lot, just my quirk) with Star Citizen having a bit more complexity, which I'm sure Elite will do the same as well. However, if your an EVE fan(and I doubt there are many here, on this site), both seem pretty uninspiring if your looking for the original open world setup of the older mmo's, before they became single player themepark machines.

    Any way, there are other sci fi games featuring space combat in the work that have me interested as well.

    First, the one that could hold potential for an EVE fan; Limit Theory

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4mchQbkE7ssZYXIgaY4PHg

    Kind of worrisome as it seems like only one guy working on it, but holy crap it's developing a lot of complexity if you like that sort of thing. No dogfighting though, sadly. Still pretty damn interesting.

    Than you have No Mans Sky, it has space ships, and dinosaurs? Graphics are a little dated, but definitely looks like it could be very fun(however, it sounds like it's going to be very splintered in the multiplayer realm, which is sad. Plus it's a timed exclusive with PS4, coming to computers later. Though it gives me that SWG vibe, but better(minus all the tab target mmo stuff, but hell, I only did the planet **** in Star Wars Galaxies too compete in space lol)

     

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne Member UncommonPosts: 1,549
    Originally posted by william0532

    Why just argue about Elite Vs Star Citizen, seems like a great time for sci fi fans period, with others coming as well.

     

    Plenty of good points about Star Citizen and Elite have been made. Pretty sure everyone gets the gist of both(I'm playing both, so I gives a damn about saying which is "best" lol.

    However, my big fault still lies in how segmented the mmo versions are. Both will allow you to avoid PvP(I know, a plus for a lot, just my quirk) with Star Citizen having a bit more complexity, which I'm sure Elite will do the same as well. However, if your an EVE fan(and I doubt there are many here, on this site), both seem pretty uninspiring if your looking for the original open world setup of the older mmo's, before they became single player themepark machines.

    Any way, there are other sci fi games featuring space combat in the work that have me interested as well.

    First, the one that could hold potential for an EVE fan; Limit Theory

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4mchQbkE7ssZYXIgaY4PHg

    Kind of worrisome as it seems like only one guy working on it, but holy crap it's developing a lot of complexity if you like that sort of thing. No dogfighting though, sadly. Still pretty damn interesting.

    Than you have No Mans Sky, it has space ships, and dinosaurs? Graphics are a little dated, but definitely looks like it could be very fun(however, it sounds like it's going to be very splintered in the multiplayer realm, which is sad. Plus it's a timed exclusive with PS4, coming to computers later. Though it gives me that SWG vibe, but better(minus all the tab target mmo stuff, but hell, I only did the planet **** in Star Wars Galaxies too compete in space lol)

     

     

    In Elite: Dangerous, if you like PvP the servers will expose you more to other players who like PvP, but the servers will expose you less to players who don't like PvP. 

     

    Effectively what this does is prevent griefing for players who don't want to be griefed. 

     

    David Braben, the main creator of Elite: Dangerous, wants to encourage players to help each other rather than gank each other.

     

    Elite: Dangerous shouldn't resemble the dystopian universe that is Eve, but I see this as a good thing. I would prefer to play something uplifting, rather than play a game that might result in anger.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,343

    Both games will be good IMHO.  Gameplay wise Elite Dangerous = pitch/roll airplane dogfighting and Star Citizen looks like it will have better pitch/yaw gameplay.

    It is very early in Arena Commander for SC so this may change as it gets tweaked.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • No Man's Sky also looks pretty cool, despite the cartoony art style. I think the games will release well apart from each other so I don't think there will be all that much competition between them in actual Real Life(tm).

    Limit Theory looks quite interesting, too.

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.Member UncommonPosts: 999
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

     David Braben, the main creator of Elite: Dangerous, wants to encourage players to help each other rather than gank each other.

    That is the million dollar question. How exactly will you help someone?

    This game is drowning in protection from that bad ole boogyman called pvp.

    It is basically a pve experience with no real sandbox mechanics other than you can explore the galaxy for the next 40 years in real time.

     

    I also believe the p2p 32 player instancing network will be a massive fail.

     

    As far as SC is concerned I will take a look at the game when it releases in 2017/2018 and see if I want to purchase the final product.

  • shadylurkershadylurker Member Posts: 47
    Originally posted by Saxx0n
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

     David Braben, the main creator of Elite: Dangerous, wants to encourage players to help each other rather than gank each other.

    That is the million dollar question. How exactly will you help someone?

    This game is drowning in protection from that bad ole boogyman called pvp.

    It is basically a pve experience with no real sandbox mechanics other than you can explore the galaxy for the next 40 years in real time.

     

    I also believe the p2p 32 player instancing network will be a massive fail.

     

    As far as SC is concerned I will take a look at the game when it releases in 2017/2018 and see if I want to purchase the final product.

     

     

    They have already stated there are tons of catches to the pvp instancing, if you earn a bounty, even against an NPC all that PVP avoidance goes right out the window, there are multiple other catches for it too.  

    They have also talked about federal security and what not, much like high sec - null sec in eve. PVP does not = sandbox

     

    I also disagree with the 32 player instancing, I don't see how that will work with big groups of people that want to fight it out. 

    It will however work perfectly for 95% of the players (myself included) whom are going to go about exploring and exploiting the 400billion systems.  Player interactions for the lone wolf or small group types will end up being rare in the vast unkown and will ultimately become tense situations.

     

    The corporations and economy will be very interesting, no sole player will dominate a planet but they and all the others can choose who to work for, which is cool in my book.

     

    I like the way elite is panning out more-so than SC so I supported them and have to say it's already a great beta.  If SC turns out decent I will support it eventually.

  • darkpastordarkpastor Member Posts: 8

    As has been written earlier in the thread, SC is currently a shop (with hangar), and will remain a promise for a very long time. The ED is coming out this year. So, we can play and enjoy ED (or not) and then SC if the promises will ever become true.

    The bloated budget means nothing when it comes to games or movies. Both industries prove over and over that you can spend tens of billions and deliver total crap in the end. Or you can spend pennies and deliver a gem.

  • screecwescreecwe Member UncommonPosts: 127
    Originally posted by darkpastor

    As has been written earlier in the thread, SC is currently a shop (with hangar), and will remain a promise for a very long time. The ED is coming out this year. So, we can play and enjoy ED (or not) and then SC if the promises will ever become true.

    The bloated budget means nothing when it comes to games or movies. Both industries prove over and over that you can spend tens of billions and deliver total crap in the end. Or you can spend pennies and deliver a gem.

    Uhhh...

  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by mayito7777
    Elite starts at $150, kind of steep to just start that way. No a whole a lot of people can afford that.

     

    It does not start at $150.  It starts at $50 for the base game.   You can pick up the expansion pass for another $50.  If you want to play right now then its another $50 (for a total of $150, base game + expansion pass+early beta).  If you want to wait for the normal beta than its only $25 more than the base game (so total of $75, base game + beta).  

     

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Originally posted by TheYear1500
    Originally posted by mayito7777
    Elite starts at $150, kind of steep to just start that way. No a whole a lot of people can afford that.

     

    It does not start at $150.  It starts at $50 for the base game.   You can pick up the expansion pass for another $50.  If you want to play right now then its another $50 (for a total of $150, base game + expansion pass+early beta).  If you want to wait for the normal beta than its only $25 more than the base game (so total of $75, base game + beta).  

     

    If you want to play now it is $150. This point is not arguable as it is what it is. Star Citizen is about $35 ($30 Aurora package + $5 AC Pass). That is quite a price difference. If you compare Alpha costs it's even more as Elite was around $300 for Alpha access for those that missed out on the Kickstarter. Not sure what Braben is thinking as he'd most probably make a crap load more money if he lowered the cost. His greed is his own worst enemy. A large part of Star Citizen's huge success is the low barrier for entry. Just about anyone can afford to get into SC even at this point.  It would have never made 46 million dollars charging Elite prices.

     

    Don't get me wrong as I've said many times I think Elite is a great game with great potential but the pricing is a little insane.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    Elite Dangerous, for sure,I am full supporting this game  & devs,they spend money  for making game not for personal stuff  as Chris.

    ED is worth 150$ but SC is not worth 30$

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
    Elite Dangerous, for sure,I am full supporting this game  & devs,they spend money  for making game not for personal stuff  as Chris.

    What personal stuff? Care to elaborate on that?

     

    EDIT: Well you made your edit while I was originally posting this so it's pretty much a given you've read it. Taking this into consideration along with your post history and 20 minutes with no reply to prove your accusations can we assume that you are spewing BS out of your Rectum as usual? I thought as much.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    If you want to play now it is $150. This point is not arguable as it is what it is. Star Citizen is about $35 ($30 Aurora package + $5 AC Pass). That is quite a price difference. If you compare Alpha costs it's even more as Elite was around $300 for Alpha access for those that missed out on the Kickstarter. Not sure what Braben is thinking as he'd most probably make a crap load more money if he lowered the cost. His greed is his own worst enemy. A large part of Star Citizen's huge success is the low barrier for entry. Just about anyone can afford to get into SC even at this point.  It would have never made 46 million dollars charging Elite prices. Don't get me wrong as I've said many times I think Elite is a great game with great potential but the pricing is a little insane. Bren

    Insane as opposed to 15.000 USD package for SC...?

    CR is using the alpha/beta development for marketing and making money, providing microstransactions for game that does not even exist yet.

    Yet, you call Braben greedy because he does not milk as much money from people like CR does...?

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    If you want to play now it is $150. This point is not arguable as it is what it is. Star Citizen is about $35 ($30 Aurora package + $5 AC Pass). That is quite a price difference. If you compare Alpha costs it's even more as Elite was around $300 for Alpha access for those that missed out on the Kickstarter. Not sure what Braben is thinking as he'd most probably make a crap load more money if he lowered the cost. His greed is his own worst enemy. A large part of Star Citizen's huge success is the low barrier for entry. Just about anyone can afford to get into SC even at this point.  It would have never made 46 million dollars charging Elite prices.

     

     

    Don't get me wrong as I've said many times I think Elite is a great game with great potential but the pricing is a little insane.

     

    Bren


     

    Insane as opposed to 15.000 USD package for SC...?

    CR is using the alpha/beta development for marketing and making money, providing microstransactions for game that does not even exist yet.

    Yet, you call Braben greedy because he does not milk as much money from people like CR does...?

     

    The difference is you don't have to spend more than $35 to get into SC. You can spend more if YOU choose to do so. For Elite it's $150 minimum if you want to play now. Are you really arguing that people have to spend $15,000 to get into SC? That would be insane but it's far from the reality of the situation.

     

    Edit: I will admit however that greed may have been too harsh a word to use as it applies to all developers including CIG. They are a business after all and greed is a part of that. No developer is a non-profit entity. They are all greedy to some degree as they naturally want to make money for their work.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

    If you want to play now it is $150. This point is not arguable as it is what it is. Star Citizen is about $35 ($30 Aurora package + $5 AC Pass). That is quite a price difference. If you compare Alpha costs it's even more as Elite was around $300 for Alpha access for those that missed out on the Kickstarter. Not sure what Braben is thinking as he'd most probably make a crap load more money if he lowered the cost. His greed is his own worst enemy. A large part of Star Citizen's huge success is the low barrier for entry. Just about anyone can afford to get into SC even at this point.  It would have never made 46 million dollars charging Elite prices.

     

     

    Don't get me wrong as I've said many times I think Elite is a great game with great potential but the pricing is a little insane.

     

    Bren


     

    Insane as opposed to 15.000 USD package for SC...?

    CR is using the alpha/beta development for marketing and making money, providing microstransactions for game that does not even exist yet.

    Yet, you call Braben greedy because he does not milk as much money from people like CR does...?

     

    Any self financed development team will be greedy, they cannot afford not to be since they don't have the big corporation backing em. So I say milk away !

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by BrenelaelThe difference is you don't have to spend more than $35 to get into SC. You can spend more if YOU choose to do so. For Elite it's $150 minimum if you want to play now. Are you really arguing that people have to spend $15,000 to get into SC? That would be insane but it's far from the reality of the situation. Edit: I will admit however that greed may have been too harsh a word to use as it applies to all developers including CIG. They are a business after all and greed is a part of that. No developer is a non-profit entity. They are all greedy to some degree as they naturally want to make money for their work. Bren

    You are the one arguing that people have to do something. Neither you have to spent 15k USD on SC nor you have to spent 150 USD on Elite.

    You can spent as much as 50 USD on ED and if you want, you can also spent 150 USD. Double measures of the blind folded...


    The thing you are not telling tho is how incorporated cash shop is in SC and the "access" to the game. You are not paying money just for access to the module but you are paying for ship you will fly with... have fun in PVP with the loner.


    Greed was not a harsh word, just used incorrectly, the "greedy" guy of the two is CR.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

     

    The difference is you don't have to spend more than $35 to get into SC. You can spend more if YOU choose to do so. For Elite it's $150 minimum if you want to play now. Are you really arguing that people have to spend $15,000 to get into SC? That would be insane but it's far from the reality of the situation.

     

    Edit: I will admit however that greed may have been too harsh a word to use as it applies to all developers including CIG. They are a business after all and greed is a part of that. No developer is a non-profit entity. They are all greedy to some degree as they naturally want to make money for their work.

     

    Bren


     

    You are the one arguing that people have to do something. Neither you have to spent 15k USD on SC nor you have to spent 150 USD on Elite.

    You can spent as much as 50 USD on ED and if you want, you can also spent 150 USD. Double measures of the blind folded...


    The thing you are not telling tho is how incorporated cash shop is in SC and the "access" to the game. You are not paying money just for access to the module but you are paying for ship you will fly with... have fun in PVP with the loner.


    Greed was not a harsh word, just used incorrectly, the "greedy" guy of the two is CR.

    Look... All I was trying to say is the barrier to entry is a lot lower for SC than ED which it is.

     

    Elite's barrier to entry right now is $150.

    Star Citizen's barrier to entry right now is $35.

     

    These are just the facts. You can argue about it as much as you want it still won't change the facts. Facts are facts and that's it. Period.

     

    Also if you knew anything about how the ships actually perform in AC you wouldn't have made this statement in red as it's just asinine at best. You know nothing about what you speak on this subject and should just stop now.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Member UncommonPosts: 853
    I pledged for star citizen but really don't want to wait till 2017 for that game, and Elite looks like a really damn good game atm.
  • TyrokiTyroki Member UncommonPosts: 183
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Brenelael

     

    The difference is you don't have to spend more than $35 to get into SC. You can spend more if YOU choose to do so. For Elite it's $150 minimum if you want to play now. Are you really arguing that people have to spend $15,000 to get into SC? That would be insane but it's far from the reality of the situation.

     

    Edit: I will admit however that greed may have been too harsh a word to use as it applies to all developers including CIG. They are a business after all and greed is a part of that. No developer is a non-profit entity. They are all greedy to some degree as they naturally want to make money for their work.

     

    Bren


     

    You are the one arguing that people have to do something. Neither you have to spent 15k USD on SC nor you have to spent 150 USD on Elite.

    You can spent as much as 50 USD on ED and if you want, you can also spent 150 USD. Double measures of the blind folded...


    The thing you are not telling tho is how incorporated cash shop is in SC and the "access" to the game. You are not paying money just for access to the module but you are paying for ship you will fly with... have fun in PVP with the loner.


    Greed was not a harsh word, just used incorrectly, the "greedy" guy of the two is CR.

    Wow. I haven't logged on to this site in forever.

    Had to go through the process of trying to remember my password, just to reply to you.

    You've actually got it absolutely wrong. This is coming from someone who only spent $45 on Star Citizen, so keep that in mind. For $45 (50 if I hadn't been one of the Alpha slot peeps), I get:

    *The full single player game when it's done (Squadron 42)

    *The full massive multiplayer experience and persistent world (Star Citizen)

    *My variant of the Aurora ship (which in the full game will be purchasable by anyone. Like every other ship. Heck, from my understanding, we'll be able to group buy ships. Which is good, because screw buying a 20 man ship solo haha!)

    *An initial 3 month insurance plan on my ship (which will be purchasable by anyone in game, and renewable by myself. It just means I get to start out playing like a lunatic without blowing my ship up.

    *Some extra starting credits in game (because who doesn't like buying able to buy in game stuff sooner, without worrying about some premium cash gumming up the works for everyone else)

    *Various bits and bobs (like a manual, and any of the stretch goal bonuses that came after I joined (one of the last 500 people, so I didn't get all the shinies. My fault really. Should've jumped on it sooner as planned)

    *Alpha Access (which is currently the Hanger and Arena Commander modules)

    *Beta Access (Eeeyup. We haven't even gotten to this stage yet.)

    Also from my understanding of all the information given to us, any ship you buy in the single player game can be chosen to move across to the multiplayer game. How that will work all up, I'm not sure. Currently we're hoping our entire hanger ships over. Yes, that includes the ship we purchased. Not that it matters. Once the bigger ships are in Arena Commander, we can help our buddies fly their big ships. I have one that has an 8 man ship ready to go, because he had money and deemed it worthy. We have no clue how it'll all work, but my guess is you'll be able to join in on other peoples ships during Arena Commander to fill the void.

    That's one of the biggest pulls, mind you. The ability to have multiple people in the bigger ships (bigger than the one seaters, that is). I'm already pitched to be Chief Engineer once our group works our way up to the bigger ships, when the full game is out.

    Sooo. That one ship we paid for, that we have access to in Arena Commander? Yeah, that's just a prepaid thing to crowdfund them. We get both full games too, when they're released.

    Quite a lot for $45. Cheapest package was $30, though that now doesn't give Alpha, as the Alpha slots are all gone. People can still play Arena Commander for $5 though. So $35 is the cheapest package.

    $15k? That was a one off from my understanding, which one person bought, because only one was available. Y'know, like a Kickstarter tends to go that high for the bigger games, and is normally limited in how many can buy them.

    Most people I know of have spent well under $100 to pledge for Star Citizen. Those that pledge more, like on a Kickstarter, get more. Better ships? Now they don't have to spend ages in game doing missions or what have you to earn the bigger stuff. One of my mates got an Avenger, as he intends to be a Bounty Hunter come the full game. They gave him a temporary Hornet for Arena Commander, as his ship isn't in the game fully yet.

    As for Elite: Dangerous, I read their write up. I read their 'comparisons' between them and Star Citizen, and them and EVE: Online. It came off as more than a little pretentious. You have fun with your night infinite universe, populated by next to no one because everyone can have themselves a solar system. Yes, you have fun with that. I think I'll quite enjoy Star Citizens what, '150 hand crafted systems' as the Elite: Dangerous people said? Hand crafted sounds pretty darn good to me. Better than random, procedurally generated blech that ends up repeating over and over.

    Heck. Star Citizen has a show that allows people to go hard and build ships, and even get them in the game. Are they technically doing the developers job for them? Yes. Did that competition show even the devs things they had no clue you could do? Oh yes. Will the devs have to improve now because of their own show? Yes, and they even admitted it.

    Very much looking forward to this hand-crafted romp through space. Very much looking forward to having a Firefly-esque experience with my friends. Very much looking forward to a game that will actually cater to the things we've wanted in a space game for years.

    Do I think CR is greedy? No. No I do not. He's not demanding we all pay him money. He's asking, so we don't have to deal with publishers screwing over what could be a great game. I've played CR games. They were quality experiences.

    The bar is set high, and he knows it. We all have great expectations. He doesn't want to fuck it up. How do I know this? Space sims have been his shtick since the beginning.

    But it's a pretty standard thing. You'll like your thing. I'll like mine.

    But it's best if you don't go misrepresenting Star Citizen, just because you think your game is better (The things I've said about yours are out for the world to see, and your community thusfar has been... rather... malignant)

    Keep to your thing. We'll keep to ours. It's acceptable for you to say "I like my game because"

    But don't be going and saying "My game is fucking awesome, and yours is shit because yours is made by a greedy fuck" (paraphrased of course)

    It just doesn't sit well, and makes you look like a moron.

     

    Good day sir.

    MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321


    Originally posted by BrenelaelLook... All I was trying to say is the barrier to entry is a lot lower for SC than ED which it is.


    Yeah, whole 15 USD difference that substitutes for lousy ship and greed of "the other" dev...

    No one was arguing what are the entry fees NOW but you, because to anyone with just a bit of common sense is clear that it is silly and irrelevant.


    Originally posted by TyrokiYou've actually got it absolutely wrong.

    Too bad not a single line of your funny emotional outburst conflicts with anything I said.

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by goldtoof
    So is eve

    Lol, dear God Eve is NOT a space sim.  It's a SciFi MMO based in space.

     

    Elite Dangerous isn't really an MMO.  It is more of a single player game with multiplayer capabilities with some persistence mixed in.  You can't really be an MMO if you allow people to completely cut themselves off from the entire playerbase.  I think that's an important distinction that people miss or don't want to admit which somehow makes them think that because it isn't an MMO (in the traditional sense) it's less of a game.

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • OrthelianOrthelian Member UncommonPosts: 1,032

    Why's that?

    Based on other people who have said that, I assume that you say it because navigation is abstracted out to selecting a destination and a distance. But if you think that piloting interstellar spacecraft manually like a jet fighter, especially in combat, is more of a simulation than that, then I don't know what to say.

    Favorites: EQEVETOR | Playing: No MMOs since 2014. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CUPantheon
This discussion has been closed.