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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • zwei2zwei2 Member Posts: 361
    hype... hot, exciting air with a tingling scent of strawberry...

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    So are you guys comparing Open world game play with confined instances?

    Next you going to compare professional LoL/Dota 2 with pub LoL/Dota 2.

    EQN will have no "confined instances" like you have in past games.. that is a confirmed FACT..  it's all open world

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    So are you guys comparing Open world game play with confined instances?

    Next you going to compare professional LoL/Dota 2 with pub LoL/Dota 2.

    EQN will have no "confined instances" like you have in past games.. that is a confirmed FACT..  it's all open world

    And you think he was saying EQN has instances?...

    image
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,364
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    Best Champion Farm Spot.

    GW2 is filled with players that are all about farming shit from Champions as fast as possible and the best way to do this is join a zerg. They don't want something challenging, they want to make "money". 

    These people would find the fastest way to make money in any MMOs. It's all about the farming/effort ratio.

  • KroganKrogan Member Posts: 304

    The issue with GW2 was indeed the zergy nature of the combat, this was highlighted with far too many teleport/fast movement type abilities and lack of collision playing a role in combat.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • furbansfurbans Member UncommonPosts: 968

    Hype garbage is all this AI talk is.  Just like how everyone bought Rift's "Dynamic" events or GW2's DEs having "impact" on the world.

    Until they actual PROVE and SHOW that the holy trinity is obsolete with this new AI everything they say is utter and total hype BS.

  • MaznukMaznuk Member Posts: 3

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Yes D..  I took his reply as comparing GW2 zerg farms is not the same as EQN "instances"..  Because in non restrictive open world fights, it will always end with ZERGFEST..  That is why in open worlds where it becomes 20 v 1 or whatever group size, the trinity is a waste of time.. There is limited strategy in open zone fighting like GW2 has.. I don't see EQN being any different..
  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Maznuk

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

    And in WoW you do?

    Dynamic Events are GW2 open world activities. Quests are WoW open world activities. Are you saying you need to talk to do quests in WoW?

    And dungeons in WoW? The tank leads, and if you aren't the tank you follow him around.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Well ,the tech is allready out.

    Imagine football mmo,who wants 500vs500 football game anyways.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Maznuk

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

    And in WoW you do?

    We used to.. before WoW nerfed the hell out of role playing and it became nothing more then a AOE mob hunt.. 

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Well ,the tech is allready out.

    Imagine football mmo,who wants 500vs500 football game anyways.

     

    First Person Shooters have been using aiming online for ages, way before WoT, and they are still going for 32vs32 tops. Maybe some 64vs64 here and there.

    Then in a MMORPG you have mobs, you have quests and Dynamic Events scripts,etc.

    The tech is here for small numbers but MMORPGs are about big numbers.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Maznuk

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

    And in WoW you do?

    We used to.. before WoW nerfed the hell out of role playing and it became nothing more then a AOE mob hunt.. 

    Imagine if you had to manually party for quests in WoW.

    Everyone would level (if they don't already) by doing dungeons.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • NaralNaral Member UncommonPosts: 748
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Could swear it stared in pen and paper games...could also swear it made for co-dependent SOCIAL gameplay...

    Yeah, somewhere along the line that baby got thrown out with the bathwater. Not sure why or how, but it seems like every new MMORPG does as much to cater to the solo player as the grouplover, sometimes even more.

    I understand wanting to get the largest slice of the demographic imaginable--the companies need to make money--I just wish that devs had said early on, we are making these games for groups of people to play together, codependently. If you don't like it, you need to find another genre. *That's* what I loved about EQ1 back in the day. I grouped with more people in a week then than I do in a year now in MMORPGs, unless you count the social network destroying WoW Dungeon Finder.

    Oh well...

    As to the lack of trinity? I loved the notion when GW2 announced it, but it was a terrible result in that game. I am willing to give EQN the benefit of the doubt, but I am not optimistic, "new, revolutionary AI" or not. I guess time will tell.

  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Well ,the tech is allready out.

    Imagine football mmo,who wants 500vs500 football game anyways.

     

    First Person Shooters have been using aiming online for ages, way before WoT, and they are still going for 32vs32 tops. Maybe some 64vs64 here and there.

    Then in a MMORPG you have mobs, you have quests and Dynamic Events scripts,etc.

    The tech is here for small numbers but MMORPGs are about big numbers.

    Sure.

     

    <@Brannoc>; *Timothy* Will Fallen Earth use a hitbox to calculate damage or will it be rock, paper, scissors based like Planetside? 
    <@FELee>; Fallen Earth uses hit boxes, skills, weapons, and armor to calculate damage. Base damage is determined by weapon and is modified by hit location and Rifle/Pistol/Melee vs. Dodge/Melee Defense and is then modified by armor. So it's toally FPS in hit determination and a mixture of FPS and RPG in damage determination.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • sirphobossirphobos Member UncommonPosts: 620
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    Best Champion Farm Spot.

    GW2 is filled with players that are all about farming shit from Champions as fast as possible and the best way to do this is join a zerg. They don't want something challenging, they want to make "money". 

    These people would find the fastest way to make money in any MMOs. It's all about the farming/effort ratio.

    And I have a problem with if anything resembling this finds its way into EQ:N.  In classic Everquest you would never find a place where you had a huge group of people mindlessly spamming attacks without any danger or coordination because the combat actually required thinking and teamwork.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Well ,the tech is allready out.

    Imagine football mmo,who wants 500vs500 football game anyways.

     

    First Person Shooters have been using aiming online for ages, way before WoT, and they are still going for 32vs32 tops. Maybe some 64vs64 here and there.

    Then in a MMORPG you have mobs, you have quests and Dynamic Events scripts,etc.

    The tech is here for small numbers but MMORPGs are about big numbers.

    Sure.

     

    <@Brannoc>; *Timothy* Will Fallen Earth use a hitbox to calculate damage or will it be rock, paper, scissors based like Planetside? 
    <@FELee>; Fallen Earth uses hit boxes, skills, weapons, and armor to calculate damage. Base damage is determined by weapon and is modified by hit location and Rifle/Pistol/Melee vs. Dodge/Melee Defense and is then modified by armor. So it's toally FPS in hit determination and a mixture of FPS and RPG in damage determination.

     

    You aren't understanding what I said.

    GW2 uses a hitbox, Tera uses a hitbox.

    They don't play like FPSs though where you can precisely hit in the head or the leg.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 2600k@4.6GHz and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Well ,the tech is allready out.

    Imagine football mmo,who wants 500vs500 football game anyways.

     

    First Person Shooters have been using aiming online for ages, way before WoT, and they are still going for 32vs32 tops. Maybe some 64vs64 here and there.

    Then in a MMORPG you have mobs, you have quests and Dynamic Events scripts,etc.

    The tech is here for small numbers but MMORPGs are about big numbers.

    Sure.

     

    <@Brannoc>; *Timothy* Will Fallen Earth use a hitbox to calculate damage or will it be rock, paper, scissors based like Planetside? 
    <@FELee>; Fallen Earth uses hit boxes, skills, weapons, and armor to calculate damage. Base damage is determined by weapon and is modified by hit location and Rifle/Pistol/Melee vs. Dodge/Melee Defense and is then modified by armor. So it's toally FPS in hit determination and a mixture of FPS and RPG in damage determination.

     

    You aren't understanding what I said.

    GW2 uses a hitbox, Tera uses a hitbox.

    They don't play like FPSs though where you can precisely hit in the head or the leg.

    Sure they use something.

    Point is still that the tech is already there,and now with voxel engine it could be even better.

    Shoot someone in the leg,penetrate its armor or even destroy it and with voxels players can see in real time the what happened to the leg.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • MaznukMaznuk Member Posts: 3
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Maznuk

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

    And in WoW you do?

    Dynamic Events are GW2 open world activities. Quests are WoW open world activities. Are you saying you need to talk to do quests in WoW?

    And dungeons in WoW? The tank leads, and if you aren't the tank you follow him around.

    Well, you are 100% correct.  Since the addition of the dungeon finder you rarely speak to anyone else in your party.  I honestly believe it has more to do with the cross-server issue more than just being a pug.  If they were people from your server that you had seen out in the world that sense of "community" is a little stronger.  

     

  • EvolvedMonkyEvolvedMonky Member Posts: 549

    If theres no need for trinity then the AI is dumb. Sorry but in RL combat we use roles (didnt want to say trinity cause medics dont have magical healing powers).

    When I was in the army they told us we dont fight unless its 3 to 1 odds.  And certain wepons count as a number of people. For instance if you have 3 soldiers carrying a m16 or m4 and the opposition has a SAW or any other heavy automatic/stationary machine gun. You would retreat cause the odds are even. And when your against a SAW or a 50 CAL who do you think everyone is going to try to take out???  M203 has the role of flushing out combatants or killing a large clustered group (which if they had any training they would be spread out). Having defined roles or purpose in combat is the point of having a Team.   To cover for the weakness of specializing in a role and also having  that specialization when you need it oppose to everyone being decent at everything and one big zerg fest with large amounts of casualties. 

     

    If im some evil badass orc im not going to attack some random guy who hits me in a group.  Im going after the guy throwing giant fireballs up my @55 or the guy whose stoping me from killing everyone by healing his teammates. Just like in pvp only a tard ignores the healer and goes for the guy with the sword and board.

    This is where Agrro comes in to cover up the innate stupidity of AI. Now the problem with older systems is it uses a cheesy point system to control the AI, which made it realy easy.

    If it was me I would just stick to the trinity and dont add in aggro management but give tanks the ability to lite CC to control the mobs movement and damage interupts (like jumping infront of the attack) to tank for the squishies. But also give Mobs tools to throw some chaos into the pull.

    Best group encounters I had was usualy not haveing a tank but a off-tank class up front and just handling the madness that insues. Strong healing abilities; strong Mezz and forget CC; and easy, use this tank ability to have 100% agro is what makes trinity systems easy mode.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    You aren't understanding what I said.

    GW2 uses a hitbox, Tera uses a hitbox.

    They don't play like FPSs though where you can precisely hit in the head or the leg.

    Sure they use something.

    Point is still that the tech is already there,and now with voxel engine it could be even better.

    Shoot someone in the leg,penetrate its armor or even destroy it and with voxels players can see in real time the what happened to the leg.

    Voxels aren't some magic bullet here, and they certainly aren't new.

    What Gaia_Hunter is talking about doesn't need some contemporary or modern tech to pull off. Tech was never the problem, as we've seen it in MMOs as far back as 1999. It's part of the simplification of MMO combat, for better or for worse, that has been going on for years.  It has returned in the action RPGs (ex: Vindictus) but I don't expect to see it in MMOs outside of very basic implementation (ex: Defiance - do extra damage by shooting the glowy part).

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by EvolvedMonky

    If theres no need for trinity then the AI is dumb. Sorry but in RL combat we use roles (didnt want to say trinity cause medics dont have magical healing powers).

     

    Sure there are roles - you are a medic (but you still get a gun), you are a sapper (still get a gun), you are a marksman, you are light infantry, mechanized infantry, etc. That is your role.

    But suddenly, in MMORPGs that isn't enough - on top of being a Mage you are a DPS, on top of being a Paladin you are a tank.

    And apparently if your game doesn't have a tank/healer/dps holy trinity of roles, that means all the classes are the same as if in WoW, that has a holy trinity of roles a Mage and a Warlock or a Warrior and a Dead Knight are the same since they can play the same role.

    So there is the trinity, which encompass healing, dealing damage, absorbing/avoiding damage, support, crowd control, and then there is the holy trinity which basically means each character can only do 1 single thing during a battle.

    GW2 has trinity but it doesn't have the holy trinity since every character will at least do damage/healing/damage absorption during a single fight.

    So lets not mix the two - one is what happens in battle, the other is the clear division of who does what and you can only do that.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by EvolvedMonky

    If theres no need for trinity then the AI is dumb. Sorry but in RL combat we use roles (didnt want to say trinity cause medics dont have magical healing powers).

    When I was in the army they told us we dont fight unless its 3 to 1 odds.  And certain wepons count as a number of people. For instance if you have 3 soldiers carrying a m16 or m4 and the opposition has a SAW or any other heavy automatic/stationary machine gun. You would retreat cause the odds are even. And when your against a SAW or a 50 CAL who do you think everyone is going to try to take out???  M203 has the role of flushing out combatants or killing a large clustered group (which if they had any training they would be spread out). Having defined roles or purpose in combat is the point of having a Team.   To cover for the weakness of specializing in a role and also having  that specialization when you need it oppose to everyone being decent at everything and one big zerg fest with large amounts of casualties. 

    If im some evil badass orc im not going to attack some random guy who hits me in a group.  Im going after the guy throwing giant fireballs up my @55 or the guy whose stoping me from killing everyone by healing his teammates. Just like in pvp only a tard ignores the healer and goes for the guy with the sword and board.

    This is where Agrro comes in to cover up the innate stupidity of AI. Now the problem with older systems is it uses a cheesy point system to control the AI, which made it realy easy.

    If it was me I would just stick to the trinity and dont add in aggro management but give tanks the ability to lite CC to control the mobs movement and damage interupts (like jumping infront of the attack) to tank for the squishies. But also give Mobs tools to throw some chaos into the pull.

    Best group encounters I had was usualy not haveing a tank but a off-tank class up front and just handling the madness that insues. Strong healing abilities; strong Mezz and forget CC; and easy, use this tank ability to have 100% agro is what makes trinity systems easy mode.

    I agree with everything you say BUT the first sentence. It should read 'if there's A need for the trinity, then the AI is dumb', not 'if there's no need for the trinity...'.

    Other than that I mostly agree. Real combat isn't that simple or structured. You assess targets based on how much danger they pose to your team, and you generally go for the highest priority targets first (unless there's a damn good reason you can't).

    Problem w/ tanks & healers is the linear threat system. However, with games like GW2 you have more of what you're talking about, but people complain because its 'too chaotic'. Personally, I prefer more realistic combat mechanics, and I enjoy the challenge of actually having to control a fight with practical skills; instead of via some extremely arbitrary, linear threat meter. You also have to consider that in a more realistic combat system, healing has to be made more limited for balance reasons. The main reason healers had such potent heals in traditional trinity games was because the damage was mostly focused on 1 or 2 people.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519

    Calling aggro/trinity primitive is the equivalent of calling your coding ability primitive.  Aggro system AI is nothing more than a foundation upon which you build AI.  Most games have infantile threat management systems like WoW, while other games like EQ1 have never been paralleled in mob aggro AI.  The possibilities are really endless... that is unless you're trying to sell a bunch of ignorant gamers on a new system by insulting the old ones while you replace them.


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