Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
@ people who defend this game against criticism
orcbum
Member Posts: 4
Shut up. You're not doing your beloved game any service by justifying its flaws with subjective anecdotes--criticism can only help a game by expanding its appeal for not only yourself, but to potential customers. Remember the naysayers during GW2 beta that commented on its less-than-seamless combat system, constant siege-like WPvP, and its PvE dooming to lack of longevity? Well those premonitions were never heeded and proved to be accurate to a general extent.
I'm not saying to not combat against fallacious arguments, but to counter a point with, and I quote:
- "Most of you MMO players just go through the content without even caring about it. You just click away and then go where the markers tell you to and kill what you're told to killed not having fun at all in the process, just trying to get a reward that will make you feel better for a brief time."
- "OP Do you feel you got your money's worth? If so enjoy the fact that you did, stop bashing a game you enjoyed, and go find something else."
is simultaneously hilarious and detrimental.
If you want this game to get better then stop working against critics. Derailing topics with slander and accusations towards the OP with petty labels like "MMO-hopper" or "privileged-spoiled gamers of today's generation" is hardly conducive, hardly logical, and hardly correct.
Comments
1. People are not only allowed they are encouraged to submit their opinions on these forums. So telling people to 'shut up' is not only immature, it is wrong.
2. Criticism is never productive. Constructive criticism is however, it has to be researched and presented in a logical manner, and include solutions to said problems.
You sound very hurt that someone disagreed with your opinions of FFXIV. Sorry about that, but the fact of the matter remains, people will defend what they like and people will attack what they do not like, more so on a game discussion board than anywhere else.
I see also that you are very new to this site. Welcome! I would encourage you to read the posting guide lines as your post has elements of trolling in it and that is no longer allowed on these forums.
People's opinions vary on what is good and what is not. If a certain game does not appeal to you, then coming here, to a neutral forum and trying to change peoples minds is not the wisest move you could make. The actual game forums, where the devs may hang out and take ideas from the community may be a better place for this. Obviously you are welcome to discuss anything you desire on this forum, but I would warn you, your opinions may not be well received.
Good luck.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
People need to stop defending blindly, continued success is the result of responding to constructive criticism, not ignoring it. However a lot of "haters" of mmos have some truly terrible arguments, and it can be a chore to sift through all the garbage to respond to valid points, you have to really want to be thorough.
By the way , you cant tell people to shut up and then try to deliver an idea that you would want them to adhere to. It's like punching a dog and telling it to bark differently. You think its gonna listen to you?
And making a new account to duck behind is pretty " Kiddish ". When you become an adult you will see people will be people and there isnt a way to herd the masses into your thinking.
Constructive being the point here. Telling people to 'shut up' is never going to work. He may have valid points, but that will soon be washed away in a flurry of posts that will ultimately get this thread locked.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Yes, i was too focused on the arguments, which are reasonable, and missed the shut up part. I see the logic, not the emotional parts of arguments, its a habit you can get into.
There's constructive criticism, criticism and bashing, the last one being the most used form of "criticism" on these forums. Obviously you care about this particular game for one reason or the other, since you got a total of 2 posts which both concern FFXIV
It's not like SE comes to these forums to watch for critique anyways, they got plenty on their own forums to make the necessary changes to please the audience. Some like it, some don't.
I've played it, done almost all there is to be done currently par coil, i enjoyed the journey, sure there were some quirks that took getting used to, but nothing that really would've sent me on the fences (cept maybe the amount of bots and gil spammers), now i'm no longer logging in even tho i have a sub running. That's just the way current era MMO's are, the market is too saturated and more coming down the pipeline all the time, there's no going back to the "golden ages" where an MMO was a true "home" you stayed in for months upon months, because there were only a handful to choose from.
pre-emptive ps. And no, i didn't rush anything, i was probably the 15-17th 50 on our FC, so i really took in the ride, not just click-spam and follow the map. Even got fishing and culinarian up to 50 with HQ AF on both.
No.
I can't see myself agreeing with you without any sort of examples to go with such claim.
Personally I don't see myself getting any valuable information from a hateful/fanboy post other than the fact the person in question feels the way they do about the subject. That's really not valuable to me.
this is what he was talking about.
I figure this thread will be deleted at some point...
One of the most immature and stupid things I've read on this forum in a long time (that's a high bar to pass).
If you look back at a lot of "defender" they are taking down fallacious and incorrect bashing.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
reread his post. he agrees with you here.
Yes, i was too focused on the arguments, which are reasonable, and missed the shut up part. I see the logic, not the emotional parts of arguments, its a habit you can get into.
Failing to address the 'emotional' parts of peoples arguments is going to lead no where. If, in this instance, OP wants to have a rational discussion on why people should stop defending their point of view on this game, he should first remove emotion from his post and then address the relevant facts.
Human nature more often than not is going to react to the emotion, or delivery more so than what is actually being said. My attempt at education was to try and let him see that. Your attempt at making yourself look/feel superior by pointing out your 'habit' has no bearing on the conversation. Most people are capable of just looking at the facts, and addressing that, they just choose not too. If people always removed emotion, these boards would be far more productive, and far more boring. I hope you do not think you were the only person capable of this 'habit'. It's a choice.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I know, the guy still posted one of the largest pieces of drivel I've ever seen. I somehow doubt he believes that anything is actually taking down fallacious arguments.
It's just utterly unnecessary,
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
He's got a good point, but he's going about it the wrong way. Honestly I don't think there is a good way to go about it. Final Fantasy fans are downright impossible to argue with. There are 4-5 people on this forum (and likely more on official forums and BG) who will defend every little thing about FFXIV and regard any criticism no matter how constructive as if it's some personal attack on them.
Fanboism hurts a game more than any troll can. When you constantly are feeding the message that a game is a perfect amalgamation of features and that the developers have done no wrong then it can be problematic if a developer assumes that's correct. There have been plenty of posts here that have very constructive feedback and they've been dismissed by the fanboys as "bashing" or "whining".
Just keep in mind if no criticism was given for the original FFXIV they likely would have never shut it down and started working on ARR which is a nice improvement from the original though I feel they have a LONG ways to go. What's would have been more likely to happen if the developer's listened only to the fanboys is that the developers would assume people just don't get their perfection and shut the game down this year or at the very least keeping it running on life support with no updates (which would have further caused an exodus of players), because the reality is the game was only being played by a select few of hardcore FF fans and it wasn't profitable.
There were also really bad systems in place in the original FFXIV that got changed due to constructive criticism too. The surplus system for example even though it was intended as a benefit for casuals never really benefited anyone and instead was a massive penalty to hardcore, semi-hardcore, and even borderline casuals.
You make a great point here. However, you make the same mistake so many others with good points make around here, which pretty much guarantees most people are going to:
1) Completely ignore or miss the bigger picture/main point of your post
2) Focus like a laser on the "mistake", making their entire response about that one bit.
In this case, it was putting "Shut up" in the post. You blew it right then and there. All you did there is gave those who would want to dismiss you anyway a much easier task. And really, since telling people to "shut up" is never a very tactful way to go about anything, they're actually rather justified in doing so - in this particular case.
If you read the forums here enough, you'll notice a pattern. No matter what the criticism is, no matter how eloquently it's presented, how well supported it is with backing facts/links/references, or even what suggestions are offered, it will be discredited and dismissed all the same. It's not about "how you did or didn't present the info". It's not about "what content you did or didn't cover". It doesn't matter. If you did "X, Y and Z", you'll be told "well, you didn't do A, B and C". If you come back and cover X, Y, Z, A, B and C, you'll be told "doesn't matter, you didn't cover D, E, and F". And if you come back and prove that you have actually hit all the (arbitrarily) "required" marks, someone will just turn around and say "Well, if you did all that then obviously you liked the game, so stop bashing it and go away".
These people don't want to discuss negative or critical opinions. They want to dismiss them, in any way they can, and the goal post never stops moving.
Incidentally, ever notice how the same criteria "required" by these people to criticize a game is never required of those who want to praise it? You'll be presented with an unending stream of requirements to be met if you want to voice a negative or critical opinion. But somehow, positive feedback - even if someone has just started playing the game - is never put under the same scrutiny. Interesting double-standard there.
But I digress...
The important thing to remember is this:
When these people are reading your post, they're not looking at the points you make or the thoughts you're sharing with the intent of having a discussion. They're scanning for anything they can use as ammunition, to discredit and silence you, so they don't have to address any opinions/thoughts you've shared. It's classic, text book ad hominem.
So, by putting "shut up" at the beginning of your post, you literally handed them all the ammunition they needed to dismiss/discredit you, and completely ignore your points. You've basically sabotaged your own post, and made their "job" easy.
Frankly this post makes you look incredibly biased to the other direction which is why I don't trust your ability to judge what posts or posters are "constructive" and who aren't.
Referring to my previous post...
Case and Point.
A post full of demonstrably valid information and well-stated points, and a fan comes along looking for some angle (an extremely weak one in this case) to dismiss the poster outright, while completely ignoring any specific points made.
Thank you for providing a perfect example of exactly what I was describing, Hyanmen.
lol , yes and no
the problem is, most criticism you see is from stupid bad people
so what they say doesnt matter
and one game cant appeal to every person, trade offs are made
I point out that you do not actually demonstrate any of the....points you made, quite justifiably so even because especially the colored part of your post outright demands an actual example to go with it. This is simply because as to what someone considers "constructive" can be and often is totally subjective.
Because it is in my honest opinion quite a big part of your argument and it had nothing concrete to back it up with, I dismissed it.
Then again, I did agree with the rest of your post regarding the original FFXIV and giving criticism in general. That said I had not much in particular to say about it either, so I didn't.
But yes, I see your point of view now. Every claim should be accepted even though nothing concrete is shown to prove it true, and if you don't, you're a fan who hates "constructive criticism".
I think that what we all need to remember here is that whether or not you like a game is highly subjective. Any criticism beyond fundamental implementation issues like bugs is basically just your opinion and others may not agree with it. So when someone "defends" a game when you are critical of its design...maybe they actually like its design and are not a "blind fanboi."
For example, the OP mentions how criticisms of GW2 such as WvW being constant sieges and the combat system not being seamless were "ignored." Well...did you ever consider that a lot of people that play GW2 actually like how WvW and the combat system work? You don't have a monopoly on opinions, and you really need to realize that just because you don't like a certain game concept does not mean that everyone else is going to feel the same.
On the same token, I really don't like the "hard trinity" that FFXIV has, but I know a lot of other people do and more power to them. I'm not going to tell them to "shut up" just because they don't agree with my opinion.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Perfectly said....some people like to come in with their all high and mighy attitude calling people fanbois when all they're doing is disagreeing. Just because they feel something needs to be criticized doesn't mean everyone else agrees with the said criticism. Whatever you're criticizing might be something that someone actually enjoys.