You know for as much as I hear about how awesome the gw2 model is, I'm playing it now and I hardly ever see players around at least in the lower areas. Could it be that subscription based games keep players playing either due to more quality content ie raids or obligation because they pay for it. Honestly I don't think subs are that bad. I've only been playing gw2 every now and then between games, currently waiting for ffxiv. If you can buy a game and just play it whenever you want chances are it's not going to keep many players. I agree with one persons post that the sub model will be the least of this games problems.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Originally posted by marcmy You know for as much as I hear about how awesome the gw2 model is, I'm playing it now and I hardly ever see players around at least in the lower areas. Could it be that subscription based games keep players playing either due to more quality content ie raids or obligation because they pay for it. Honestly I don't think subs are that bad. I've only been playing gw2 every now and then between games, currently waiting for ffxiv. If you can buy a game and just play it whenever you want chances are it's not going to keep many players. I agree with one persons post that the sub model will be the least of this games problems.
P2P has yet to prove that it actually works well. Every time it doesn't work out, people just blame it on the game and not the model. Well correction, only the obsessive P2P players act like it can't be the model. I assume this is the case because it's hard to admit that the model you like most has some issues.
Also for the most part, all the P2Pers don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. As long as they can play, as long as it's the model they like, they really could care less about all the other people who do not agree.
Matter of fact, when people try and meet half way, they just troll and act like there is no other correct way to do it, but the way they like to do it. Some to the point that wont even bother to try a game just because it isn't using a P2P model. These people some how got the notion that ALL games besides P2P are good.
The P2P model will work for PC (maybe) but for consoles there is no way ppl will pay 14.99$ per month. They allready have to pay for their mmo services so they can play with their friends online...
ESO will be crawling on their knees, begging the PC crowd to forgive them and to save them...
PS+ will not be needed for ESO. Sony has already answered that question during PS4 Q/As. Live on the other hand I do not know.
I was against the idea of P2P for the longest time and it is why I never played WoW. I played FPS and RTS games to death and couldn't fathom the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to play a game. I simply didn't understand it though. After I heard LOTRO went F2P after their Mirkwood expansion I decided to try MMOs. I winded up going VIP because at the time it made the most sense. Next expansion that rolled out was a big disappointment compared to the previous ones, released with one broken raid and no major changes to the game system. 6 months later they released an instance cluster, smaller and much less fun and exciting as the previous content. This appeared to be a trend because in the next expansion released with no raids and the instance cluster 6 months later was the worst trash they've ever released. Now the future expansion is doing something called big battles where level 10 players can do endgame content with max levels (albeit missing all the endgame skills, gear, traits etc) and has no plans for any instance cluster ever again. F2P kills games, period end.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Originally posted by marcmy I was against the idea of P2P for the longest time and it is why I never played WoW. I played FPS and RTS games to death and couldn't fathom the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to play a game. I simply didn't understand it though. After I heard LOTRO went F2P after their Mirkwood expansion I decided to try MMOs. I winded up going VIP because at the time it made the most sense. Next expansion that rolled out was a big disappointment compared to the previous ones, released with one broken raid and no major changes to the game system. 6 months later they released an instance cluster, smaller and much less fun and exciting as the previous content. This appeared to be a trend because in the next expansion released with no raids and the instance cluster 6 months later was the worst trash they've ever released. Now the future expansion is doing something called big battles where level 10 players can do endgame content with max levels (albeit missing all the endgame skills, gear, traits etc) and has no plans for any instance cluster ever again. F2P kills games, period end.
Oh ya .. you know, YOUR personal experience is above everyone else experience. Your absolute above average reasoning skills won this argument. Your proof is absolute and factual in every way shape and form. It has so much evidence to back your statement up. *sarcasm end*
Thanks for the pleasant story. I can give you about 5 stories that counter your argument since I have been playing P2P, B2P, and F2P games for a pretty long time, and I experienced crappy games and good games fairly equally among them.
The only reason I do not like P2P in particular is because you spend a lot more money in comparison of B2P and many P2P games like to go F2P ... leaving all the money you invested in it, pointless. You wasted all that money, just for the stupid game to go F2P anyway.
I don't consider that a good way to invest in entertainment. It's practically a scam.
Originally posted by marcmy I was against the idea of P2P for the longest time and it is why I never played WoW. I played FPS and RTS games to death and couldn't fathom the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to play a game. I simply didn't understand it though. After I heard LOTRO went F2P after their Mirkwood expansion I decided to try MMOs. I winded up going VIP because at the time it made the most sense. Next expansion that rolled out was a big disappointment compared to the previous ones, released with one broken raid and no major changes to the game system. 6 months later they released an instance cluster, smaller and much less fun and exciting as the previous content. This appeared to be a trend because in the next expansion released with no raids and the instance cluster 6 months later was the worst trash they've ever released. Now the future expansion is doing something called big battles where level 10 players can do endgame content with max levels (albeit missing all the endgame skills, gear, traits etc) and has no plans for any instance cluster ever again. F2P kills games, period end.
Oh ya .. you know, YOUR personal experience is above everyone else experience. Your absolute above average reasoning skills won this argument. Your proof is absolute and factual in every way shape and form. It has so much evidence to back your statement up. *sarcasm end*
Thanks for the pleasant story. I can give you about 5 stories that counter your argument since I have been playing P2P, B2P, and F2P games for a pretty long time, and I experienced crappy games and good games fairly equally among them.
The only reason I do not like P2P in particular is because you spend a lot more money in comparison of B2P and many P2P games like to go F2P ... leaving all the money you invested in it, pointless. You wasted all that money, just for the stupid game to go F2P anyway.
I don't consider that a good way to invest in entertainment. It's practically a scam.
Your attitude is very condescending and you don't make a good case for your argumenet at all. If anything F2P is a scam. They tell you it's free but then you wind up having to pay to do practically ANYTHING if you want to reach past level 30. If you want to raid and do dungeons? Forget it, you might as well just pay $15 a month because you'll be shelling out way more than that. I've seen it happen plenty, not just in LOTRO but many other "F2P" games since I've played it and quit. RIFT is another one that I played to endgame. It was the staple of the P2P business model, then it went F2P, and guess what? Now they sell armor that you need to do dungeons in the cash shop. Sure, you could go ahead and grind our your repeatables but most people would rather take shortcuts because that takes forever and if you're on a timely schedule and need to raid with your guild you're not going to do it. F2P = pay to win. No one likes the idea of having to pay monthly for a video game but the alternative almost always sucks.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Originally posted by marcmy I was against the idea of P2P for the longest time and it is why I never played WoW. I played FPS and RTS games to death and couldn't fathom the idea of having to pay a monthly fee to play a game. I simply didn't understand it though. After I heard LOTRO went F2P after their Mirkwood expansion I decided to try MMOs. I winded up going VIP because at the time it made the most sense. Next expansion that rolled out was a big disappointment compared to the previous ones, released with one broken raid and no major changes to the game system. 6 months later they released an instance cluster, smaller and much less fun and exciting as the previous content. This appeared to be a trend because in the next expansion released with no raids and the instance cluster 6 months later was the worst trash they've ever released. Now the future expansion is doing something called big battles where level 10 players can do endgame content with max levels (albeit missing all the endgame skills, gear, traits etc) and has no plans for any instance cluster ever again. F2P kills games, period end.
Oh ya .. you know, YOUR personal experience is above everyone else experience. Your absolute above average reasoning skills won this argument. Your proof is absolute and factual in every way shape and form. It has so much evidence to back your statement up. *sarcasm end*
Thanks for the pleasant story. I can give you about 5 stories that counter your argument since I have been playing P2P, B2P, and F2P games for a pretty long time, and I experienced crappy games and good games fairly equally among them.
The only reason I do not like P2P in particular is because you spend a lot more money in comparison of B2P and many P2P games like to go F2P ... leaving all the money you invested in it, pointless. You wasted all that money, just for the stupid game to go F2P anyway.
I don't consider that a good way to invest in entertainment. It's practically a scam.
So the argument is in general that F2P is better because a P2P game will eventually in you opinion go F2P anyway? Therefore wasting your money in the long run. I respect that, I'd give you a story about getting ripped off for an expansion cost of $70.00 the F2P game not delivering on the content I purchased until 6 months later and then that content being ridiculous but I'm sure you wouldn't be interested.
As for gaming of any kind being a form of my preferred entertainment, I also happen to like the P2P model better, at least I know what I"m getting. It is entertainment and for roughly on average $15.00 I get 30 days of play time not worrying about players that want an advantage by purchasing from an item shop.
Realistically I spend more on 1 night of take out and a movie; food could be horrible and the movie could stink. Trust me this has happened. But its entertainment and I choose to get the most bang for my buck and in my opinion that in gaming for me is the P2P model.
Most often this isn't the case of p2p. You pay monthly and you get what you pay for. Maybe not raids and dungeons every month but I highly doubt that's reasonable. Everyone talks about guild wars 2's system and how they have so much content update with no sub. But what are we talking about? World bosses? It isn't the same a dungeon or a raid. 100-200 people on screen fighting a world boss isn't content IMO.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Oh and I forgot to mention... FFXIV is launching with 20 dungeons, and that's a sub game. Show me one f2p or even b2p that launches with that much content.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Originally posted by OniDaimyo77 Pay to play doesnt bother me one bit. The game just doesnt look super great so far from what I've seen and heard from beta. I despise cash shops and that's what this game would become if it was F2P and that would really ruin it. I hate people who want everything to be free. I really do. Don't play then and move on and find someone other welfare game to play. If they had any sense they would know that cash shop games cost way more overall than p2p does. If you can't afford 15 bucks a month for a sub, then maybe you shouldnt be playing video games anyway cause they are expensive in the first place. Maybe you should worry more then about food, gas, clothes and other essentials and less about games?
You sir have no clue what you are talking about. $15 isn't cheap when you add it up for 1 - 3 years of playing the game.
I try not to call anyone names on here and such. I really try but I don't know what else to call this excuse other then stupid.
It's a shame people like you have to make such non sense comments on the net all the time. No one is saying they can't literally afford $15 a month. However, we are more along the lines saying we can't afford it for what it's worth.
Let me ask you this, can you pay $15 a french fry? Yes 1 french fry. Chances are, you can say YES ... you can pay for it. However, would you? NO .. because you can't afford to pay $15 per french fry. It's just a crazy price.
Before you jump on me, keep in mind YOU are the one who called them welfare games. YOU are the one who acts like, people who do not want to pay $15 a month, are some how poor. YOU are the one who is trolling. YOU are the one mentioning F2P when NO ONE is really recommending that.
Man you're so right, all the whales that spend what we spend in a sub for a few years in one or two months should stop spending that, then we could watch your F2P games shut down because you and your freeloading homies can't subsidize it yourselves. Like the Man said, $15 a month is cheap, if you can't afford that then you have other things to worry about.
If you can't afford it and F2P is your only option then say you can't afford it so you want the game to be free, people would respect you more for being honest than trying to white knight F2P when we know for a fact its not free at all, and that cost makes itself all to clear early on.
All this bickering is dumb. P2P , F2P or whatever. No matter what MMO that goes live from now on it will never be able to keep players happy no matter what the pay model is.
People chew threw content like there is no tomorrow. Majority of players dont take the time to enjoy the dungeons and maps of the inbetween levels. All they are are just stepping stones to speed grind to the End Game zones and max level. Probably the most fun you will have in a MMO is as the newbie levels because you are learning this new world. After that it becomes the same ole same ole and you move on.
IMO Free to play opens the doors larger for hackers and botters because you can make as many accounts as you like and dont have to put one dime forward.
Instead of thrashing the game why dont you wait for reviews and more info to come out about the game. This is another problem in the gamer community, nobody wants to do research anymore. Nobody wants to read the game instruction manual before going on the forums and bitching about how to access a feature or control.
Originally posted by Gorwe Guild Wars 1 gave you everything p2ps offer you, but without raids(idc bout them, so yeah). It lived for 7 years just fine and funded one of the biggest and the most successful MMOs ever: its sequel GW 2.
If subs are oh so important, explain how this was possible?
You must have missed my post about how world bosses isn't content. Raids is content, that's fine for you not to care about them, but that is what I like, and you don't get that in non-P2P games, at least not of any quality.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Originally posted by OniDaimyo77 Pay to play doesnt bother me one bit. The game just doesnt look super great so far from what I've seen and heard from beta. I despise cash shops and that's what this game would become if it was F2P and that would really ruin it. I hate people who want everything to be free. I really do. Don't play then and move on and find someone other welfare game to play. If they had any sense they would know that cash shop games cost way more overall than p2p does. If you can't afford 15 bucks a month for a sub, then maybe you shouldnt be playing video games anyway cause they are expensive in the first place. Maybe you should worry more then about food, gas, clothes and other essentials and less about games?
You sir have no clue what you are talking about. $15 isn't cheap when you add it up for 1 - 3 years of playing the game.
I try not to call anyone names on here and such. I really try but I don't know what else to call this excuse other then stupid.
It's a shame people like you have to make such non sense comments on the net all the time. No one is saying they can't literally afford $15 a month. However, we are more along the lines saying we can't afford it for what it's worth.
Let me ask you this, can you pay $15 a french fry? Yes 1 french fry. Chances are, you can say YES ... you can pay for it. However, would you? NO .. because you can't afford to pay $15 per french fry. It's just a crazy price.
Before you jump on me, keep in mind YOU are the one who called them welfare games. YOU are the one who acts like, people who do not want to pay $15 a month, are some how poor. YOU are the one who is trolling. YOU are the one mentioning F2P when NO ONE is really recommending that.
Man you're so right, all the whales that spend what we spend in a sub for a few years in one or two months should stop spending that, then we could watch your F2P games shut down because you and your freeloading homies can't subsidize it yourselves. Like the Man said, $15 a month is cheap, if you can't afford that then you have other things to worry about.
If you can't afford it and F2P is your only option then say you can't afford it so you want the game to be free, people would respect you more for being honest than trying to white knight F2P when we know for a fact its not free at all, and that cost makes itself all to clear early on.
Another person talking about F2P when no one said anything about. I suggest you learn to read.
The problem with a subscription model is that I can wait 12 months say, get the box at a discounted price and get all the new expansion packs as well. All for the price of a single box! Even if it takes 2 or 3 months to play through it all then that won't be that much.
Sorry? Am I supposed to stay subscribed from day 1? Nope. People can drop the sub and come back a few months later.
Presumably Zenimax have decided they can make more money this way - and if so I hope they have set their expectations low. 2M sales and maybe 500k initial subs say. And then they stick to the model. Going F2P later would be a disaster.
I strongly believe that a EQ type model would be better. B2P; a charge for using the servers ($15/month); new content had to be bought.
Now I am not suggesting that the server charge be $15/month. Maybe $25 for 6 months or a year. What I am suggesting though is that Zenimax consider:
- sell the game as B2P; minimal server fee so as not to put people off buying the game.
- extra content has to be bought - and as its going to be (as per Zenimax) so awesome and so frequent why wouldn't people buy it? And maybe Zenimax could offer an EA B3 style premium membership for which people get a years worth of expansions at some discounted price.
A monthly sub: limits initial B2P sales; rewards people who put off purchasing; persuades people to take sub holidays.
Comments
gameplay > graphics
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
P2P has yet to prove that it actually works well. Every time it doesn't work out, people just blame it on the game and not the model. Well correction, only the obsessive P2P players act like it can't be the model. I assume this is the case because it's hard to admit that the model you like most has some issues.
Also for the most part, all the P2Pers don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. As long as they can play, as long as it's the model they like, they really could care less about all the other people who do not agree.
Matter of fact, when people try and meet half way, they just troll and act like there is no other correct way to do it, but the way they like to do it. Some to the point that wont even bother to try a game just because it isn't using a P2P model. These people some how got the notion that ALL games besides P2P are good.
Pretty sad world really. XD
PS+ will not be needed for ESO. Sony has already answered that question during PS4 Q/As. Live on the other hand I do not know.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Oh ya .. you know, YOUR personal experience is above everyone else experience. Your absolute above average reasoning skills won this argument. Your proof is absolute and factual in every way shape and form. It has so much evidence to back your statement up. *sarcasm end*
Thanks for the pleasant story. I can give you about 5 stories that counter your argument since I have been playing P2P, B2P, and F2P games for a pretty long time, and I experienced crappy games and good games fairly equally among them.
The only reason I do not like P2P in particular is because you spend a lot more money in comparison of B2P and many P2P games like to go F2P ... leaving all the money you invested in it, pointless. You wasted all that money, just for the stupid game to go F2P anyway.
I don't consider that a good way to invest in entertainment. It's practically a scam.
Your attitude is very condescending and you don't make a good case for your argumenet at all. If anything F2P is a scam. They tell you it's free but then you wind up having to pay to do practically ANYTHING if you want to reach past level 30. If you want to raid and do dungeons? Forget it, you might as well just pay $15 a month because you'll be shelling out way more than that. I've seen it happen plenty, not just in LOTRO but many other "F2P" games since I've played it and quit. RIFT is another one that I played to endgame. It was the staple of the P2P business model, then it went F2P, and guess what? Now they sell armor that you need to do dungeons in the cash shop. Sure, you could go ahead and grind our your repeatables but most people would rather take shortcuts because that takes forever and if you're on a timely schedule and need to raid with your guild you're not going to do it. F2P = pay to win. No one likes the idea of having to pay monthly for a video game but the alternative almost always sucks.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
So the argument is in general that F2P is better because a P2P game will eventually in you opinion go F2P anyway? Therefore wasting your money in the long run. I respect that, I'd give you a story about getting ripped off for an expansion cost of $70.00 the F2P game not delivering on the content I purchased until 6 months later and then that content being ridiculous but I'm sure you wouldn't be interested.
As for gaming of any kind being a form of my preferred entertainment, I also happen to like the P2P model better, at least I know what I"m getting. It is entertainment and for roughly on average $15.00 I get 30 days of play time not worrying about players that want an advantage by purchasing from an item shop.
Realistically I spend more on 1 night of take out and a movie; food could be horrible and the movie could stink. Trust me this has happened. But its entertainment and I choose to get the most bang for my buck and in my opinion that in gaming for me is the P2P model.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Man you're so right, all the whales that spend what we spend in a sub for a few years in one or two months should stop spending that, then we could watch your F2P games shut down because you and your freeloading homies can't subsidize it yourselves. Like the Man said, $15 a month is cheap, if you can't afford that then you have other things to worry about.
If you can't afford it and F2P is your only option then say you can't afford it so you want the game to be free, people would respect you more for being honest than trying to white knight F2P when we know for a fact its not free at all, and that cost makes itself all to clear early on.
All this bickering is dumb. P2P , F2P or whatever. No matter what MMO that goes live from now on it will never be able to keep players happy no matter what the pay model is.
People chew threw content like there is no tomorrow. Majority of players dont take the time to enjoy the dungeons and maps of the inbetween levels. All they are are just stepping stones to speed grind to the End Game zones and max level. Probably the most fun you will have in a MMO is as the newbie levels because you are learning this new world. After that it becomes the same ole same ole and you move on.
IMO Free to play opens the doors larger for hackers and botters because you can make as many accounts as you like and dont have to put one dime forward.
Instead of thrashing the game why dont you wait for reviews and more info to come out about the game. This is another problem in the gamer community, nobody wants to do research anymore. Nobody wants to read the game instruction manual before going on the forums and bitching about how to access a feature or control.
You must have missed my post about how world bosses isn't content. Raids is content, that's fine for you not to care about them, but that is what I like, and you don't get that in non-P2P games, at least not of any quality.
Currently playing: Elder Scrolls Online, Elite: Dangerous | Recently played: FFXIV, Rift, LoTRO, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Guild Wars 2 | Single player RPGs: Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim
Another person talking about F2P when no one said anything about. I suggest you learn to read.
The problem with a subscription model is that I can wait 12 months say, get the box at a discounted price and get all the new expansion packs as well. All for the price of a single box! Even if it takes 2 or 3 months to play through it all then that won't be that much.
Sorry? Am I supposed to stay subscribed from day 1? Nope. People can drop the sub and come back a few months later.
Presumably Zenimax have decided they can make more money this way - and if so I hope they have set their expectations low. 2M sales and maybe 500k initial subs say. And then they stick to the model. Going F2P later would be a disaster.
I strongly believe that a EQ type model would be better. B2P; a charge for using the servers ($15/month); new content had to be bought.
Now I am not suggesting that the server charge be $15/month. Maybe $25 for 6 months or a year. What I am suggesting though is that Zenimax consider:
- sell the game as B2P; minimal server fee so as not to put people off buying the game.
- extra content has to be bought - and as its going to be (as per Zenimax) so awesome and so frequent why wouldn't people buy it? And maybe Zenimax could offer an EA B3 style premium membership for which people get a years worth of expansions at some discounted price.
A monthly sub: limits initial B2P sales; rewards people who put off purchasing; persuades people to take sub holidays.