I keep hearing how this "smart AI" is going to be ALL that and a bag of chips.. I don't see it.. In fact if that is true, it will be a detriment.. Conceptually, if the mobs AI is to mimic a human, then Mr Squishy and/or caster will be targeted.. So when you and your friend run up to 3 mobs, all 3 should FOCUS on the easiest target right? Mr Squishy is taking a dirt nap.. So how smart do you thinks these mobs will truly be? My guess, not any smarter then the past, just dressed differently.. Every game works on agro management in one form or another.. It's all about the numbers.. Just because SOE uses a slightly different formula for agro management doesn't mean the mobs are smarter.. Players will eventually learn that formula and exploit it...... then what?
I would hate to be Mr Squishy when the mobs decided in their infinite AI wisdom I"m the first to die, and tanks can't do anything to pull them off me..
If they pull this off, we will (for the first time) be playing against the environment instead of against the mechanic. And yes, as with anything programmed there will be limitations but hopefully the benefits will outweigh them.
These are the most important words of your entire post. This is a huge gamble. I hope that it works, but I suspect that it will not. If SOE doesn't pull it off, the game will be a dismal failure. No matter how good the rest of the game is, people will not play a game with bad combat.
I maintain the same point that I have posted many times on these forums. Demonstrate how this new system works. Don't just tell me "the AI is good" and expect that I will be satisfied with just words. Show me, exactly, how the combat is going to work. At the very least explain to me exactly how this whole thing is going to work.
I haven't heard a single plausible explanation for how it will work without turning combat into the mindless zerging we see in GW2. What exactly is the AI going to be doing.? How do we deal with mobs that are so powerful that they can one-shot characters with poor defense? If you don't need to have tanks and healers, how do we prevent the community from devolving into a culture that will only group with you if you are in one of a small handful "acceptable" DPS specs?
Removing the Trinity creates a huge host of potential problems. I haven't heard anyone specifically address how they are going to sidestep these potential landmines. I'm all for innovation, but you need to demonstrate to me that something works before I will believe in it.
Your mindset is precisely what they're trying to avoid, and exactly what Butler was talking about when he said that they've basically spent the better part of two decades conditioning players to believe it's necessary when it's really not. Trinity gameplay, invariably, leads to very unimaginative encounter design and NPC behavior. It's served us pretty decently overall, but it's also sharply crippled the gameplay in ways that most people simply don't realize.
I will agree completely with people that are ragging on GW2 - it tried to avoid trinity, and its combat is lackluster, boring, and hilariously easy. This is not because they avoided trinity - this is because of really, really dumb NPCs combined with every character being an island combined with really unimaginative class design.
However, what they've said and what they've shown us so far only bears the most superficial resemblance to GW2. It actually has much, much more in common with TSW, if you want to get right down to it, although that game also suffered from terribly stupid NPCs.
It isn't a mindset, but a simple fact. With the trinity in place groups can form some kind of strategy to defeat a boss. How will players form a strategy when they have no idea how an enemy will react? GW2 tried this and it has failed immensely. That is not to say that non-trinity combat cannot be fun.
I thought PSO's combat was fun for non-trinity combat, but that game wasn't really an MMORPG.
Your mindset is precisely what they're trying to avoid, and exactly what Butler was talking about when he said that they've basically spent the better part of two decades conditioning players to believe it's necessary when it's really not. Trinity gameplay, invariably, leads to very unimaginative encounter design and NPC behavior. It's served us pretty decently overall, but it's also sharply crippled the gameplay in ways that most people simply don't realize.
I will agree completely with people that are ragging on GW2 - it tried to avoid trinity, and its combat is lackluster, boring, and hilariously easy. This is not because they avoided trinity - this is because of really, really dumb NPCs combined with every character being an island combined with really unimaginative class design.
However, what they've said and what they've shown us so far only bears the most superficial resemblance to GW2. It actually has much, much more in common with TSW, if you want to get right down to it, although that game also suffered from terribly stupid NPCs.
It isn't a mindset, but a simple fact. With the trinity in place groups can form some kind of strategy to defeat a boss. How will players form a strategy when they have no idea how an enemy will react? GW2 tried this and it has failed immensely. That is not to say that non-trinity combat cannot be fun.
I thought PSO's combat was fun for non-trinity combat, but that game wasn't really an MMORPG.
you don't need strategy for the trinity system.. its simple
If they pull this off, we will (for the first time) be playing against the environment instead of against the mechanic. And yes, as with anything programmed there will be limitations but hopefully the benefits will outweigh them.
These are the most important words of your entire post. This is a huge gamble. I hope that it works, but I suspect that it will not. If SOE doesn't pull it off, the game will be a dismal failure. No matter how good the rest of the game is, people will not play a game with bad combat.
I maintain the same point that I have posted many times on these forums. Demonstrate how this new system works. Don't just tell me "the AI is good" and expect that I will be satisfied with just words. Show me, exactly, how the combat is going to work. At the very least explain to me exactly how this whole thing is going to work.
I haven't heard a single plausible explanation for how it will work without turning combat into the mindless zerging we see in GW2. What exactly is the AI going to be doing.? How do we deal with mobs that are so powerful that they can one-shot characters with poor defense? If you don't need to have tanks and healers, how do we prevent the community from devolving into a culture that will only group with you if you are in one of a small handful "acceptable" DPS specs?
Removing the Trinity creates a huge host of potential problems. I haven't heard anyone specifically address how they are going to sidestep these potential landmines. I'm all for innovation, but you need to demonstrate to me that something works before I will believe in it.
-Ellessar-
Success almost by definition is always a gamble. If it was so common everybody would be successful, which isnt the case. Second I believe this is why we are in the stale place for MMORPGs to begin with. Nobody wanted to take any sort of gamble, and if they did it was so small it didn't change the core.
No one knows how the new system will work so you will have to wait and play the game like everyone else. Everything we say here is just fun conjecture. Some take it further than others. But you have to ask yourself, how can you expect anything to change and be different if you dont tryanything that tries to be different. Give this new AI a chance. Play the game then form an opinion. Or would you prefer more of the same? I for one am tired of it.
Think about it this way. Before the plane was invented people thought humans would never fly. If we took your approach you are using above in your comments gaming would never change because it seems you are bent on only accepting what you know to have worked in the past.
We need more gambling if you ask me. Lets see how this pans out.
Your mindset is precisely what they're trying to avoid, and exactly what Butler was talking about when he said that they've basically spent the better part of two decades conditioning players to believe it's necessary when it's really not. Trinity gameplay, invariably, leads to very unimaginative encounter design and NPC behavior. It's served us pretty decently overall, but it's also sharply crippled the gameplay in ways that most people simply don't realize.
I will agree completely with people that are ragging on GW2 - it tried to avoid trinity, and its combat is lackluster, boring, and hilariously easy. This is not because they avoided trinity - this is because of really, really dumb NPCs combined with every character being an island combined with really unimaginative class design.
However, what they've said and what they've shown us so far only bears the most superficial resemblance to GW2. It actually has much, much more in common with TSW, if you want to get right down to it, although that game also suffered from terribly stupid NPCs.
It isn't a mindset, but a simple fact. With the trinity in place groups can form some kind of strategy to defeat a boss. How will players form a strategy when they have no idea how an enemy will react? GW2 tried this and it has failed immensely. That is not to say that non-trinity combat cannot be fun.
I thought PSO's combat was fun for non-trinity combat, but that game wasn't really an MMORPG.
you don't need strategy for the trinity system.. its simple
tank tanks
healer heals
dps does dmg.
mob dies
Very true. But I have done that for over 20 years now. At least SOE is trying something different.
Also, are you telling me that the trinity is the ONLY way to create a good MMORPG? I think that is a limited answer and doesnt allow for something new.
I don't like GW2 for my own reasons - but I will always applaud their efforts for they did make some changes that should be in all MMORPGs going forward.
SOE isn't trying anything different.. They are only tweaking what others have done before them like TSW and GW2.. The 2 games mention fail to grab the attention of most players due to the lack of dynamic group combat.. SOE wish for us to believe they found the magic formula that others didn't know.. This has yet to be proven or shown., and as my dad would always say, "I'll believe it when I see it".. I've played GW2 long enough to compare it to WoW or Original EQ.. and by far EQ and WoW were much more dynamic and focused then GW2.. I don't see SOE improving upon GW2 that much to overcome the changes..
Originally posted by Rydeson SOE isn't trying anything different.. They are only tweaking what others have done before them like TSW and GW2.. The 2 games mention fail to grab the attention of most players due to the lack of dynamic group combat.. SOE wish for us to believe they found the magic formula that others didn't know.. This has yet to be proven or shown., and as my dad would always say, "I'll believe it when I see it".. I've played GW2 long enough to compare it to WoW or Original EQ.. and by far EQ and WoW were much more dynamic and focused then GW2.. I don't see SOE improving upon GW2 that much to overcome the changes..
Nothing different?
What other MMO uses voxel technology or features fully destructible environments?
I'm still not sure of what to make EQN, but i find it amazing how quickly people are ready to jump ship and condemn this game game over nothing.
I get the impression that EQN was scrapped originally because devs believed that GW2 would be the game to destroy WoW and they wanted to make sure they were more similar than dissimilar to GW2.
In addition to not minding the art design, I love the create / destroy abilities. But stuff being revealed is what bored me to tears in GW2. EQN announced that "raids" can be scaled down to a whopping 2 persons.. 'ho boy.
This would have make a good console game, EverQuest Journies or something .. but as a successor to the original smash hit EQ, uhhh ...
They stated it was scrapped for adding destructability and voxels. [mod edit]
Originally posted by Rydeson SOE isn't trying anything different.. They are only tweaking what others have done before them like TSW and GW2.. The 2 games mention fail to grab the attention of most players due to the lack of dynamic group combat.. SOE wish for us to believe they found the magic formula that others didn't know.. This has yet to be proven or shown., and as my dad would always say, "I'll believe it when I see it".. I've played GW2 long enough to compare it to WoW or Original EQ.. and by far EQ and WoW were much more dynamic and focused then GW2.. I don't see SOE improving upon GW2 that much to overcome the changes..
Nothing different?
What other MMO uses voxel technology or features fully destructible environments?
I'm still not sure of what to make EQN, but i find it amazing how quickly people are ready to jump ship and condemn this game game over nothing.
Are you serious? You think anyone cares about voxels and TEMPORARY destruction? Watching a door break or a stone break is NOT a game play feature I search to play.. I actually think that "Grail" is the lamest of the ones they tried to push.. Having breakable things is like adding "blood spurt" while in combat.... Really? I can pass on that graphic mechanic too.. Think about it.. When looking for a group, are you going to do this , "LFG, class that does big breaks, PST"..
Your mindset is precisely what they're trying to avoid, and exactly what Butler was talking about when he said that they've basically spent the better part of two decades conditioning players to believe it's necessary when it's really not. Trinity gameplay, invariably, leads to very unimaginative encounter design and NPC behavior. It's served us pretty decently overall, but it's also sharply crippled the gameplay in ways that most people simply don't realize.
I will agree completely with people that are ragging on GW2 - it tried to avoid trinity, and its combat is lackluster, boring, and hilariously easy. This is not because they avoided trinity - this is because of really, really dumb NPCs combined with every character being an island combined with really unimaginative class design.
However, what they've said and what they've shown us so far only bears the most superficial resemblance to GW2. It actually has much, much more in common with TSW, if you want to get right down to it, although that game also suffered from terribly stupid NPCs.
It isn't a mindset, but a simple fact. With the trinity in place groups can form some kind of strategy to defeat a boss. How will players form a strategy when they have no idea how an enemy will react? GW2 tried this and it has failed immensely. That is not to say that non-trinity combat cannot be fun.
I thought PSO's combat was fun for non-trinity combat, but that game wasn't really an MMORPG.
you don't need strategy for the trinity system.. its simple
tank tanks
healer heals
dps does dmg.
mob dies
Agreed - In the trinity system its more choreography than it is strategy.
Tank pulls here
DPS stands here
Casters over there
and Healers right here
Now everyone...
*cues music*
Jump away from the fire!
DPS is climbing higher!
Aggro is the Tanks goal,
Healers keep him full!
Now slide to the left of the room,
Casters cleanse that doom...
*end music*
Once people learn the dance, the challenge is pretty much gone. Because everyone knows that at X% boss will do attack Y and if you don't do X amount of damage within Y amount of time, he will stun the tank and murder the healers. I can't recall how many episodes of Law and Order I watched while healing/DPSing/tanking in a raid because I was bored to tears and had the dance memorized.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Give this new AI a chance. Play the game then form an opinion. Or would you prefer more of the same? I for one am tired of it.
Think about it this way. Before the plane was invented people thought humans would never fly. If we took your approach you are using above in your comments gaming would never change because it seems you are bent on only accepting what you know to have worked in the past.
Personally, when it comes to the Trinity, I prefer more of the same. I like the way the Trinity works. I enjoy the game play that the Trinity creates. I would prefer that they improve upon the existing framework of Trinity rather than replace it. In my opinion it doesn't need replacing.
I'm all for innovation and taking chances. I love the fact that EQN is embracing sandbox elements rather than theme park elements. I'm an old school SWG fanatic. I embrace those changes. In fact, I like almost everything I've heard about EQN, except for the removal of the Trinity.
I don't see removing the Trinity as innovative. I see it as destructive. In my opinion SOE is fixing something that is not broken.
If they pull this off, we will (for the first time) be playing against the environment instead of against the mechanic. And yes, as with anything programmed there will be limitations but hopefully the benefits will outweigh them.
These are the most important words of your entire post. This is a huge gamble. I hope that it works, but I suspect that it will not. If SOE doesn't pull it off, the game will be a dismal failure. No matter how good the rest of the game is, people will not play a game with bad combat.
I maintain the same point that I have posted many times on these forums. Demonstrate how this new system works. Don't just tell me "the AI is good" and expect that I will be satisfied with just words. Show me, exactly, how the combat is going to work. At the very least explain to me exactly how this whole thing is going to work.
I haven't heard a single plausible explanation for how it will work without turning combat into the mindless zerging we see in GW2. What exactly is the AI going to be doing.? How do we deal with mobs that are so powerful that they can one-shot characters with poor defense? If you don't need to have tanks and healers, how do we prevent the community from devolving into a culture that will only group with you if you are in one of a small handful "acceptable" DPS specs?
Removing the Trinity creates a huge host of potential problems. I haven't heard anyone specifically address how they are going to sidestep these potential landmines. I'm all for innovation, but you need to demonstrate to me that something works before I will believe in it.
-Ellessar-
Success almost by definition is always a gamble. If it was so common everybody would be successful, which isnt the case. Second I believe this is why we are in the stale place for MMORPGs to begin with. Nobody wanted to take any sort of gamble, and if they did it was so small it didn't change the core.
No one knows how the new system will work so you will have to wait and play the game like everyone else. Everything we say here is just fun conjecture. Some take it further than others. But you have to ask yourself, how can you expect anything to change and be different if you dont tryanything that tries to be different. Give this new AI a chance. Play the game then form an opinion. Or would you prefer more of the same? I for one am tired of it.
Think about it this way. Before the plane was invented people thought humans would never fly. If we took your approach you are using above in your comments gaming would never change because it seems you are bent on only accepting what you know to have worked in the past.
We need more gambling if you ask me. Lets see how this pans out.
I actually agree with both of you. I agree with Ellessar because EQN doesn't NEED to reinvent the wheel on combat to make people happy when they are doing so many other creative and fun things with their world. We have yet to see a "good" non-trinity system in an MMORPG and yet have seen plenty of games that took the very simplistic-to-its-core trinity and required a huge variety of strategies from players to beat the content. Simply saying that the advanced AI will make it work out is a cop-out that has been said many times before and doesn't comfort me (because I'm confident I would've loved the game with the advances they suggested WITHOUT getting rid of the trinity, which I know works). I've heard devs say similar things with AoC (more about the healers than tank+healers) and GW2 and the organized combat in both games turned out to be lame. Sure they were funner than usual when soloing but when you grouped the combat became MUCH less interesting (especially in GW2). Sure we can't judge definitively until they show us more or the game comes out but if that's how we approach everything then what's the point of forums in the first place? Ellessar makes a valid point that they are making a huge gamble that has not worked out well from our experience and are doing nothing to show us how this time it's going to work out. Any interested player should be worried about this.
On the other hand I agree with Darkhalf as well because we'd never get anywhere if gambles weren't taken. Unfortunately I think these gambles matter much more to MMO players than the other genre players because while we have been getting alot of MMO's, we really don't get as much to choose from as other genres. It takes alot of time and money to make these games and simple design mistakes (that are total dealbreakers) when the rest of the game is awesome hurts us alot more than it hurts other players. EQN is awesome except for the group combat? Crap then I gotta wait 3-4 more years for a good MMO that gets it right. I think the reason we "trinity-lovers" are so vocal and care about this so much is not because we don't like progress, but rather we haven't seen anything yet to put our worries at ease.
If they don't show their cards and release the game with crap group mechanics (like GW2 did) then we'll find out, quit and then they'll either watch their game whither away or have to go back and fix it when they could've just been honest from the start about what we'll be seeing and we can tell them upfront if we really like it or not. I just want transparency and I won't stop "complaining" till I am shown that ditching the trinity was a good decision.
Originally posted by Rydeson SOE isn't trying anything different.. They are only tweaking what others have done before them like TSW and GW2.. The 2 games mention fail to grab the attention of most players due to the lack of dynamic group combat.. SOE wish for us to believe they found the magic formula that others didn't know.. This has yet to be proven or shown., and as my dad would always say, "I'll believe it when I see it".. I've played GW2 long enough to compare it to WoW or Original EQ.. and by far EQ and WoW were much more dynamic and focused then GW2.. I don't see SOE improving upon GW2 that much to overcome the changes..
Nothing different?
What other MMO uses voxel technology or features fully destructible environments?
I'm still not sure of what to make EQN, but i find it amazing how quickly people are ready to jump ship and condemn this game game over nothing.
Are you serious? You think anyone cares about voxels and TEMPORARY destruction? Watching a door break or a stone break is NOT a game play feature I search to play.. I actually think that "Grail" is the lamest of the ones they tried to push.. Having breakable things is like adding "blood spurt" while in combat.... Really? I can pass on that graphic mechanic too.. Think about it.. When looking for a group, are you going to do this , "LFG, class that does big breaks, PST"..
Actually, destructible stuff IS a feature. To your example, blood splatter was also a "feature" back in the 90's when graphics before that once made it impossible. Ref: U7, Duke Nukem 3D. Before blood splatter there was literally nothing, just a corpse if you were lucky. Even older games didn't go so far as to even have a corpse.
You take things for granted now, but it is evident you don't know computer / video game history.
Also you confuse things you saw on your console with things proposed on an MMORPG. MMORPG's are more intensive when it comes to player / mob / environment 3D calculations, so MMORPG's are always behind. Having a MMORPG do what EQN is proposing is very cool and new. .. although I think instancing is going to be prevalent (?) .. no word
So when you get in a fight in a building a you break a chair with the smash of the 2-handed hammer.. We're going to stop, take a picture and post it on facebook and say , "This is what I broke today, booooyahhhh".. I get excited about defeating a tough boss, or escaping with my life.. but breaking a chair? No offense, but I think EQ's opening door with a click is MORE of a feature then breaking a chair.. LOL
Originally posted by Rydeson So when you get in a fight in a building a you break a chair with the smash of the 2-handed hammer.. We're going to stop, take a picture and post it on facebook and say , "This is what I broke today, booooyahhhh".. I get excited about defeating a tough boss, or escaping with my life.. but breaking a chair? No offense, but I think EQ's opening door with a click is MORE of a feature then breaking a chair.. LOL
If that was were intereaction with the environment stopped i would agree... once again someone ignores the fact that you can use the landscape to ur advantage....
What is going to be funny is when Blizzard sees this game and GW2 decline over the next few years and poof out pops their new game .They will do the holy trinity , and once again have 12-20 million subs and put these people to shame that are making single player MMO's IMO.Joke is all I can say, who the hell wants to play a game that has been out for 14 years with horrid graphics and gameplay.
The combat imo will just be very stale. The trinity provided the developers more opportunities for depth. I agree with some people saying regardless the mobs will just go for the squishy no matter what.
I've only really raided in wow but some of the hard modes(or normal,even dungeons) over the years wow has created have been very interesting. People say trinity is boring. I say it isn't. Yea the first dungeons anyone goes into might be because .. learning, but the depth a developer has at its disposal is alot. Yes the tanks press 1 to taunt every 10 sec.. the healers watch the tanks health bar.. and the dps press 1234 1234. But with great encounters you can add the 'ever person is responsible for their life or w/e' .. crap falling from the skies.. can't cast at random times .. blah blah.. if the dps were stupid and stood in fire.. yeah.. healers brought em back up.. but if it kept happening.. more depth.. the healers had to watch their mana bar.. The trinity creates great combat.. and destructibility WITH the trinity would just be awesome. Imo them taking out the trinity is a mistake. I hope i'm wrong.
If they wanted to just get rid of old tropes like taunt for agro then why didnt they just stick with that why did they need to ditch the trinity to the point of not requiring a tank and dedicated healer?
Having an intelligent AI does not mean you can't do a great tank, you just have to put just as much effort into the tank archetype as you do into the AI.
Tank being damage soaker they can do it a number of ways that are interesting and engaging they don't have to just be beefy character sheets with a taunt skill. They could have skills to block hits/projectiles for those behind them, group utility that redirects damage from your group onto the tank, interupts that keep nasty spells and skills from launching at other players and snares/lasoo/roots that position the mob to force it to attack them whether it likes to or not.
Forcing everyone to take care of their own survivabililty can be done through monster mechanics without needing to make every character in your game into an overpowered hybrid. Everyone being overpowered hybrids will destroy the need for cooperation between players dumbing down the difficulty of the game into nothing but a zerg fest on all scales. No one will talk to eachother, there wont be real guilds formed and the designers will have a hard time making the content hard/diverse without alienating even more of thier population than with the trinity system. So they just wont have difficulty/diversity on a scale larger than a party(no raids). If there are raids they will be faceroll easy for veteran players granting 0 staying power.
When good players are granted the ability to mix mash so much they will have no problem finding ways to make the game easier than they want it to be, players should not have to artifically make the game challenging they wont stick around. Players should have to bring 3-4 roles tank healer support/cc dps to a fight making those roles work in synergy is much harder than every player being a hybrid and just taking care of themselves never even needing communication or knowledge sharing, big community builders.
Your argument makes the assumption that the only way to program combat is through the trinity.
I dont know if EQN will be better but we will never find it if you cant get past the trinity as the only mechanic.
Perhaps its what you enjoy, which is fine but that opinion cant stand as fact. You also make assumptions such as characters being over powered hybrids. We dont know how character builds will be by interpreting videos and blogs.
This game is going to be for those who want something different. There are a ton of trinity based games out. If you like them or not is your issue. But I dont see the point in arguing for a standard trinity when its obviously not going to be in the game. You still have ArcheAge.
If TAUNT is removed from the game, how do squishy pet classes live if pet can't hold agro? Are pets even in the game? Assuming they are and cant' tank, they are only DPS pets, which means it's a dps zerg to kill the mob before he kills me.... RIGHT?
Comments
I keep hearing how this "smart AI" is going to be ALL that and a bag of chips.. I don't see it.. In fact if that is true, it will be a detriment.. Conceptually, if the mobs AI is to mimic a human, then Mr Squishy and/or caster will be targeted.. So when you and your friend run up to 3 mobs, all 3 should FOCUS on the easiest target right? Mr Squishy is taking a dirt nap.. So how smart do you thinks these mobs will truly be? My guess, not any smarter then the past, just dressed differently.. Every game works on agro management in one form or another.. It's all about the numbers.. Just because SOE uses a slightly different formula for agro management doesn't mean the mobs are smarter.. Players will eventually learn that formula and exploit it...... then what?
I would hate to be Mr Squishy when the mobs decided in their infinite AI wisdom I"m the first to die, and tanks can't do anything to pull them off me..
These are the most important words of your entire post. This is a huge gamble. I hope that it works, but I suspect that it will not. If SOE doesn't pull it off, the game will be a dismal failure. No matter how good the rest of the game is, people will not play a game with bad combat.
I maintain the same point that I have posted many times on these forums. Demonstrate how this new system works. Don't just tell me "the AI is good" and expect that I will be satisfied with just words. Show me, exactly, how the combat is going to work. At the very least explain to me exactly how this whole thing is going to work.
I haven't heard a single plausible explanation for how it will work without turning combat into the mindless zerging we see in GW2. What exactly is the AI going to be doing.? How do we deal with mobs that are so powerful that they can one-shot characters with poor defense? If you don't need to have tanks and healers, how do we prevent the community from devolving into a culture that will only group with you if you are in one of a small handful "acceptable" DPS specs?
Removing the Trinity creates a huge host of potential problems. I haven't heard anyone specifically address how they are going to sidestep these potential landmines. I'm all for innovation, but you need to demonstrate to me that something works before I will believe in it.
-Ellessar-
It isn't a mindset, but a simple fact. With the trinity in place groups can form some kind of strategy to defeat a boss. How will players form a strategy when they have no idea how an enemy will react? GW2 tried this and it has failed immensely. That is not to say that non-trinity combat cannot be fun.
I thought PSO's combat was fun for non-trinity combat, but that game wasn't really an MMORPG.
you don't need strategy for the trinity system.. its simple
tank tanks
healer heals
dps does dmg.
mob dies
Success almost by definition is always a gamble. If it was so common everybody would be successful, which isnt the case. Second I believe this is why we are in the stale place for MMORPGs to begin with. Nobody wanted to take any sort of gamble, and if they did it was so small it didn't change the core.
No one knows how the new system will work so you will have to wait and play the game like everyone else. Everything we say here is just fun conjecture. Some take it further than others. But you have to ask yourself, how can you expect anything to change and be different if you dont tryanything that tries to be different. Give this new AI a chance. Play the game then form an opinion. Or would you prefer more of the same? I for one am tired of it.
Think about it this way. Before the plane was invented people thought humans would never fly. If we took your approach you are using above in your comments gaming would never change because it seems you are bent on only accepting what you know to have worked in the past.
We need more gambling if you ask me. Lets see how this pans out.
Very true. But I have done that for over 20 years now. At least SOE is trying something different.
Also, are you telling me that the trinity is the ONLY way to create a good MMORPG? I think that is a limited answer and doesnt allow for something new.
I don't like GW2 for my own reasons - but I will always applaud their efforts for they did make some changes that should be in all MMORPGs going forward.
Nothing different?
What other MMO uses voxel technology or features fully destructible environments?
I'm still not sure of what to make EQN, but i find it amazing how quickly people are ready to jump ship and condemn this game game over nothing.
They stated it was scrapped for adding destructability and voxels. [mod edit]
Are you serious? You think anyone cares about voxels and TEMPORARY destruction? Watching a door break or a stone break is NOT a game play feature I search to play.. I actually think that "Grail" is the lamest of the ones they tried to push.. Having breakable things is like adding "blood spurt" while in combat.... Really? I can pass on that graphic mechanic too.. Think about it.. When looking for a group, are you going to do this , "LFG, class that does big breaks, PST"..
Just like Video and the Radio Star.
Just like that
Agreed - In the trinity system its more choreography than it is strategy.
Tank pulls here
DPS stands here
Casters over there
and Healers right here
Now everyone...
*cues music*
Jump away from the fire!
DPS is climbing higher!
Aggro is the Tanks goal,
Healers keep him full!
Now slide to the left of the room,
Casters cleanse that doom...
*end music*
Once people learn the dance, the challenge is pretty much gone. Because everyone knows that at X% boss will do attack Y and if you don't do X amount of damage within Y amount of time, he will stun the tank and murder the healers. I can't recall how many episodes of Law and Order I watched while healing/DPSing/tanking in a raid because I was bored to tears and had the dance memorized.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Personally, when it comes to the Trinity, I prefer more of the same. I like the way the Trinity works. I enjoy the game play that the Trinity creates. I would prefer that they improve upon the existing framework of Trinity rather than replace it. In my opinion it doesn't need replacing.
I'm all for innovation and taking chances. I love the fact that EQN is embracing sandbox elements rather than theme park elements. I'm an old school SWG fanatic. I embrace those changes. In fact, I like almost everything I've heard about EQN, except for the removal of the Trinity.
I don't see removing the Trinity as innovative. I see it as destructive. In my opinion SOE is fixing something that is not broken.
-Ellessar-
I actually agree with both of you. I agree with Ellessar because EQN doesn't NEED to reinvent the wheel on combat to make people happy when they are doing so many other creative and fun things with their world. We have yet to see a "good" non-trinity system in an MMORPG and yet have seen plenty of games that took the very simplistic-to-its-core trinity and required a huge variety of strategies from players to beat the content. Simply saying that the advanced AI will make it work out is a cop-out that has been said many times before and doesn't comfort me (because I'm confident I would've loved the game with the advances they suggested WITHOUT getting rid of the trinity, which I know works). I've heard devs say similar things with AoC (more about the healers than tank+healers) and GW2 and the organized combat in both games turned out to be lame. Sure they were funner than usual when soloing but when you grouped the combat became MUCH less interesting (especially in GW2). Sure we can't judge definitively until they show us more or the game comes out but if that's how we approach everything then what's the point of forums in the first place? Ellessar makes a valid point that they are making a huge gamble that has not worked out well from our experience and are doing nothing to show us how this time it's going to work out. Any interested player should be worried about this.
On the other hand I agree with Darkhalf as well because we'd never get anywhere if gambles weren't taken. Unfortunately I think these gambles matter much more to MMO players than the other genre players because while we have been getting alot of MMO's, we really don't get as much to choose from as other genres. It takes alot of time and money to make these games and simple design mistakes (that are total dealbreakers) when the rest of the game is awesome hurts us alot more than it hurts other players. EQN is awesome except for the group combat? Crap then I gotta wait 3-4 more years for a good MMO that gets it right. I think the reason we "trinity-lovers" are so vocal and care about this so much is not because we don't like progress, but rather we haven't seen anything yet to put our worries at ease.
If they don't show their cards and release the game with crap group mechanics (like GW2 did) then we'll find out, quit and then they'll either watch their game whither away or have to go back and fix it when they could've just been honest from the start about what we'll be seeing and we can tell them upfront if we really like it or not. I just want transparency and I won't stop "complaining" till I am shown that ditching the trinity was a good decision.
no raids no trinity i m out
do we realy need GW 3 already ?
Actually, destructible stuff IS a feature. To your example, blood splatter was also a "feature" back in the 90's when graphics before that once made it impossible. Ref: U7, Duke Nukem 3D. Before blood splatter there was literally nothing, just a corpse if you were lucky. Even older games didn't go so far as to even have a corpse.
You take things for granted now, but it is evident you don't know computer / video game history.
Also you confuse things you saw on your console with things proposed on an MMORPG. MMORPG's are more intensive when it comes to player / mob / environment 3D calculations, so MMORPG's are always behind. Having a MMORPG do what EQN is proposing is very cool and new. .. although I think instancing is going to be prevalent (?) .. no word
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
If that was were intereaction with the environment stopped i would agree... once again someone ignores the fact that you can use the landscape to ur advantage....
destroying bridges
creating walls out of paved stones on the road..
sounds like a lot more than just fluff.
So sad really , we can just hope blizzard are going to make Titan with destructible environment with trinity + raids etc .
The combat imo will just be very stale. The trinity provided the developers more opportunities for depth. I agree with some people saying regardless the mobs will just go for the squishy no matter what.
I've only really raided in wow but some of the hard modes(or normal,even dungeons) over the years wow has created have been very interesting. People say trinity is boring. I say it isn't. Yea the first dungeons anyone goes into might be because .. learning, but the depth a developer has at its disposal is alot. Yes the tanks press 1 to taunt every 10 sec.. the healers watch the tanks health bar.. and the dps press 1234 1234. But with great encounters you can add the 'ever person is responsible for their life or w/e' .. crap falling from the skies.. can't cast at random times .. blah blah.. if the dps were stupid and stood in fire.. yeah.. healers brought em back up.. but if it kept happening.. more depth.. the healers had to watch their mana bar.. The trinity creates great combat.. and destructibility WITH the trinity would just be awesome. Imo them taking out the trinity is a mistake. I hope i'm wrong.
If they wanted to just get rid of old tropes like taunt for agro then why didnt they just stick with that why did they need to ditch the trinity to the point of not requiring a tank and dedicated healer?
Having an intelligent AI does not mean you can't do a great tank, you just have to put just as much effort into the tank archetype as you do into the AI.
Tank being damage soaker they can do it a number of ways that are interesting and engaging they don't have to just be beefy character sheets with a taunt skill. They could have skills to block hits/projectiles for those behind them, group utility that redirects damage from your group onto the tank, interupts that keep nasty spells and skills from launching at other players and snares/lasoo/roots that position the mob to force it to attack them whether it likes to or not.
Forcing everyone to take care of their own survivabililty can be done through monster mechanics without needing to make every character in your game into an overpowered hybrid. Everyone being overpowered hybrids will destroy the need for cooperation between players dumbing down the difficulty of the game into nothing but a zerg fest on all scales. No one will talk to eachother, there wont be real guilds formed and the designers will have a hard time making the content hard/diverse without alienating even more of thier population than with the trinity system. So they just wont have difficulty/diversity on a scale larger than a party(no raids). If there are raids they will be faceroll easy for veteran players granting 0 staying power.
When good players are granted the ability to mix mash so much they will have no problem finding ways to make the game easier than they want it to be, players should not have to artifically make the game challenging they wont stick around. Players should have to bring 3-4 roles tank healer support/cc dps to a fight making those roles work in synergy is much harder than every player being a hybrid and just taking care of themselves never even needing communication or knowledge sharing, big community builders.
Your argument makes the assumption that the only way to program combat is through the trinity.
I dont know if EQN will be better but we will never find it if you cant get past the trinity as the only mechanic.
Perhaps its what you enjoy, which is fine but that opinion cant stand as fact. You also make assumptions such as characters being over powered hybrids. We dont know how character builds will be by interpreting videos and blogs.
This game is going to be for those who want something different. There are a ton of trinity based games out. If you like them or not is your issue. But I dont see the point in arguing for a standard trinity when its obviously not going to be in the game. You still have ArcheAge.
BTW.. Think about this for a second..
If TAUNT is removed from the game, how do squishy pet classes live if pet can't hold agro? Are pets even in the game? Assuming they are and cant' tank, they are only DPS pets, which means it's a dps zerg to kill the mob before he kills me.... RIGHT?