Clever way to mask something you've already decided upon in a poll:
a) No, ABSOLUTELY NOT!
b) Maybe, but only if it is done the way I like it.
c) Maybe, but only if it fits the lore and the rest of the game.
d) Yes.
Anyone who answers b, c or d is considered as a "yes" regardless of how it's implemented.
I guess it's just gallup 101. Make a gallup that cannot show any other result than what you want it to show.
I answered a), but doesn't really matter if they do it or not. Every "fantasy" game seems to incorporate some degree of technology today, be it clockwork, "magitech" or steampunk.
Was not intending to create a poll that showed what I wanted to see or repeat what the poll was in the round table. I figured people already decided how they felt after watching the decision and don't need repeat questions.
I'm not completely against having some aspects of guns and ninjas in the game. The problem is I don't trust SOE to do it right, because they have already shown that their perception of taste is not really good. So I think it would be better to not have those things at all, to lead them not into temptation to go completely overboard with it.
I'm ok with having some technological elements in EQN as long as it is subtle. It should be some half magical Leonardo da Vinci stuff that crazy scientists do, not robots and steam engines everywhere.
I also think that modern concepts would not work in every fantasy setting. The world has to have a overall late medieval/renascence feel. In a very mystical setting like The Lord of the Rings guns would look out of place no matter what.
It would be ok if guns where very primitive and uncommon and their use was limited to special classes. And they should have the long reloading times that early firearms had.
GW2 handles it exactly the wrong way. GW2 basically has modern semi-automatic pistols and rifles everywhere that go bangbangbangbangbang and some of them even look very modern.
A ninja is just a type of assassin. Of course EQN should have some sort of sneaky class that can where a black face mask, but if they put a class called "Ninja" in there or one that is 100% like a ninja, that would be just lame.
There was about a three week period of time where this was the greatest game....now, not so much. Gets worse with every new piece of information that is released.
They are sitting around a round table, patting themselves on the back for introducing such great concepts as their parkour movement system. Imagine how ridiculous it will look with 20 people all flipping, bouncing and twisting in the air. Like ping pong balls in a lotto cage.
That is true. I really hope EQN won't go the same way as Spore. Spore also was very much hyped and it featured interesting new concepts and great innovative technologies, like the creature creator. But in the end was a total failure because the gameplay war generic and unimaginative. Spore started out so great and then they completely ruined it. They even decided to make the art style look cute and cartoony. It somehow looks like they stopped development half was through and then gave it to Zynga to finish it.
Even if they are cartoon tigers with 100# of armor, overly huge shoulder pads and a 7 foot sword? No immersion issues?
... .. . ... .. . Als... We... That is the thing that does it for you..? Bending the laws of nature... No prob... Speaking 160 cm tall bipedal frogs... easy as pie... a pair of chainmail nipplewarmers giving full protection.. Ofcourse...
But heaven forbid that someone jumps around a bit in full plate. =P
I guess we all have out limits i guess.
There is something called suspension of disbelief. I can make my self believe there are frog people in Norrath, but if basic laws of physics don't apply we are entering Loony Tunes territory.
You probably remember the Legolas vs. Oliphaunt scene from the third Lord of the Rings movie. Do you remember why so many people complained about it? Because it is just stupid and completely breaks the mood of the film.
No to ninjas (or what ever you want to package it as)
They should try to stick with the lore of the original game. Ok, so there is clock work technology in the game. So therefore we should have clock work guns. What about clockwork cars? Clock work helicopters? These guys use ridiculous logic to justify adding something that clearly should not be added in there. Why don't they just come out and say this is just a trend that is happening in today's games and they wanna ride it? Plain and simple.
So, this game isn't close to coming out and they are trying to make this a wow-clone. Sugar coat it as much as you want, but game devs do this type of crap. Look at how Diablo 3 sold out its original fan-base to make D3 cartoony like WoW. This game sees how guns and ninja type characters are incorporated into many MMO's nowadays and they want to do it as well because its popular or so they think. Yes, bright colors, guns, any other MMO cliche cookie cutter stuff you wanna add?
*I respect guns in the Warhammer universe because they are an essential part of Warhammer Fantasy battles (i.e. cannons, etc)
**Yes while some items exist in lore, it doesn't mean to incorporate it as a major part of the game. So DnD has old style guns in one book. They were NOT MAJOR parts in ANY Dragonlance books or Forgotten Realms books. I mean we know the Far East exists sort of in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't mean Samurais and Ninjas are walking around in Forgotten Realms novels all the time. I've read tons of those books and I think I remember reading about 1 monk character in a minor role.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
No to ninjas (or what ever you want to package it as)
They should try to stick with the lore of the original game. Ok, so there is clock work technology in the game. So therefore we should have clock work guns. What about clockwork cars? Clock work helicopters? These guys use ridiculous logic to justify adding something that clearly should not be added in there. Why don't they just come out and say this is just a trend that is happening in today's games and they wanna ride it? Plain and simple.
So, this game isn't close to coming out and they are trying to make this a wow-clone. Sugar coat it as much as you want, but game devs do this type of crap. Look at how Diablo 3 sold out its original fan-base to make D3 cartoony like WoW. This game sees how guns and ninja type characters are incorporated into many MMO's nowadays and they want to do it as well because its popular or so they think. Yes, bright colors, guns,
*I respect guns in the Warhammer universe because they are an essential part of Warhammer Fantasy battles (i.e. cannons, etc)
**Yes while some items exist in lore, it doesn't mean to incorporate it as a major part of the game. So DnD has old style guns in one book. They were NOT MAJOR parts in ANY Dragonlance books or Forgotten Realms books. I mean we know the Far East exists sort of in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't mean Samurais and Ninjas are walking around in Forgotten Realms novels all the time. I've read tons of those books and I think I remember reading about 1 monk character in a minor role.
We do have clockwork zeppelins and steampunk boats in EQ 1. Not to mention a floating clockwork city.
No to ninjas (or what ever you want to package it as)
They should try to stick with the lore of the original game. Ok, so there is clock work technology in the game. So therefore we should have clock work guns. What about clockwork cars? Clock work helicopters? These guys use ridiculous logic to justify adding something that clearly should not be added in there. Why don't they just come out and say this is just a trend that is happening in today's games and they wanna ride it? Plain and simple.
So, this game isn't close to coming out and they are trying to make this a wow-clone. Sugar coat it as much as you want, but game devs do this type of crap. Look at how Diablo 3 sold out its original fan-base to make D3 cartoony like WoW. This game sees how guns and ninja type characters are incorporated into many MMO's nowadays and they want to do it as well because its popular or so they think. Yes, bright colors, guns,
*I respect guns in the Warhammer universe because they are an essential part of Warhammer Fantasy battles (i.e. cannons, etc)
**Yes while some items exist in lore, it doesn't mean to incorporate it as a major part of the game. So DnD has old style guns in one book. They were NOT MAJOR parts in ANY Dragonlance books or Forgotten Realms books. I mean we know the Far East exists sort of in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't mean Samurais and Ninjas are walking around in Forgotten Realms novels all the time. I've read tons of those books and I think I remember reading about 1 monk character in a minor role.
We do have clockwork zeppelins and steampunk boats in EQ 1. Not to mention a floating clockwork city.
Yeah, I was just making the argument that just because something exists in the gameworld in a minor aspect doesn't mean you should use some sort of backwards logic as an excuse to make it into a class. For example, in EQ1 were there a good amount of NPC's or NPC mobs running around with guns? If not, well leave it out. I mean I can use the logic to create any clock work object I want and use it as an excuse to be in the game. You can add new stuff to the game without just making stuff up. If they had a gun wielding faction, you could say, ok this new class comes from that gun wielding faction we had in the orignial game.
The clock work tech is a minor or major part of EQ1? Even if you argue major, do guns exist in EQ1 or 2? If so, was it major at all or was it just barely existent? Were there bomb wielding factions or NPCs? Were they major or minor parts of just some mob out in a forest that no one cared about.
Just with they'd stop making crap up and just come out and say "guns and ninja classes are popular in todays MMO so we want to add them in". Not ok we are going to make some stuff up and play 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to support our case.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
No to ninjas (or what ever you want to package it as)
They should try to stick with the lore of the original game. Ok, so there is clock work technology in the game. So therefore we should have clock work guns. What about clockwork cars? Clock work helicopters? These guys use ridiculous logic to justify adding something that clearly should not be added in there. Why don't they just come out and say this is just a trend that is happening in today's games and they wanna ride it? Plain and simple.
So, this game isn't close to coming out and they are trying to make this a wow-clone. Sugar coat it as much as you want, but game devs do this type of crap. Look at how Diablo 3 sold out its original fan-base to make D3 cartoony like WoW. This game sees how guns and ninja type characters are incorporated into many MMO's nowadays and they want to do it as well because its popular or so they think. Yes, bright colors, guns,
*I respect guns in the Warhammer universe because they are an essential part of Warhammer Fantasy battles (i.e. cannons, etc)
**Yes while some items exist in lore, it doesn't mean to incorporate it as a major part of the game. So DnD has old style guns in one book. They were NOT MAJOR parts in ANY Dragonlance books or Forgotten Realms books. I mean we know the Far East exists sort of in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't mean Samurais and Ninjas are walking around in Forgotten Realms novels all the time. I've read tons of those books and I think I remember reading about 1 monk character in a minor role.
We do have clockwork zeppelins and steampunk boats in EQ 1. Not to mention a floating clockwork city.
Yeah, I was just making the argument that just because something exists in the gameworld in a minor aspect doesn't mean you should use some sort of backwards logic as an excuse to make it into a class. For example, in EQ1 were there a good amount of NPC's or NPC mobs running around with guns? If not, well leave it out. I mean I can use the logic to create any clock work object I want and use it as an excuse to be in the game. You can add new stuff to the game without just making stuff up. If they had a gun wielding faction, you could say, ok this new class comes from that gun wielding faction we had in the orignial game.
The clock work tech is a minor or major part of EQ1? Even if you argue major, do guns exist in EQ1 or 2? If so, was it major at all or was it just barely existent? Were there bomb wielding factions or NPCs? Were they major or minor parts of just some mob out in a forest that no one cared about.
Just with they'd stop making crap up and just come out and say "guns and ninja classes are popular in todays MMO so we want to add them in". Not ok we are going to make some stuff up and play 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to support our case.
Yeah, I was just making the argument that just because something exists in the gameworld in a minor aspect doesn't mean you should use some sort of backwards logic as an excuse to make it into a class. For example, in EQ1 were there a good amount of NPC's or NPC mobs running around with guns? If not, well leave it out. I mean I can use the logic to create any clock work object I want and use it as an excuse to be in the game. You can add new stuff to the game without just making stuff up. If they had a gun wielding faction, you could say, ok this new class comes from that gun wielding faction we had in the orignial game.
The clock work tech is a minor or major part of EQ1? Even if you argue major, do guns exist in EQ1 or 2? If so, was it major at all or was it just barely existent? Were there bomb wielding factions or NPCs? Were they major or minor parts of just some mob out in a forest that no one cared about.
Just with they'd stop making crap up and just come out and say "guns and ninja classes are popular in todays MMO so we want to add them in". Not ok we are going to make some stuff up and play 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to support our case.
Let me add a counterpoint to this:
Shouldnt the world be trying to evolve the technology? Why shouldnt the gnomes be hard at work trying to build clockwork guns?
And if there are 40 classes and one of them can use clockwork guns is it a major or minor part of the game? i originally voted no on the poll, but thinking about a tinker class that uses clockwork guns doesnt sound bad, provided the guns are appropriate (bulky, slow, inaccurate but hard hitting). And i bet if such a class was implemented more than half of the no voters would have no issue with it.
I think its not that guns and ninjas are popular, i think they are brainstorming as many classes as possible. When you have 40+ classes thinking outside the box is necessary.
What about "modern" concepts like Knights and Priests? You know, modern, because they were prominent at the same historical period as Ninjas.
I think they figured out pretty quickly that the word "modern" had no place in that question.
Also, why Guns and Ninjas would be packaged together in the same question is beyond me. One is a reference to using technology (which is more commonly modern) the other is a reference to using historical/fantasy influences from non-western cultures (Ninjas, Samurai, Monks, whatever)
Personally, I am leanings towards a "no" on guns, mostly because the ranged-combat gameplay is easily covered by bows / crossbows, etc.
On the other hand, I think drawing on more than just western medieval/fantasy elements opens up a lot of interesting things. I know many people that are attracted to playing Monk/Martial Artist type characters, Ninjas & Samurai seem a natural extension of that.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
When you have 40+ classes thinking outside the box is necessary.
Not really. Each EQN class can use 2 weapons and has 4 abilities. If you take an EQ2 class that can use like 10 weapons and has 50 abilities, you can make at least 5 separate classes out of each one. And there are 26 in EQ2. Not suggesting that this will (or should) be done, just pointing out that a "class" in EQN is pretty thin.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Clockwork (robots), flying machines, tinkering, explosive devices and so on were a massive part of Gnome lore and play a big role in both EQ and EQ2. I find it hard to believe that gnomes can create rocket ships that take them to the Kingdom of Sky, yet they can't create a mechanised projectile weapon.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of guns, but if done in a steam punk clockwork way it would definitely fit the lore and setting.
this was actually the definition i learned in college.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I wanted to make a point that I think is very telling of SOE in handling this so far and it is something many of you people need to realize.
In the "Should races have any class restrictions?" round table, they say that about 41% of the people said "Yes, there should be class restrictions" but they said it was not the MAJORITY vote, they said it was the PLURALITY vote (which by the way, who the hell ever heard of the term plurality used in a voting result?) and so SOE chose to go against the 41% majority vote. Yet in this round table with the vote of guns/ninjas, they say that although 46% of people said there should be NO gun and NO ninjas in the games, SOE said that the MAJORITY of the vote was is in favor to all of those who voted anything but A. Now i'm not one for blaspheming but that is complete and utter garbage. They are literally manipulating the results of the votes to make their case and also make you think you have a voice in these matters when and in the end, they're just do what they were originally intending on doing all along (which we've already seen in the race/class restrictions round table).
Yeah, I was just making the argument that just because something exists in the gameworld in a minor aspect doesn't mean you should use some sort of backwards logic as an excuse to make it into a class. For example, in EQ1 were there a good amount of NPC's or NPC mobs running around with guns? If not, well leave it out. I mean I can use the logic to create any clock work object I want and use it as an excuse to be in the game. You can add new stuff to the game without just making stuff up. If they had a gun wielding faction, you could say, ok this new class comes from that gun wielding faction we had in the orignial game.
The clock work tech is a minor or major part of EQ1? Even if you argue major, do guns exist in EQ1 or 2? If so, was it major at all or was it just barely existent? Were there bomb wielding factions or NPCs? Were they major or minor parts of just some mob out in a forest that no one cared about.
Just with they'd stop making crap up and just come out and say "guns and ninja classes are popular in todays MMO so we want to add them in". Not ok we are going to make some stuff up and play 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to support our case.
Let me add a counterpoint to this:
Shouldnt the world be trying to evolve the technology? Why shouldnt the gnomes be hard at work trying to build clockwork guns?
And if there are 40 classes and one of them can use clockwork guns is it a major or minor part of the game? i originally voted no on the poll, but thinking about a tinker class that uses clockwork guns doesnt sound bad, provided the guns are appropriate (bulky, slow, inaccurate but hard hitting). And i bet if such a class was implemented more than half of the no voters would have no issue with it.
I think its not that guns and ninjas are popular, i think they are brainstorming as many classes as possible. When you have 40+ classes thinking outside the box is necessary.
Exactly! Clockwork cities & automatons (complete with crude AI) are fine, but a 'clockwork' gun is going too far? What kind of sense does that make, exactly? I find the presence of guns to be far more believable then the concept that over the course of two games & quite a number of years technology in Norrath hasn't advanced enough for inventors to realize that combustible gasses can shoot objects down an enclosed space at a high rate of speed. Seems to me that realization should've come about long before they figured out how to create robots.
Also, I should point out that an assassin doesn't have to be a ninja. Covert operatives have been used for assassinations & espionage for thousands of years. Hell, the term assassin is derived from the Arabic word ?ashsh?sh?n, which in turn was a misnomer used to refer to the men used by a cult leader around the crusades to eliminate religious, military, and political targets. It was believed (not so much these days) that said leader used hashish to control & influence his men.
Point is, feudal Japan didn't have a monopoly on contract killers, despite what Hollywood would have you believe (along with the portrayal of katanas as invincible god-like weapons which can cut through steel blocks, but that's another rant). There's no reason they wouldn't fit in the medieval fantasy universe of EQN.
When you have 40+ classes thinking outside the box is necessary.
Not really. Each EQN class can use 2 weapons and has 4 abilities. If you take an EQ2 class that can use like 10 weapons and has 50 abilities, you can make at least 5 separate classes out of each one. And there are 26 in EQ2. Not suggesting that this will (or should) be done, just pointing out that a "class" in EQN is pretty thin.
each class has bare minimum 12 abilities, 4 for weapon a, 4 for weapon b, and 4 general
We dont know how much beyond that there will be. And when you start adding in all the armor abilities and such, the classes surely arent as thin as you think they will be. We shall see.
Originally posted by evilastro Clockwork (robots), flying machines, tinkering, explosive devices and so on were a massive part of Gnome lore and play a big role in both EQ and EQ2. I find it hard to believe that gnomes can create rocket ships that take them to the Kingdom of Sky, yet they can't create a mechanised projectile weapon.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of guns, but if done in a steam punk clockwork way it would definitely fit the lore and setting.
I stand about the same. I voted yes because even though I would prefer no guns personally, I don't see a reason the game should be shut off from producing them if it fits the lore. Sadly after reading a lot of responses on this site, the word that people love to throw around is immersion. I can see that a lot of people are claiming something is immersion breaking if they don't like it therefore if it's in the game it doesn't fit. I don't think it would be immersion breaking unless it was something jarring to the world around me like an AK47 in the game or dual uzis. I can rationalize there being guns in the game just like your example because it's really not that hard to fathom the creation of something so simple when compared to the other inventions the gnomes have produced, but some people are so against it that there will be no discussing it.
Originally posted by Enrif just some images i shot at a close museum. Its original stuff from the late medieval. Even a Gun-Halbard.(maybe long loading time for the pictures) ...
Thank you for sharing, but none of these weapons is medieval. The guns are probably Kentucky Rifles, they where in use mostly during the 18th century. The other weapons have a wheellock that was invented in the 16th century.
During the late middle ages there where only cannons and hand cannons which where only useful during sieges. The first handguns that could be used on the battlefield where introduced right at the end of the middle ages in the late 15th century. These where Matchlock arquebuses. A matchlock weapon takes about 45 seconds to reload, it can't be carried loaded and it can't be used under bad weather conditions.
China had matchlocks as early as the 14th century,being mentioned in Huolongjing.
Beyond that the earliest gunpowder based weapon was in the 12th century (granted it wasn't a firearm so much as a flame thrower/shrapnel dispenser).
Bombards were also dated as early as the 12 century with illustrations of them from that time frame. Huochongs as well which date to the 1300s.
Things that were less cannon like and more gun like didn't show active use until the 14th century and on, but you still have it's precursors, and in a fantasy setting I doubt it's abnormal to fudge some such elements by a century or ten.
Not advocating firearms or anything in particular, just addendum.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The game of seven degrees of Kevin Bacon continues.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Originally posted by Enrif just some images i shot at a close museum. Its original stuff from the late medieval. Even a Gun-Halbard.(maybe long loading time for the pictures) ...
Thank you for sharing, but none of these weapons is medieval. The guns are probably Kentucky Rifles, they where in use mostly during the 18th century. The other weapons have a wheellock that was invented in the 16th century.
During the late middle ages there where only cannons and hand cannons which where only useful during sieges. The first handguns that could be used on the battlefield where introduced right at the end of the middle ages in the late 15th century. These where Matchlock arquebuses. A matchlock weapon takes about 45 seconds to reload, it can't be carried loaded and it can't be used under bad weather conditions.
This are original weapons from Germany. Late medieval. Not US stuff.
SOE is building a game using their IP. The lore in the game supports guns, as more advanced technology already exists in both EQ games. There are already monks, so ninjas are probably a variation of that.
You don't like it? That's perfectly fine, but any "lore" arguments you can leave at the door.
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SOE is building a game using their IP. The lore in the game supports guns, as more advanced technology already exists in both EQ games. There are already monks, so ninjas are probably a variation of that.
You don't like it? That's perfectly fine, but any "lore" arguments you can leave at the door.
Wow, that is a stupid line of logic to follow. Were there pandas in the original game? Ok no? Well Pandas are bears so if there were bears in the game, we can have Panda Monks! Nevermind that, lets have Panda Ninjas! Woot lets use poor logic to make this game stupid like WoW!!!! hey if you can't beat em join em you know. You gotta make what the kids want nowadays.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Comments
Was not intending to create a poll that showed what I wanted to see or repeat what the poll was in the round table. I figured people already decided how they felt after watching the decision and don't need repeat questions.
I'm not completely against having some aspects of guns and ninjas in the game. The problem is I don't trust SOE to do it right, because they have already shown that their perception of taste is not really good. So I think it would be better to not have those things at all, to lead them not into temptation to go completely overboard with it.
I'm ok with having some technological elements in EQN as long as it is subtle. It should be some half magical Leonardo da Vinci stuff that crazy scientists do, not robots and steam engines everywhere.
I also think that modern concepts would not work in every fantasy setting. The world has to have a overall late medieval/renascence feel. In a very mystical setting like The Lord of the Rings guns would look out of place no matter what.
It would be ok if guns where very primitive and uncommon and their use was limited to special classes. And they should have the long reloading times that early firearms had.
GW2 handles it exactly the wrong way. GW2 basically has modern semi-automatic pistols and rifles everywhere that go bangbangbangbangbang and some of them even look very modern.
A ninja is just a type of assassin. Of course EQN should have some sort of sneaky class that can where a black face mask, but if they put a class called "Ninja" in there or one that is 100% like a ninja, that would be just lame.
That is true. I really hope EQN won't go the same way as Spore. Spore also was very much hyped and it featured interesting new concepts and great innovative technologies, like the creature creator. But in the end was a total failure because the gameplay war generic and unimaginative. Spore started out so great and then they completely ruined it. They even decided to make the art style look cute and cartoony. It somehow looks like they stopped development half was through and then gave it to Zynga to finish it.
There is something called suspension of disbelief. I can make my self believe there are frog people in Norrath, but if basic laws of physics don't apply we are entering Loony Tunes territory.
You probably remember the Legolas vs. Oliphaunt scene from the third Lord of the Rings movie. Do you remember why so many people complained about it? Because it is just stupid and completely breaks the mood of the film.
No to guns
No to ninjas (or what ever you want to package it as)
They should try to stick with the lore of the original game. Ok, so there is clock work technology in the game. So therefore we should have clock work guns. What about clockwork cars? Clock work helicopters? These guys use ridiculous logic to justify adding something that clearly should not be added in there. Why don't they just come out and say this is just a trend that is happening in today's games and they wanna ride it? Plain and simple.
So, this game isn't close to coming out and they are trying to make this a wow-clone. Sugar coat it as much as you want, but game devs do this type of crap. Look at how Diablo 3 sold out its original fan-base to make D3 cartoony like WoW. This game sees how guns and ninja type characters are incorporated into many MMO's nowadays and they want to do it as well because its popular or so they think. Yes, bright colors, guns, any other MMO cliche cookie cutter stuff you wanna add?
*I respect guns in the Warhammer universe because they are an essential part of Warhammer Fantasy battles (i.e. cannons, etc)
**Yes while some items exist in lore, it doesn't mean to incorporate it as a major part of the game. So DnD has old style guns in one book. They were NOT MAJOR parts in ANY Dragonlance books or Forgotten Realms books. I mean we know the Far East exists sort of in Forgotten Realms but that doesn't mean Samurais and Ninjas are walking around in Forgotten Realms novels all the time. I've read tons of those books and I think I remember reading about 1 monk character in a minor role.
We do have clockwork zeppelins and steampunk boats in EQ 1. Not to mention a floating clockwork city.
Yeah, I was just making the argument that just because something exists in the gameworld in a minor aspect doesn't mean you should use some sort of backwards logic as an excuse to make it into a class. For example, in EQ1 were there a good amount of NPC's or NPC mobs running around with guns? If not, well leave it out. I mean I can use the logic to create any clock work object I want and use it as an excuse to be in the game. You can add new stuff to the game without just making stuff up. If they had a gun wielding faction, you could say, ok this new class comes from that gun wielding faction we had in the orignial game.
The clock work tech is a minor or major part of EQ1? Even if you argue major, do guns exist in EQ1 or 2? If so, was it major at all or was it just barely existent? Were there bomb wielding factions or NPCs? Were they major or minor parts of just some mob out in a forest that no one cared about.
Just with they'd stop making crap up and just come out and say "guns and ninja classes are popular in todays MMO so we want to add them in". Not ok we are going to make some stuff up and play 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to support our case.
Hmm. Fair enough. :-).
Let me add a counterpoint to this:
Shouldnt the world be trying to evolve the technology? Why shouldnt the gnomes be hard at work trying to build clockwork guns?
And if there are 40 classes and one of them can use clockwork guns is it a major or minor part of the game? i originally voted no on the poll, but thinking about a tinker class that uses clockwork guns doesnt sound bad, provided the guns are appropriate (bulky, slow, inaccurate but hard hitting). And i bet if such a class was implemented more than half of the no voters would have no issue with it.
I think its not that guns and ninjas are popular, i think they are brainstorming as many classes as possible. When you have 40+ classes thinking outside the box is necessary.
What about "modern" concepts like Knights and Priests? You know, modern, because they were prominent at the same historical period as Ninjas.
I think they figured out pretty quickly that the word "modern" had no place in that question.
Also, why Guns and Ninjas would be packaged together in the same question is beyond me. One is a reference to using technology (which is more commonly modern) the other is a reference to using historical/fantasy influences from non-western cultures (Ninjas, Samurai, Monks, whatever)
Personally, I am leanings towards a "no" on guns, mostly because the ranged-combat gameplay is easily covered by bows / crossbows, etc.
On the other hand, I think drawing on more than just western medieval/fantasy elements opens up a lot of interesting things. I know many people that are attracted to playing Monk/Martial Artist type characters, Ninjas & Samurai seem a natural extension of that.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
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Not really. Each EQN class can use 2 weapons and has 4 abilities. If you take an EQ2 class that can use like 10 weapons and has 50 abilities, you can make at least 5 separate classes out of each one. And there are 26 in EQ2. Not suggesting that this will (or should) be done, just pointing out that a "class" in EQN is pretty thin.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of guns, but if done in a steam punk clockwork way it would definitely fit the lore and setting.
the term 'modern' is a bit ambiguous actually:
"Modern history, also referred to as the modern period or the modern era, is the historiographical approach to the timeframe after the post-classical era (known as the Middle Ages).[1][2] Modern history can be further broken down into the early modern period and the late modern period after the French Revolution and the Industrial Revolution. Contemporary history is the span of historic events that are immediately relevant to the present time. The modern era began approximately in the 16th century."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history)
this was actually the definition i learned in college.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I wanted to make a point that I think is very telling of SOE in handling this so far and it is something many of you people need to realize.
In the "Should races have any class restrictions?" round table, they say that about 41% of the people said "Yes, there should be class restrictions" but they said it was not the MAJORITY vote, they said it was the PLURALITY vote (which by the way, who the hell ever heard of the term plurality used in a voting result?) and so SOE chose to go against the 41% majority vote. Yet in this round table with the vote of guns/ninjas, they say that although 46% of people said there should be NO gun and NO ninjas in the games, SOE said that the MAJORITY of the vote was is in favor to all of those who voted anything but A. Now i'm not one for blaspheming but that is complete and utter garbage. They are literally manipulating the results of the votes to make their case and also make you think you have a voice in these matters when and in the end, they're just do what they were originally intending on doing all along (which we've already seen in the race/class restrictions round table).
Exactly! Clockwork cities & automatons (complete with crude AI) are fine, but a 'clockwork' gun is going too far? What kind of sense does that make, exactly? I find the presence of guns to be far more believable then the concept that over the course of two games & quite a number of years technology in Norrath hasn't advanced enough for inventors to realize that combustible gasses can shoot objects down an enclosed space at a high rate of speed. Seems to me that realization should've come about long before they figured out how to create robots.
Also, I should point out that an assassin doesn't have to be a ninja. Covert operatives have been used for assassinations & espionage for thousands of years. Hell, the term assassin is derived from the Arabic word ?ashsh?sh?n, which in turn was a misnomer used to refer to the men used by a cult leader around the crusades to eliminate religious, military, and political targets. It was believed (not so much these days) that said leader used hashish to control & influence his men.
Point is, feudal Japan didn't have a monopoly on contract killers, despite what Hollywood would have you believe (along with the portrayal of katanas as invincible god-like weapons which can cut through steel blocks, but that's another rant). There's no reason they wouldn't fit in the medieval fantasy universe of EQN.
each class has bare minimum 12 abilities, 4 for weapon a, 4 for weapon b, and 4 general
We dont know how much beyond that there will be. And when you start adding in all the armor abilities and such, the classes surely arent as thin as you think they will be. We shall see.
The game is set in alternate timeline and in future. SOE can do whatever they like with technology part of the game.
I stand about the same. I voted yes because even though I would prefer no guns personally, I don't see a reason the game should be shut off from producing them if it fits the lore. Sadly after reading a lot of responses on this site, the word that people love to throw around is immersion. I can see that a lot of people are claiming something is immersion breaking if they don't like it therefore if it's in the game it doesn't fit. I don't think it would be immersion breaking unless it was something jarring to the world around me like an AK47 in the game or dual uzis. I can rationalize there being guns in the game just like your example because it's really not that hard to fathom the creation of something so simple when compared to the other inventions the gnomes have produced, but some people are so against it that there will be no discussing it.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Thank you for sharing, but none of these weapons is medieval. The guns are probably Kentucky Rifles, they where in use mostly during the 18th century. The other weapons have a wheellock that was invented in the 16th century.
During the late middle ages there where only cannons and hand cannons which where only useful during sieges. The first handguns that could be used on the battlefield where introduced right at the end of the middle ages in the late 15th century. These where Matchlock arquebuses. A matchlock weapon takes about 45 seconds to reload, it can't be carried loaded and it can't be used under bad weather conditions.
Erm...
China had matchlocks as early as the 14th century, being mentioned in Huolongjing.
Beyond that the earliest gunpowder based weapon was in the 12th century (granted it wasn't a firearm so much as a flame thrower/shrapnel dispenser).
Bombards were also dated as early as the 12 century with illustrations of them from that time frame. Huochongs as well which date to the 1300s.
Things that were less cannon like and more gun like didn't show active use until the 14th century and on, but you still have it's precursors, and in a fantasy setting I doubt it's abnormal to fudge some such elements by a century or ten.
Not advocating firearms or anything in particular, just addendum.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
This are original weapons from Germany. Late medieval. Not US stuff.
SOE is building a game using their IP. The lore in the game supports guns, as more advanced technology already exists in both EQ games. There are already monks, so ninjas are probably a variation of that.
You don't like it? That's perfectly fine, but any "lore" arguments you can leave at the door.
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