"We decided early on, before we had addressed any of these questions internally, that we wanted to try to avoid these things. And so that led us to, in this case, not being in agreement with the players."
"Unfortunately, when we started developing the game, we realized we wanted to create a situation where our players were never forced to make a decision that they would later regret based on knowledge that they didn't have at that stage in their careers.
This quote is regarding their overall philosophy for building the game, it has nothing at all to do directly with racial restrictions. That statement is setting their overall goal for the game. It took the player feedback for them to realize that this is exactly what racial restrictions was doing. You are completely misunderstanding the information here.
Enrif's post above pretty much nailed how this went down. You are putting words into the devs mouths. You are free to believe whatever you want but it is important that others know that it isn't actually what the devs said happened. YOu can choose to say that they are just lying but not everyone is willing to do that.
You clearly made up your mind before they ever said a thing here. You put words into their mouths in the start and assumed that the next 3 references to the subject were PR spin trying to cover for what the first guy said. They have mentioned this topic at least 3 other times in other videos which I'm assuming you are accusing them of lying about as well.
If you refuse to think that SOE knew early on what they wanted to do on this issue then fine, think that. If you prefer to be gullible and sniff the behinds of SOE marketing dept of then fine, I won't stop you.
But let me just say I accused no one of lying and put no words in anyone's mouth. I gave the most reasonable interpretation with strong direct evidence (quotes that were even highlighted). If you are unwilling to accept this then fine, so be it. But it still remains that you have it wrong, and the mere fact that you had to twist logic itself to understand your narrow view also supports this.
This should have been a no brainer. All the big companies are designing their games for profit which means casual playing and racial restriction is not casual style. WoW went the racial restriction route and we all know how that ended.... faction specific classes thrown out the window and for the most part so did their racial restriction classes.
IMO racial restrictions has nothing to do with casual/hardcore. In fact, the system that EQN seems to have in place points towards more a lot more play time invested, therefore more "hardcore". The amount of time it will take to get all 40 classes unlocked and vertically progressed I big I imagine, especially considering how much work you'll have to do going from a good standing to an evil one for certain classes.
The RT response claimed that they had a general idea about not restricting players in general. Did they not think about the class/race aspect? I'm sure they did but either way I think they made the right choice. An MMO's ongoing success is directly tied to how much content and replayability there is. Removing the restrictions adds this.
It simply takes less time to do things when everything has the same values (no racial bonus or penalties) and there are no special checks to make (racial resistances against poison, mental spells, what have you, or against certain races not being able to do certain classes).
In other words, SOE did this because they are simplifying the game down to the greatest extent possible, and that SOE is and has embraced lazy game design as a corporate strategy.
This decision, like many others, was made far, far ahead of time, and the PR round tables did nothing to change or affect any of that.
People here read into things way to much: SOE decided to take out all class restrictions / racial bonuses at an early stage because it is cheaper to do so (than have to pay people to make them "work correctly" even when that makes a better game).
Originally posted by furbans This should have been a no brainer. All the big companies are designing their games for profit which means casual playing and racial restriction is not casual style. WoW went the racial restriction route and we all know how that ended.... faction specific classes thrown out the window and for the most part so did their racial restriction classes.
I completely agree with the above.
I don't for a moment believe they were going to implement any race restrictions that would have ANY effect on game play. They simply cannot afford to. Any restrictions other than things like "only Ogre's can have green skin" are non-starters.
EQN is designed as a completely F2P title, so it has to appeal to the widest possible audience imaginable. You don't do that by building-in arbitrary race restrictions.
We're not talking about some 2-bit browser-based F2P that took 6 months to throw together. SOE have spent a fortune on this game, because it has been in development for years. The fact that much of that development time was wasted is not relevant, the costs still had to be paid, and EQN will be saddled with the burden of recovering that investment.
This game comes with a price tag probably twice the size of the cost of the version that we'll be playing. It simply HAS to make a lot of money, otherwise SOE are most likely going to be under severe pressure from the Sony board. There will be a very real danger that the development studio will be closed and that SOE will be turned into a pure publisher.
Indeed. You have no idea how they are working itemization or racial differentiation into the game. You just think SoE's bad so everything they do must have a negative truth to it. Letting preconceived notions show you what you want to see isn't going to do you any good.
From the information they have given there will be a lot to consider and plan around when gearing yourself out, the info is there if you really want to see it.
you had to twist logic itself to understand your narrow view also supports this
I did not twist any logic, I just read what they actual said and didn't assume they were making stuff up. If people want to believe that they are purposely deceiving the player base that is fine and out of my control, but what they actually said is that they changed their minds after the discussion.
Indeed. You have no idea how they are working itemization or racial differentiation into the game. You just think SoE's bad so everything they do must have a negative truth to it. Letting preconceived notions show you what you want to see isn't going to do you any good.
More like, the simplest reason is usually the correct one.
They are not putting in the racial restrictions, or bonuses or penalties or racial abilities because it is cheaper for them to not do so. Period. Player feelings had jack to do with it.
I don't even think they care that it makes the game more shallow or that plenty of other games had those before.
The people running the show simply want to do everything the cheapest way possible. (Smed has been shilling other peoples' games lately, tells you how desperate they are to make a buck, and that is not something SOE never did in the "old days".)
And it also aligns with the roundtables being nothing more than PR, which is also the simplest explanation for that aspect, too.
It is SOE: most of the decisions they make do not benefit the "player experience" and it has always been that way.
I don't see how removing the racial restrictions makes the game more shallow, I think it makes it deeper, if we're looking at those terms in the same way. I see a "deeper" game having more options and activities. If there are racial restrictions in a game like EQN, I have just limited my progression possibilities by how many classes I can now not achieve. Finding/earning them, gear progressing them and adding those classes abilities to my overall gameplay. There is no previous MMO template to compare this to. I do see the point you are trying to make, just in the case of EQN you are taking away more than you are adding by having racial restrictions.
As far as the root of your opinions for SoE you can see it in the response you just gave. Your opinions of them are your own of course but it seems to stretch beyond whatever conversation is going on into speculation at best.
In this case alone I think the player experience was the driving force of their ultimate decision. Those voting have not played EQN yet of fully understand the plans SoE has in place so they could not make a completely informed decision.
Originally posted by Metrobius Thats scary. Game development by forum mandate? Lol.
It's not. They're letting marginal things be discussed by the crowd so they can use it in their PR speak to say that the community helped make their game. The company picks the topics, not the crowd. They won't open up discussion on things they don't want discussed.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
The only real thing race restrictions lead to is stereotyped races and people forced into a race they might not want in order to play a class that appeals to them.
Players are free to do whta they want, you want to play a human mage, fine.
To however say that another player shouldn't be able to play an Orc mage because if doesn't "fit what I want in the lore" has an actual gameplay affect on taht other persons enjoyment of the game.
This isn't to say there can't be LOGICAL restrictions based on actual player choice/actions (IE a player who does evil deeds not being able to be a "paladin or vice versa) , those are good imo and as something that actually rewards how you play and leads to depth through player choices.
The idea of restricting classes based on race takes away the option from the player simply because of someone elses "opinion" on what races should be able to play what, some of which you might not agree with.
I for one am tired of being stuck as an elf mage, dwarf warrior, cliche races/class combinations
I don't mind there not being racial restrictions however, there should be some limitations so that it balances out with the lore and doesn't cheapen the races into only being cosmetics.
For example, if you want to be an ogre paladin, that's fine and dandy however, it doesn't fit the lore at all and you should have to find a way to train that particular path of life in such a way that you abandon the ogre ways of being evil brutes with no regard for light, love, and protecting the weak. Ogres usual mentality is only the strong survive.
so mmo development has basically become a football game ... whomever scores last wins?
make a core decision. stand by it. design the rest of the game around it and it will work. if you are concerned that racial restrictions will pigeon hole people .. design around it .. copping out on a core decision is the sign of bad design.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Comments
If you refuse to think that SOE knew early on what they wanted to do on this issue then fine, think that. If you prefer to be gullible and sniff the behinds of SOE marketing dept of then fine, I won't stop you.
But let me just say I accused no one of lying and put no words in anyone's mouth. I gave the most reasonable interpretation with strong direct evidence (quotes that were even highlighted). If you are unwilling to accept this then fine, so be it. But it still remains that you have it wrong, and the mere fact that you had to twist logic itself to understand your narrow view also supports this.
The RT response claimed that they had a general idea about not restricting players in general. Did they not think about the class/race aspect? I'm sure they did but either way I think they made the right choice. An MMO's ongoing success is directly tied to how much content and replayability there is. Removing the restrictions adds this.
It simply takes less time to do things when everything has the same values (no racial bonus or penalties) and there are no special checks to make (racial resistances against poison, mental spells, what have you, or against certain races not being able to do certain classes).
In other words, SOE did this because they are simplifying the game down to the greatest extent possible, and that SOE is and has embraced lazy game design as a corporate strategy.
This decision, like many others, was made far, far ahead of time, and the PR round tables did nothing to change or affect any of that.
People here read into things way to much: SOE decided to take out all class restrictions / racial bonuses at an early stage because it is cheaper to do so (than have to pay people to make them "work correctly" even when that makes a better game).
I completely agree with the above.
I don't for a moment believe they were going to implement any race restrictions that would have ANY effect on game play. They simply cannot afford to. Any restrictions other than things like "only Ogre's can have green skin" are non-starters.
EQN is designed as a completely F2P title, so it has to appeal to the widest possible audience imaginable. You don't do that by building-in arbitrary race restrictions.
We're not talking about some 2-bit browser-based F2P that took 6 months to throw together. SOE have spent a fortune on this game, because it has been in development for years. The fact that much of that development time was wasted is not relevant, the costs still had to be paid, and EQN will be saddled with the burden of recovering that investment.
This game comes with a price tag probably twice the size of the cost of the version that we'll be playing. It simply HAS to make a lot of money, otherwise SOE are most likely going to be under severe pressure from the Sony board. There will be a very real danger that the development studio will be closed and that SOE will be turned into a pure publisher.
"People here read into things way to much"
Indeed. You have no idea how they are working itemization or racial differentiation into the game. You just think SoE's bad so everything they do must have a negative truth to it. Letting preconceived notions show you what you want to see isn't going to do you any good.
From the information they have given there will be a lot to consider and plan around when gearing yourself out, the info is there if you really want to see it.
I did not twist any logic, I just read what they actual said and didn't assume they were making stuff up. If people want to believe that they are purposely deceiving the player base that is fine and out of my control, but what they actually said is that they changed their minds after the discussion.
More like, the simplest reason is usually the correct one.
They are not putting in the racial restrictions, or bonuses or penalties or racial abilities because it is cheaper for them to not do so. Period. Player feelings had jack to do with it.
I don't even think they care that it makes the game more shallow or that plenty of other games had those before.
The people running the show simply want to do everything the cheapest way possible. (Smed has been shilling other peoples' games lately, tells you how desperate they are to make a buck, and that is not something SOE never did in the "old days".)
And it also aligns with the roundtables being nothing more than PR, which is also the simplest explanation for that aspect, too.
It is SOE: most of the decisions they make do not benefit the "player experience" and it has always been that way.
I don't see how removing the racial restrictions makes the game more shallow, I think it makes it deeper, if we're looking at those terms in the same way. I see a "deeper" game having more options and activities. If there are racial restrictions in a game like EQN, I have just limited my progression possibilities by how many classes I can now not achieve. Finding/earning them, gear progressing them and adding those classes abilities to my overall gameplay. There is no previous MMO template to compare this to. I do see the point you are trying to make, just in the case of EQN you are taking away more than you are adding by having racial restrictions.
As far as the root of your opinions for SoE you can see it in the response you just gave. Your opinions of them are your own of course but it seems to stretch beyond whatever conversation is going on into speculation at best.
In this case alone I think the player experience was the driving force of their ultimate decision. Those voting have not played EQN yet of fully understand the plans SoE has in place so they could not make a completely informed decision.
It's not. They're letting marginal things be discussed by the crowd so they can use it in their PR speak to say that the community helped make their game. The company picks the topics, not the crowd. They won't open up discussion on things they don't want discussed.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
The only real thing race restrictions lead to is stereotyped races and people forced into a race they might not want in order to play a class that appeals to them.
Players are free to do whta they want, you want to play a human mage, fine.
To however say that another player shouldn't be able to play an Orc mage because if doesn't "fit what I want in the lore" has an actual gameplay affect on taht other persons enjoyment of the game.
This isn't to say there can't be LOGICAL restrictions based on actual player choice/actions (IE a player who does evil deeds not being able to be a "paladin or vice versa) , those are good imo and as something that actually rewards how you play and leads to depth through player choices.
The idea of restricting classes based on race takes away the option from the player simply because of someone elses "opinion" on what races should be able to play what, some of which you might not agree with.
I for one am tired of being stuck as an elf mage, dwarf warrior, cliche races/class combinations
I don't mind there not being racial restrictions however, there should be some limitations so that it balances out with the lore and doesn't cheapen the races into only being cosmetics.
For example, if you want to be an ogre paladin, that's fine and dandy however, it doesn't fit the lore at all and you should have to find a way to train that particular path of life in such a way that you abandon the ogre ways of being evil brutes with no regard for light, love, and protecting the weak. Ogres usual mentality is only the strong survive.
so mmo development has basically become a football game ... whomever scores last wins?
make a core decision. stand by it. design the rest of the game around it and it will work. if you are concerned that racial restrictions will pigeon hole people .. design around it .. copping out on a core decision is the sign of bad design.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Why should any developer listen to what the community asks for?
You're going to get thousands of different opinions...it's retarded to go down that road.
Even if the majority wants something, it's still a bad idea because you're excluding other parts of the community...
They should go with what ever they planned for in the first place. Don't listen to vocal community.