Originally posted by Theocritus Yes you can group in those games but its kinda like having 5 people to screw in a light bulb......
ding ding, this is the problem, outside of raiding and dungeons it becomes counter productive to group up, I don't belive grouping should be forced, It should however be strongly encouraged.
The message is clear. Grouping needs to be encouraged. It takes more time and effort. It has more risk and dangers. It needs to be superior method of progressing in the game. Gear should be better / more frequent. Exp / skill gains should be quicker, etc.
But soloing should be there for those who want it.
A healthy medium between solo content availability and group content viability.
I thought EQN was a sandbox?
Do you think EVE developers encourage grouping through loot and XP or do they encourage it differently?
It makes me wonder if EQN will get turned into WOW during beta if even the supporters are treating it like another themepark.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
Well, I can't really think of another way to force grouping without making the mobs so tough that trying to solo them would mean certain death.
So fill the world with hard to kill elite mobs and corral the soloists inside the cities until they finally bend to the groupers demands.
The answer is simple.
You don't try to force people to group all the time.
But I thought soloing was the Deviljuice...
If a game launched in which it required people to group to solo, then I highly suspect most people would ragequit. It would be the biggest shit storm the internet has ever seen.
Well, if mobs are easily soloable, then why the heck would I want to stand around and wait for for a group when I can just go solo and level faster? Not to mention that if it's a quest centric game, not everyone would be on the same quest.
I can chat with people in my guild and friends without being in a group.
Have you ever played a sandbox game before?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
Well, I can't really think of another way to force grouping without making the mobs so tough that trying to solo them would mean certain death.
So fill the world with hard to kill elite mobs and corral the soloists inside the cities until they finally bend to the groupers demands.
The answer is simple.
You don't try to force people to group all the time.
But I thought soloing was the Deviljuice...
If a game launched in which it required people to group to solo, then I highly suspect most people would ragequit. It would be the biggest shit storm the internet has ever seen.
Well, if mobs are easily soloable, then why the heck would I want to stand around and wait for for a group when I can just go solo and level faster? Not to mention that if it's a quest centric game, not everyone would be on the same quest.
I can chat with people in my guild and friends without being in a group.
Because going in a group is faster.
Also, you make events that require multiple players to take part in to encourage grouping. Not everything needs to force grouping.
EDIT: Actually they fucked up and removed leveling didn't they. Yah idk wtf you are going to do in this game, but we better not be required to hold hands 100% of the time.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
Well, I can't really think of another way to force grouping without making the mobs so tough that trying to solo them would mean certain death.
So fill the world with hard to kill elite mobs and corral the soloists inside the cities until they finally bend to the groupers demands.
The answer is simple.
You don't try to force people to group all the time.
But I thought soloing was the Deviljuice...
If a game launched in which it required people to group to solo, then I highly suspect most people would ragequit. It would be the biggest shit storm the internet has ever seen.
Well, if mobs are easily soloable, then why the heck would I want to stand around and wait for for a group when I can just go solo and level faster? Not to mention that if it's a quest centric game, not everyone would be on the same quest.
I can chat with people in my guild and friends without being in a group.
Have you ever played a sandbox game before?
Nope. Pretty hard to find one that isn't Eve or some FF PVP game.
The problem is that most ppl don't want to play MMO's. They want single player game with a leader bord on the end, so they can show their epeeen. They don't want to be bothered by other ppl and their needs. Who cares if that dude next to them is a person or NPC with some ok AI. As long as it helps them to get the ultimate sword of the doomslayer with über stats, so they can tell their mom and frend (or NPC's) how good they are and that they deserve some attention and pat on their heads.
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
This is a very rude title and crass post.
To turn the table, does the MMO offers ANY incentives to group with? If the game allows solo from 1 to max level with ease and little difficulty, then soloing has better incentive? Then when players want to try epic dungeons, everyone now needs to group. Then? PUG? Dungeon queue? All dps zerk? Will one member takes all the burden to lead the team, but has to expect to be flamed when the team fails?
Good guilds are hard to come by. They will be well-established before the MMO starts beta with their selected members, and recruitments are elitist minded. Random guilds randomly shout in chat to recruit, only to have it fall apart due to lack of leadership, drama queens, guild leader cheating the guild's assets etc. Then players will now be guildhoppers, or avoid guilds totally.
There is a lot of reasons for unwillingly/unable to find groups. Force grouping has faded in casual MMOs, but it is rude to point fingers at everyone that reads your post as a "force grouping maniac".
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by DistopiaOriginally posted by Foomerang
There is definitely that. Ive been a part of those types of game communities. I think partof it may be also that there is just so much to choose from there is no comiseration anymore haha. People struggled through broken mmos together because it was the best it could get. Now theres so many choices, we can hop over to a never ending stream games. That is probably a big part of it as well. One I didn't think to mention as it does have some numerical evidence, F2P consistently seems to go up and down on a steady basis, mostly around content updates. OR it could just mean there's a crap ton of us floating from game to game hoping to find the one. Yeah I have a personal checklist of features I look for in an mmo. But sometimes I feel that list wont matter if I find a good group of gamers to play the same game with. Maybe my list isnt so much the features themselves but the type of gamers they hopefully will attract.My list of likes doesn't matter as much as enjoying the game with people I like. The drag is that people move onto other games and the guilds never last. Even when I really like a game having that happen really takes my motivation to play out of the game. This happened when my Rift guild dissolved. I sort of just stopped playing for a while.
That sort of cool thing where you click with a few other people and get in the same gaming groove is pretty rare. You gotta grab it when the opportunity arises.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
Well, I can't really think of another way to force grouping without making the mobs so tough that trying to solo them would mean certain death.
So fill the world with hard to kill elite mobs and corral the soloists inside the cities until they finally bend to the groupers demands.
The answer is simple.
You don't try to force people to group all the time.
But I thought soloing was the Deviljuice...
If a game launched in which it required people to group to solo, then I highly suspect most people would ragequit. It would be the biggest shit storm the internet has ever seen.
Well, if mobs are easily soloable, then why the heck would I want to stand around and wait for for a group when I can just go solo and level faster? Not to mention that if it's a quest centric game, not everyone would be on the same quest.
I can chat with people in my guild and friends without being in a group.
there is no levelling .
I can assure you that this game will be solo friendly . But if you come across a monster you cant beat you might need a friend . if 2 of you cant take it down then you need 3 or more .
I guess the harder monsters will drop better loot .
The problem is that most ppl don't want to play MMO's. They want single player game with a leader bord on the end, so they can show their epeeen. They don't want to be bothered by other ppl and their needs. Who cares if that dude next to them is a person or NPC with some ok AI. As long as it helps them to get the ultimate sword of the doomslayer with über stats, so they can tell their mom and frend (or NPC's) how good they are and that they deserve some attention and pat on their heads.
You hit the nail on the head .
The #1 reason to play MMO is to stand in town posing so everyone can look at your gear and drool .
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
I agree with you that in most games you can group with others to do stuff if you want. Problem is for the most part it's packed into dungeons which do not constitute a very large portion of the game. GW2 allows for more overworld grouping and I like how they do it honestly.
You must have forced grouping at some point. Dungeons are forced grouping, some events in GW2 are forced grouping. The question is how much and where should the forced grouping be? IMO I think 50/50 is a good split, obviously heh. I don't think overworld should all be soloable because it honestly makes the game seem easy. Knowing there are dangerous places is good for a world. I think there should be something for everyone and unfortunately for the most part it's for soloers most of the time.
"Another benefit of the EverQuest Paradox and probably the most important thing for online games is the sense of community and social bonds that resulted from an unforgiving virtual world where progress is hard won and ever-increasing challenge is a constant — for me this is the true genius and legacy of EverQuest. Banding together to face a common enemy has long been part of the human experience from our days as hunter gathers to today’s modern civilization. As humans we usually don’t seek out adversity — it finds us. I wager most of us who played online games didn’t seek out community initially but now we’ve come to treasure and value it. There is nothing like that feeling of solidarity and community that people feel when they face a common enemy as recent world events such as disasters and conflicts have shown."
This thread is based on a strawman argument. Let me inform the many of you that obviously never played EQ: It was more viable to solo to the level cap in EQ, than it is to group to the level cap in WoW. If EQ is "forced grouping," than WoW is "forced soloing."
The theme park model, where solo grinding to the level cap encompasses 90%+ of the content, has been done to death. There is a growing segment of gamers that don't want to soloquest/grind to the endgame; where they spend the rest of their effort on literally one zone. WoW has even taken the challenge out of the one zone for everyone. Now you have to play that zone in "hardmode."
This is why the average MMO gamer tends to bounce from WoW, to a new release, back to WoW again. After a game company finally does create something the player base blows through in a couple months, no one has the patience to sit around for more content. So the go back to WoW, with more frequent patches and customer service.
It's astounding to me that people can't make the connection between mass solo content and gamer burn out. The only thing in WoW that requires you to even talk to anyone is some of the raiding. However, you can experience that content via dungeon finder anyway; you just don't get the different colored armor.
No one is going to out do WoW at their own game. The best you can hope to do is sell a bunch of copies of an MMO and keep people entertained for a few months. Eventually the fact that it has x4 the funding will kill any new MMO that only offers a different flavor of WoW.
I would really hate to see EQN become a slightly novel version of a two month WoW distraction.
To the OP I really need to disagree about this whole "fake friends" thing and that forced grouping doesn't make you have a real community or friends... The people I played Final Fantasy 11 with are still friends of mine today some 8 - 9 years or so later... "Forced" grouping as you call it is a social construct designed to make people work together toward a common goal rather than running off and doing their own thing. Most of these people would be better off playing single player RPG's as is and then talking to "friends" in raptr, steam or whatever other social media they choose to use about the game. MMO's have lost their sense of community I've seen the downward spiral first hand given my rather long history with these games. Christ even Lineage 2 was more "social" than modern mmorpgs have become.
The thing is you have no real "option" for group content other than dungeons and raids which become rather lackadaisical in nature after a certain point in the "WoW" or casual generation of these games. I can kill something easy enough solo that while a "group" to kill it may be faster it isn't worth the cut down in experience most games actually seem to push when you are in a group. You have no proper social constructs to crafting in most games and this immense focus on just combat oriented things.
You want to have SWG as an example here? There were so many non combat oriented things you could do that promoted communication and that is the key to things. You have no need for socializing at all now and most people will choose not to because they are becoming either anti social or they are social and not in a game world, but instead posting when they are taking a dump on twitter.
The overall focus is on instant gratification, end game that is easy to reach, no real focus on the "journey" to get to end game anymore and an encouragement for solo play in most mmorpgs now and that is counter intuitive to the original design constructs of the genre which while they used to be soloable to an extent also had more longevity, difficulty to get to end game, and weren't all about instant gratification... Even if i was playing lazily and sloppily I could hit level cap in WoW in maybe 2 months tops and that is a problem.
It really is the genre and not the player in a good deal of respects that is a problem. Games have gotten to this point where the only focus is combat and a poorly represented story (most of the time you need to read everything and the writing is often rubbish that doesn't catch anyone's interest really). You are streamlining things more and more and losing complexities that cause social interactions all that much more and then just sit back and wonder. SWG was successful until they started to try and pander to this WoW centric style crowd and made the game to easy and ended up ruining crafting and the complexity/difficulty involved in properly becoming a bounty hunter or jedi.
These companies are trying to chase WoW's numbers instead of carving out their own niche with a dedicated player base that will give them a solid income for years to come and that is why they are "failing" left and right for the most part. The overall structure of these games is getting weaker, less complicated, and far more pandering to try and "attract" a mass market without realizing that that mass market will probably never move on from WoW
Originally posted by faxnadu agree with OP 100% freedom of choise is the key.
I agree that choice is good, but you need to make content that isn't just end game or isn't just dungeons or raids that actually encourage group play when you can lazy solo a game in 2 months max there is a LARGE issue
I really gotta say that it's amusing when at least half the people demanding other people be forced to do something they don't want to do non-stop are from the so called free states of the world.
If people choose to solo it is their choice, if people choose to group it is their choice, it should be a organic/dynamic thing and only the shittiest of games have you forced into one or the other and anyone demanding one or the other be enforced isn't really a gamer, he/she is just an entitled person that likes games and who demands others play by his/her style and not their own.
I really gotta say that it's amusing when at least half the people demanding other people be forced to do something they don't want to do non-stop are from the so called free states of the world.
Originally posted by ste2000
Problem with recent MMO is not only that Groups are not incentivated, but almost discouraged, since it is most profitable doing everything solo.
I find it funny that so many want forced grouping because they are unwilling and want the game to fix their personal problems.
I don't want to help my friends move, especially if they live upstairs! But guess what? I do because they are my friends and I get free drinks afterwards.
So many seem very selfish in that they want to be the "hero" and race to the end for the magical carrot, yet complain when they get to the end and don't have anyone to play with.
Slow the heck down, join a guild, make some friends. Show some effort.
People act like they will die if they aren't max level in a week or don't finish a dungeon before everyone else...
Enjoy the adventure and people you meet along the way.
If any of YOU can't personally take the time to meet others, don't suggest that everyone be forced into a situation to do so.
I find it very hard to believe that people part of good guilds and that made friends in games are the same ones complaining about the solo/group issue.
I soloed almost all the way in vanilla WoW. Took a while and I had a blast. I was also in a guild the entire time and by the time I caught up with everyone, I knew them well enough through chat/voice to play with them just the same as if I'd been standing next to them the entire time as I leveled. When it was time to raid, we all knew our characters well enough and were comfortable talking (taking orders) to get it done.
We as individuals have to take the time to meet others, the game shouldn't throw us together without any other option. What if I don't like you? Too bad? If I want to get over that hill, you are my only hope? Nah, I'll find someone I actually want to be with when I get on the other side, sorry.
I've watched people play the most solo friendly games ever (tetris, solitaire, candy crush) and still been entertained. Then there are those that won't even let you look over their shoulder or accept advice when they are stuck.
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
I agree I don't want anything "forced" in my sandbox MMORPG. But a MMORPG should make me "want" to do certain things but needs to feel naturally.
Sure in each and every MMO regardless themepark, ezmode or what ever it's possible to group and have done so in many of the MMO's I have played but there comes a time where I gotten tired of these instant groups to enter with hardly no speak and just made for one goal without actually having fun together. Sorry to only accomplish some end quest with a group of people you don't even speak with isn't my type of fun group, not saying everyone needs to talk all the time, but a simple "hello" seems already out of the question. Regardless that I try.
Don't get me wrong I have grouped with some very nice players but if I need to place it into % I'd say it's about 90% of the none-speaking, kthxbey players and about 10% that actually grouped to do different things together or even talk ingame within the group.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
Well, I can't really think of another way to force grouping without making the mobs so tough that trying to solo them would mean certain death.
So fill the world with hard to kill elite mobs and corral the soloists inside the cities until they finally bend to the groupers demands.
The answer is simple.
You don't try to force people to group all the time.
But I thought soloing was the Deviljuice...
If a game launched in which it required people to group to solo, then I highly suspect most people would ragequit. It would be the biggest shit storm the internet has ever seen.
Well, if mobs are easily soloable, then why the heck would I want to stand around and wait for for a group when I can just go solo and level faster? Not to mention that if it's a quest centric game, not everyone would be on the same quest.
I can chat with people in my guild and friends without being in a group.
Have you ever played a sandbox game before?
Nope. Pretty hard to find one that isn't Eve or some FF PVP game.
Fair enough.
FFA pvp is a themepark trait, not a sandbox trait through. Sandboxes or virtual worlds are about immersion. Sandboxes or virtual worlds require you to risk your own enjoyment if your goal is to ruin others.
Themeparks allow you to grief others. Griefing is not possible without the help and assistance of the developers.
Virtual worlds dont have towns that you can murder all the inhabitants, and still have a functional town.
Themeparks let you spawn camp newbs outside city hall literally preventing people from playing.
Themepark pvp and ffa pvp is one in the same.
Id like virtual world pvp similar to eve. It's the fairest, its the most realistic, and the worst abusers are subject to the community instead of protected by the devs.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I ride trains all the time and I dont talk to anyone in them or require to talk to ride the train.
Maybe you should ask yourself if MMO are for you then. A lot of people would be better off playing single player games.
Have you ever ridden the subway in NY?
The T in Boston?
The only time anyone really talks is to say "Help!" or "What you looking at?" or "Please stop peeing on me!"
They are all pretty much silent encounters unless you boarded with friends. Then it's you and them whispering...
Having options such as soloing and grouping are needed in an MMO. While soloing you may just run into someone who needs help, you form a group. Then someone else joins...
Socializing comes down to the player, not the mechanic. I have been in many groups in early EQ where we would be grouped for hours and the only words uttered were "Pulling" "Brb" "Afk 1min" or "OOM Meding" other than that complete silence.
afew problems talking like your subway rides....are they fun to you, very much doubt so, the ride itself is just to get you to where you want to go, it would be much more fun if you could figure to talk to others on the same ride - which any real adult should be able to, if you cant talk to any other adults on a train, there really is a huge problem.
that said am not really against solo content in MMOs, I miss the connection between solo content and group/small group content, as it used to be in EQ2 - afew months after release, the solo part were ok friendly but certainly better to go in group, it were way better xp gain and group area´s always had a purpose through long quests, which would be hard if you didnt have a good group/guild.... ofc alot on this site would most likely call EQ2, at release, for forced grouping, atleast at around 45+. And SOE all through the lifetime of EQ2 have made it slowly more and more solo friendly, to where it is today where almost everything in the open world is solo content and all quest updates are in instances, so you aint depended on other people to be effecient.
guilds loosing its purpose outside raid hours, with exception of that 1 or 2 l33t groups that blow up all the instances everyday, and dont understand everyone aint doing it, cause that is what is needed to get geared for raids - Ive never minded speed runs, but when speed runs become the norm, then it is just boring again, and if an instance is completely new to you, it is simply annoying having people rush on you...then again I guess this is where people asking for solo versions of group instances comes from.
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
Comments
I thought EQN was a sandbox?
Do you think EVE developers encourage grouping through loot and XP or do they encourage it differently?
It makes me wonder if EQN will get turned into WOW during beta if even the supporters are treating it like another themepark.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Have you ever played a sandbox game before?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Because going in a group is faster.
Also, you make events that require multiple players to take part in to encourage grouping. Not everything needs to force grouping.
EDIT: Actually they fucked up and removed leveling didn't they. Yah idk wtf you are going to do in this game, but we better not be required to hold hands 100% of the time.
Nope. Pretty hard to find one that isn't Eve or some FF PVP game.
The problem is that most ppl don't want to play MMO's. They want single player game with a leader bord on the end, so they can show their epeeen. They don't want to be bothered by other ppl and their needs. Who cares if that dude next to them is a person or NPC with some ok AI. As long as it helps them to get the ultimate sword of the doomslayer with über stats, so they can tell their mom and frend (or NPC's) how good they are and that they deserve some attention and pat on their heads.
This is a very rude title and crass post.
To turn the table, does the MMO offers ANY incentives to group with? If the game allows solo from 1 to max level with ease and little difficulty, then soloing has better incentive? Then when players want to try epic dungeons, everyone now needs to group. Then? PUG? Dungeon queue? All dps zerk? Will one member takes all the burden to lead the team, but has to expect to be flamed when the team fails?
Good guilds are hard to come by. They will be well-established before the MMO starts beta with their selected members, and recruitments are elitist minded. Random guilds randomly shout in chat to recruit, only to have it fall apart due to lack of leadership, drama queens, guild leader cheating the guild's assets etc. Then players will now be guildhoppers, or avoid guilds totally.
There is a lot of reasons for unwillingly/unable to find groups. Force grouping has faded in casual MMOs, but it is rude to point fingers at everyone that reads your post as a "force grouping maniac".
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
That is probably a big part of it as well. One I didn't think to mention as it does have some numerical evidence, F2P consistently seems to go up and down on a steady basis, mostly around content updates. OR it could just mean there's a crap ton of us floating from game to game hoping to find the one.
Yeah I have a personal checklist of features I look for in an mmo. But sometimes I feel that list wont matter if I find a good group of gamers to play the same game with. Maybe my list isnt so much the features themselves but the type of gamers they hopefully will attract.
My list of likes doesn't matter as much as enjoying the game with people I like. The drag is that people move onto other games and the guilds never last. Even when I really like a game having that happen really takes my motivation to play out of the game. This happened when my Rift guild dissolved. I sort of just stopped playing for a while.
That sort of cool thing where you click with a few other people and get in the same gaming groove is pretty rare. You gotta grab it when the opportunity arises.
I agree.
there is no levelling .
I can assure you that this game will be solo friendly . But if you come across a monster you cant beat you might need a friend . if 2 of you cant take it down then you need 3 or more .
I guess the harder monsters will drop better loot .
You hit the nail on the head .
The #1 reason to play MMO is to stand in town posing so everyone can look at your gear and drool .
What can I say other than "I agree."
I agree with you that in most games you can group with others to do stuff if you want. Problem is for the most part it's packed into dungeons which do not constitute a very large portion of the game. GW2 allows for more overworld grouping and I like how they do it honestly.
You must have forced grouping at some point. Dungeons are forced grouping, some events in GW2 are forced grouping. The question is how much and where should the forced grouping be? IMO I think 50/50 is a good split, obviously heh. I don't think overworld should all be soloable because it honestly makes the game seem easy. Knowing there are dangerous places is good for a world. I think there should be something for everyone and unfortunately for the most part it's for soloers most of the time.
Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
"Another benefit of the EverQuest Paradox and probably the most important thing for online games is the sense of community and social bonds that resulted from an unforgiving virtual world where progress is hard won and ever-increasing challenge is a constant — for me this is the true genius and legacy of EverQuest. Banding together to face a common enemy has long been part of the human experience from our days as hunter gathers to today’s modern civilization. As humans we usually don’t seek out adversity — it finds us. I wager most of us who played online games didn’t seek out community initially but now we’ve come to treasure and value it. There is nothing like that feeling of solidarity and community that people feel when they face a common enemy as recent world events such as disasters and conflicts have shown."
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/#7cb6
Do some reading, learn something of a bygone mmo era.
This thread is based on a strawman argument. Let me inform the many of you that obviously never played EQ: It was more viable to solo to the level cap in EQ, than it is to group to the level cap in WoW. If EQ is "forced grouping," than WoW is "forced soloing."
The theme park model, where solo grinding to the level cap encompasses 90%+ of the content, has been done to death. There is a growing segment of gamers that don't want to soloquest/grind to the endgame; where they spend the rest of their effort on literally one zone. WoW has even taken the challenge out of the one zone for everyone. Now you have to play that zone in "hardmode."
This is why the average MMO gamer tends to bounce from WoW, to a new release, back to WoW again. After a game company finally does create something the player base blows through in a couple months, no one has the patience to sit around for more content. So the go back to WoW, with more frequent patches and customer service.
It's astounding to me that people can't make the connection between mass solo content and gamer burn out. The only thing in WoW that requires you to even talk to anyone is some of the raiding. However, you can experience that content via dungeon finder anyway; you just don't get the different colored armor.
No one is going to out do WoW at their own game. The best you can hope to do is sell a bunch of copies of an MMO and keep people entertained for a few months. Eventually the fact that it has x4 the funding will kill any new MMO that only offers a different flavor of WoW.
I would really hate to see EQN become a slightly novel version of a two month WoW distraction.
To the OP I really need to disagree about this whole "fake friends" thing and that forced grouping doesn't make you have a real community or friends... The people I played Final Fantasy 11 with are still friends of mine today some 8 - 9 years or so later... "Forced" grouping as you call it is a social construct designed to make people work together toward a common goal rather than running off and doing their own thing. Most of these people would be better off playing single player RPG's as is and then talking to "friends" in raptr, steam or whatever other social media they choose to use about the game. MMO's have lost their sense of community I've seen the downward spiral first hand given my rather long history with these games. Christ even Lineage 2 was more "social" than modern mmorpgs have become.
The thing is you have no real "option" for group content other than dungeons and raids which become rather lackadaisical in nature after a certain point in the "WoW" or casual generation of these games. I can kill something easy enough solo that while a "group" to kill it may be faster it isn't worth the cut down in experience most games actually seem to push when you are in a group. You have no proper social constructs to crafting in most games and this immense focus on just combat oriented things.
You want to have SWG as an example here? There were so many non combat oriented things you could do that promoted communication and that is the key to things. You have no need for socializing at all now and most people will choose not to because they are becoming either anti social or they are social and not in a game world, but instead posting when they are taking a dump on twitter.
The overall focus is on instant gratification, end game that is easy to reach, no real focus on the "journey" to get to end game anymore and an encouragement for solo play in most mmorpgs now and that is counter intuitive to the original design constructs of the genre which while they used to be soloable to an extent also had more longevity, difficulty to get to end game, and weren't all about instant gratification... Even if i was playing lazily and sloppily I could hit level cap in WoW in maybe 2 months tops and that is a problem.
It really is the genre and not the player in a good deal of respects that is a problem. Games have gotten to this point where the only focus is combat and a poorly represented story (most of the time you need to read everything and the writing is often rubbish that doesn't catch anyone's interest really). You are streamlining things more and more and losing complexities that cause social interactions all that much more and then just sit back and wonder. SWG was successful until they started to try and pander to this WoW centric style crowd and made the game to easy and ended up ruining crafting and the complexity/difficulty involved in properly becoming a bounty hunter or jedi.
These companies are trying to chase WoW's numbers instead of carving out their own niche with a dedicated player base that will give them a solid income for years to come and that is why they are "failing" left and right for the most part. The overall structure of these games is getting weaker, less complicated, and far more pandering to try and "attract" a mass market without realizing that that mass market will probably never move on from WoW
I agree that choice is good, but you need to make content that isn't just end game or isn't just dungeons or raids that actually encourage group play when you can lazy solo a game in 2 months max there is a LARGE issue
I really gotta say that it's amusing when at least half the people demanding other people be forced to do something they don't want to do non-stop are from the so called free states of the world.
If people choose to solo it is their choice, if people choose to group it is their choice, it should be a organic/dynamic thing and only the shittiest of games have you forced into one or the other and anyone demanding one or the other be enforced isn't really a gamer, he/she is just an entitled person that likes games and who demands others play by his/her style and not their own.
Ok let's put things straight.
NOBODY likes being forced to do anything, that includes group in a MMO.
Group should be "incentivated" not "forced".
Problem with recent MMO is not only that Groups are not incentivated, but almost discouraged, since it is most profitable doing everything solo.
More like more efficient but for example in Firefall grouping is quite important without being forced
.
I find it funny that so many want forced grouping because they are unwilling and want the game to fix their personal problems.
I don't want to help my friends move, especially if they live upstairs! But guess what? I do because they are my friends and I get free drinks afterwards.
So many seem very selfish in that they want to be the "hero" and race to the end for the magical carrot, yet complain when they get to the end and don't have anyone to play with.
Slow the heck down, join a guild, make some friends. Show some effort.
People act like they will die if they aren't max level in a week or don't finish a dungeon before everyone else...
Enjoy the adventure and people you meet along the way.
If any of YOU can't personally take the time to meet others, don't suggest that everyone be forced into a situation to do so.
I find it very hard to believe that people part of good guilds and that made friends in games are the same ones complaining about the solo/group issue.
I soloed almost all the way in vanilla WoW. Took a while and I had a blast. I was also in a guild the entire time and by the time I caught up with everyone, I knew them well enough through chat/voice to play with them just the same as if I'd been standing next to them the entire time as I leveled. When it was time to raid, we all knew our characters well enough and were comfortable talking (taking orders) to get it done.
We as individuals have to take the time to meet others, the game shouldn't throw us together without any other option. What if I don't like you? Too bad? If I want to get over that hill, you are my only hope? Nah, I'll find someone I actually want to be with when I get on the other side, sorry.
I've watched people play the most solo friendly games ever (tetris, solitaire, candy crush) and still been entertained. Then there are those that won't even let you look over their shoulder or accept advice when they are stuck.
Which one are you?
I agree I don't want anything "forced" in my sandbox MMORPG. But a MMORPG should make me "want" to do certain things but needs to feel naturally.
Sure in each and every MMO regardless themepark, ezmode or what ever it's possible to group and have done so in many of the MMO's I have played but there comes a time where I gotten tired of these instant groups to enter with hardly no speak and just made for one goal without actually having fun together. Sorry to only accomplish some end quest with a group of people you don't even speak with isn't my type of fun group, not saying everyone needs to talk all the time, but a simple "hello" seems already out of the question. Regardless that I try.
Don't get me wrong I have grouped with some very nice players but if I need to place it into % I'd say it's about 90% of the none-speaking, kthxbey players and about 10% that actually grouped to do different things together or even talk ingame within the group.
Fair enough.
FFA pvp is a themepark trait, not a sandbox trait through. Sandboxes or virtual worlds are about immersion. Sandboxes or virtual worlds require you to risk your own enjoyment if your goal is to ruin others.
Themeparks allow you to grief others. Griefing is not possible without the help and assistance of the developers.
Virtual worlds dont have towns that you can murder all the inhabitants, and still have a functional town.
Themeparks let you spawn camp newbs outside city hall literally preventing people from playing.
Themepark pvp and ffa pvp is one in the same.
Id like virtual world pvp similar to eve. It's the fairest, its the most realistic, and the worst abusers are subject to the community instead of protected by the devs.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
afew problems talking like your subway rides....are they fun to you, very much doubt so, the ride itself is just to get you to where you want to go, it would be much more fun if you could figure to talk to others on the same ride - which any real adult should be able to, if you cant talk to any other adults on a train, there really is a huge problem.
that said am not really against solo content in MMOs, I miss the connection between solo content and group/small group content, as it used to be in EQ2 - afew months after release, the solo part were ok friendly but certainly better to go in group, it were way better xp gain and group area´s always had a purpose through long quests, which would be hard if you didnt have a good group/guild.... ofc alot on this site would most likely call EQ2, at release, for forced grouping, atleast at around 45+. And SOE all through the lifetime of EQ2 have made it slowly more and more solo friendly, to where it is today where almost everything in the open world is solo content and all quest updates are in instances, so you aint depended on other people to be effecient.
guilds loosing its purpose outside raid hours, with exception of that 1 or 2 l33t groups that blow up all the instances everyday, and dont understand everyone aint doing it, cause that is what is needed to get geared for raids - Ive never minded speed runs, but when speed runs become the norm, then it is just boring again, and if an instance is completely new to you, it is simply annoying having people rush on you...then again I guess this is where people asking for solo versions of group instances comes from.
Ya its called a "Single Player Game" Look it up
Yeah you tell them OP
+1
Especialy mmos that rely heavily on trinity combat are ones that force grouping
"you need a party that consists of these classes before you can enter"