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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

AceshighhhhAceshighhhh Member Posts: 185

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

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Comments

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Member Posts: 848
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.
  • DuvarisDuvaris Member UncommonPosts: 127
    Agreed and well said. I for one am looking forward to playing EQN and seeing how they tackle this in game.
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

     

    So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

     

    On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

     

    Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,103
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.

     

    You can't get away from people mashing buttons like no tomorrow.


  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

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  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.
     

    EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none, and the reason is the trinity system and the dependency and controlled and strategic combat it creates.

  • wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278

    People arguing against instead of considering what SoE is doing for EQNext show their inability to consider new systems.  It is a human trait really, which separates the innovators from the rest.  

    If you want a cookie-cutter role playing game, there are plenty out there.

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    Im all for improvements in combat, but many games tout their new system as being the next great thing and I've yet to see that materialize. I do hope they accomplish it.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,103
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    I disagree. In GW2 you can pull. I do all the time and if you can't I can teach you how to do it. The trinity was done because all they could do was make a boss with ultra high HP and the trinity was good for that. The trinity is from the by-gone era. Even games with the trinity become zergfests  - jeez.

     

    What time - 10 years? UO had no trinity......


  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 229

    The funny thing about GW2 is that it has aggro, it has healers, tanks and dps. It's just the mobs are so freaking shallow and stupid, that nobody needs to use strategy in PvE.
    I'm literally in game right now doing the Queensdale Champion train, and every single one of these 'champions' are walking damage sponges with a couple of easily avoidable melee attacks.

  • wizardanimwizardanim Member Posts: 278
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.
     

    EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none.

    Zerging is what killed Kerafyrm.

  • AceshighhhhAceshighhhh Member Posts: 185
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by wizardanim

    Zerging is what killed Kerafyrm.

    That's rezz zerging, that's not what we're talking about here, you can do that in action games too. That's also not how 99% of EQ works.

    Zerging related to action MMO results from the inability to control the mob and the compensation from developers by increasing armor ratings and DPS on every class.

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Member Posts: 848
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.

     

    You can't get away from people mashing buttons like no tomorrow.

     

    I just don't want GW2 type of zerg combat. It's horrible (to me).

    Please allow me to have an opinion instead of telling me I'm wrong.

    Thank you.

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

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  • AceshighhhhAceshighhhh Member Posts: 185
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.

     

    You can't get away from people mashing buttons like no tomorrow.

     

    I just don't want GW2 type of zerg combat. It's horrible (to me).

    Please allow me to have an opinion instead of telling me I'm wrong.

    Thank you.

    Definitely agree. During the panels at SOE Live, the developers stated multiple times that they don't want to remove roles from the game and are very aware of the problems in Guild Wars 2.

  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 229


    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by wizardanim Zerging is what killed Kerafyrm.
    That's rezz zerging, that's not what we're talking about here, you can do that in action games too.

    Zerging related to action MMO results from the inability to control the mob and the compensation from developers by increasing armor ratings and DPS on every class.


    It's something we discuss on the official gw2 forums all the time. Such as why does every boss mob have control immunity, massive HP and nothing else to make them any kind of challenge. PvE mob design needs to evolve badly.

  • AceshighhhhAceshighhhh Member Posts: 185
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

    What's the difference of whether or not it's PR? Doesn't that make the quote even more authentic?

    These are words from a developer working directly with the game, not some marketing tactic.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    Developers didn't create the trinity, players did.  Players will always gravitate to the most effective strategies and developers rarely know what those will be. It was the result of emergent behavior not planning. If all characters are interchangeable then the only strategy left is bring more people until you reach an artificial limit.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • infofrontinfofront Member UncommonPosts: 160
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    There's absolutely nothing about action combat that precludes pulling, or high quality tanking, healing and cc systems.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by infofront
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    There's absolutely nothing about action combat that precludes pulling, or high quality tanking, healing and cc systems.

    Oh please, I haven't seen pulling in MMO in years.

    Action MMO are a fad that will blow over once people realise it's as one dimensional as a tetris game, it's pure twitch and no strategy.

    The combat of these games is way too fast and chaotic for strategy or community to prosper.

    Their presentation of their combat was terrible, it was as one dimensional as a back-door. They even had the red boxes so the zerg warrior would know where to stand.

    Come on!

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

    What's the difference of whether or not it's PR? Doesn't that make the quote even more authentic?

    These are words from a developer working directly with the game, not some marketing tactic.

    Yes, that doesn't mean the it's true. You are assuming it will be because he is saying it. Not the first time a game has been hyped before with not so true statements.

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

    Of course it's PR, they're essentially saying wait to pass judgement, is that so hard to do?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    just pretend like your in PvP
  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Yes everyone, don't make assumptions like the one the OP is making...

    And what assumption would that be? The one based on exactly what an EQN developer stated?

    Yes, because it's not PR. We know for a fact that this is the case. 

    Of course it's PR, they're essentially saying wait to pass judgement, is that so hard to do?

    The same goes for all the folks saying their AI is more advanced than anything we have seen without having ever seen it...

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