One of my concerns, at least so far, with this new AI is that mobs in groups don't coordinate. So each mob is doing its own thing, this in turn makes it nearly impossible for players to coordinate and we end up with another "Every Man For Himself" combat system.
Err, what? Nonsense. The AI currently studied in research is leaps and bounds ahead of what is needed here. There are plenty of algorithms for this sort of thing out there at this point. The reason you are not seeing decent AI in MMO's is because nobody bothers. That's it.
Exactly, I really don't find what SOE is proposing to do with AI in EQNext to be outlandish at all. Especially since they can handle all the calculation on their side.
Those of you that haven't done it yet, go watch the storybricks videos on youtube get a very basic, and outdated idea of what SOE is working with here.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 I'm more concerned about creating too good of an AI and then we have a real life SKYNET on our hands...
Haha, that won't happen for a good while my friend.
Originally posted by Rusque
Agreed. Here's a quote:
"To some degree. But, by intelligent, what we really mean, generally speaking, is that the more intelligent an NPC is, the more likely they are to choose the most appropriate or more appropriate actions at any given time. So, the smarter Orc would choose to do some of the more optimal options whereas a dumb Orc might not. They may make mistakes and poor choices."
So the AI isn't going to be reacting and learning like people might be expecting. They will have a list of scripted options with more inclination to pick a good option depending on "smartness".
i.e.:
Orcs have random smartness from 1-10
Their scripted options include the following:
1. Attack closest target.
2. Attack largest sized target.
3. Attack lowest health target.
4. Attack target doing the most damage.
5. Interrupt ability and CC target.
So a group of 4 orcs will have variable "smartness" ratings, the dumb ones will be 90% likely to pick from scripts 1 & 2, the average ones will have a bell curve with script #3 being the most common picked. And the really smart ones will do 4 & 5 most of the time.
Spot on.
And what will this do? Turn group content into a ping pong event of each individual mob attacking it's own target causing every member of the party to run around like headless chickens, ignoring each other and only focusing on themselves, aiming to keep themselves alive.
That is poor game design.
No. The very first thing you learn in pvp is.. learn to assist. It's basic.. and it can be done with a script like that.. Like do what your leader says, or attack the target your leader promotes. There have to be a good reason to do otherwise.. like interupting.
PvP and group pvp is rather simple. Really it is. And you can do very well a priority order list. But what is much more important, and what can be done with a sophisticated AI, is a chain of command, and different AI decisions for every layer.
Like.. the commander(a rather clever Ork... hell he is the commander, he should be one of the more clever ones) calls targets, commands orders. And now his ork squads decide within their priority list. Most of them will exactly do what the commander said.. some maybe are either to stupid or have some other reasons.
And with that kind of priority list for every mob, and with different command structures you will get a reasonable result.
Example: Squad of orks. 1 Commander. 4 Orks.
Commander cry: Attack the Healer
Ork 1: Loyal, disciplined, clever... follows immediately the command and runs to the healer.
Ork 2: Loyal, disciplined, not so clever... looks around first. Recognize Ork 1 is running to a target and follows him shortly after.
Ork 3: not disciplined. But clever. Runs to the mage.
Ork 4: Not disciplint. Not clever. Attacks the tank.
Ok.. this is of course a example a little bit to much out of the ordinary.. but i guess you get what i wanted to say. Important is, that any does have his own orders and agendas. Therefor not always everyone runs like one person, and that just looks, and actually is more realistic.
As i already said. Combat is not rocket science. For combat really advanced AI is not necessary. The problem is in almost all games in the past.. the AI isn't even worth mentioning. It is of course a performance issue to, if you actually have different Orders for every mob, instead of one order for all mobs. And that is really the simpliest kind of AI possible, but it is a whole lot more that what we have seen since three decades. Although, there are some exceptions... just play a session Z(old RTS game).. you will be surprised.
I will be satisfied if an orc sees carebear killing pve mobs and waits until he is almost dead runs up ganks him and then teabags before laughing and walking off.
No matter how they choose to implement AI, I'd hope they attempt to do a couple of basic things. First a short list with explanations of AI that governs creatures (individually and as groups) in a fight.
Combat AI -- Self-preservation. When in combat, a creature needs to act appropriately to preserve its own life. Why would any creature gate a short distance away and come back to the fight? Maybe it heals itself or a friend before returning. Unless they bring substantive new resources to the fight, it's just the same as standing and waiting to die. What about a flee until help is found? Or just run until the it loses the PCs? Creatures in a fight need to have reasonable reactions other than fight to the d/eath.
Combat AI -- Racial distinction. Orcs and goblins may act nearly identically, but gnolls and aviaks and frogloks should really to act differently, both individually and in groups. The creatures need to be aware and utilize their special abilities. Maybe frogloks will stay underwater, knowing players can't breath underwater. Maybe aviaks rely on their superior movement speed to fight in a hit-and-run manner.
Combat AI -- Specialization utilization. Mobs, particularly when fighting as a group, need to act like a group. Creatures need to use their individual specialties and abilities intelligently (and far more frequently than in previous games). If a fighter creature has a special slash attack and a slam attack, it should know to use the slam attack to move its opponent back (or knock it down), and follow up with its special slash attack.
Next, there are some things that I think need to happen with the world AI. From everything I heard, the emergent AI technology is primarily aimed at this aspect, although I would hope that combat and world AIs would both benefit from the EAI, and both would adapt to changing circumstances. Here's a list of things that I'd like to see.
World AI -- Racial distinction. The races desires need to be significantly different. Orcs and goblins may both want to live near a cave, but orcs might also want a supply of fresh water, so they would reject a site that goblins might find acceptable. Gnolls, Aviaks, and the various other intelligent creatures should have distinct criteria so that the AI that emerges for gnolls is 'gnollish' and not just another Orc with a different character model.
World AI -- Threat reaction. Each race should have different parameters for how they react to a threat. Some races might send out individuals to investigate something in their environ, while another race might send out a pack of 6 to investigate. Different threat levels should escalate the response. A PC group of three exploring around the old temple ruins near the gnoll's base of operations might illicit one response, but a small raid would receive an entirely different response. Some races might choose to flee (sometimes) when faced with an overwhelming force, others might stand to defend themselves and send runners to nearby allies
World AI -- Goals. A race needs to have some proactive drives. This band of orcs might have met a god who wants them to sacrifice to them. So, they go into the world looking for victims to be sacrificed. They might want better land for themselves, and decide to push the settlers out of Qeynos Hills. They may simply have a desire to retake their hereditary homelands and avenge themselves on the hobbit settlement. These racial goals need to change over time, and I would suggest that new goals be added to a races consideration list periodically. Each goal needs some kind of ending point, an in-game termination date when this goal changes and a new goal is chosen. Changing a goal could be tied to player actions -- the orc chieftain is killed, and a successor is chosen,
I think if these 6 points are added into the logic that creatures exhibit in their behavior, we would all be happy. The days of static spawns and camps would be gone, replaced by an automated opponent with trying to write its own story on the face of Norrath. Of course, there are many other categories of AI points that could be added.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Saxx0n I will be satisfied if an orc sees carebear killing pve mobs and waits until he is almost dead runs up ganks him and then teabags before laughing and walking off. Is that to much to ask?
Yes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
To your point, Sony hasn't said much about their AI, so it is true that all of the hype is just speculation, haha.
I have to give credit to LFD2's dynamic AI. They used a monte carlo search on a dynamically branching AI tree to generate unique mob crowd behavior every game that learned over time.
I can't think of a adaptive method implemented on such an ambitious large scale. If EQ uses an adaptive method of AI ( I believe they do from what they have said ), we could see some very unique and skillful AI.
One of my concerns, at least so far, with this new AI is that mobs in groups don't coordinate. So each mob is doing its own thing, this in turn makes it nearly impossible for players to coordinate and we end up with another "Every Man For Himself" combat system.
It think this is something StoryBricks is very good at. Technically every Ork is acting on his own, but they form a swarm that has an emerging behavior.
Every single Ork has a list of needs with different priorities. he wants to fulfill. That could be:
1. He wants to be around al least 5 other orks. 2. He wants to find players that his current group outnumbers. 3. He runs away from groups of players that outnumber his group. 4. Orks that are in a fight or fleeing that don't outnumber the players 3/1 will cry for help and attract all orks from a wider area 5. He wants to be around 10 other orks 6. If he is near the ork camp and there are less then 30 orks in the camp, he wants to go there.
So the orks will constantly react to other works and to players. So for example you will encounter a small group of orks that will immediately run away but then if will be joined by another group and start attacking while calling in more orks. Many orks will be drawn to the side of the camp where the battle is so another group of players could raid the camp from the other side.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I dunno, I've heard about them designing a program in chess that could beat almost every human player it faced. RPG's are about numbers mostly, and that's something computer's are much better than us at. As for it being unpredictible as a human that just sounds impossible.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I dunno, I've heard about them designing a program in chess that could beat almost every human player it faced. RPG's are about numbers mostly, and that's something computer's are much better than us at. As for it being unpredictible as a human that just sounds impossible.
They could always introduce an algorithm that rolls the dice on what stats the mobs are bestowed with..maximum stats being the most likely roll while average stats being less likely and lower stats being possible but not probable.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I dunno, I've heard about them designing a program in chess that could beat almost every human player it faced. RPG's are about numbers mostly, and that's something computer's are much better than us at. As for it being unpredictible as a human that just sounds impossible.
They could always introduce an algorithm that rolls the dice on what stats the mobs are bestowed with..maximum stats being the most likely roll while average stats being less likely and lower stats being possible but not probable.
Yeah but you still wouldn't be able to trick a computer in the way you can a person. I can do 2 abilities that are commonly recognized as the beginning of a particular rotation, and then when said player begins to counter me I actually just faked it and then do a completely different one. I don't see a computer being capable of this, at least not yet anyways. We've all seen terminator and we know the future XD.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
Apparently you never watched none of the Storybricks videos. So I'll just leave it at this: You sir are 100% WRONG in your assessment. Good Day!
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
achieving realistic AI has less to do with the AI and more to do with tricking real intelligence into believing the AI is real..which is fairly easy to do.
I actually am quite curious as to the nature of storybricks. Will they be smart enough to recognize a fleeing or surrendering opponent? Will they recognize an opponent they have fought before? Will they run in terror if a well known one man army shows up to attack them?
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
Apparently you never watched none of the Storybricks videos. So I'll just leave it at this: You sir are 100% WRONG in your assessment. Good Day!
Thank you for your response, much appreciated and relevant to this discussion. Say im wrong then jump out the thread, people like you shouldn't post on message boards if you can't add anything relevant to a discussion.
I'll look at their "videos" tell which are you refering to atleast.
"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 I'm more concerned about creating too good of an AI and then we have a real life SKYNET on our hands...
Haha, that won't happen for a good while my friend.
Originally posted by Rusque
Agreed. Here's a quote:
"To some degree. But, by intelligent, what we really mean, generally speaking, is that the more intelligent an NPC is, the more likely they are to choose the most appropriate or more appropriate actions at any given time. So, the smarter Orc would choose to do some of the more optimal options whereas a dumb Orc might not. They may make mistakes and poor choices."
So the AI isn't going to be reacting and learning like people might be expecting. They will have a list of scripted options with more inclination to pick a good option depending on "smartness".
i.e.:
Orcs have random smartness from 1-10
Their scripted options include the following:
1. Attack closest target.
2. Attack largest sized target.
3. Attack lowest health target.
4. Attack target doing the most damage.
5. Interrupt ability and CC target.
So a group of 4 orcs will have variable "smartness" ratings, the dumb ones will be 90% likely to pick from scripts 1 & 2, the average ones will have a bell curve with script #3 being the most common picked. And the really smart ones will do 4 & 5 most of the time.
Spot on.
And what will this do? Turn group content into a ping pong event of each individual mob attacking it's own target causing every member of the party to run around like headless chickens, ignoring each other and only focusing on themselves, aiming to keep themselves alive.
That is poor game design.
I think its poor game playing. You make an assumption will make the party run around like headless chickens. It may be a possibility but you cant say that for every single gamer or every single group.
What I see it doing (if what you are saying is remotely correct seeing how no one has even seen the game) is forcing gamers to organize on a different level we haven't experienced yet. This 'tank stand here, healers in the background, DPS on the sides and the back' is just old. To me its just as bad as what you are worried about
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
This is all conjecture. How do you know if the AI is overestimated if you never experienced the AI? Second, you make the assumption that more intelligent AI mean human level intelligence and thats not the case.
What SONY is doing *IS* different - no doubt about that. No other game is using AI in the way that Sony is claiming to use it.
Unfortunately we have to wait until the game is released (though I know most of you will amplify your conjecture the minute a youtube gameplay video comes out) - which again isn't valid for a conversation or premise in an argument.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
Bingo.
Ignorance is bliss, but unfortunately as both a 25 year game veteran, 15 year mmo veteran and a computer programmer, I can't help but be disappointed at these lofty promises of emergent AI.
Their best bet is just building on the threat management system. No one has recreated it so that it was challenging and engaging as it was in classic Everquest, and no one has fully realized the potential of making the system much more dynamic. Most if not all of what they are promising could be done while still maintaining threat management and the class role system.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013. A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible. Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition. What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I dare to disagree, i have much more than basic Knowledge of monster Ai.
You know angband? Simple graphic game, but boss monster Ai, Awsome, better than anything in mmorpg atm, i developed my own angband variant. And i have always said if they can actually translate that Ai into current rpg Ai it's gonna change everything
To me, SOE attempting to make a better scripted AI is a great thing. It's a step in the right direction and if they succeed at even half of what they are wanting, then other game companies will see this and follow suit.
I'm not expecting really intelligent AI. I have no knowledge of how difficult this is to program as compared to maybe single player games, but I would think there will be limitations with so many players playing at once.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I'd just like to point out that SOE is falsely using the word AI. It isn't AI at all. The poster above me said scripted AI, and he was partially right. They've made nothing more than a more advanced "script", something no other game developer has tried their hand at to this extent. The "script" makes the monsters look more "intelligent", that's the idea. It is good game design, but good game design does not equate to artificial intelligence. A script does not equal AI.
Maybe they can and maybe they can't, all I can say as a CS major is that AI tech in other industries is much better than what we had in mmo or just general games. Anyway it doesn't matter because these are all just estimations. At the end of the day, the one thing we'll remember is the final product.
Maybe they can and maybe they can't, all I can say as a CS major is that AI tech in other industries is much better than what we had in mmo or just general games. Anyway it doesn't matter because these are all just estimations. At the end of the day, the one thing we'll remember is the final product.
Glass half full here.
AI has never been introduced to MMO's and EQN won't be implementing it either. The most prolific researchers in the world have barely even touched the surface of AI's potential. It has only been a couple of years now, since we've had robots than can actually learn from their environment. AI is many many years away from making an appearance in MMOs.
The emergent AI they discussed doesn't seem that hard to do, the question is whether it will make the game better or not. We will use the scenario that Dave gave us about the orcs they let loose into the world.
Currently, in most games, we would be given a quest to go to the forest and kill 10 orcs. We would then go to the forest and find a bunch of orcs standing around, maybe even moving a few steps one way or another. We would then begin to kill 1 or 2 at a time until we have our 10 kills. Player #2 could also be doing the same quest and this would go on for every new character created. Each player would go to the same spot and find the same orcs in the same spot acting the same way.
With the emergent AI described, this group of orcs would leave the forest after X number of players came to kill them. In the description given, they would look for another spot similar to the first because that is the type of area they like. They would then move again and again each time they die enough times.
My question is what happens to the players as the orcs move further and further away from their starting point? You are sent to the woods to kill orcs, only to find there aren't any there? You check the next closest woods only to find there are none there either. You have to move further and further out to finish your quest. Eventually you find some orcs, but unfortunately the trolls in that area are much higher level than you and you die trying to kill the orcs. QUEST FAILED.
I know, I know. They game didn't just let 1 group of orcs out into the world. After a while the game would spawn another group near the forest to take the place of the first group. The only problem here is that even though player #1 fought a different group of orcs in the woods than player #300,593 to each player it seems like the same static spawn of orcs. Even though emergent AI worked, the end result was still the same. Every player still went to the same spot in the woods and killed 10 orcs. GAME IMPROVEMENT FAILED.
This only gets cool if after moving 5 times (and eventually being left alone by the players because they are far enough away from the quest area) the orcs are able to settle in. Over the course of a few weeks more and more orcs arrive until there are hundreds or thousands of orcs. They all start to talk to each other and realize the players from the city keep coming out and killing them. They realize that there aren't that many players at any one time and they currently outnumber the players 100 to 1. Now, 100 to 1 odds are just high enough for the orcs to overcome their fear of the guards in the city and, in one fell swoop, they travel back into the woods killing every player they find. After they clear out the woods they then advance on the city and either destroy it or are wiped out in the process. GAME IMPROVEMENT SUCCESS.
Comments
I dont really expect much from it eighter tbh, at least until they give us some ingame examples instead of just talk.
Still, ANY kind of increased AI would be nice for a change.
One of my concerns, at least so far, with this new AI is that mobs in groups don't coordinate. So each mob is doing its own thing, this in turn makes it nearly impossible for players to coordinate and we end up with another "Every Man For Himself" combat system.
Exactly, I really don't find what SOE is proposing to do with AI in EQNext to be outlandish at all. Especially since they can handle all the calculation on their side.
Those of you that haven't done it yet, go watch the storybricks videos on youtube get a very basic, and outdated idea of what SOE is working with here.
No. The very first thing you learn in pvp is.. learn to assist. It's basic.. and it can be done with a script like that.. Like do what your leader says, or attack the target your leader promotes. There have to be a good reason to do otherwise.. like interupting.
PvP and group pvp is rather simple. Really it is. And you can do very well a priority order list. But what is much more important, and what can be done with a sophisticated AI, is a chain of command, and different AI decisions for every layer.
Like.. the commander(a rather clever Ork... hell he is the commander, he should be one of the more clever ones) calls targets, commands orders. And now his ork squads decide within their priority list. Most of them will exactly do what the commander said.. some maybe are either to stupid or have some other reasons.
And with that kind of priority list for every mob, and with different command structures you will get a reasonable result.
Example: Squad of orks. 1 Commander. 4 Orks.
Commander cry: Attack the Healer
Ork 1: Loyal, disciplined, clever... follows immediately the command and runs to the healer.
Ork 2: Loyal, disciplined, not so clever... looks around first. Recognize Ork 1 is running to a target and follows him shortly after.
Ork 3: not disciplined. But clever. Runs to the mage.
Ork 4: Not disciplint. Not clever. Attacks the tank.
Ok.. this is of course a example a little bit to much out of the ordinary.. but i guess you get what i wanted to say. Important is, that any does have his own orders and agendas. Therefor not always everyone runs like one person, and that just looks, and actually is more realistic.
As i already said. Combat is not rocket science. For combat really advanced AI is not necessary. The problem is in almost all games in the past.. the AI isn't even worth mentioning. It is of course a performance issue to, if you actually have different Orders for every mob, instead of one order for all mobs. And that is really the simpliest kind of AI possible, but it is a whole lot more that what we have seen since three decades. Although, there are some exceptions... just play a session Z(old RTS game).. you will be surprised.
I will be satisfied if an orc sees carebear killing pve mobs and waits until he is almost dead runs up ganks him and then teabags before laughing and walking off.
Is that to much to ask?
Life IS Feudal
No matter how they choose to implement AI, I'd hope they attempt to do a couple of basic things. First a short list with explanations of AI that governs creatures (individually and as groups) in a fight.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Yes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
To your point, Sony hasn't said much about their AI, so it is true that all of the hype is just speculation, haha.
I have to give credit to LFD2's dynamic AI. They used a monte carlo search on a dynamically branching AI tree to generate unique mob crowd behavior every game that learned over time.
I can't think of a adaptive method implemented on such an ambitious large scale. If EQ uses an adaptive method of AI ( I believe they do from what they have said ), we could see some very unique and skillful AI.
Every single Ork has a list of needs with different priorities. he wants to fulfill. That could be:
1. He wants to be around al least 5 other orks.
2. He wants to find players that his current group outnumbers.
3. He runs away from groups of players that outnumber his group.
4. Orks that are in a fight or fleeing that don't outnumber the players 3/1 will cry for help and attract all orks from a wider area
5. He wants to be around 10 other orks
6. If he is near the ork camp and there are less then 30 orks in the camp, he wants to go there.
So the orks will constantly react to other works and to players. So for example you will encounter a small group of orks that will immediately run away but then if will be joined by another group and start attacking while calling in more orks. Many orks will be drawn to the side of the camp where the battle is so another group of players could raid the camp from the other side.
I dunno, I've heard about them designing a program in chess that could beat almost every human player it faced. RPG's are about numbers mostly, and that's something computer's are much better than us at. As for it being unpredictible as a human that just sounds impossible.
They could always introduce an algorithm that rolls the dice on what stats the mobs are bestowed with..maximum stats being the most likely roll while average stats being less likely and lower stats being possible but not probable.
Yeah but you still wouldn't be able to trick a computer in the way you can a person. I can do 2 abilities that are commonly recognized as the beginning of a particular rotation, and then when said player begins to counter me I actually just faked it and then do a completely different one. I don't see a computer being capable of this, at least not yet anyways. We've all seen terminator and we know the future XD.
Apparently you never watched none of the Storybricks videos. So I'll just leave it at this: You sir are 100% WRONG in your assessment. Good Day!
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
I actually am quite curious as to the nature of storybricks. Will they be smart enough to recognize a fleeing or surrendering opponent? Will they recognize an opponent they have fought before? Will they run in terror if a well known one man army shows up to attack them?
I can't wait to see what this is capable of...
Thank you for your response, much appreciated and relevant to this discussion. Say im wrong then jump out the thread, people like you shouldn't post on message boards if you can't add anything relevant to a discussion.
I'll look at their "videos" tell which are you refering to atleast.
"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"
I think its poor game playing. You make an assumption will make the party run around like headless chickens. It may be a possibility but you cant say that for every single gamer or every single group.
What I see it doing (if what you are saying is remotely correct seeing how no one has even seen the game) is forcing gamers to organize on a different level we haven't experienced yet. This 'tank stand here, healers in the background, DPS on the sides and the back' is just old. To me its just as bad as what you are worried about
This is all conjecture. How do you know if the AI is overestimated if you never experienced the AI? Second, you make the assumption that more intelligent AI mean human level intelligence and thats not the case.
What SONY is doing *IS* different - no doubt about that. No other game is using AI in the way that Sony is claiming to use it.
Unfortunately we have to wait until the game is released (though I know most of you will amplify your conjecture the minute a youtube gameplay video comes out) - which again isn't valid for a conversation or premise in an argument.
Bingo.
Ignorance is bliss, but unfortunately as both a 25 year game veteran, 15 year mmo veteran and a computer programmer, I can't help but be disappointed at these lofty promises of emergent AI.
Their best bet is just building on the threat management system. No one has recreated it so that it was challenging and engaging as it was in classic Everquest, and no one has fully realized the potential of making the system much more dynamic. Most if not all of what they are promising could be done while still maintaining threat management and the class role system.
I dare to disagree, i have much more than basic Knowledge of monster Ai.You know angband? Simple graphic game, but boss monster Ai, Awsome, better than anything in mmorpg atm, i developed my own angband variant. And i have always said if they can actually translate that Ai into current rpg Ai it's gonna change everything
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
To me, SOE attempting to make a better scripted AI is a great thing. It's a step in the right direction and if they succeed at even half of what they are wanting, then other game companies will see this and follow suit.
I'm not expecting really intelligent AI. I have no knowledge of how difficult this is to program as compared to maybe single player games, but I would think there will be limitations with so many players playing at once.
I'd just like to point out that SOE is falsely using the word AI. It isn't AI at all. The poster above me said scripted AI, and he was partially right. They've made nothing more than a more advanced "script", something no other game developer has tried their hand at to this extent. The "script" makes the monsters look more "intelligent", that's the idea. It is good game design, but good game design does not equate to artificial intelligence. A script does not equal AI.
And you're underestimating the AI...
Maybe they can and maybe they can't, all I can say as a CS major is that AI tech in other industries is much better than what we had in mmo or just general games. Anyway it doesn't matter because these are all just estimations. At the end of the day, the one thing we'll remember is the final product.
Glass half full here.
AI has never been introduced to MMO's and EQN won't be implementing it either. The most prolific researchers in the world have barely even touched the surface of AI's potential. It has only been a couple of years now, since we've had robots than can actually learn from their environment. AI is many many years away from making an appearance in MMOs.
The emergent AI they discussed doesn't seem that hard to do, the question is whether it will make the game better or not. We will use the scenario that Dave gave us about the orcs they let loose into the world.
Currently, in most games, we would be given a quest to go to the forest and kill 10 orcs. We would then go to the forest and find a bunch of orcs standing around, maybe even moving a few steps one way or another. We would then begin to kill 1 or 2 at a time until we have our 10 kills. Player #2 could also be doing the same quest and this would go on for every new character created. Each player would go to the same spot and find the same orcs in the same spot acting the same way.
With the emergent AI described, this group of orcs would leave the forest after X number of players came to kill them. In the description given, they would look for another spot similar to the first because that is the type of area they like. They would then move again and again each time they die enough times.
My question is what happens to the players as the orcs move further and further away from their starting point? You are sent to the woods to kill orcs, only to find there aren't any there? You check the next closest woods only to find there are none there either. You have to move further and further out to finish your quest. Eventually you find some orcs, but unfortunately the trolls in that area are much higher level than you and you die trying to kill the orcs. QUEST FAILED.
I know, I know. They game didn't just let 1 group of orcs out into the world. After a while the game would spawn another group near the forest to take the place of the first group. The only problem here is that even though player #1 fought a different group of orcs in the woods than player #300,593 to each player it seems like the same static spawn of orcs. Even though emergent AI worked, the end result was still the same. Every player still went to the same spot in the woods and killed 10 orcs. GAME IMPROVEMENT FAILED.
This only gets cool if after moving 5 times (and eventually being left alone by the players because they are far enough away from the quest area) the orcs are able to settle in. Over the course of a few weeks more and more orcs arrive until there are hundreds or thousands of orcs. They all start to talk to each other and realize the players from the city keep coming out and killing them. They realize that there aren't that many players at any one time and they currently outnumber the players 100 to 1. Now, 100 to 1 odds are just high enough for the orcs to overcome their fear of the guards in the city and, in one fell swoop, they travel back into the woods killing every player they find. After they clear out the woods they then advance on the city and either destroy it or are wiped out in the process. GAME IMPROVEMENT SUCCESS.