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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member UncommonPosts: 1,475

    Personally with adapted AI, I would love to see more practical uses of magic, the impractical combat only uses that magic has is one of peeves when playing any fantasy themed mmo. Often times elemental magic is limited to combat functions and nothing more.

    Maybe I would like light some unlit or discarded candles in an abandoned crypt with a fire spell. Or even more technical the ability to in a sense "Rocket Jump" with the use of an explosive fire spell, sacrificing health for mobility. You could even make it extremely simple, you have a set of 8 spells and you combine them for up to at least 30 different abilities.

    Unfortunately I've yet to find a 3D use of such functions.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Edit for space

    The biproduct of which has always been a substantial increase in the amount (and duration) of CC. Something which we've also seen the problem with, though it does make things more dynamic to some extent (at least if the people doing the CC screw up. Else the fights basically exactly the same w/ multiple mobs on 'pause', waiting to be killed). True and that needs to be addressed as well.. That was on thing I did like with all EQ cc and most of WoW's cc is that it was breakable.. (as it should be).. I don't like that cc's become unbreakable because then it truly is only a pause button for mob killing.. That is boring too.. CC's need to be long enough to be effective, but short enough to keep your attention to a degree..

    If you're not proposing an increase in CC to compensate, then you essential end up with almost exactly what GW2 already has, and we've all seen the complaints to go with it. True.. I"m not a fan of GW2's cc's because they are only 3 second disturbances before mob is back in your face again and the problem still exist..

    The thing is, most supporters of the trinity model like the certainty & stability it provides. It simplifies things to where people know what to expect from each & every group. You take that away, and it makes combat a lot more dynamic, but also a lot more ambiguous, and a lot of people don't like that.  True, and that was one beauty I always loved about early EQ.. CC in the forms of Mez and Roots were designed for a minute,, BUT.. at any AI checkpoint the mob can break root or mez prematurely.. I LOVED THAT.. Nothing should be absolute and on a timer.. However, classes should have the ability to reapply root or mez as needed.. To use GW2 again as an example, you can still play it like a trinity game, but the game plays by a different set of rules. You don't know if a class is going to support you properly, go for debuffs, utlity, straight damage, survivability, or some kind of wierd hybrid until you play with them. True, it has limited forms of trinity, but not game breakers.. I consider GW2 to be 90% dps, and 10% trinity.. Sure there is limited trinity involved, but if it's weak or broken, it doesn't = WIPE FAIL, and I think that is what the devs wanted to avoid.. We all know that if Tank screws up or Healer screws up, WIPE, there is no recovery.. But in GW2, with limited trinity, someone can screw up or burp, but it doesn't wipe the group and often gives them a chance to recover and move on.. 

    That doesn't mean the system is broken, just that it requires a very different mental approach to understand it. However, that doesn't change that this basically boils down to a matter of personal preference. I.E. Some people like the certainty of the trinity, while others realize & are comfortable with the possibilities moving passed that model provides. The issue I have is that when too much of a class or fight is dps focused, it truly removes a lot of options by the group.. such as CC control or support.. The devs want us to believe that watching the hotkey for CC reload or buff/debuff reload is a bad thing.. But I'm doing exactly that same thing with my weapons hotkeys. I'm am still LOOKING AT hotkey #3 and #4 to refresh..  The only difference is that those keys are now dps keys focusing on mob.. Where as with trinity those keys could be dps on mob, OR support keys targeting player..  (which in my opinion makes it more difficult cause now you have to pay attention to multiple targets).. Lets me honest here.. using GW2.. A group member NEVER really has the skill or the need to watch his teammates health or actions.. UNLESS he needs revived.. 

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Personally with adapted AI, I would love to see more practical uses of magic, the impractical combat only uses that magic has is one of peeves when playing any fantasy themed mmo. Often times elemental magic is limited to combat functions and nothing more.

    Maybe I would like light some unlit or discarded candles in an abandoned crypt with a fire spell. Or even more technical the ability to in a sense "Rocket Jump" with the use of an explosive fire spell, sacrificing health for mobility. You could even make it extremely simple, you have a set of 8 spells and you combine them for up to at least 30 different abilities.

    Unfortunately I've yet to find a 3D use of such functions.

         Early EQ went down that path a little..  Magic was used for many things other then DPS.. Even WoW used magic in non combat roles..  Summoning food/drink?  Summoning players?  Porting?  Invis/see Invis? Illusions?  Harmony? etc etc.. You could even have a wizzy "light" his staff like Gandalf did in LoTR to give light to a dark area.. 

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    It's been long since the last time I heard a developer say something so true.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

     

    So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

     

    On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

     

    Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

    So much for you paying attention to the fact that they weren't demoing actual combat.  They were showing off animations, destructible environments, collision, etc.

    It was not a representation of actual combat the game is going to have.

    And no, the agro-trinity system has not stood the test of time.

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  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    It's been long since the last time I heard a developer say something so true.

    But its not realy the truth. The basics of the things behind the trinity existed way before mmo's and outside the mmo genre. Even at the beginning of the mmo-era we had a much more complex system than the one many know today. It hasn't been the AI that altered the trinity but lazy developers. They reduced complexity, the number of roles and made the 3 remaining roles more "pure". For me the current development is much like an eveolution of this process. They don't reinvent something they just continue to eliminate even more roles and complexity. The result ist we have just a single role left.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    Originally posted by ghorgos
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    It's been long since the last time I heard a developer say something so true.

    But its not realy the truth. The basics of the things behind the trinity existed way before mmo's and outside the mmo genre. Even at the beginning of the mmo-era we had a much more complex system than the one many know today. It hasn't been the AI that altered the trinity but lazy developers. They reduced complexity, the number of roles and made the 3 remaining roles more "pure". For me the current development is much like an eveolution of this process. They don't reinvent something they just continue to eliminate even more roles and complexity. The result ist we have just a single role left.

    Fact is, the trinity has always been a fake and artificial combat system, specially the threat/taunt mechanics. It was used because it made things easy for the developers when it comes to scripted encounters, since the AI wasn't good enough to provide challenging non-scripted mobs.

    With a good AI, you don't need the trinity. And anyway, a good AI would not go and hit the heavy plated guy for hours while the squishies beat the crap out of it.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • LanessarLanessar Member Posts: 87

    I love how people are pulling out the example of PnP being a trinity system before MMOs existed.

     

    I've played DnD since 1980, and the trinity system did not exist in 1ED or 2ED DND. You put your warrior up front because he wore plate and had more HP, but as a DM, I don't remember a single rule that stated "if the warrior engages the monsters, they must attack the warrior".

     

    Not a single rule, ever. About the only "mechanic" that dictated that was the warrior standing in a doorway to bottleneck the monsters. And even then, you'd have spellcasting monsters toast the mages in the back with impunity (I always did).

     

    On top of that, Clerics were quite capable of having just as many HP and just as much armor from basic DnD onward, which breaks the trinity. More even, if that D10 fell on a 1 more than a few times.

     

    Trotting out PnP as the evidence of trinity combat is patently absurd. Some utilized the basic tactic in certain strategic situations, but I will say this: as a DM running intelligent creatures (for example, drow from D1-3), the trinity does not exist in a properly-run encounter. The rules came in during 3.5ED, where they actively attempted to emulate online game behavior (and maybe a few 3ED offshoot books, with the "taunt" skill). However, EQ came out during 2Ed, so I'd attribue the trinity incorporated after the MMO, to the MMO.

  • ZeroxinZeroxin Member UncommonPosts: 2,512
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    How do you know? Please, tell me how you know this for a fact?

    You do not know this, and you cannot quantify their Ai fidelity in any way shape or form

    I have preached this and I will continue to preach it, Ai doesn't matter for anything. If your dungeon design sucks, it just sucks! That's what happened with GW2 and if EQN is not careful, that will be the same thing that will happen to them. 

    GW1 had and still has one the best Ai design in an MMO to date and that game was made in 2005. What they say about Ai doesn't mean a thing.

    This is not a game.

  • donpopukidonpopuki Member Posts: 591
    The trinity grew out of the primitive AI having only two variables to consider. Taunting and damage. Seems StoryBricks is adding many more variables:

    -health bars
    -who is using magic
    -who is healing
    -how many of the mobs friend are still around
    -faction
    -their own health bar
    -particular color a player might wearing
    -playing music (watch out bards!)
    -who has the most gold on them
    -how tall your character is
    -your character is male

    Yes all AI is scripts but the added complexity will make it seem more intelligent. The fun and challenge will be figuring out what the mob's likes and dislikes are in order to adjust your tactics.

    Imagine you trying to kill a woolly mammoth and your ranger friend pulls out his pet rat. All the sudden the mammoth freaks out and runs away.
  • donpopukidonpopuki Member Posts: 591
    The trinity system is like checkers. Simple rules that leads to a simple game. Now chess uses the same board but adds more variety of moves which exponentially increases with the addition of new types if moves.
  • ghorgosghorgos Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by ghorgos
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    It's been long since the last time I heard a developer say something so true.

    But its not realy the truth. The basics of the things behind the trinity existed way before mmo's and outside the mmo genre. Even at the beginning of the mmo-era we had a much more complex system than the one many know today. It hasn't been the AI that altered the trinity but lazy developers. They reduced complexity, the number of roles and made the 3 remaining roles more "pure". For me the current development is much like an eveolution of this process. They don't reinvent something they just continue to eliminate even more roles and complexity. The result ist we have just a single role left.

    Fact is, the trinity has always been a fake and artificial combat system, specially the threat/taunt mechanics. It was used because it made things easy for the developers when it comes to scripted encounters, since the AI wasn't good enough to provide challenging non-scripted mobs.

    With a good AI, you don't need the trinity. And anyway, a good AI would not go and hit the heavy plated guy for hours while the squishies beat the crap out of it.

    Taunt mechanics might be artificial but not the basics behind the trinity. Way before MMO's you already had your warriors trying to block the opponents from attacking your mages. Most of them in a physical way but some had abilities to grab attention(and its very realistic that there are methods to grab attention within certain limits). RL did have similar mechanics. Footsoldiers blocked the path to your archers. Have you ever seen a battle where enemy foot soldiers just ignored the other army and run straight through them to get to the archers? Now RL doesn't have healers or mages but some basics concepts do exist not as confined or crappy as the trinity has become in some games but the trinity wasn't that cheap at the beginning.

    Its not an AI issue by default. threat mechanics are fine if done right. The problems are limited mechanics for a more physical threat and the problem that threats-mechanics got more and more simplified into that taunt-only system. 

     

     

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

    What's the difference of whether or not it's PR? Doesn't that make the quote even more authentic?

    These are words from a developer working directly with the game, not some marketing tactic.

    Yes, that doesn't mean the it's true. You are assuming it will be because he is saying it. Not the first time a game has been hyped before with not so true statements.

    It was tweet to calm down people who have been raging against lack of trinity. All he said was to 'wait and not despair' meas he just wants people to be more patient till they release more info about the AI.

    How is that PR? you really need to understand what PR / hype really is. It is even more ironic coming from someone who used to swear by GW2's manifesto and how every word of it is an absolute truth.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
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  • MothanosMothanos Member UncommonPosts: 1,910

    The best AI there is is to mimic pvp players.

    use cc at the right time when low on health to finish player off.

    use bait moves to force defensive cooldowns and then use your hardest hitting moves.

    use your environment at your advantage, this means stand behind a rock / tree / ledge and make his moves miss.


    sorry but this is not gonne happen by npc's, no matter how hard they can scream "we have the most advanced AI".
    If they do have this then people will quite out of pure frustration by getting their ass handed to them over and over by a npc.
    keep in mind you do not have a healer at your back to safe your ass.
    You do not have a tank soaking up all that damage.


    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." - member of EQN AI team"

    Uhuh lets see how quickly people will ditch EQN

    SOE needs to stop building air castles and come back to earth.
    People already got tired of GW2 due to the lack of healers and tanks as you will create a flavor of the month.
    This cannot be stopped in anyway unless they keep nerfing classes to force another fotm.


    You are creating a zerg to mob mmo.

    i will be laughing my ass off if i get roflstomped by npc's that are not scripted and keep kicking my ass.
    They should ad sentence after a mob kills you, "come at me bro"

    Are you realy waiting for this stuff ?

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,912
    Originally posted by donpopuki
    The trinity grew out of the primitive AI having only two variables to consider. Taunting and damage. Seems StoryBricks is adding many more variables:

    -health bars
    -who is using magic
    -who is healing
    -how many of the mobs friend are still around
    -faction
    -their own health bar
    -particular color a player might wearing
    -playing music (watch out bards!)
    -who has the most gold on them
    -how tall your character is
    -your character is male

    Yes all AI is scripts but the added complexity will make it seem more intelligent. The fun and challenge will be figuring out what the mob's likes and dislikes are in order to adjust your tactics.

    Imagine you trying to kill a woolly mammoth and your ranger friend pulls out his pet rat. All the sudden the mammoth freaks out and runs away.

    That is exactly what I'm hoping, that StoryBricks will allow for much more diverse combat flow and outcomes.

    Trinity scripts follow a very predictable pattern, they have to, because they only change when the developer writes a new one and patches it into the game. All orc archers work the same way, always.

     

    Storybricks should allow that complete predictability to end, because far more variables can be included.

     

    But nobody has seen it working yet (I suspect that's because it's still being developed and fine-tuned) and so we are all super-sceptical. Time will tell.

     

     

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by ghorgos
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    It's been long since the last time I heard a developer say something so true.

    But its not realy the truth. The basics of the things behind the trinity existed way before mmo's and outside the mmo genre. Even at the beginning of the mmo-era we had a much more complex system than the one many know today. It hasn't been the AI that altered the trinity but lazy developers. They reduced complexity, the number of roles and made the 3 remaining roles more "pure". For me the current development is much like an eveolution of this process. They don't reinvent something they just continue to eliminate even more roles and complexity. The result ist we have just a single role left.

    Fact is, the trinity has always been a fake and artificial combat system, specially the threat/taunt mechanics. It was used because it made things easy for the developers when it comes to scripted encounters, since the AI wasn't good enough to provide challenging non-scripted mobs.

    With a good AI, you don't need the trinity. And anyway, a good AI would not go and hit the heavy plated guy for hours while the squishies beat the crap out of it.

    Not really.. In fact in the old early days of EQ, a tank did exactly what he was designed to do and the AI responded.. Games have gone easy mode.. I give you a PERFECT class example how tank trinity worked.. BLACKBURROW in EQ.. I can't begin to tell you how many times a tank PLUGGED the hallway to prevent MOBS or players from getting thru (have to love or hate those Ogres).. the rest of the group would stand behind that "meat shield" as they were called for protection..

    That feature and mechanic was removed because devs got LAZY and players cried too much when some fatass went AFK in a hallway.. or doorway..  NOT all changes are for the better.. Most of the time it's just for convenient sake..

  • keenberkeenber Member UncommonPosts: 438

    I don't care how good you AI is if you have no way of controlling the mobs everybody will have to be zerging mobs with no way of using any kind of strategy.

    So the mob knows which player is doing the most damage ,What then the mob goes after the wizzy who has 100 hp and ignores the tank with 1000 hp . I think this will lead to groups wanting all the same classes and also they probably will want high damage tanks only. I don't want to go running after a lot of mobs because the wizzy had to run because he couldn't tank the mobs do you?

    Unless they change this and give the tanks someway to hold agro on a mob this game will get Boreing very fast.

  • KingsFieldKingsField Member UncommonPosts: 38
    AI will never trump human intelligence. The more they try to do away with the trinity, the more PvE will feel like a gimped version of PvP.
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    In addition ,, EQ's AI was better then todays crap.. Back in early EQ, a warrior did DPS, almost as good as a caster.. The only difference was location.. As far as that mob was concerned Mr Warrior was doing 50 dps, as long as Mr Mage was doing 50 dps from a distance he was safe.. NOW if Mr Mage,m moved up close enough to get smacked.. HE GOT SMACKED, he was the better target.. Lord knows as a druid in leather I got smacked plenty of times if I got too close.. Taunt was ONLY a minor skill the warrior had, it was not the end all, be all to trinity role play..

    There were many of times a Mage would over nuke the mob doing 100dps and that mob would want to ignore the Warrior and go after the Mage... POOF.. mob is snared, and why so often groups back then LOVED CC and snaring.. It allowed your squishies to move OUT of harms way and allow your meat shield to regain the attention.. THIS is all part of role classes.. To remove these features is turning a game into a ONE CLASS system.. BORING

  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.

     

    You can't get away from people mashing buttons like no tomorrow.

    just that . in every game there are tactics and zerg, you choose between these.

     go and talk about zerg in berserker groups at GW2 dungeon groups ... and they are the primitives there ... also try to see and understand the WvW videos from guild vs guild, there are rotations, strict management and tactics changing on the fly ...

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by infofront
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    There's absolutely nothing about action combat that precludes pulling, or high quality tanking, healing and cc systems.

    Oh please, I haven't seen pulling in MMO in years.

    Action MMO are a fad that will blow over once people realise it's as one dimensional as a tetris game, it's pure twitch and no strategy.

    The combat of these games is way too fast and chaotic for strategy or community to prosper.

    Their presentation of their combat was terrible, it was as one dimensional as a back-door. They even had the red boxes so the zerg warrior would know where to stand.

    Come on!

    In almost every class in each mainstream MMO there is a some form of pull ability. If you mean having 6 clowns sit on a rock for four hors watching a spawn across the screen from them and yoinking over a mob when one finally spawns, no that's gone. Devs and players found that a really contrived and crappy way to do thing. They abandoned that over 10 years ago.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by ghorgos

    Taunt mechanics might be artificial but not the basics behind the trinity. Way before MMO's you already had your warriors trying to block the opponents from attacking your mages.

    You're confusing role (defender/blockers) with Trinity (taunt). No one here ever said that people never held up a shield or stood in someone's way before MMOs existed.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • itchmonitchmon Member UncommonPosts: 1,965

    lets say they have a martial artist class meant to be a defensive fighter (tank, in the terms of triinity.)

     

    this is possible obv, because there are 40+ classes right? 

     

    maybe, perhaps the martial artist has an ability that says if the mob tries to go past him, the martial artist trips him and it falls, then the "tank" gets free shots at the unprotected back of the mob.

     

    the mob tries it once or twice and sees what happens, then his options are either to try and go all the way around the effect (ranged folks shoot him while he does it) or stay and try to pound the mean martial artist into smoosh.

     

    there you go; the martial artist tanked without actually using a snap-agro or threat building mechanic; this allowed some ranged DD classes to do THEIR job.  if there's  a healer present the healer can heal the martial artist if and when the mob decides to try "pound bad human into smoosh" option.

     

    if there  are melee DD, maybe the martial artist has a grapple type of move where s/he forces the mob to face a certain way until it breaks out of the grapple; in the meantime it gets its back stabbed by the melee DD.  but ranged DD.might be lessened on the mob because the mob gets a shield effect to simulate the ranged DD not wanting to miss a shot and hit their companion.

     

    just my thoughts of how abilities can work in EQN.

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  • TibbzTibbz Member UncommonPosts: 613
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by whiteoak21

    well if i guess right in eqn maybe there will be taunt like many mmorpg but

    i don't think it will work against intelligent monster.

    if the ai is done correctly monsters will try to kill the healer first and the tank last

     

    That sounds like what he's hinting at, at least that's what I'd assume. If done right this could result in a better more strategic type of system. Instead of learning scripted behavior, we'll have to learn habitual behavior. Who does a goblin like to go after, what angers him, what stuns him etc...

    I think it will be much simpler. Taunt that just raises your aggro without thought is out but skills that build aggro maybe in. Like a skill that bashes and stuns could have a huge aggro because you are controlling  the mob and so it hates you more. Items could be added that make any damage you do gets you a larger % of aggro. This means you could keep the aggro of less mobs but still tank. This would mean others in the team would need to do their part to control the battle. Many tools to make a team work not just one option like tank and spank to keep the team dynamic fresh and almost any combo of players/classes could work if they play well.

    Or even going further; you simpler creatures (Spiders, rats, bats etc) will attack first in site (taunting would be easy).  Same thing with mobs that have high Rage or anger quickly (Trolls, golems, orcs maybe).  They will attack whoever is hurting them the most but are susceptible to taunts.  Likewise a more cautious or intelligent creature (bandits or other organized creatures) may have a better AI in battles finding out weak points and are very resistant to the beckonnigs of the tank.  

    Diversity in combat, love it.  we shall see.  

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,802
    Originally posted by Saerain

    There's this guy behind you who keeps stabbing you in the back with a dagger that really hurts. Meanwhile, another guy in the corner is shooting lightning bolts out of his finger tips and shocking the hell out of you. Another guy is hiding in the back healing everyone. But you are gonna focus on the one guy standing in front of you, hiding behind a shield and gently tapping you with his sword, the guy you can't seem to scratch and who isn't scratching you, because he keeps calling you names?

    Just doesn't make any sense.

    They need to take, and I suspect they are taking, a page from D&D (and not 4E). Healers did most of their healing out of combat, putting themselves at great risk if they tried to heal during combat. Wizards hid behind their more melee oriented friends, maybe using a sling or casting cantrips from time to time until the opportunity presented itself for them to really let loose with a powerful spell. Rogues either stood back and shot their bows at the enemies or hid in the shadows until the enemy passed, then jumped out to either one-shot it or, if it was engaged with a fighter, finish it off... and if they didn't finish it off, they usually got the hell out of there, afterward. Even fighter-types had to be cautious, usually using the terrain to their advantage to keep from being overwhelmed.

    All of this because any DM worth his weight in salt would not permit anyone to "tank" a mob. Even a cornered badger has the good sense to attack the weakest wolf in an effort to escape. You'd think a group of orcs would probably be smart enough to kill the guy who kept healing everyone else first as well, right?

    But back to EQN:

    I think what people concerned about losing the trinity don't realize is that if you advance the mob AI so that it can react more intelligently, it instantly invalidates the holy trinity. Any reasonably conscious thing will go after the caster or the healer, no matter what the tank does. The tank is pointless to attack in PvP and so he should be in PvE. The tank will then go roll something else because he's useless. In the end, the only class that will be left is the one that can survive the best. The others will mostly go unplayed and the game will pretty much suck.

    This is why the holy trinity has lasted so long, I think. It's the system that—so long as mobs are morons—manages to maintain a balance across the classes.

    If you're going to abolish the holy trinity, you need to boost mob AI, and vice versa. But you will also have to design classes that are equally compelling because each is better than the others at some essential activity. Maybe one class is the best at melee damage.  Another the best at ranged damage. Another the best at conditions, another at buffs and still another at control.  Each class should probably have a different weakness, too. With this kind of design, all the classes are essential for taking down a "boss".

    As for whether this paradigm is fun, though, of course, we won't really know until someone tries it. All that GW2 managed to show is that removing the trinity without buffing the AI and truly diversifying the classes just isn't that much fun. But it doesn't mean that removing the holy trinity can't work—it only shows that their approach to doing so doesn't.

    This is evolution, guys. It's innovation. If you want to advance, you have to experiment. Edison learned 100 ways not to make a light bulb before he finally got it right.

    I think too many people are putting way too much into this whole topic. !st of all, The AI as they call it is probably not all that revolutionary. Many of what it sounds like they are doing has been done before. 

    Anarchy Online was an example of a game (see highlighted in red) where healers had to be careful. Over healing would pull agro. It was actually a fun twist. Having to keep heals within a certain range. Enough to keep everyone alive but not so much as to ruin the tank's ability to manage the fight.

    I see this "AI" doing something like that. Where everyone will be able to do things that pull agro. The key will be to NOT do them if you cannot handle agro. So combat becomes a balance of what CAN I do next?  vs. what SHOULD I do next?  Of course systems like that also have issues. Like The entire group's DPS cannot exceed the tank's ability to manage it. Which in theory sounds good, but in practice, it just makes the entire encounter hinge on that tank which means anyone wishing to be a tank will have to be the highest developed character in the group. (This isn't necessarily going to be EQN's problem, It's just something that has been one in the past)

     

    Anyway, It should be very interesting to see what SoE is going to do to keep large open world encounters with dozens of informal, uncoordinated groups from deteriorating into massive "Evrey Man For himself" AOE fests where the boss mob hides behind a massive wall of summoned ads.

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