Originally posted by Hellidol There are to many big money company involved in MMO's so you wont see any mmo worth playing tbh. If they feel the risk is there they wont invest and wont get supported, what you will see is kick starter games popping up all over and some of them are going to do great things (star citizen, Camelot). Until the MMO community heals you just wont see quality games, you will see the games that apply to those with a I.Q. of a Neanderthal.
I agree with you to a point. It really isnt as easy as pointing the finger at those evil large companies. The real problem is us.
We have been voting with our wallets. Every time someone publishes a mmo off the standard part we keep on voting it away. We can debate how good or well they tried but at the end of the day it does come down to numbers, the game has to get enough income to be self sustaining with a little extra so they have room to invest in new content and expantions. Not only that we do seem to be far more tollerant with these boring clones when it comes to bugs and flaws then with new/different designs.
Kickstarters do have the potentional to help bring mmos to their former glory, but for them too, it does come down to numbers when too many fall on their face they will eventually go down the very same road we are on right now, going for the more standard working formula.
So again ultimately the problem is us.
By that logic the next crappy mmo I see I and everyone else. should just hand em my bank account info since we all know that will make it all beter.
no, you want to compete in a market fine, but free enterprise = the freedom to fail. if that's too scary to devs/pubs/indies /shrug go make phone apps
We have been voting with our wallets. Every time someone publishes a mmo off the standard part we keep on voting it away.
did I read this wrong? did you not say that by not paying for an mmo we find sub-standard it's our fault it fails? And what is the "standard" anyway?
Oh I see you want me to give capital to an unfinished/potential product like an investor but not get recompensed as such, k gotcha
Sounds like Amway
the more successfull model seems the to the WoW model.
Now what you are saying is we should give our money to a promise, a unfinished product and pray for the best.
Like I said you are only trying to twist my words, heck to pick one of the kickstarters YOU brought up, Camelot. People where already trowing their money at it when it was nothing more then just a promise.
Then again getting the investment to actually MAKE the game isnt the biggest problem. In order for "us" to get our money's worth out of it the game has to last, which means it will have to generate income, otherwise it will end up shutting down regardless.
KIckstarters development is no different then the large companies, their development will go as far as investers let it, they can only pass down the plate for more money so many times, at some points investers will stop giving more money and the game will end up being released as is and fixed along the way. The creators want to earn the money they invested back too, they also want to actually make some money from it too and they need to make additional money in order to produce content and expantions.
Etiher way, wether its through kickstarter or large companies its OUR money. Kickstarter talks it out of your pockets and large companies earned it from their previous products. The future after its release depence entirely on our money.
So while its true Kickstarter DO have the potentional to revive the genre, but it will remain to be seen if it will. Especially since.. if too much vaporware comes out of kickstarters.. we stop investing in them.
Originally posted by Hellidol There are to many big money company involved in MMO's so you wont see any mmo worth playing tbh. If they feel the risk is there they wont invest and wont get supported, what you will see is kick starter games popping up all over and some of them are going to do great things (star citizen, Camelot). Until the MMO community heals you just wont see quality games, you will see the games that apply to those with a I.Q. of a Neanderthal.
I agree with you to a point. It really isnt as easy as pointing the finger at those evil large companies. The real problem is us.
We have been voting with our wallets. Every time someone publishes a mmo off the standard part we keep on voting it away. We can debate how good or well they tried but at the end of the day it does come down to numbers, the game has to get enough income to be self sustaining with a little extra so they have room to invest in new content and expantions. Not only that we do seem to be far more tollerant with these boring clones when it comes to bugs and flaws then with new/different designs.
Kickstarters do have the potentional to help bring mmos to their former glory, but for them too, it does come down to numbers when too many fall on their face they will eventually go down the very same road we are on right now, going for the more standard working formula.
So again ultimately the problem is us.
By that logic the next crappy mmo I see I and everyone else. should just hand em my bank account info since we all know that will make it all beter.
no, you want to compete in a market fine, but free enterprise = the freedom to fail. if that's too scary to devs/pubs/indies /shrug go make phone apps
We have been voting with our wallets. Every time someone publishes a mmo off the standard path we keep on voting it away.
did I read this wrong? did you not say that by not paying for an mmo we find sub-standard it's our fault it fails? And what is the "standard" anyway?
[mod edit]
Like it or not for whatever reason the consumer disliked your product. that is not the consumers fault, you simply targeted the wrong consumer
Still doesn't tell me why I sould invest in a vapor ware product site unseen because its "THE NEXT BIG THING"
The best time i had in any mmorpg was in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, when players helped each other and did group quests together,crafted together,cared for each other. It was great times.
GW1 was really really good until they introduced Heroes, which would let you solo the whole game and no one ever grouped. Henchmen were there to fill up but were to weak imo. They should have limited to how many heroes that can accompany you and it would have been a lot better. So, GW1 was one of the best games, teamplay mattered and socialize interaction was at its best, especially when you did tougher content.
GW2 however didn't live up to GW1, it did invent new features etc that are very good but it's missing some of that GW1 which made Guild Wars, Guild Wars. I miss the fun of creating your own build out of hundred of skills etc and taking on a really tough encounter or dungeon.
And to be perfectly honest if they can't even put together a rational enough business and design plan good enough to qualify for a start-up loan or real investment, what makes them any different than big pub developers who think they can jump in with no plan and a lot of $?
like I said it's a market if you want my $ as a customer -you fit my needs
you want my $ as investment _ I want a return on investment
I think part of the problem is that most mmos seem to make you "the" hero, you are the big bad adventure of your vaction.. but after you played through the basic story.. it just stops.
In older mmo's like Everquest and (not discussing all its flaws and downfalls) anarchy online, you where just some random shmuck, who forfilled a random quest or contract for the faction of their choise, you wherent a figther of X, you just "lived"in their teratorion. Which imo led to you making yourself the hero of your own story.
I truely feel that thats what is missing in mmo's right now, they make you feel the hero of THEIR story, but in reality you arent, which leads to a void and shallow feeling in the end.
I agree with this,personal story is so cheesy and cut scenes involving your own character interacting with anything is just bad.For me worlds should be big and none linear,so you can walk into mobs that will just one shot you.There still should be quests but no ! or similar things.
For me EQ2 did it the best for the first 3-4 years,after Kingdom of Sky/Echoes of Faydwer 70 level cap was the slow but inevitable dumb down of the game,kind of like having necro disease dot on you lol.The combat was the best in an mmorpg I ever played,none of this global cool down bullshit,every single ability has its own timer.
Most importantly though,you had to group to achieve anything worthwhile,even at level 5 there were quests that were real hard (but not impossible depending on class)solo. So for those saying rose tinted glasses or why aren't you playing this game or that if they are so great?,there is your answer,when you had to be social to achieve things it was fun and rewarding but now its all dumbed down and solo in once great games.
And to be perfectly honest if they can't even put together a rational enough business and design plan good enough to qualify for a start-up loan or real investment, what makes them any different than big pub developers who think they can jump in with no plan and a lot of $?
like I said it's a market if you want my $ as a customer -you fit my needs
you want my $ as investment _ I want a return on investment
Thank you for confirming ultimately it IS US that makes or breaks the mmo.
First off an big developer will have a plan, they wont trow down muliti millions of dollars and see how it goes, they actually do understand economics 101.
You are absolutely right, iof they want our money as customer they do need to fill our needs.
And with your final statement you say axactly what I was saying, kickstarters MAY deliver, if they will remains to be seen. But there is zero garantee that they will. And if too many Kickstarters DONT deliver we end up stopping to invest into them eventually.
And to be perfectly honest if they can't even put together a rational enough business and design plan good enough to qualify for a start-up loan or real investment, what makes them any different than big pub developers who think they can jump in with no plan and a lot of $?
like I said it's a market if you want my $ as a customer -you fit my needs
you want my $ as investment _ I want a return on investment
Thank you for confirming ultimately it IS US that makes or breaks the mmo.
First off an big developer will have a plan, they wont trow down muliti millions of dollars and see how it goes, they actually do understand economics 101.
You are absolutely right, iof they want our money as customer they do need to fill our needs.
And with your final statement you say axactly what I was saying, kickstarters MAY deliver, if they will remains to be seen. But there is zero garantee that they will. And if too many Kickstarters DONT deliver we end up stopping to invest into them eventually.
Aka econics 101
lol wanna bet the biggest MMO Opsie yet SWTOR many of the departing said just that. they bounced around idea to idea kinda did this kinda did that. One of the War hammer videos said pretty much the same thing
Thank you for confirming ultimately it IS US that makes or breaks the mmo.
negative, piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. mmos fail from bad planning bad targeting nothing more nothing less
The games aren't at fault, the player base is at fault here. The player base as a whole just doesn't want the same things you want (or I want for that matter). They want a game on rails with little to no competition for anything (which is what makes a community). They want games that are really easy and give you rewards constantly. It doesn't make a very good MMO but they are just doing what the fanbase is asking for.
This generation of gamers is completely different than us old dudes and the games are being made for them, not us. You are going to have to look at indie developers to find the game you want to play and it is going to be a niche game and not a mainstream one. Kind of like how D3 was aimed at console players but PoE is aimed at old school aRPG players. You need to find the PoE of MMOs.
The games aren't at fault, the player base is at fault here. The player base as a whole just doesn't want the same things you want (or I want for that matter). They want a game on rails with little to no competition for anything (which is what makes a community). They want games that are really easy and give you rewards constantly. It doesn't make a very good MMO but they are just doing what the fanbase is asking for.
This generation of gamers is completely different than us old dudes and the games are being made for them, not us. You are going to have to look at indie developers to find the game you want to play and it is going to be a niche game and not a mainstream one. Kind of like how D3 was aimed at console players but PoE is aimed at old school aRPG players. You need to find the PoE of MMOs.
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
Well OP I haf to agree with you. As a result my RL personal life is *thriving.* But, alas, the best things in life are GD expensive; so my bank account suffers. I do long for the days of marathon EQ sessions when; at the end of the year; the bank account grows quite large.
Enjoy RL for a bit and lets hope a good game comes along some time. In the meantime you can continue to complain about it (like I do) on the forums :P
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
But that is exactly how markets work. The player base has asked for MMO's to move in a direction I don't like. You can't blame the game designers, they are just making the game that the majority of people are asking for. If the market wants a game on rails that is easy with tons of easy to obtain rewards that is the game the companies are going to make. The reason the games are like this is the consumer though. The important difference is that this isn't going to change, it isn't like the game companies will suddenly wake up and make games like they used to. They are just adapting to what people want.
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
But that is exactly how markets work. The player base has asked for MMO's to move in a direction I don't like. You can't blame the game designers, they are just making the game that the majority of people are asking for. If the market wants a game on rails that is easy with tons of easy to obtain rewards that is the game the companies are going to make. The reason the games are like this is the consumer though. The important difference is that this isn't going to change, it isn't like the game companies will suddenly wake up and make games like they used to. They are just adapting to what people want.
Actually that's incorrect. mmo creators are not reacting to market conditions, they are reacting to what they THINK are market conditions. This site alone represents a fairly significant untapped market share. Skyrim, GTV ect didn't get those box sales because "well conventional wisdom says we need to kinda sorta do this but market "everyone" No they actively Identified the specific sub market they wanted to exploit, marketed that specific demographic, developed the plan, feature sets, and systems that matched the demographic they were marketing, and were unafraid to encourage untargeted demographics to look elsewhere. As well they didn't design a game or select a demographic from what they wanted to do, they made sure both were in the realm of what they could do.
Hostess did business much the same way mmo's do with predictable results
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
But that is exactly how markets work. The player base has asked for MMO's to move in a direction I don't like. You can't blame the game designers, they are just making the game that the majority of people are asking for. If the market wants a game on rails that is easy with tons of easy to obtain rewards that is the game the companies are going to make. The reason the games are like this is the consumer though. The important difference is that this isn't going to change, it isn't like the game companies will suddenly wake up and make games like they used to. They are just adapting to what people want.
Actually that's incorrect. mmo creators are not reacting to market conditions, they are reacting to what they THINK are market conditions. This site alone represents a fairly significant untapped market share. Skyrim, GTV ect didn't get those box sales because "well conventional wisdom says we need to kinda sorta do this but market "everyone" No they actively Identified the specific sub market they wanted to exploit, marketed that specific demographic, developed the plan, feature sets, and systems that matched the demographic they were marketing, and were unafraid to discourage untargeted demographics to look elsewhere. As well they didn't design a game or select a demographic from what they wanted to do, they made sure both were in the realm of what they could do.
Hostess did business much the same way mmo's do with predictable results
Which is why I'm definitely giving Crowd Sourcing a shot.
Last thing I want is Shrinks and Market Analysts involved in my game design
Which is why I'm definitely giving Crowd Sourcing a shot.
Last thing I want is Shrinks and Market Analysts involved in my game design
good luck to them I wish them all the best, but for most I've seen it's still design without a plan to a viable endpoint. Dreamers are a great thing. A rational and practical way to meet parts of that dream are even better
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
But that is exactly how markets work. The player base has asked for MMO's to move in a direction I don't like. You can't blame the game designers, they are just making the game that the majority of people are asking for. If the market wants a game on rails that is easy with tons of easy to obtain rewards that is the game the companies are going to make. The reason the games are like this is the consumer though. The important difference is that this isn't going to change, it isn't like the game companies will suddenly wake up and make games like they used to. They are just adapting to what people want.
Actually that's incorrect. mmo creators are not reacting to market conditions, they are reacting to what they THINK are market conditions. This site alone represents a fairly significant untapped market share. Skyrim, GTV ect didn't get those box sales because "well conventional wisdom says we need to kinda sorta do this but market "everyone" No they actively Identified the specific sub market they wanted to exploit, marketed that specific demographic, developed the plan, feature sets, and systems that matched the demographic they were marketing, and were unafraid to encourage untargeted demographics to look elsewhere. As well they didn't design a game or select a demographic from what they wanted to do, they made sure both were in the realm of what they could do.
Agreed. What is very interesting to me anyway is the idea that in technology and gaming players don't actually know what they want. They just know what they like - AFTER they play it. Malcolm Gladwell was talking about this the other day (in a round about way).
Its a kind of false attribution that many people make.. The example that Gladwell gives is a tennis player. You can find pro tennis players out there who have tremendous skills. But if you interview them - many of them don't actually know how they do what they do on the court. They give incorrect explanations for their strokes..
It's even worse with video games. What's going on is because MMOs are so expensive the developers want to 'get it right'. So they do 'market research' as to what people want in a game. Then they give them that game. But it turns out people don't want THAT. GW2 and World of Warcraft are just textbook example of this phenomenon, IMHO.
Almost all the changes and design comes out of player requests. How bout having no gear grind (GW2) - how bout no Holy Trinity - How bout every does DPS? etc etc. Same thing with WoW.. how bout dual specs, flying mounts, porting to dungeons. group finders, raid finders etc etc.
Then these poor designers implement these focus group driven features - a few people claim to love them - but they end up with less people playing then they imagined. Blizzard cited the 'revamp' of the entire 1-60 content as drive by player designers. Players claimed they were leaving because it was to hard at the start. I say that all you know is that players are leaving - you can't take their reason 'why' at face value. I know that sounds crazy - but it seems to be true. Players figure out how they feel - and then come up with reasons to 'support' that.. Sometimes those reasons just aren't correct.
This is why - it seems to me time after time the very best games in the industry are NOT focus group driven. The developers just made a game they thought would be cool. It doesn't matter if its a casual game "Angry Birds" or an MMO - EvE. When they make the games they want to make - good things happen..
This site alone represents a fairly significant untapped market share.
This is definitely true for most game genres but it is a lot different with MMORPG's. Most genres you don't need a huge investment to make a game that targets a more niche market. Path of Exile is a nice little game that specifically targets older D2 fans instead of the current market. It was made on a smaller budget and funded largely by donations. It has tons of little flaws largely centered around disconnects, poor mob AI etc that come from not having AAA development. The problem is that a MMO that is funded this way in general is just unplayable.
Even with a bigger budget a lot of these games are just awful. WAR was dead before it ever came out, it was just a clunky pile of junk, they couldn't get the combat to run smoothly. SWTOR was doomed before release, I could tell you it was going FTP within 2 years. Darkfall is one of the more famous but the execution was so bad it couldn't even fill the niche it wanted. I won't even mention Vanguard which was so bad it ate peoples PCs. The budget required to pull these games off just make them very hard to aim at a smaller portion of the market. As the genre matures it will probably become easier and easier but that is still a number of years away.
The concept behind the games might have been solid but actually producing these games is harder than any other genre. On top of all of that the market is pushing towards no subscriptions which makes your margin for profits even smaller, it is getting harder to compete, not easier.
Why do you feel the need to garner support before (or after) you move on?
Don't let the door hit you etc.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"In conclusion....my time playing MMO's has past, its time to give up on them completely and move on , simply not worth my time anymore. But for those that still enjoy grinding and getting new gear for the tenth mmo game straight...then enjoy."
But its worth your time to write about not liking them? No offense you sound like an addict trying to quit. MMOs are no more repetitve then any other video game genre - and no worse a waste of time then watching TV IMHO. But good luck with the whole self hate thing.
Decided to make this post as I am a long time gamer since Ultima Online and Asherons call, I have played pretty much every MMO since then very few of which I stuck with for more than 1-2 months, the few I did were Darkfall, Istaria and SWG.
,,,
In conclusion....my time playing MMO's has past, its time to give up on them completely and move on , simply not worth my time anymore. But for those that still enjoy grinding and getting new gear for the tenth mmo game straight...then enjoy.
If you really thing all is about "grinding" and "getting new" gear .. then you have missed whole "mmo life".
Comments
did I read this wrong? did you not say that by not paying for an mmo we find sub-standard it's our fault it fails? And what is the "standard" anyway?
Oh I see you want me to give capital to an unfinished/potential product like an investor but not get recompensed as such, k gotcha
Sounds like Amway
the more successfull model seems the to the WoW model.
Now what you are saying is we should give our money to a promise, a unfinished product and pray for the best.
Like I said you are only trying to twist my words, heck to pick one of the kickstarters YOU brought up, Camelot. People where already trowing their money at it when it was nothing more then just a promise.
Then again getting the investment to actually MAKE the game isnt the biggest problem. In order for "us" to get our money's worth out of it the game has to last, which means it will have to generate income, otherwise it will end up shutting down regardless.
KIckstarters development is no different then the large companies, their development will go as far as investers let it, they can only pass down the plate for more money so many times, at some points investers will stop giving more money and the game will end up being released as is and fixed along the way. The creators want to earn the money they invested back too, they also want to actually make some money from it too and they need to make additional money in order to produce content and expantions.
Etiher way, wether its through kickstarter or large companies its OUR money. Kickstarter talks it out of your pockets and large companies earned it from their previous products. The future after its release depence entirely on our money.
So while its true Kickstarter DO have the potentional to revive the genre, but it will remain to be seen if it will. Especially since.. if too much vaporware comes out of kickstarters.. we stop investing in them.
Like it or not for whatever reason the consumer disliked your product. that is not the consumers fault, you simply targeted the wrong consumer
Still doesn't tell me why I sould invest in a vapor ware product site unseen because its "THE NEXT BIG THING"
The best time i had in any mmorpg was in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, when players helped each other and did group quests together,crafted together,cared for each other. It was great times.
GW1 was really really good until they introduced Heroes, which would let you solo the whole game and no one ever grouped. Henchmen were there to fill up but were to weak imo. They should have limited to how many heroes that can accompany you and it would have been a lot better. So, GW1 was one of the best games, teamplay mattered and socialize interaction was at its best, especially when you did tougher content.
GW2 however didn't live up to GW1, it did invent new features etc that are very good but it's missing some of that GW1 which made Guild Wars, Guild Wars. I miss the fun of creating your own build out of hundred of skills etc and taking on a really tough encounter or dungeon.
And to be perfectly honest if they can't even put together a rational enough business and design plan good enough to qualify for a start-up loan or real investment, what makes them any different than big pub developers who think they can jump in with no plan and a lot of $?
like I said it's a market if you want my $ as a customer -you fit my needs
you want my $ as investment _ I want a return on investment
I agree with this,personal story is so cheesy and cut scenes involving your own character interacting with anything is just bad.For me worlds should be big and none linear,so you can walk into mobs that will just one shot you.There still should be quests but no ! or similar things.
For me EQ2 did it the best for the first 3-4 years,after Kingdom of Sky/Echoes of Faydwer 70 level cap was the slow but inevitable dumb down of the game,kind of like having necro disease dot on you lol.The combat was the best in an mmorpg I ever played,none of this global cool down bullshit,every single ability has its own timer.
Most importantly though,you had to group to achieve anything worthwhile,even at level 5 there were quests that were real hard (but not impossible depending on class)solo. So for those saying rose tinted glasses or why aren't you playing this game or that if they are so great?,there is your answer,when you had to be social to achieve things it was fun and rewarding but now its all dumbed down and solo in once great games.
Thank you for confirming ultimately it IS US that makes or breaks the mmo.
First off an big developer will have a plan, they wont trow down muliti millions of dollars and see how it goes, they actually do understand economics 101.
You are absolutely right, iof they want our money as customer they do need to fill our needs.
And with your final statement you say axactly what I was saying, kickstarters MAY deliver, if they will remains to be seen. But there is zero garantee that they will. And if too many Kickstarters DONT deliver we end up stopping to invest into them eventually.
Aka econics 101
lol wanna bet the biggest MMO Opsie yet SWTOR many of the departing said just that. they bounced around idea to idea kinda did this kinda did that. One of the War hammer videos said pretty much the same thing
negative, piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. mmos fail from bad planning bad targeting nothing more nothing less
The games aren't at fault, the player base is at fault here. The player base as a whole just doesn't want the same things you want (or I want for that matter). They want a game on rails with little to no competition for anything (which is what makes a community). They want games that are really easy and give you rewards constantly. It doesn't make a very good MMO but they are just doing what the fanbase is asking for.
This generation of gamers is completely different than us old dudes and the games are being made for them, not us. You are going to have to look at indie developers to find the game you want to play and it is going to be a niche game and not a mainstream one. Kind of like how D3 was aimed at console players but PoE is aimed at old school aRPG players. You need to find the PoE of MMOs.
The RPG of MMOs died a long time ago. Todays games are still fun just not meant to stay around more than the main story line.
Not saying it is bad though just saying..
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, I dislike the current cop of mmo's as much as anyone. However blaming the consumer for purchasing a product they like or not purchasing a product they dislike is rather comical.
Well OP I haf to agree with you. As a result my RL personal life is *thriving.* But, alas, the best things in life are GD expensive; so my bank account suffers. I do long for the days of marathon EQ sessions when; at the end of the year; the bank account grows quite large.
Enjoy RL for a bit and lets hope a good game comes along some time. In the meantime you can continue to complain about it (like I do) on the forums :P
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
But that is exactly how markets work. The player base has asked for MMO's to move in a direction I don't like. You can't blame the game designers, they are just making the game that the majority of people are asking for. If the market wants a game on rails that is easy with tons of easy to obtain rewards that is the game the companies are going to make. The reason the games are like this is the consumer though. The important difference is that this isn't going to change, it isn't like the game companies will suddenly wake up and make games like they used to. They are just adapting to what people want.
Actually that's incorrect. mmo creators are not reacting to market conditions, they are reacting to what they THINK are market conditions. This site alone represents a fairly significant untapped market share. Skyrim, GTV ect didn't get those box sales because "well conventional wisdom says we need to kinda sorta do this but market "everyone" No they actively Identified the specific sub market they wanted to exploit, marketed that specific demographic, developed the plan, feature sets, and systems that matched the demographic they were marketing, and were unafraid to encourage untargeted demographics to look elsewhere. As well they didn't design a game or select a demographic from what they wanted to do, they made sure both were in the realm of what they could do.
Hostess did business much the same way mmo's do with predictable results
Which is why I'm definitely giving Crowd Sourcing a shot.
Last thing I want is Shrinks and Market Analysts involved in my game design
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
good luck to them I wish them all the best, but for most I've seen it's still design without a plan to a viable endpoint. Dreamers are a great thing. A rational and practical way to meet parts of that dream are even better
Agreed. What is very interesting to me anyway is the idea that in technology and gaming players don't actually know what they want. They just know what they like - AFTER they play it. Malcolm Gladwell was talking about this the other day (in a round about way).
Its a kind of false attribution that many people make.. The example that Gladwell gives is a tennis player. You can find pro tennis players out there who have tremendous skills. But if you interview them - many of them don't actually know how they do what they do on the court. They give incorrect explanations for their strokes..
It's even worse with video games. What's going on is because MMOs are so expensive the developers want to 'get it right'. So they do 'market research' as to what people want in a game. Then they give them that game. But it turns out people don't want THAT. GW2 and World of Warcraft are just textbook example of this phenomenon, IMHO.
Almost all the changes and design comes out of player requests. How bout having no gear grind (GW2) - how bout no Holy Trinity - How bout every does DPS? etc etc. Same thing with WoW.. how bout dual specs, flying mounts, porting to dungeons. group finders, raid finders etc etc.
Then these poor designers implement these focus group driven features - a few people claim to love them - but they end up with less people playing then they imagined. Blizzard cited the 'revamp' of the entire 1-60 content as drive by player designers. Players claimed they were leaving because it was to hard at the start. I say that all you know is that players are leaving - you can't take their reason 'why' at face value. I know that sounds crazy - but it seems to be true. Players figure out how they feel - and then come up with reasons to 'support' that.. Sometimes those reasons just aren't correct.
This is why - it seems to me time after time the very best games in the industry are NOT focus group driven. The developers just made a game they thought would be cool. It doesn't matter if its a casual game "Angry Birds" or an MMO - EvE. When they make the games they want to make - good things happen..
This is definitely true for most game genres but it is a lot different with MMORPG's. Most genres you don't need a huge investment to make a game that targets a more niche market. Path of Exile is a nice little game that specifically targets older D2 fans instead of the current market. It was made on a smaller budget and funded largely by donations. It has tons of little flaws largely centered around disconnects, poor mob AI etc that come from not having AAA development. The problem is that a MMO that is funded this way in general is just unplayable.
Even with a bigger budget a lot of these games are just awful. WAR was dead before it ever came out, it was just a clunky pile of junk, they couldn't get the combat to run smoothly. SWTOR was doomed before release, I could tell you it was going FTP within 2 years. Darkfall is one of the more famous but the execution was so bad it couldn't even fill the niche it wanted. I won't even mention Vanguard which was so bad it ate peoples PCs. The budget required to pull these games off just make them very hard to aim at a smaller portion of the market. As the genre matures it will probably become easier and easier but that is still a number of years away.
The concept behind the games might have been solid but actually producing these games is harder than any other genre. On top of all of that the market is pushing towards no subscriptions which makes your margin for profits even smaller, it is getting harder to compete, not easier.
If we accept your premise on faith:
Why do you feel the need to garner support before (or after) you move on?
Don't let the door hit you etc.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"In conclusion....my time playing MMO's has past, its time to give up on them completely and move on
, simply not worth my time anymore. But for those that still enjoy grinding and getting new gear for the tenth mmo game straight...then enjoy."
But its worth your time to write about not liking them? No offense you sound like an addict trying to quit. MMOs are no more repetitve then any other video game genre - and no worse a waste of time then watching TV IMHO. But good luck with the whole self hate thing.
I'm 40 years old and I totally agree with the OP.
However, it's not games that are the problem - the 'problem' is that you 'grow up'.
To begin with, a game like WoW is amazing fun, but after many years you want more than short-term fun - you want real life fulfillment.
It takes time to build up a family and a career.
If you really thing all is about "grinding" and "getting new" gear .. then you have missed whole "mmo life".