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Why FFXIV:ARR instead of FFXI?

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  • NetSageNetSage Member UncommonPosts: 1,059

    From the sounds of it you've already made up your mind.  I'm not sure what you want us to do.

     

    FFXIV was never meant to be as deep as FFXI because FFXI is to deep for most people and most gamers.  Personally I see no rational reason for my crafting to effected based on the day of the week other than because they can.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by NetSage

    From the sounds of it you've already made up your mind.  I'm not sure what you want us to do. 

    I had an inkling, yes. That's why I even posted in the first place. If I didn't suspect that FFXIV wasn't as deep as FFXI I wouldn't have made the thread. What you're "supposed to do" is just tell me why you're playing this instead of FFXI (if you are). If it's because you like the graphics and the accessibility, fine. If you you like it because you think it IS as deep or deeper than FFXI, then that's fine too, but just let me know why.

    FFXIV was never meant to be as deep as FFXI because FFXI is to deep for most people and most gamers.  Personally I see no rational reason for my crafting to effected based on the day of the week other than because they can.

    I can believe that it wasn't meant to be as deep as FFXI. I don't have a problem with them making a more casual game, but that was kind of my question.

     

    And the reason for adding that kind of thing to crafting is it adds something for you to think about/plan around. I mean with that kind of logic it's like... why have ANY decisions in crafting, really? 

  • gessekai332gessekai332 Member UncommonPosts: 861
    because i dont like waiting 3 hrs to find a group in order to level my character.  i played it 10 years ago but i hated that you cannot do anything without a group. the graphics and game mechanics are extremely dated. ridiculous grind, impossible to find a group, just old, old game mechanics... it was optimized for ps2 for heavens sake. the same things that wowed me 10 years ago wont be the same things now. i dont doubt that ffxi right now has more depth, mostly because its had like 10 years of work under it. but given enough time, i believe ffxiv will generate a great deal of depth as well. if you are a final fantasy fan you should just give it a try. sometimes words cant place actual experience. 

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by gessekai332
    because i dont like waiting 3 hrs to find a group in order to level my character.  i played it 10 years ago but i hated that you cannot do anything without a group. the graphics and game mechanics are extremely dated. ridiculous grind, impossible to find a group, just old, old game mechanics... it was optimized for ps2 for heavens sake. the same things that wowed me 10 years ago wont be the same things now. i dont doubt that ffxi right now has more depth, mostly because its had like 10 years of work under it. but given enough time, i believe ffxiv will generate a great deal of depth as well. if you are a final fantasy fan you should just give it a try. sometimes words cant place actual experience. 

    Got it! This is the kind of post I was looking for. Thanks.

  • twruletwrule Member Posts: 1,251
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule

    I don't see what's 'deeper' about FFXI or its world than FFXIV, especially since most people spend 90% of their game time in Abyssea it seems, leaving the rest of the world empty and desolate.

    The main reasons I will play XIV over XI:

    1) Systems/mechanics updated to modern standards.

    2) Much more casual-play accessible and with an *interesting* casual-play experience

    3) Most people are playing XIV right now, not XI - plain and simple. The worlds in beta (at least currently) feel full of life and activity, not desolate wastelands.

    Well I think you kind of answered your own question. If a game is more casual/accessible, it's usually not as deep.

     

    I'm not a FFXI expert but it seems like the job quests are harder, raising chocobos is harder, etc.

    So for you 'deep' means 'requires long sessions of play to make tangible progress'? I'm unclear.

    If it means 'harder' as in 'more challenging' then I disagree. The only thing that was 'hard' about FFXI's job quests was persuading a high level character to help you do it, because they were balanced to make it impossible for some jobs to do their quest when they were actually first allowed to do it at level 30, or else needing a full alliance of player help that was harder to come by than a single high level character.

    There was nothing hard about raising chocobos either - you just visit it once a day. Maybe you get a million attempts at the egg quest to get the rare egg. Again, not hard, just time consuming.

    When I said 'casual-accessible' I meant that I can feel I'm making tangible progress, preferably while doing interesting things, even if I only have an hour or two to play on most nights.

    Forgive me but I thought there was a lot regarding chocobo breeding. As in different colors and attributes?

    You get an egg from a quest, it randomly has a color and tendencies toward certain attributes, so most of the variation came from luck/time spent with the quest. After that you just have to visit it daily, sometimes giving it an item depending on its status. Could have been less complex, yes, but I wouldn't call it 'deep'.

    Also even just getting the egg and raising it for a IRL month makes it a bit more deep and satisfying than just another typical mmo mount that can sometimes fight with you, which is what it is in FFXIV right?

    The highlighted phrase reinforces my previous understanding that you mean 'time consuming' when you say 'deep'. Yes, the chocobo you first get does not require raising, though there is supposed to be a breeding system added later, which I know nothing about.

    But no I don't think "deep" means requires long sessions, but deeper games probably in general WILL require more time invested, but the time invested doesn't necessarily make it deep.

    In that case, you may want to consider rephrasing your previous paragraph to reflect that; in any case I still am left with very little idea of what you mean by 'deep'.

    From what I understand you had more customizability with gear, the outpost quests were more difficult and only available at certain times, crafting was more in-depth and complicated (don't you have to pay attention to the time of month/day it is??), etc.

    I don't who told you that (probably someone caught up in nostalgia for XI who isn't well informed about XIV), but I disagree. You were expected to have multiple gear sets, which you could then macro in and out of during combat to increase certain stats, but I wouldn't call that 'customizability' - most people in the game were after the same handful of items regardless of job. There was absolutely nothing difficult about the outpost quests - they were simple fedex quests that were only available at certain times, like you said. Crafting was not more in depth by any means than FFXIV's system; yes you did have to factor in weather, but that's it - if you saw a certain weather icon on the screen, you craft or wait awhile to craft - the actual act of crafting was an 'put all the items in this window and hit okay, pray for success', nothing deep about it. In FFXIV you have to actively think about each step in a multi-step process of crafting which gets exponentially more complex as you level, even if you don't have to worry about irrelevant things like weather.

    It's a bit silly to long for the 'depth' (whatever that means) of a game you apparently never played, or at least didn't ever use the systems you are making examples of, no?

     

  • SerenesSerenes Member UncommonPosts: 351
    I played Final Fantasy XI right after its first expansion pack, and I loved it it was my first MMO and I played for 6 years, I quit right after Wings of the Goddess was released and if it was back in 2004, I would say this game over any other game, but time has been a cruel mistress to ole FFXI it has been raped patch after patch and expansion pack after expansion pack.... Final Fantasy XIV would be a deeper buy to me at this point not because it is deeper but because all of its potential has not been squandered away.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule

    I don't see what's 'deeper' about FFXI or its world than FFXIV, especially since most people spend 90% of their game time in Abyssea it seems, leaving the rest of the world empty and desolate.

    The main reasons I will play XIV over XI:

    1) Systems/mechanics updated to modern standards.

    2) Much more casual-play accessible and with an *interesting* casual-play experience

    3) Most people are playing XIV right now, not XI - plain and simple. The worlds in beta (at least currently) feel full of life and activity, not desolate wastelands.

    Well I think you kind of answered your own question. If a game is more casual/accessible, it's usually not as deep.

     

    I'm not a FFXI expert but it seems like the job quests are harder, raising chocobos is harder, etc.

    So for you 'deep' means 'requires long sessions of play to make tangible progress'? I'm unclear.

    If it means 'harder' as in 'more challenging' then I disagree. The only thing that was 'hard' about FFXI's job quests was persuading a high level character to help you do it, because they were balanced to make it impossible for some jobs to do their quest when they were actually first allowed to do it at level 30, or else needing a full alliance of player help that was harder to come by than a single high level character.

    There was nothing hard about raising chocobos either - you just visit it once a day. Maybe you get a million attempts at the egg quest to get the rare egg. Again, not hard, just time consuming.

    When I said 'casual-accessible' I meant that I can feel I'm making tangible progress, preferably while doing interesting things, even if I only have an hour or two to play on most nights.

    Forgive me but I thought there was a lot regarding chocobo breeding. As in different colors and attributes?

    You get an egg from a quest, it randomly has a color and tendencies toward certain attributes, so most of the variation came from luck/time spent with the quest. After that you just have to visit it daily, sometimes giving it an item depending on its status. Could have been less complex, yes, but I wouldn't call it 'deep'.

    You seem to be willfully vague regarding this. I was under the impression that breeding specific colors with specific attributes was pretty difficult.

    Also even just getting the egg and raising it for a IRL month makes it a bit more deep and satisfying than just another typical mmo mount that can sometimes fight with you, which is what it is in FFXIV right?

    The highlighted phrase reinforces my previous understanding that you mean 'time consuming' when you say 'deep'. Yes, the chocobo you first get does not require raising, though there is supposed to be a breeding system added later, which I know nothing about.

    Well when they do add a breeding system, then maybe it'll compete. But for now it doesn't seem to. But checking up on it daily (or often, I don't remember the exact mechanics of it) isn't simply "time consuming." It requires you to keep up on it as if it were a real creature. I'm not sure how that's not deeper than just doing another meaningless quest to get one.

    But no I don't think "deep" means requires long sessions, but deeper games probably in general WILL require more time invested, but the time invested doesn't necessarily make it deep.

    In that case, you may want to consider rephrasing your previous paragraph to reflect that; in any case I still am left with very little idea of what you mean by 'deep'.

    Well it's kind of a nebulous term. Some similar synonyms: complex, difficult, interesting, etc.

    From what I understand you had more customizability with gear, the outpost quests were more difficult and only available at certain times, crafting was more in-depth and complicated (don't you have to pay attention to the time of month/day it is??), etc.

    I don't who told you that (probably someone caught up in nostalgia for XI who isn't well informed about XIV), but I disagree. You were expected to have multiple gear sets, which you could then macro in and out of during combat to increase certain stats, but I wouldn't call that 'customizability' - most people in the game were after the same handful of items regardless of job. There was absolutely nothing difficult about the outpost quests - they were simple fedex quests that were only available at certain times, like you said. Crafting was not more in depth by any means than FFXIV's system; yes you did have to factor in weather, but that's it - if you saw a certain weather icon on the screen, you craft or wait awhile to craft - the actual act of crafting was an 'put all the items in this window and hit okay, pray for success', nothing deep about it. In FFXIV you have to actively think about each step in a multi-step process of crafting which gets exponentially more complex as you level, even if you don't have to worry about irrelevant things like weather.

    Well I think the weather does add depth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's deeper than ARR's. At any rate you're the first I can think of to actually claim that ARR's crafting is deeper than XI's. Like I've said a couple of times, I'm not an expert on either so I'm going by what people tell me. I'll chalk your opinion up as claiming that ARR's is deeper.

     

    Having to do the outpost quests when they're available is definitely more appealing to me than a system that lets you get them all instantly. Is that the case with ARR? I was under the impression you could go around unlocking aetherytes once you got your mount. You don't seem to assign any value to a game forcing you to take things slow and rewarding you for patience/consistency, so you might not appreciate that aspect of the outpost quests, but I do.

     

    Gear - how many different weapons can each class use in each game? I know that in XI you can technically use any weapon as any job, but you'd typically want to stick with the one that's rated highest for your job. But in ARR you're literally forced to use a certain weapon as each job, correct? That's more customizability, if that's the case.

    It's a bit silly to long for the 'depth' (whatever that means) of a game you apparently never played, or at least didn't ever use the systems you are making examples of, no?

    I have played it a little bit, but I started playing really late and it was with my friends who used to play a long time ago. They didn't really stick with it, so neither did I. And I'm not sure what you mean by "long for"... I'm simply asking this question because I'd like to know the truth about the games before I invest time into one or the other. I don't really want to get into FFXIV and spend a decent amount of time into it just to find out it's not much more than another themepark with a FF skin. How exactly is that silly?

  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424
    FFXIV is newer, and I've played FFXI to death.  If you haven't played either of them, from what I've played, I liked FFXI more.  FFXIV has more to do in the way of different things to do, but FFXI has more to do in the way of overall content.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Serenes
    I played Final Fantasy XI right after its first expansion pack, and I loved it it was my first MMO and I played for 6 years, I quit right after Wings of the Goddess was released and if it was back in 2004, I would say this game over any other game, but time has been a cruel mistress to ole FFXI it has been raped patch after patch and expansion pack after expansion pack.... Final Fantasy XIV would be a deeper buy to me at this point not because it is deeper but because all of its potential has not been squandered away.

    This is a good answer and I feel it jives pretty well with what I've heard about the game. From what I understand it used to be a lot more challenging to level up in XI. I know when I did play it (for like... 2 weeks or whatever), I was able to just afk in a party in a cave and got... WHM I think(?) up to like level 40. From what my friends were telling me, it used to take a LONG time to level up that high.

  • twruletwrule Member Posts: 1,251
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by twrule

    I don't see what's 'deeper' about FFXI or its world than FFXIV, especially since most people spend 90% of their game time in Abyssea it seems, leaving the rest of the world empty and desolate.

    The main reasons I will play XIV over XI:

    1) Systems/mechanics updated to modern standards.

    2) Much more casual-play accessible and with an *interesting* casual-play experience

    3) Most people are playing XIV right now, not XI - plain and simple. The worlds in beta (at least currently) feel full of life and activity, not desolate wastelands.

    Well I think you kind of answered your own question. If a game is more casual/accessible, it's usually not as deep.

     

    I'm not a FFXI expert but it seems like the job quests are harder, raising chocobos is harder, etc.

    So for you 'deep' means 'requires long sessions of play to make tangible progress'? I'm unclear.

    If it means 'harder' as in 'more challenging' then I disagree. The only thing that was 'hard' about FFXI's job quests was persuading a high level character to help you do it, because they were balanced to make it impossible for some jobs to do their quest when they were actually first allowed to do it at level 30, or else needing a full alliance of player help that was harder to come by than a single high level character.

    There was nothing hard about raising chocobos either - you just visit it once a day. Maybe you get a million attempts at the egg quest to get the rare egg. Again, not hard, just time consuming.

    When I said 'casual-accessible' I meant that I can feel I'm making tangible progress, preferably while doing interesting things, even if I only have an hour or two to play on most nights.

    Forgive me but I thought there was a lot regarding chocobo breeding. As in different colors and attributes?

    You get an egg from a quest, it randomly has a color and tendencies toward certain attributes, so most of the variation came from luck/time spent with the quest. After that you just have to visit it daily, sometimes giving it an item depending on its status. Could have been less complex, yes, but I wouldn't call it 'deep'.

    You seem to be willfully vague regarding this. I was under the impression that breeding specific colors with specific attributes was pretty difficult.

    Not sure what was vague about it. It is 'difficult' like winning the lottery is 'difficult', you have to get lucky with the egg and then tend it daily (which literally just means hitting a button that says 'play with the chocobo' most days and maybe giving it an item if it gets sick or something); I thought I was clear on that point. It wasn't my intention to provide a detailed overview of the system - I'm going off of memory from years ago. I would recommend researching it yourself if that is your concern. In any case, this should hardly be a large deciding factor in which game you choose, because it is a minor side-system in FFXI, not a big part of the game.

    Well when they do add a breeding system, then maybe it'll compete. But for now it doesn't seem to. But checking up on it daily (or often, I don't remember the exact mechanics of it) isn't simply "time consuming." It requires you to keep up on it as if it were a real creature. I'm not sure how that's not deeper than just doing another meaningless quest to get one.

    It is more 'interesting' than FFXIV in this regard atm, in that you must spend game-time caring for your mount, sure.

    Well it's kind of a nebulous term. Some similar synonyms: complex, difficult, interesting, etc.

    Well, in that case, I've already argued for why the systems you mentioned from FFXI are not necessarily more complex or difficult (where difficulty is divorced from how time-consuming it is). I don't think it offers too much that is Interesting anymore either, since xp grinding alliances in Abyssea dominates the game now from what I understand, though I suppose that would be mostly up to you. I don't see how any of this is in conflict with a 'casual play' accessible game (i.e. you can make reasonable progress in short sessions of play and not that many hours per week), as you claim it to, which is why our disagreement started.

    Well I think the weather does add depth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's deeper than ARR's. At any rate you're the first I can think of to actually claim that ARR's crafting is deeper than XI's. Like I've said a couple of times, I'm not an expert on either so I'm going by what people tell me. I'll chalk your opinion up as claiming that ARR's is deeper.

     I would rather not use your term since it seems to me that you have been equivocating with it. You can chalk me up as claiming that FFXIV's actual activity of crafting is more complex in that it requires more player input and strategizing within the action (though it does not rely on factors external to the synth itself, like weather, as FFXI does).

    Having to do the outpost quests when they're available is definitely more appealing to me than a system that lets you get them all instantly. Is that the case with ARR? I was under the impression you could go around unlocking aetherytes once you got your mount. You don't seem to assign any value to a game forcing you to take things slow and rewarding you for patience/consistency, so you might not appreciate that aspect of the outpost quests, but I do.

     You must visit each Aetheryte to unlock and they are all technically available to you from the get-go yes, though even once you get your mount, you can be knocked off of it and killed by mobs, so I wouldn't recommend attempting to unlock all the nodes until you are near the level cap (hardly an 'instant' process).

    FFXI's system went by a faction influence system - the 3 nations competed for control of different regions, and you could only access the outposts that were currently controlled by your region. This means, depending on the population distribution of your server and how active they are in different regions, you may rarely, if ever, get certain outposts, while others you are essentially guaranteed. Monsters were a 4th faction that could also win if no nation was active enough in a region. My understanding is that people rarely visit most regions now, so most of them are probably perpetually monster-controlled and inaccessible; but I don't know, I haven't played lately.

    No, I don't value being forced to take things slow. I don't need a game to tell me to be patient or mold me into being regular, I need it to be fun and interesting each step of the way. I'm fine with FFXIV's system that encourages me to explore the world to get all the aetherytes at my own pace. To each his own, I guess.

    Gear - how many different weapons can each class use in each game? I know that in XI you can technically use any weapon as any job, but you'd typically want to stick with the one that's rated highest for your job. But in ARR you're literally forced to use a certain weapon as each job, correct? That's more customizability, if that's the case.

    You cannot use any weapon as any job in FFXI - everything has its own different class restrictions, just like FFXIV, though some items have no restriction. Some classes in FFXIV can use multiple weapon types, but generally they are limited to 1 type. Many jobs in FFXI can use, say, 3-5 weapon types, but practically speaking they will only ever use 1-2, and like I said, there are a few particular items that many jobs go after. Not as substantial a difference as you seem to be thinking of, but technically yes, more 'customizability' in this regard in FFXI.

    I have played it a little bit, but I started playing really late and it was with my friends who used to play a long time ago. They didn't really stick with it, so neither did I. And I'm not sure what you mean by "long for"... I'm simply asking this question because I'd like to know the truth about the games before I invest time into one or the other. I don't really want to get into FFXIV and spend a decent amount of time into it just to find out it's not much more than another themepark with a FF skin. How exactly is that silly?

    By the way you've been phrasing things and responding to my post and others in this thread, and even the title, it seemed like you were hoping people would convince you to go with FFXI over FFXIV, and on this ambiguous understanding of it having more 'depth'. If you go into FFXIV ARR while keeping an eye out for 'another themepark with an FF skin', and/or if you don't like your games being accessible to casual players, you're not going to find it enjoyable.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091

    Yeah I dunno, most of what you said makes it seem like XI is either at least or more interesting/deep than ARR. Except for the crafting, which I still don't really get how it works in ARR so I'm not sure on that one. 

     

    At any rate, I already pre-ordered the CE so I'm still gonna play ARR when it comes out, and judging by the replies here I probably won't play XI either way. It sounds like it was great back in it's hay day, but now not so much.

  • sudosudo Member UncommonPosts: 697
    Originally posted by Holophonist

     It sounds like it was great back in it's hay day, but now not so much.

    Pretty much this, sadly.

    "Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
    Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
    Hans Margolius

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by sudo
    Originally posted by Holophonist

     It sounds like it was great back in it's hay day, but now not so much.

    Pretty much this, sadly.

    That's how everything goes. You don't see people raving about how great Super Mario World 64 still is. You just hear them say how great it was. Same thing with WoW, it was great back in the hay day but as time goes on everything loses that shine. Just the way things go.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member RarePosts: 3,654

    I played FFXI for over 5 years.

    The game as it was is dead.

    This new FFXI is nothing but a shadow of its former self, and any sort of sandbox you'd imagine is gone.

    Rush to level 99 in mere hours, spend a long time skilling up, then get on the gear treadmill, that is FFXI now.

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