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So it's a game with no levels...
Justsomenoob
Member UncommonPosts: 880
Since people are busy talking about the graphic style, started this thread to talk about this unusual mechanic.
There's no character levels. That in itself isn't so strange, we've played games where we raised skill numbers in place of levels ala UO.
But it doesn't sound like the game has that either.
We know that we'll have to obtain classes and that part of your character advancement will be getting more classes so you have more abilities available to you. Apparently you'll be able to combine them, not just in picking 8 abilities from amongst the classes you have but in actually creating new abilities through combinations as well. I think I heard something about unlocking higher tiers of abilities as well.
Probably will find more out about this from the panels tomorrow but it sounds like a unique kind of character advancement.
But at any rate, it's advancement that doesn't seem to involve raising numbers on a character sheet at all which is pretty interesting.
Comments
Yes, it sounds like they are going to tie exploration into your actual character development pretty deeply. I would just guess that you have to find hidden lore(below the world through digging, etc.) to reveal secret knowledge/spells/abilities, maybe even classes directly.
I'm all for getting away from levels for a while. I'd rather be able to just play a game instead of worrying about having to grind out levels just to walk through the next area without getting one shotted because it's level restricted content.
If you listened to the comment you will have heard they said they have taken the best things form other games and also from their own and added or improved on them using the holy grail 1 to 4 so there should be no complaints about them taking the good and using it from what ever game unless you have the sole rights to this then what's the issue?
Asbo
Except The Secret World had levels. I know, you were probably one of those dooped into believing it didnt, but fact is, you earned XP, and when your XP bar filled, you gained a level. The called them Skill points. If you see the difference there, please try to explain it to me. One has an xp bar that fills up, the other... it has an xp bar that fills up. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.
Im willing to give it a shot. Im a big fan of vertical progression, not horizontal. I like watching numbers go up, and it gives me a sense of getting more powerful. But this is a unique system. It does exactly what they set out to do, it changes the way we see stats. This isnt your D & D stat sheet game, and Im interested in seeing where it leads. I just hope theres still some form of vertical progression as well, even if its just unlocking higher tiered abilities that are more powerful.
You and me both.
Endgame will actually begin upon completion of character creation. Imagine being able to make a character and participate I nthe raid on that epic Iron Golem they showed, instead of being forced to endure endless grinding to get to the cool stuff.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
This is what I'm thinking too.
There'll be some increase in power through acquisition of more (and probably more powerful) skills, but the power curve may be more shallow than we're used to between a new toon and a maxxed out one.
...or maybe it'll be a huge difference and the "good" stuff does 50 times the damage, who knows. Probably not though.
I'm kind of the opposite. I'm open to any new ideas that can eliminate "levels" as a measure of progress. There are many other ways to develop a character and I'm excited to see what they've come up with.
Did you really just say "epic Iron Golem?" Please tell me what is epic about a cartoon made of metal?
Another thing to note:
The best aspect of this system IMO: No 2 identical ways to acquire the new character class that means you'll be unable to just Google it. A true testament to complete freedom this game will offer. It actually is a breath of fresh air to finally see a game company force people to explore instead of hand holding.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
I am very excited about this feature, the whole "finding" classes in the world and making your own by mixing and matching.
However I can't help but think the internet will ruin the fun and excitement of people "finding" these on their own, with all the websites thees days dedicated to mmo secrets and everything a lot of people will resort to those, and probably a lot of groups that will expect you to have this or that and what not.
IMO They need to develop a system whereby finding your "classes" isn't static, so poeple can't say "Oh you want to be a paladin? Go to the npc located at loc xxx," but instead the way you gain classes is more random and the npc's that give them aren't static and can move aorund.
This would mean it'd be more random and exciting for you to find one because it happens while you're playing rather then you specifically seeking it out.
It was a huge metal monster destroying a house by swinging its fist. Whether that's epic or not, who knows.
But we can do that with anything. I mean if people are talking about teaming up to kill a dragon, I can say "What's epic about an overgrown lizard with wings?"
You cannot explain an impression. You cannot see it but I considered the Iron golem quite impressive. I liked the graphics and found it a pleasing style and you cannot explain how people perceive art. It is not something you can quantify or calculate.
Which is astonishingly terrible game design.
All the good MMOs have plenty of 'cool stuff' to do while leveling. A game where you start super powerful is one I really have no interest in playing. Short level times = bad retention. Will no level times = no retention? theres nothing to really aspire too that way.
Levels is one way to simulate that someone becomes better from experience.
It is a simple system and probably also the worst and most unrealistic possible. It splits up the playerbase and make most of the content gray after a few weeks of playing the game.
There are in fact a lot more pen and paper roleplaying games without levels than with (good examples are Runequest, Warhammer fantasy RPG, Shadowrun, Vampire and Cyberpunk).
So getting rid of them was a good idea, it opens up for a more interesting character development and customization possibilities games with levels just can't have.
The question however is how the actual mechanics works. The worst case scenario is probably if they let gear together with the promised class unlocks handle the whole thing.
Another possibility is that they recycle one of the earlier leveless MMOs mechanics, like UO or TSW. Personally do I think all current leveless MMO mechanics lacks the depth a RPG game should have.
I hope however they use a similar system to Shadowrun. You slowly gain points you buy upgrades for. In fact EQ 1 & 2s use of AAs could be tweaked into a similar system if they put some more work and better customization choices in it. It would still keep the playing field a lot more even than the regular levelsystem while provide upgrades as you play.
I always though that a real sandbox shouldn't have level, because a sandbox should allow you to go anywhere at anytime. I was actually surprised that SOE went there though. This is a major departure from the "norm".
Beside, this people should really keep in mind that "no level", doesn't mean "no progression". Minecraft (before adding XP) had progression through crafting material. Here we will have "find more classes and skills", but we might also have crafting involved and other not-yet-mentioned systems that provide progression.
You guys really should try some pen and paper RPGs (besides D&D/Pathfinder). Shadowrun or the new Star wars game are both good choices.
Yes, a character should slowly grow while you play him/her but that have nothing at all to do with levels.
And Wow have short level times and many people played it for many years while Lineage 2 have very long time and still flopped in the west so I don't exactly believe in that math.
I don't see SOE making a game with no progression.
Any sandbox with some PvE in it (as EQN have plenty of) will still have hard and easy areas. I am pretty sure that noobs that gets into the hard areas will still be massacred.
Areas wont gray out but that doesn't mean that it is a great idea to venture in dangerous places with a fresh character.
A RuneQuest/Chaosium system would be wonderful.
I somewhat fear they will have a lame gear-item based levelling system, which is entirely the wrong way to progress I think.
When I read fantasy novels, there are a couple of magic items in the world but that's it. Heroes are made by what they do, their abilities, and what actions they take. Having a helmet that gives you +4 Int, +34 hit points, and +13 encumbrance is just silly. I think the focus on gear is one of the single biggest mistakes of the current crop of MMOs.
Gear doesn't make for exciting stories. Sure, the occasional bit is fine. But it should be about what you do, what you have learned, and who you encounter.
It sounds like you're just venting, but if you really DO want the difference explained to you, here it is:
Gaining a level is different in every game. But generally, gaining a level improves everything about your character. You hit harder, you run faster, you are stronger, you have more skills, etc. Or some combination of all those. If you gain a level, you punch harder and may get an additional skill such as "kick".
Gaining a skill means you now have an extra skill. That's it. You can now do something different. It doesn't give you more power, it gives you more vesatility. (which usually means you're can do more things, and actually are more powerful in that way). If you gain a "kick" skill, you still punch exactly the same as before. (Though being able to both kick and punch is better than just punch)
That's the difference. As far TSW goes, you are both right and wrong. You're right in that there were hidden levels. You're wrong in that they had anything to do with your skills. TSW's levels were based off the gear you were wearing. If you wore (i forget the terminology) Rank 5 gear, your skill hit like a Rank 5, if you wore Rank 1 gear, your skills hit with the exact same strength as when you first logged into the game. No matter how many skills you had. (There were a couple of other things that impact it, but gear was the biggest).
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I'm totally aware of that, but it's not really hard and easy areas as mostly hard and easy monsters (and monster density). I just didn't think that was worth mentioning.
Same here. I'm interested in what kind of system they plan to use instead.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre