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Stop with Pay to Win!

BootezBootez Member UncommonPosts: 72

Why is it that almost every single mmo in existence right now has some sort of pay to win component? 

 

PS2: Weapons.

GW2: Gold through gems

Anarchy Online: You can buy a level 220 and then pay more and gear it out in Ofab.

Firefall: Pay to unlock battleframes.

Diablo 3: Cash shop auction house.

Eve: PLEX

League of Legends: Let's just buy that new OP champion.

Even our "beloved" World of Warcraft: XP potion (Coming soon to a store near you!)

 

I don't understand why this is necessary. Why can't games be bound to the games themselves? Why is it that we can't just go camp out that cool cosmetic gear instead of pulling out the wallet? Even cosmetic cash shops are a problem. It break immersion. It ruins the whole idea of building up a character (Yes, that includes looks). We all want to feel connected to our characters again, but we keep buying into the "Oh, cosmetic shops are okay. And hey, why shouldn't I be able to pay $200 for a max level character, or $5 for a new weapon, or new class?" 

 

The thing that made MMO's so great in the past is that we had to spend the time to make ourselves look rad. We have been putting cheat codes into these games for the last few years, essentially. Let's just take a look at consoles: What do you remember most fondly? The game you beat without cheating? Or the game you threw all the invincibility codes in and flew through it? 

 

We are cheating ourselves out of great experiences and the companies are eating it up. 

 

I just want an honest mmo company to make a game that isn't about nickel and diming, but about creating an immersive, wonderful experience. When I log into the game and realize I can just throw money at hardships, what is the point? 

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Comments

  • TraugarTraugar Member UncommonPosts: 183

    The problem is that the players have spoken with their wallets over the years.  So many players say no to cash shops and that earned in game is how it should be, but then they turn around and buy from a gold farmer at some point.  For a long time it was hard to find anyone who would say that it was ok to use real life money to advance in game, but the farmers were making tons of money by those who were "against" it.  In reality many of those who were against it only wanted to be able to feel that they had got ahead with their character.  They didn't and don't want it legitimized because that puts everyone on even footing again, and the attempt to get away from that even footing is what got it started to begin with.  

    I personally don't like cash shops, but I understand that it doesn't matter if the devs put one in or not.  Real world money is going to be used to influence the game.  I think think that in that situation that money should at least be going back to the devs to further finance the game, and hopefully make it a better game.  

  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671

    Eve is not p2w.

    At least get some knowledge of the games you mention before judging them.

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • BootezBootez Member UncommonPosts: 72
    Eve isn't P2W? Yeah, go buy some PLEX, sell it, and tell me that didn't just help fund your new couple ships.
  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671
    Originally posted by Bootez
    Eve isn't P2W? Yeah, go buy some PLEX, sell it, and tell me that didn't just help fund your new couple ships.

     

    Clearly your ignorance of how Eve is played is skewing your point of view. Continue thinking what you want.

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • dorugudorugu Member UncommonPosts: 184

    firefall:sorry yu fail there i got the sniper battle frame n it didnt cost me a dime ut took abit to get it by playing n upgrading the basic frames :)

    sure yu can pay if yu dun wanna wait but its not necessary

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Bootez
    Eve isn't P2W? Yeah, go buy some PLEX, sell it, and tell me that didn't just help fund your new couple ships.

     

    Clearly your ignorance of how Eve is played is skewing your point of view. Continue thinking what you want.

    i thought it obvious that it was pointless to argue with OP when he claimed GW2 was p2w

    image
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  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Bootez
    Eve isn't P2W? Yeah, go buy some PLEX, sell it, and tell me that didn't just help fund your new couple ships.

     

    Clearly your ignorance of how Eve is played is skewing your point of view. Continue thinking what you want.

    i thought it obvious that it was pointless to argue with OP when he claimed GW2 was p2w

    Touche

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,768

    Since I never, ever, play MMO's to win,  I don't find this very concerning.  In fact, I don't even know anyone that does "play to win".

     

    I do take exception to games that pretend to be free, but are essentialy unplayable or unenjoyable without spending money.

    But EVE pay to win?  Even I would disagree with that!   As many have said you can buy the biggest baddest ship in that game and still get your ass kicked.  Hardly pay to win.   And most of the other games merely offer ways to to advance in a quicker fashion,  which for some unfathomable reason is considered P2W by your MMO winning crowd.

    As for any games that truly are P2W, well the choice is yours to play or not to play.

    I am still waiting to hear what player eventually wins EVE.   Whoever it is, that sonofabitch deserves some respect!!image

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • ZadawnZadawn Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Originally posted by dorugu

    firefall:sorry yu fail there i got the sniper battle frame n it didnt cost me a dime ut took abit to get it by playing n upgrading the basic frames :)

    sure yu can pay if yu dun wanna wait but its not necessary

    Exactly what the OP said,you're cheating yourselves.Sure you can add invulnerability and no clipping to your character in a single player game if you don't want to wait until you finish it legitimately but it is not necessary.


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  • ZadawnZadawn Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    Since I never, ever, play MMO's to win,  I don't find this very concerning.  In fact, I don't even know anyone that does "play to win".

     

    I do take exception to games that pretend to be free, but are essentialy unplayable or unenjoyable without spending money.

    But EVE pay to win?  Even I would disagree with that!   As many have said you can buy the biggest baddest ship in that game and still get your ass kicked.  Hardly pay to win.   And most of the other games merely offer ways to to advance in a quicker fashion,  which for some unfathomable reason is considered P2W by your MMO winning crowd.

    As for any games that truly are P2W, well the choice is yours to play or not to play.

    I am still waiting to hear what player eventually wins EVE.   Whoever it is, that sonofabitch deserves some respect!!image

    As i said in another thread, It is all about your perception of the word "WIN". If to me winning means getting to the level cap faster than other people and you buy experience boosts and top me, then you've just paid to win.


  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,772

    Guild wars 2 is not pay to win, eve is not pay to win, and how the hell is an xp potion pay to win in wow? Do you know what pay to win is? Pay to win would be any of the grindy mmo's that you can choose to pay for THE BEST gear in the game, where paying gives you an advantage in pvp. Paying 1000 dollars to rune up your weapons which is possible without paying but is nearly a 1% chance that it will work. Paying for an xp potion will basically allow them to level to max level in wow faster. You realize that max level in wow means nothing right? It won't give them any advantage over any other player except for the fact that they got to the max level, and even then it takes what 2 days without the potion to get to the max level?

    Go play Runes of Magic, or any Perfect World game and you will know what true pay to win is. Paying for convenience isn't the same as paying to win. You want to just stop having cash shops in general. Which honestly if they took out any xp potions, any of the lower gear, or anything you can physically sell to another player, it would remove incentive for the people to actually purchase the item in the first place, thus killing off their cash shop, which if it's a free to play game, then there goes their revenue source. Most of the free to play games can't go back to a subscription or can't start a subscription based model otherwise the crapstorm of free only players or players who were willing to buy a couple things in the shop will start to complain in the forums, and they will lose like 90% of their playerbase. 

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    Since I never, ever, play MMO's to win,  I don't find this very concerning.  In fact, I don't even know anyone that does "play to win".

     

    I do take exception to games that pretend to be free, but are essentialy unplayable or unenjoyable without spending money.

    But EVE pay to win?  Even I would disagree with that!   As many have said you can buy the biggest baddest ship in that game and still get your ass kicked.  Hardly pay to win.   And most of the other games merely offer ways to to advance in a quicker fashion,  which for some unfathomable reason is considered P2W by your MMO winning crowd.

    As for any games that truly are P2W, well the choice is yours to play or not to play.

    I am still waiting to hear what player eventually wins EVE.   Whoever it is, that sonofabitch deserves some respect!!image

    As i said in another thread, It is all about your perception of the word "WIN". If to me winning means getting to the level cap faster than other people and you buy experience boosts and top me, then you've just paid to win.

    I'd slap you over the top of your head if i could. I'll suffice by just telling you that i'd slap you over the top of the head if i could.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • ZadawnZadawn Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Originally posted by Panther2103

    Guild wars 2 is not pay to win, eve is not pay to win, and how the hell is an xp potion pay to win in wow? Do you know what pay to win is? Pay to win would be any of the grindy mmo's that you can choose to pay for THE BEST gear in the game, where paying gives you an advantage in pvp. Paying 1000 dollars to rune up your weapons which is possible without paying but is nearly a 1% chance that it will work. Paying for an xp potion will basically allow them to level to max level in wow faster. You realize that max level in wow means nothing right? It won't give them any advantage over any other player except for the fact that they got to the max level, and even then it takes what 2 days without the potion to get to the max level?

    Go play Runes of Magic, or any Perfect World game and you will know what true pay to win is. Paying for convenience isn't the same as paying to win. You want to just stop having cash shops in general. Which honestly if they took out any xp potions, any of the lower gear, or anything you can physically sell to another player, it would remove incentive for the people to actually purchase the item in the first place, thus killing off their cash shop, which if it's a free to play game, then there goes their revenue source. Most of the free to play games can't go back to a subscription or can't start a subscription based model otherwise the crapstorm of free only players or players who were willing to buy a couple things in the shop will start to complain in the forums, and they will lose like 90% of their playerbase. 

    And i hope it happens so.


  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,768
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    Since I never, ever, play MMO's to win,  I don't find this very concerning.  In fact, I don't even know anyone that does "play to win".

     

    I do take exception to games that pretend to be free, but are essentialy unplayable or unenjoyable without spending money.

    But EVE pay to win?  Even I would disagree with that!   As many have said you can buy the biggest baddest ship in that game and still get your ass kicked.  Hardly pay to win.   And most of the other games merely offer ways to to advance in a quicker fashion,  which for some unfathomable reason is considered P2W by your MMO winning crowd.

    As for any games that truly are P2W, well the choice is yours to play or not to play.

    I am still waiting to hear what player eventually wins EVE.   Whoever it is, that sonofabitch deserves some respect!!image

    As i said in another thread, It is all about your perception of the word "WIN". If to me winning means getting to the level cap faster than other people and you buy experience boosts and top me, then you've just paid to win.

    So what If I just started playing before you?   Is that cheating too because I will get there before you then also?  Is winning an MMO determined by how fast one gets to level cap?  

    What you just said, amounts to nothing but bitching and whining IMO.  I have also stated in other posts:  What possible difference could it make to you as a player, when another player levels faster than you?  It happens all the time dude whether you pay or not.  You are just pissed because they did it the easy way. 

    But you are sucking me into the circle argument again and not gonna go there.   I honestly wonder how you people enjoy anything when you let minor shit like this bother you in a game.

    Ya know they really need separate servers for guys like you too.   The E-sport Fanatic server!  Pay a monthly sub on that server so that you are free to find other things about the game to bitch and whine about.   Trademark!!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx Member UncommonPosts: 2,402

    League of legends is not pay to win...

    they only sell champions/runes/ and skins. 2 of those can be purchased with the in game currency.

     

    You can get to a point where you are only buying champions. I have been playing since launch, and i havent HAD to spend money on any champs. I buy skins cause i like them,b ut i always have enough IP for the next champ purely by playing the game.

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  • ZadawnZadawn Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    Since I never, ever, play MMO's to win,  I don't find this very concerning.  In fact, I don't even know anyone that does "play to win".

     

    I do take exception to games that pretend to be free, but are essentialy unplayable or unenjoyable without spending money.

    But EVE pay to win?  Even I would disagree with that!   As many have said you can buy the biggest baddest ship in that game and still get your ass kicked.  Hardly pay to win.   And most of the other games merely offer ways to to advance in a quicker fashion,  which for some unfathomable reason is considered P2W by your MMO winning crowd.

    As for any games that truly are P2W, well the choice is yours to play or not to play.

    I am still waiting to hear what player eventually wins EVE.   Whoever it is, that sonofabitch deserves some respect!!image

    As i said in another thread, It is all about your perception of the word "WIN". If to me winning means getting to the level cap faster than other people and you buy experience boosts and top me, then you've just paid to win.

    So what If I just started playing before you?   Is that cheating too because I will get there before you then also?  Is winning an MMO determined by how fast one gets to level cap?  

    What you just said, amounts to nothing but bitching and whining IMO.  I have also stated in other posts:  What possible difference could it make to you as a player, when another player levels faster than you?  It happens all the time dude whether you pay or not.  You are just pissed because they did it the easy way. 

    But you are sucking me into the circle argument again and not gonna go there.   I honestly wonder how you people enjoy anything when you let minor shit like this bother you in a game.

    Ya know they really need separate servers for guys like you too.   The E-sport Fanatic server!  Pay a monthly sub on that server so that you are free to find other things about the game to bitch and whine about.   Trademark!!

    I just gave an example?And that example makes perfect sense.You level faster with the xp boost,do that max level quest that rewards you with that certain item then come and beat me in pvp.


  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    The only things that sell in f2p games usually are when its pay2win [mod edit]

    Alot of these mmorpg's try to play off the stuff they sell in the cash shops as "convience" items, but more often than not it becomes pay2win if you wanna compete with others. I've almost given up on mmorpgs they are either 1) Shitty world of warcraft wannabe's like pretty much every mmo out and coming out (FF14: ARR imo is more shit than the old version near when it went down to become ARR, FF14ARR is bascally wow with a FF skin over it now). or 2) Are just bad bland boring games in general (also applies to most mmo's)

    I mean is it really so hbard for these devs to do something diffrent? or to gives us something to use raid gear for other than farming more raids? Eq 1/2 and Rift do this, why don't the rest catch on? Hell I think EQ2's Alternate advancement system is bloody brilliant, since you can start using it as low as level 10, and it gives you stuff to do long after you've reached cap, and got your raid gear. Most mmorpg's that come out these days fall on their ass after 2 months if that, because there is just not enough to do, and you can hit level cap too easly. They are also plagued by bascally being single player games till level cap, in wow and such how often do you see people grouping for anything outside of an instance? you bascally never do because there is no need to. I think mmorpg's need to go back to their group oriented routes, where you need a party or a small party to do anything, this way people won't hit level cap in 2-3 days on a brand new just released mmo.

    Sadly mmorpg's are made for casual [mod edit], which is why they are so shallow, Its a double sided blade though, people complain they want a different experence, but when a dev delivers this, they whine and moan about it. This is why we can't have change, anytime they break out of the world of warcraft clone mould, people shun the game for it.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    There is no p2w in pve .. cause there is no winning.

    Another player with a bought sword can't really affect you in pve. In fact, if you group with him, you may be thankful that he is actually geared. So you leeched some of the "win" off him too.

    And why should it be stopped? Just because the OP does not like it?

    Don't you think it is fair for those who subsidize your gaming get a little advantage? If not, you can pay as much as they do, and even the playing field (in pvp, of course).

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    from the games listed by the OP Anarchy sounds pay to win, and Planetside 2 if the weapons are strong.

    Nothing else.,

     

    OP,  why dont you focus on the mmos that put all their love towards P2W instead? like a lot of the ones you didnt bother mentioning....





  • strellokstrellok Member Posts: 48

    Are you guys nuts?

    GW2  IS  p2w.

    The  main reason most people play was to get a legendary. You dont need to get it by play time, you can buy it off AH for gold. Or you can buy GEMS from cash shop, convert to gold and there you go, legendary. The only goal of the game achieved and you are done. You won.

    Needless to say, you can fully equip your every character with your real money. OR you can get to level cap without doing anything, just spend your real money, get craft mats you are lvl 80.

    [mod edit]

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Siveria

    The only things that sell in f2p games usually are when its pay2win [mod edit]

    Not in LoL. Not in Marvel Heroes.

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Wait, since when could you buy a level 220 character in Anarchy Online?

    When I left the game, they had implemented a Cash Shop. One of the items on the proposed list at that time were level packs.

    Just like any other booster, these were supposed to be able to boost you to a certain level. But at that time, I think they were only gogin to go so far with them. Not all the way. But it really doesn't matter, You can just buy tokens from teh Cash Shop and sell them, take that money and hire a leveling service. Used to be for about 2M per level, they'd take you into to inferno where you'd sit back and get afk powerleveld. Thing with AO is that there is nothing absolutely NOTHING in the game that can't be bought with credits. With mechanics that allow for Loot Right Selling, even NODROP Raid gear is no exception. So, all FC had to do was put something in the cash shop that was tradeable and AO instantly became a P2W game.

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Originally posted by strellok

    Are you guys nuts?

    GW2  IS  p2w.

    The  main reason most people play was to get a legendary. You dont need to get it by play time, you can buy it off AH for gold. Or you can buy GEMS from cash shop, convert to gold and there you go, legendary. The only goal of the game achieved and you are done. You won.

    Needless to say, you can fully equip your every character with your real money. OR you can get to level cap without doing anything, just spend your real money, get craft mats you are lvl 80.

    [mod edit]

     

    Isn't that more "pay to not have anything to do"?

    You haven't won anything at that point, you simply skipped playing the game.

    Also, if someone wants to spend that much money getting a legendary, then they can go ahead they deserve it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Rusque

     

    Isn't that more "pay to not have anything to do"?

    nah .. it is more like "pay to skip to the part you like more".

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