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Jaded EQ players? Not really...more like!

cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117

Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just doesnt seem to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

Comments

  • goombz78goombz78 Member Posts: 6
    Yes, i have seen a lot of this going around. I am also an EQ 1 and EQ 2 vet since 99 and my thought process is basically this. Yes, its cartoony, yes, its disney-like, but the actual models look really lifelike, the way the cloth moves in the wind, the expressions on the face, the amazing things they can do with exaggerations of a cartoony type model will far benefit the ability to exaggerate things with a realisitic model. The ability in and of itself to exaggerate movements, or actions, or anything of that nature makes going with the cartoony model much more important for the game than to go with realistic models.  At the end of the day this is a world, a world that you want to use to escape the world youre in currently for a few hours a day. Why make it more like the one you currently live in? Lets make it fun, over the top, enjoyful and just make new friends and have fun with the amazing AI they've got set up. The ai could change the gaming industry as a whole, not just mmo's.
  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 709
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Member UncommonPosts: 311
    All I ask is that I be allowed to play a dedicated healing role and all will be well in the realm of Norrath.
  • goombz78goombz78 Member Posts: 6
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    the reason that they cant use the trinity is because the AI knows you are tricking the mob into facing a tank while others kill it from behind. The AI is smart enough to know not to stick on the tank, so therefore you cant tank and spank a fight. Also if you are attacking a raid mobs weak spot such as its left achilles tendon because you get 2x as much damage, the mob will find out how to stop you from attacking that spot, and cut it off from you to the best of its ability. I dont think a lot of you guys on here understand how amazing this AI is going to be. Its not going to be your normal fantasy mmo. The AI is gonna play us for fools, the AI might be the "new player" and completely hand it to us, we might be the mobs getting farmed instead of the countless orcs out there right now, they are going to be smart, and have capability unlike now, where they are just meatbags.

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    If there is one thing SOE has done with Both EQs and vanguard it's been putting in defensive tank abilities that are non taunt oriented...all they need to do is ramp these up some... Vanguards reactionary rescue system is a good example. Damage transference and wards are another, as well as intercepts.

    unlike the jaded GW2 fans who are claiming to be EQ fans in one sentence  and then in the next  sentence making statements like "this is SOE, they will mess it up like they always do" I being a fan and actually someone who has enjoyed their games have faith in them.

    Most of the people claiming to be old time fans sure are talking out both ends and do not sound like fans. Instead they sound like people who got burned by another game mainly GW2.

  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 709
    Originally posted by goombz78
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    the reason that they cant use the trinity is because the AI knows you are tricking the mob into facing a tank while others kill it from behind. The AI is smart enough to know not to stick on the tank, so therefore you cant tank and spank a fight. Also if you are attacking a raid mobs weak spot such as its left achilles tendon because you get 2x as much damage, the mob will find out how to stop you from attacking that spot, and cut it off from you to the best of its ability. I dont think a lot of you guys on here understand how amazing this AI is going to be. Its not going to be your normal fantasy mmo. The AI is gonna play us for fools, the AI might be the "new player" and completely hand it to us, we might be the mobs getting farmed instead of the countless orcs out there right now, they are going to be smart, and have capability unlike now, where they are just meatbags.

    Wow, you actually have seen this AI in action? Ah, no, it's only supposition. This "insanely good" AI cannot work in a different way unless they design some decision-making machine capable to actually produce its own thoughts. I'll have yet to see such a thing. Otherwise, it will still be a thing which will adapt to the players and what they do, with some random elements added.

    We had GW2 with no roles. I've seen people mass-leaving because they felt they serve no purpose. I was one of them also. For the "old, jaded" EQ players, serving a purpose was extremely important. People want to have a role. I don't want everyone to be able to be "everything" and do "everything". I want to serve a role, and that role to be needed.

    Guess we'll have to wait and see how it ends up. I am not a hater, just an "old, jaded" MMO player used to "oldschool" things, totally not attracted by this new-generation approach. I am sure that others feel the same as me, that's why I've posted here, on this specific subject, not to hate the game, just to explain why many "old-timers" will not feel the urge to play something like this.

     

  • exwinexwin Member Posts: 221

    Jaded? Maybe. 

    Overall, I am so far underwhelmed by EQN. It looks more like WoW 2 for consoles than a 3rd EQ game. I honestly hope that I'm dead wrong.

    I'm still going to check it out, but if all there is to do is GW2 and Defiance world event button mashing, I won't be staying long.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
         I'm a jaded EQ fan.. Don't get me wrong when I say that.. I don't care that SOE is making this game.. They have many games under their control from superheros to sci-fi shooters.. My issue is the marketing of this game.. It has being promoted as an EverQuest game, but only in title, as the game in it's core is NOT remotely EQ, especially EQ1.. It is deceptive and sneaky marketing as an attempt to use an existing customer base to buy their product.. SO it should be no shock to anyone that many are jaded..  If SOE put a different name on this game, and did NOT target the EQ fan base, we wouldn't be having this discussion.. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Originally posted by goombz78
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    the reason that they cant use the trinity is because the AI knows you are tricking the mob into facing a tank while others kill it from behind. The AI is smart enough to know not to stick on the tank, so therefore you cant tank and spank a fight. Also if you are attacking a raid mobs weak spot such as its left achilles tendon because you get 2x as much damage, the mob will find out how to stop you from attacking that spot, and cut it off from you to the best of its ability. I dont think a lot of you guys on here understand how amazing this AI is going to be. Its not going to be your normal fantasy mmo. The AI is gonna play us for fools, the AI might be the "new player" and completely hand it to us, we might be the mobs getting farmed instead of the countless orcs out there right now, they are going to be smart, and have capability unlike now, where they are just meatbags.

    The idea that the tank was ever meant to be some form of trickery is fallacy.  The tank was never meant to be a deceitful class, it was never meant to be the smart guy trying to pull a fast one.  The tank is supposed to be and present a very real threat.  Powerful, nasty, mean and deadly was their role so that other players could play their own.  Otherwise, the tank would just be a baker that ran up to the angry giant or orc with gnome sandwiches and his taunt would be wafting the tantalizing fragrance in it's general direction while other people stuck him in the ass with sharp pointy things.  Or even better, the tank would have been a costume artist that presented itself as a member of the opposite sex wearing provacative undergarments and doing a mating ritual.  Those are scenarios that a smart creature could see through, the tank on the other hand, was not some ploy.

    This whole argument portraying the tank as a trick is a straw dummy.  If they mean to replace the system, just replace it.  Making up stupid fictitious arguments about how they've made AI so smart they don't recognize a class designed to be a very clear and present danger is bogus.  Just show us proof of concept already, because your demo combat video at the reveal was a travesty and an embarrassment to the Everquest name.


  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 723

    "No trinity means no more waiting for a healer or tank" makes a better sound bite than "yeah were aiming for a less trinity oriented system than most but still want to encourage cooperative strategy through class differentiation". My point being sales marketing of extremes that ends up gimping a game is good reason to be wary of this type of promotion.

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Originally posted by exwin

    Jaded? Maybe. 

    Overall, I am so far underwhelmed by EQN. It looks more like WoW 2 for consoles than a 3rd EQ game. I honestly hope that I'm dead wrong.

    I'm still going to check it out, but if all there is to do is GW2 and Defiance world event button mashing, I won't be staying long.

    Please tell me in anyway its like wow? Graphics? I suppose your going to say... Well lets go back and look at EQ1s graphics I know I was there back in the day I was ok with them. They are painful to look at these days...sadly..

    and I think your speculating on button mashing...EQ1 only had 8 spell slots just like EQN guess it more closely represents EQ1 after all in gameplay.

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by goombz78
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    the reason that they cant use the trinity is because the AI knows you are tricking the mob into facing a tank while others kill it from behind. The AI is smart enough to know not to stick on the tank, so therefore you cant tank and spank a fight. Also if you are attacking a raid mobs weak spot such as its left achilles tendon because you get 2x as much damage, the mob will find out how to stop you from attacking that spot, and cut it off from you to the best of its ability. I dont think a lot of you guys on here understand how amazing this AI is going to be. Its not going to be your normal fantasy mmo. The AI is gonna play us for fools, the AI might be the "new player" and completely hand it to us, we might be the mobs getting farmed instead of the countless orcs out there right now, they are going to be smart, and have capability unlike now, where they are just meatbags.

    The idea that the tank was ever meant to be some form of trickery is fallacy.  The tank was never meant to be a deceitful class, it was never meant to be the smart guy trying to pull a fast one.  The tank is supposed to be and present a very real threat.  Powerful, nasty, mean and deadly was their role so that other players could play their own.  Otherwise, the tank would just be a baker that ran up to the angry giant or orc with gnome sandwiches and his taunt would be wafting the tantalizing fragrance in it's general direction while other people stuck him in the ass with sharp pointy things.  Or even better, the tank would have been a costume artist that presented itself as a member of the opposite sex wearing provacative undergarments and doing a mating ritual.  Those are scenarios that a smart creature could see through, the tank on the other hand, was not some ploy.

    This whole argument portraying the tank as a trick is a straw dummy.  If they mean to replace the system, just replace it.  Making up stupid fictitious arguments about how they've made AI so smart they don't recognize a class designed to be a very clear and present danger is bogus.  Just show us proof of concept already, because your demo combat video at the reveal was a travesty and an embarrassment to the Everquest name.

    With the right defensive skills I would say you don't need taunts to tank. Rescues like vanguard had. Damage transference. Shield blocks and intercepts. Wards or reactive heal buffs. Trickery to get past an AI is not needed.

    SOE. has stated that certain classes will be better in certain roles.  However your not forced into a roll due to allowing for more flexibility if you so choose. What is so hard about understanding that?..

  • asdarasdar Member UncommonPosts: 662

    I'm getting so I'm looking forward to the game as an old EQ and EQ2 fan.

    The things I like best that are all EQ is that we'll be building the world. Not only will Qeynos be the city you were born in, it'll be the city you built.

    I like the concept of vertical levels from up in the air to down in the lava, and I like they they said that the difficulty isn't necessarily tied to a vertical level.

    I don't see any way to not like the AI, except maybe people who loved to camp and now you might have to look around for somewhere to camp.

    I like the horizontal progression and that classes are out there.

    As an old EQ'r not having a healer is just wrong. They waffled a lot, but they said right out that it won't be a part of the game. That whole concept seems wrong to me and counter to being EQ. Pretty much any of the original EQ classes not being in the game seems that way to me.

    That said I'm not against changing the way those classes work. Instead of getting so much protection let the AI mobs be smart enough to attack the healer. I'm good with that. I played GW1 that was PvP and they almost always attacked the healer first. Bring it on, I'll heal and run and be happy, but don't delete my class.

    Asdar

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by goombz78
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    Old time EQ1 and EQ2 fan here as well as Vanguard fan. All this talk of jaded  EQ fans Just does t see to be correct. I know a bunch of old EQ vets that are either interested in what's coming just to Experiance a new Norrath. Or just not really into MMOs at all anymore, and even a few of those  people are talking about possibly trying out EQN just because its Norrath. The only gripe I have heard from a few is its a bit cartoony usually followed up with a "but it still looks better than our old EQ"

    Now I realize that's not the case with everyone, however I'm seeing more evidence of jaded GW2  players than anything else. Anyone else noticing this?

    Well, when one takes their game and turns it into 'GW2 meets The Lion King", i see it as a normal reaction. But that's only the first impression, it's too soon to tell how things will turn out. Many people want a classic game improved with new ideas and some better graphics... not this cartoony-like new generation game with "action combat", "no aggro/taunt mechanics", "healer/tank is not needed", "multiclass"  and stuff like that. The unique class you were playing is a huge part of what made EQ unique, in my opinion.

    the reason that they cant use the trinity is because the AI knows you are tricking the mob into facing a tank while others kill it from behind. The AI is smart enough to know not to stick on the tank, so therefore you cant tank and spank a fight. Also if you are attacking a raid mobs weak spot such as its left achilles tendon because you get 2x as much damage, the mob will find out how to stop you from attacking that spot, and cut it off from you to the best of its ability. I dont think a lot of you guys on here understand how amazing this AI is going to be. Its not going to be your normal fantasy mmo. The AI is gonna play us for fools, the AI might be the "new player" and completely hand it to us, we might be the mobs getting farmed instead of the countless orcs out there right now, they are going to be smart, and have capability unlike now, where they are just meatbags.

    The idea that the tank was ever meant to be some form of trickery is fallacy.  The tank was never meant to be a deceitful class, it was never meant to be the smart guy trying to pull a fast one.  The tank is supposed to be and present a very real threat.  Powerful, nasty, mean and deadly was their role so that other players could play their own.  Otherwise, the tank would just be a baker that ran up to the angry giant or orc with gnome sandwiches and his taunt would be wafting the tantalizing fragrance in it's general direction while other people stuck him in the ass with sharp pointy things.  Or even better, the tank would have been a costume artist that presented itself as a member of the opposite sex wearing provacative undergarments and doing a mating ritual.  Those are scenarios that a smart creature could see through, the tank on the other hand, was not some ploy.

    This whole argument portraying the tank as a trick is a straw dummy.  If they mean to replace the system, just replace it.  Making up stupid fictitious arguments about how they've made AI so smart they don't recognize a class designed to be a very clear and present danger is bogus.  Just show us proof of concept already, because your demo combat video at the reveal was a travesty and an embarrassment to the Everquest name.

    With the right defensive skills I would say you don't need taunts to tank. Rescues like vanguard had. Damage transference. Shield blocks and intercepts. Wards or reactive heal buffs. Trickery to get past an AI is not needed.

    SOE. has stated that certain classes will be better in certain roles.  However your not forced into a roll due to allowing for more flexibility if you so choose. What is so hard about understanding that?..

    Words are not hard to understand, but words only substantiated by a combat video demonstrating all the aforementioned problems in a combat system lacking threat generation is not a good start.

    My pessimism will be diminished when they can present valid proof of concept.  Until then I will continue to dismiss their grand claims of an action combat with [insert buzzwords] without the dedicated roles that have served as a solid foundation of logic and AI for combat in the past.  We've heard it before, and seen it flop every time its been attempted.  Action combat for the sake of action does not make for an experience most players will want to play for years to come.  Otherwise, games like EQ2 would have moved to a system more like Diablo a long time ago.


  • goombz78goombz78 Member Posts: 6
    You guys that have replied and bashed me saying that trickery is not used and needed for a real tank. Are you dreaming? that's basically all you've been in ALMOST every game that has used trinity since the beginning of time. A TRICK, but you would rather come on here and badmouth me for actually being realistic about it. And whoever it was that said this great AI had to have another machine to do all this junk, all I have to say to you is to go learn some programming classes. Damn near anything you can imagine is programmable. It just takes a great mind, steady hands, and not to freak up your syntax so bad that you cannot ever compile your code. Storybricks just did what nobody else wanted to do, and grinded out a great program that could improve the ai THAT MUCH.
  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Good post Goomz..

    You mention the storybricks, and I was looking briefly at that and pretty much all it is, is a complex flowchart.. which we all know is a series of yes and no's..  What worries me is the old wisdom (which was used in a Star Trek movie), "The more you overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain".. and let me tell ya.. there is so much truth in that..  I wonder how many "hot fixes" this game is going to have in the first few months, because of coding?  Now, is the Storybricks only for NPC's, or combat mobs as well?  I don't think that was discussed, was it?

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,988

    I'm not really sure how to feel at this point. The minecraft aspect is really the only thing that looks interesting to me at this point. Combat looks like it's going the direction I hoped it wouldn't, but it's something i'm willing to wait and see if they can keep it from becoming what GW2 did.

     

    FFXIV suddenly looks more appealing oddly enough.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130

    I played EQ and Vanguard and Vindictus.

    I liked Vindictus, but I know it has no community like EQ and Vanguard.

  • goombz78goombz78 Member Posts: 6
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good post Goomz..

    You mention the storybricks, and I was looking briefly at that and pretty much all it is, is a complex flowchart.. which we all know is a series of yes and no's..  What worries me is the old wisdom (which was used in a Star Trek movie), "The more you overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain".. and let me tell ya.. there is so much truth in that..  I wonder how many "hot fixes" this game is going to have in the first few months, because of coding?  Now, is the Storybricks only for NPC's, or combat mobs as well?  I don't think that was discussed, was it?

    They said the AI was included in all AI in the game, including player owned pets, the pets will actually not have to be commanded near as much. Don't get me wrong, I do not think they are going to have an easy time fixing the bugs, especially at first. I just think that they are going to do what they said as far as the AI goes and in the end it will work as intended.

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