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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    You aren't understanding what I said.

    GW2 uses a hitbox, Tera uses a hitbox.

    They don't play like FPSs though where you can precisely hit in the head or the leg.

    Sure they use something.

    Point is still that the tech is already there,and now with voxel engine it could be even better.

    Shoot someone in the leg,penetrate its armor or even destroy it and with voxels players can see in real time the what happened to the leg.

    Voxels aren't some magic bullet here, and they certainly aren't new.

    What Gaia_Hunter is talking about doesn't need some contemporary or modern tech to pull off. Tech was never the problem, as we've seen it in MMOs as far back as 1999. It's part of the simplification of MMO combat, for better or for worse, that has been going on for years.  It has returned in the action RPGs (ex: Vindictus) but I don't expect to see it in MMOs outside of very basic implementation (ex: Defiance - do extra damage by shooting the glowy part).

    Yes ,tech is allready there.

    They can call realism primitive and simplified combat as new dynamic.

    But noone knows yet for sure how the game is but i take realism over absurd any day.

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
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  • calebgoldcalebgold Member UncommonPosts: 20
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

     

    So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

     

    On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

     

    Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

    Well said!!

  • ShezziShezzi Member Posts: 126

    Interesting dev comment.

     

    To be fair, I'll judge the combat when I see it.

     

    The zerg conversation is amusing since I've zerged in every game, on occasion. Usually when very familiar with the content. Haven't many of us?

     

    I admit though, that I wasn't a fan of the GW2 en masse zerg. I hope that en masse zerging might be less likely in EQNext because of the changing world and moving encounter locations. In GW2 players know where to zerg to, and in EQNext, they might not. Especially if finding encounters involves a lot of digging and tunneling first.

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Member CommonPosts: 1,122
    Colin Johanson said nearly the exact same thing before GW2. He specifically said someone could play a tank "role" or a support "role" if they wanted, but wouldn't be required. I don't trust dev TALK, I need to see this to believe anything they say at this point. 

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
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  • TazlorTazlor Member UncommonPosts: 864
    I find it hilarious how all the sheep got behind this statement. The instant this statement was heard, BAM, it became the new anti-trinity argument. "Well, the trinity only works because of poor AI." Ya, because you know, some developer said so. The game hasn't even been released yet, but apparently it's already proven to work. GW2 hype bandwagon, anyone?
  • RaquisRaquis Member UncommonPosts: 1,009

    I love everything about the new mmo game slyle of everquest next,

    can not wait to get my grubby hands on it-thanks for changing the boring mmo game style of old.

    any one that does not like the future of mmo gaming go and crowd fund the old style.

  • StrangerousStrangerous Member Posts: 165

    Just as I feared, GW2 style grouping.

    Yawn.

  • calebgoldcalebgold Member UncommonPosts: 20
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by EvolvedMonky

    If theres no need for trinity then the AI is dumb. Sorry but in RL combat we use roles (didnt want to say trinity cause medics dont have magical healing powers).

    When I was in the army they told us we dont fight unless its 3 to 1 odds.  And certain wepons count as a number of people. For instance if you have 3 soldiers carrying a m16 or m4 and the opposition has a SAW or any other heavy automatic/stationary machine gun. You would retreat cause the odds are even. And when your against a SAW or a 50 CAL who do you think everyone is going to try to take out???  M203 has the role of flushing out combatants or killing a large clustered group (which if they had any training they would be spread out). Having defined roles or purpose in combat is the point of having a Team.   To cover for the weakness of specializing in a role and also having  that specialization when you need it oppose to everyone being decent at everything and one big zerg fest with large amounts of casualties. 

    If im some evil badass orc im not going to attack some random guy who hits me in a group.  Im going after the guy throwing giant fireballs up my @55 or the guy whose stoping me from killing everyone by healing his teammates. Just like in pvp only a tard ignores the healer and goes for the guy with the sword and board.

    This is where Agrro comes in to cover up the innate stupidity of AI. Now the problem with older systems is it uses a cheesy point system to control the AI, which made it realy easy.

    If it was me I would just stick to the trinity and dont add in aggro management but give tanks the ability to lite CC to control the mobs movement and damage interupts (like jumping infront of the attack) to tank for the squishies. But also give Mobs tools to throw some chaos into the pull.

    Best group encounters I had was usualy not haveing a tank but a off-tank class up front and just handling the madness that insues. Strong healing abilities; strong Mezz and forget CC; and easy, use this tank ability to have 100% agro is what makes trinity systems easy mode.

    I agree with everything you say BUT the first sentence. It should read 'if there's A need for the trinity, then the AI is dumb', not 'if there's no need for the trinity...'.

    Other than that I mostly agree. Real combat isn't that simple or structured. You assess targets based on how much danger they pose to your team, and you generally go for the highest priority targets first (unless there's a damn good reason you can't).

    Problem w/ tanks & healers is the linear threat system. However, with games like GW2 you have more of what you're talking about, but people complain because its 'too chaotic'. Personally, I prefer more realistic combat mechanics, and I enjoy the challenge of actually having to control a fight with practical skills; instead of via some extremely arbitrary, linear threat meter. You also have to consider that in a more realistic combat system, healing has to be made more limited for balance reasons. The main reason healers had such potent heals in traditional trinity games was because the damage was mostly focused on 1 or 2 people.

    There is a lot of talk about REAL combat.

    These are games with spells and monsters. There is no REAL about it. If you can have a spell that casts a fireball why can't I have one that makes the bad guy think I'm the biggest threat?

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Colin Johanson said nearly the exact same thing before GW2. He specifically said someone could play a tank "role" or a support "role" if they wanted, but wouldn't be required. I don't trust dev TALK, I need to see this to believe anything they say at this point. 

    Agree. Ask yourself, how likely is it that they will come out and say: Ok yeah DPS is really the only role we have that is effective in this system, but we don't want to change it.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KuanshuKuanshu Member Posts: 272

    Couldn't believe this thread was 35 pages until I started skimming through it....this is only one of the many threads concerning the long awaited demise of the Holy Trinity.

    Are people really this stuck on the Trinity?

    Imagine this for a moment: MOB AI wherein MOBs were repeatedly duped (well past ad nauseum) into attacking one target whilst another remained unscathed and tended to heals; meanwhile DPS is systematically unloading their arsenal into the MOB no matter how collosal, formidable, notorious, etc...the MOB would concentrate all of its attacks to the intended target and the fight was often over before it began...

    Booooooooring!

    No wonder PvP in MMORPGs has such a following and is often held in contempt, often by those who have enjoyed years knowing their role, so to speak

    Guess I could never settle into a role and was always dismayed by many aspects of PvE, yet tolerated much of it when it came to be geared well enough to participate in PvP, as there are many of us who prefer a real challenge against a real opponent who isn't so easily duped

    I really felt for the MOBs over the years, as they were nothing but static parts of the scenery, as even wandering MOBs had a specific area they navigated for years

    Immersion is a word that has yet to truly manifest in a MMORPG

    I will admit the action combat sequences previewed in the Debut were pretty out of sync as the unreactive/unresponsive MOBs were being mowed down without recourse or hardly any regard for that matter...

    Alot of talk about ZERGs going around as this is a strategy often utilized in large scale PvP; I for one would surely welcome an organized ZERG comprised of the indigenous MOBs in the area. A seige of the sorts on the deserters who left the lands in ruin and chaos as they bowed down to the might of the dragons who once reigned in the lands untamed.

    I watched "After Earth" and it was interesting when they showed how the earth was after 1000 years of non occupation by humans. Humans regarded Earth as a quarantined planet where all life was considered a hostile threat and even the planet itself was considered uninhabitable.

    Until more information comes our way guess this period will be a transition period of sorts as there is no doubt in my mind people will play and enjoy whatever SOE brings forth as much of all of this is much more interesting then the old rehash of dumbed down game mechanics

  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race. what i would like to see them do is instead of making it were you fight one mob at a time you will fight packs of mobs. lets face it, its very unepic to have to split pull one orc at a time because getting more than one will wipe the group.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 2,985
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

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  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    The thing that is primitive is action combat.It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time. So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market. On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community. Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

    Post of the day! (Tuesday, that is). Well said.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
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  • termsytermsy Member Posts: 100
    Originally posted by Ecoces
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

     

    If this game had Darksouls combat, I would be so in love.

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359

    Been thinking about this and thought of an interesting tie in to the whole 'A life of consequence'.

    For example. Say your character has killed a lot of Orcs. Orcs might recognise you and part of their AI may mean that they Really want to kill you. So if you were in a group that is fighting Orcs and one of the Orcs recognises you they would want to focus on you irrespective of other combat decisions. The whole idea of mobs having sets of motivations, not just the simple ones like kill the healer could bring an entire new slant on how combat works. If your group recognises that the Orcs are targeting you then tactically that can be used to put the Orcs into bad situations simply by using the mage as bait.

     

    I can't wait till we finally get to see their AI in play and see how it works.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

    Let's all go to the Disco tonight ...dance the night away under the bright lights

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Bad.dog
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

    Let's all go to the Disco tonight ...dance the night away under the bright lights

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              say goodbye 

                   say goodbye

     

     

     

    ....

     

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  • GrailerGrailer Member UncommonPosts: 893
    Originally posted by termsy
    Originally posted by Ecoces
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

     

    If this game had Darksouls combat, I would be so in love.

     

    It appears BLACK DESERT will have darksouls type combat , it also looks better than EQN .

    All EQN has going for it is that you can dig a hole in the ground .

     

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by Grailer

    All EQN has going for it is that you can dig a hole in the ground .

    Man, Minecraft was such an unpopular game, it didn't sell at all and doesn't have a gigantic community.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Member Posts: 338
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kuppa
     

    They will probably have tons of "things" that can happen. They just assemble them differently, after a while we will probably notice the trick. Same with AI, there is a always a number of patterns that we will catch up to quickly.

    Which will mean the system is working whether it's scripted or behavior based on "wants and needs", people are figuring out the strategy behind it. That's the problem many seem to find in GW2, there's (according to them) no strategy involved it's just chaos. Hence creating a zerg mentality/feeling/

    That ends up being the same thing. After a bit people know what happens, there is no "intelligent" system coming up with things. It just picks from the different preset scenarios and throws them at the players. This is NOT what many are thinking when they talk about EQNext, they expect a ton more. And the AI, I'm sure players are expecting it to be like humans but I'm pretty sure that is far from reality.

    Not exactly, like my example I stated earlier, rather than scripting they could use habits and behavior, that leaves room for different scenarios to pan out. Like say Goblins have a tendency to go after healers, yet when angered (certain skill, taunt like mechanics, certain type of metal hitting it etc..) it could change tactics. It's similar to a trinity, yet not exactly based on dice rolls and a skill that wins affections. It would be based on habit rather than script. IF it's similar I don't see what the problem is, as most complaining about the GW2 similarity, seem to want the trinity anyway.

    I'm just going along with them saying it requires a different approach.

     

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

     

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah Member UncommonPosts: 325
    The trinity is old news and needs to go. The problem is that the current crop of developers have proven that they lack the ability to do anything other than what someone else has done.

    What we need is an evolution of tactical play with hybridized roles. You can choose to do nothing but heal. You can choose to do nothing but damage. You can choose to combine every role but not master any one.

    In my opinion the so called trinity is inversely proportional to tactical combat. One person pulls, one person tanks, another cc, and another heals. We all know our strict role so now let's walk through all encounters with ease.

    I prefer a game where in a group several people can heal others and some can self heal. Several people deal damage and cc. Several people tank. Seriously what's better, one person absorbing all the punishment or 2 to 3 people splitting it up between them.

    I want chaotic encounters where people have to think on their feet and not static trinity encounters where oh noes we need this specific class because he is the only one that can reduce this stat and allow us to win.
  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by loopback1199

     

     

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

     

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

    Humans are just a lot, I mean a LOT, of scripted choice paths....have enough of them and how would you tell the difference?

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor Member UncommonPosts: 250
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    Dooooooooomed! ....that is all, move along!

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